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nephillymike
12 yards per carry just ain't good enough around here!
Rick
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Dec 10 2017, 07:35 PM) *
12 yards per carry just ain't good enough around here!

I know, I have to really wonder about the decisions either not running the ball or not running Ajayi more. The guy is a beast. Blount was sluggish yesterday not hitting holes. Why the hell won't Pedersen run Ajayi more???

This is the one major thing that concerns me about Pedey. He has the Andy feel where he'll get into the big game and screw it up because of crap like this.
Joegrane
Maybe they don't like Ajayi's attitude and so feel a need to keep the # of reps competitive.

QUOTE (Rick @ Dec 11 2017, 06:38 AM) *
I know, I have to really wonder about the decisions either not running the ball or not running Ajayi more. The guy is a beast. Blount was sluggish yesterday not hitting holes. Why the hell won't Pedersen run Ajayi more???

This is the one major thing that concerns me about Pedey. He has the Andy feel where he'll get into the big game and screw it up because of crap like this.

CT_Eagle
There was no reason for the Eagles to be so pass heavy yesterday.

I don't think the Eagles ever trailed by more than 1 TD. When Ajayi did get carries, he was productive. What really stunned me is that when Foles came in, there was plenty of time on the clock to run a balanced attack. Instead, Pederson called 5 straight passes. The final pass run ratio was well north of 60%. There was no need for that yesterday.
Pila
Wentz unparalleled success on 3rd-and-forever is unlikely to be duplicated with Foles. The team's hopes will increasingly ride on better success on early downs - I think this will have Pedey commit, or at least - emphasize - more to the run game. He has tendencies, but he isn't stupid. Can't take those early downs for granted any more.
Joegrane
I hear you but teams will bring a S into the box to force Foles to beat them. Pedey almost certainly trusts Foles to do so.

T Smith deserves some props for his big game. He had 100yds.


QUOTE (Pila @ Dec 11 2017, 12:42 PM) *
Wentz unparalleled success on 3rd-and-forever is unlikely to be duplicated with Foles. The team's hopes will increasingly ride on better success on early downs - I think this will have Pedey commit, or at least - emphasize - more to the run game. He has tendencies, but he isn't stupid. Can't take those early downs for granted any more.

The Franchise
QUOTE (Rick @ Dec 11 2017, 06:38 AM) *
This is the one major thing that concerns me about Pedey. He has the Andy feel where he'll get into the big game and screw it up because of crap like this.


It almost seems at times like he gets caught up in the moment when we're having success and forgets we have a running game. It isn't a hopeless habit like with Andy. However, there's no excuse to throw Foles right in there and have him pass 5 times right away.
Phits
Foles is a QB. He throws the ball. The success of our running game is predicated on the QB being able to successfully pass the ball. If you don't trust your QB to do that you should find another one.
Reality Fan
Only on an Eagles fan site could find fans saying "sometimes he forgets about the running game" about a team that is 2nd in rushing attempts in the entire NFL.
Joegrane
Anyone have the stats for the first half of games. The Eagles have been able to run the ball late due to big leads.

QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Dec 11 2017, 06:07 PM) *
Only on an Eagles fan site could find fans saying "sometimes he forgets about the running game" about a team that is 2nd in rushing attempts in the entire NFL.

The Franchise
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Dec 11 2017, 07:07 PM) *
Only on an Eagles fan site could find fans saying "sometimes he forgets about the running game" about a team that is 2nd in rushing attempts in the entire NFL.


Only a hopeless Reid-apologist could continue to argue after almost two decades what almost every other fan seems to understand has some basic merit to it - that Reid passed way too goddam much, and his protege' has the same tendencies, though not as bad.

We saw it again yesterday, in the game overall, and most notably immediately after being forced to give the ball to his backup, down by 1 point in a huge road game. It's real, we aren't all just making this stuff up.

*Also, this year because of our success we happen to be running more overall plays than everyone else in the league, and Wentz scrambles more than almost any other QB (as in, called pass plays). So simple volume is cherry-picking stats - but yeah.....
eagleaddict
QUOTE (Joegrane @ Dec 11 2017, 01:12 PM) *
I hear you but teams will bring a S into the box to force Foles to beat them. Pedey almost certainly trusts Foles to do so.

T Smith deserves some props for his big game. He had 100yds.

It seemed that he had way more targets this week due to coverage. Maybe we were trying to exploit a perceived weakness or Jeffery was their focus since Ertz was out. I'm still not a fan of T Smith -->off-season upgrade needed IMO.
CT_Eagle
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Dec 12 2017, 12:07 AM) *
Only on an Eagles fan site could find fans saying "sometimes he forgets about the running game" about a team that is 2nd in rushing attempts in the entire NFL.


You do know the meaning of the word sometimes? Yesterday was one of those instances.
Rick
QUOTE (Joegrane @ Dec 11 2017, 12:14 PM) *
Maybe they don't like Ajayi's attitude and so feel a need to keep the # of reps competitive.

What attitude? The one that was reported by like one person and the attitude nobody else has heard anything about since?

And yeah, makes sense to punish him because, well, you know, he's doing such a horrible job running the ball...

SMH...
Reality Fan
QUOTE (The Franchise @ Dec 11 2017, 07:02 PM) *
Only a hopeless Reid-apologist could continue to argue after almost two decades what almost every other fan seems to understand has some basic merit to it - that Reid passed way too goddam much, and his protege' has the same tendencies, though not as bad.

We saw it again yesterday, in the game overall, and most notably immediately after being forced to give the ball to his backup, down by 1 point in a huge road game. It's real, we aren't all just making this stuff up.

*Also, this year because of our success we happen to be running more overall plays than everyone else in the league, and Wentz scrambles more than almost any other QB (as in, called pass plays). So simple volume is cherry-picking stats - but yeah.....



lol...I love it....the facts say your are wrong but what are facts......the only team that runs the ball more is the Jags but pointing out that FAct is silly to the Reid hater. How anyone not an idiot could argue in the face of that is stunning. But lets look further into it.....the Eagles are ranked 26th...yes 26th in pass play percentage.....mind you earlier in the year they had 2 games where they barely ran the ball so that skewed the numbers even more for all you "they have big leads and run the ball more" folks. Now onto the other stupidity....they pass more in the first half.......they are situationally ranked 24th for rass/run in the first half of games.

How is that for cherry picking stats? The difference is one of us actually looks at facts and numbers and the other relies on bullshit.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/passing-play-pct
https://www.sharpfootballstats.com/situatio...tios--off-.html

And Wentz is actually 4th among QBs in rushing attempts and only averages 2 more a game than Kirk Cousins who does not run at all so you can pocket that silliness as well. Hell, Alex Smith only has 11 more attempts than Wentz.

I know, facts suck.

I can understand not agreeing with his use of his RB personnel although, at 11-2 it seems silly, but saying he does not run the ball enough?
That is just plain stupid.

So, yeah....only in Philly.
Pila
QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Dec 12 2017, 02:27 AM) *
You do know the meaning of the word sometimes? Yesterday was one of those instances.

I'm incredibly astute to play-calling-

When they throw an incomplete pass,or some shitty behind the los pass that goes for negative yardage, my intuition says they should have ran it there! And I scream and curse those idiots with headphones on for being so stupid. How could they not just fucking run it there!?

Then when a run goes nowhere, I - again - tap into my superior intuition to declare that the wrong fucking time to fucking run it - even the grandmother I never had knew that shit was actually coming then. "Oh, so NOW you run it! Holy fucking Agholor! Throw a simply slant to Nelson there! You suck!"

If only those fucks would listen to my infinite and flawless intuition after each play!
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Pila @ Dec 12 2017, 12:55 PM) *
I'm incredibly astute to play-calling-

When they throw an incomplete or a shitty behind the los pass that goes for negative yardage, my intuition says they should have ran it there! And I scream and curse those idiots with headphones on for being so stupid.

Then when a run goes nowhere I - again - tap into my superior intuition to declare that the wrong fucking time to fucking run it - even the grandmother I never had knee that shit was actually coming then.

If only those fucks would listen to my infinite and flawless intuition after each play!


Exactly.....they are such dumbasses SOMETIMES.....lol
The Franchise
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Dec 12 2017, 11:00 AM) *
lol...I love it....the facts say your are wrong but what are facts......the only team that runs the ball more is the Jags but pointing out that FAct is silly to the Reid hater. How anyone not an idiot could argue in the face of that is stunning. But lets look further into it.....the Eagles are ranked 26th...yes 26th in pass play percentage.....mind you earlier in the year they had 2 games where they barely ran the ball so that skewed the numbers even more for all you "they have big leads and run the ball more" folks. Now onto the other stupidity....they pass more in the first half.......they are situationally ranked 24th for rass/run in the first half of games.

How is that for cherry picking stats? The difference is one of us actually looks at facts and numbers and the other relies on bullshit.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/passing-play-pct
https://www.sharpfootballstats.com/situatio...tios--off-.html

And Wentz is actually 4th among QBs in rushing attempts and only averages 2 more a game than Kirk Cousins who does not run at all so you can pocket that silliness as well. Hell, Alex Smith only has 11 more attempts than Wentz.

I know, facts suck.

I can understand not agreeing with his use of his RB personnel although, at 11-2 it seems silly, but saying he does not run the ball enough?
That is just plain stupid.

So, yeah....only in Philly.


laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Trying to correct the Reid apologist with facts can often result in childish, incoherent rants. Exhibit A.

-I mention that Wentz scrambles more than almost any other QB - you point out that he's 4th in scrambles, and act like you're making a point about something.

-I mention that this skews what can be considered called pass plays vs. run plays - and you provide a link that shows teams having two numbers that equal 100% - and it's done in descending order too, really cool!

-I mention that since we've had offensive success, we've run more offensive plays than any other team in the league, many by a significant amount. Therefore, simply using volume is intellectually dishonest and cherry-picking stats, as you tried to do earlier. You posted another link about percentages that had nothing to do with anything.

Overall his play calling has been fine. Sometimes he seems to get going and fires a bunch of passes off. Passing 5 times in a row after Foles went in wasn't wise, as pretty much everyone here seems to agree. Just go lie down, take a deep breath, and come back when you're ready to move on.
CT_Eagle
QUOTE (Pila @ Dec 12 2017, 06:55 PM) *
I'm incredibly astute to play-calling-

When they throw an incomplete pass,or some shitty behind the los pass that goes for negative yardage, my intuition says they should have ran it there! And I scream and curse those idiots with headphones on for being so stupid. How could they not just fucking run it there!?

Then when a run goes nowhere, I - again - tap into my superior intuition to declare that the wrong fucking time to fucking run it - even the grandmother I never had knew that shit was actually coming then. "Oh, so NOW you run it! Holy fucking Agholor! Throw a simply slant to Nelson there! You suck!"

If only those fucks would listen to my infinite and flawless intuition after each play!


I find myself doing the same thing at times although I usually have an idea of what I think should be done prior to the play instead of just commenting afterwards. I usually wait until after the game to see if my in game ranting was backed up by the numbers. This week, my in-game rantings were. The Eagles called pass plays 66% of the time which is very high. Especially when you consider that the Eagles were never down by more than 1 TD. You usually see that high of a pass ratio when a team is trailing big.

Pederson has, imho, done a good job of calling a balanced ratio this year. Especially after the first two games. The LA game just happened to be game where the ratio got out of whack and there really was no reason for it. Ajayi had a 5.2 YPC average on the day.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (The Franchise @ Dec 12 2017, 01:40 PM) *
laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Trying to correct the Reid apologist with facts can often result in childish, incoherent rants. Exhibit A.

-I mention that Wentz scrambles more than almost any other QB - you point out that he's 4th in scrambles, and act like you're making a point about something.

-I mention that this skews what can be considered called pass plays vs. run plays - and you provide a link that shows teams having two numbers that equal 100% - and it's done in descending order too, really cool!

-I mention that since we've had offensive success, we've run more offensive plays than any other team in the league, many by a significant amount. Therefore, simply using volume is intellectually dishonest and cherry-picking stats, as you tried to do earlier. You posted another link about percentages that had nothing to do with anything.

Overall his play calling has been fine. Sometimes he seems to get going and fires a bunch of passes off. Passing 5 times in a row after Foles went in wasn't wise, as pretty much everyone here seems to agree. Just go lie down, take a deep breath, and come back when you're ready to move on.


You really are a peach. If you would use common sense you would realize that your "volume" argument holds no water because the percentages aka run pass ratio as well as the situational pass run ratio refutes your point. Yes, they run more plays but they also run more at all times including the first half than 2/3 of the rest of the league. So you are either intellectually dishonest or deficient...you pick.

And Wentz was 4th but not by a margin of 3-4 times a game. He has 64 rushes but it is cute how you love to trot out the volume item for all but that part. You are the king of cherry picking. I merely use facts and season long stats to extablish the actual picture.

Now, as far as passing 5 times with Foles? You could go wither way. If you and your gang of coaches thinks that they should have run the ball what do you think the Rams were thinking? What were they prepared best to defend? Oh...yeah....

I had moved on until I read the stupidity that the Eagles don't run the ball enough.
The Franchise
QUOTE
And Wentz was 4th but not by a margin of 3-4 times a game. He has 64 rushes but it is cute how you love to trot out the volume item for all but that part. You are the king of cherry picking. I merely use facts and season long stats to extablish the actual picture.


Right now we have 454 pass attempts and 407 rush attempts, about 53-47%. However, Wentz and Foles have 72 combined rushes - assuming 65 of them were called passes and not designed scrambles, that brings passing attempts up to 519 and rushing attempts down to 342. Now it's 60-40% - see how math works? laugh.gif

QUOTE
I had moved on until I read the stupidity that the Eagles don't run the ball enough.


You read, correctly, that sometimes he forgets he has a running game. I don't even have a problem with 60-40 in this offense, but sometimes he does. And when he does, it will be pointed out here.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (The Franchise @ Dec 12 2017, 03:50 PM) *
Right now we have 454 pass attempts and 407 rush attempts, about 53-47%. However, Wentz and Foles have 72 combined rushes - assuming 65 of them were called passes and not designed scrambles, that brings passing attempts up to 519 and rushing attempts down to 342. Now it's 60-40% - see how math works? laugh.gif



You read, correctly, that sometimes he forgets he has a running game. I don't even have a problem with 60-40 in this offense, but sometimes he does. And when he does, it will be pointed out here.




You are truly amazing. First, the Eagles run RPOs much like many other teams in the league. Second, you can say the same for every team in the league. I suggest you look at other teams numbers before you look anymore foolish. The pats and the Steelers both have over 100 more passing attempts BEFORE you remove Brady (21) or Ben(24) rushing attempts. I suppose they have dumb Reid guys running them too. See how that math works?... ohmy.gif

Keep going...it is easy to samck this silly crap around....you make shit up and I provide the facts to refute it. This stuff is not hard to find....you just need to actually look before you open your mouth. At the very least this informs the rest of the board.

Pila
QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Dec 12 2017, 06:43 PM) *
I find myself doing the same thing at times although I usually have an idea of what I think should be done prior to the play instead of just commenting afterwards. I usually wait until after the game to see if my in game ranting was backed up by the numbers. This week, my in-game rantings were. The Eagles called pass plays 66% of the time which is very high. Especially when you consider that the Eagles were never down by more than 1 TD. You usually see that high of a pass ratio when a team is trailing big.

Pederson has, imho, done a good job of calling a balanced ratio this year. Especially after the first two games. The LA game just happened to be game where the ratio got out of whack and there really was no reason for it. Ajayi had a 5.2 YPC average on the day.
I think what I was trying to point out is that we are much better at keeping a scoresheet of the success rates when the play call isn't what we wanted and had a negative result than the success rates of when it succeeds despite our intuition.

Besides - the run/pass statistic is really incredibly limited in the scope of play calling. I think even us fans have come to appreciate that the entire dynamic of tactics and scheming isn't really just between handing a ball off or tossing it.

I find the persistence in the whole argument over pass/run ratios outdated (and tired) considering how many pass plays are throws behind the line, or quick, short routes, and how many runs are misdirectional and/or option play relying on immediate reads of specific defenders. I'm just not sure that old argument still applies as much as it used to in terms of it being purely looked at between a run/pass dichotomy.
The Franchise
QUOTE (Pila @ Dec 12 2017, 04:36 PM) *
I think what I was trying to point out is that we are much better at keeping a scoresheet of the success rates when the play call isn't what we wanted and had a negative result than the success rates of when it succeeds despite our intuition.

Besides - the run/pass statistic is really incredibly limited in the scope of play calling. I think even us fans have come to appreciate that the entire dynamic of tactics and scheming isn't really just between handing a ball off or tossing it.

I find the persistence in the whole argument over pass/run ratios outdated (and tired) considering how many pass plays are throws behind the line, or quick, short routes, and how many runs are misdirectional and/or option play relying on immediate reads of specific defenders. I'm just not sure that old argument still applies as much as it used to in terms of it being purely looked at between a run/pass dichotomy.


It's impossible to have an intellectually honest conversation about this because, as we've seen on this thread, there are still a large number of Eagles fans who believe Reid infallible, and will freak out in automatic defense of him when anyone even suggests otherwise.

A 'balanced attack' to me is about not being predictable, and about sound situational play calling. These are things that Reid continues to fail miserably at to this day, along with clock management as well. Pederson has done a good job overall, and unlike Andy, seems to adjust when something doesn't work. Simply throwing out ideal pass/run ratios isn't relevant, as you say. And again, I don't even have a problem with our game plan this year apart from some individual mistakes - all I said was an obvious truth, that sometimes Pederson abandons the run when he shouldn't - and I was immediately declared a heretic. Unbelievable.
Phits
Perhaps that's why DP opted to pass when he was forced to insert his backup QB. Most would expect a heavy dose of running plays.


QUOTE (The Franchise @ Dec 12 2017, 05:14 PM) *
It's impossible to have an intellectually honest conversation about this because, as we've seen on this thread, there are still a large number of Eagles fans who believe Reid infallible, and will freak out in automatic defense of him when anyone even suggests otherwise.

A 'balanced attack' to me is about not being predictable, and about sound situational play calling. These are things that Reid continues to fail miserably at to this day, along with clock management as well. Pederson has done a good job overall, and unlike Andy, seems to adjust when something doesn't work. Simply throwing out ideal pass/run ratios isn't relevant, as you say. And again, I don't even have a problem with our game plan this year apart from some individual mistakes - all I said was an obvious truth, that sometimes Pederson abandons the run when he shouldn't - and I was immediately declared a heretic. Unbelievable.

Reality Fan
QUOTE (The Franchise @ Dec 12 2017, 05:14 PM) *
It's impossible to have an intellectually honest conversation about this because, as we've seen on this thread, there are still a large number of Eagles fans who believe Reid infallible, and will freak out in automatic defense of him when anyone even suggests otherwise.

A 'balanced attack' to me is about not being predictable, and about sound situational play calling. These are things that Reid continues to fail miserably at to this day, along with clock management as well. Pederson has done a good job overall, and unlike Andy, seems to adjust when something doesn't work. Simply throwing out ideal pass/run ratios isn't relevant, as you say. And again, I don't even have a problem with our game plan this year apart from some individual mistakes - all I said was an obvious truth, that sometimes Pederson abandons the run when he shouldn't - and I was immediately declared a heretic. Unbelievable.


While I did like Reid while he was here I don't think him infallible at all. He was a good prepper and a good CEO. He undervalued WR way too much for me and did not replace coaches well. He also was seduced by the long ball later in his career.

I actually was not referring to your post, it was Rick's that sparked my research. You just jumped in for the ride.

I merely look at all the teams, their rankings, their run pass ratio and how that is reflected situationally. I think some see DP as a clone of Reid and that is understandable but he is really not. He might be more like an early Reid in some regards but it stops there.

The Franchise
QUOTE (Phits @ Dec 12 2017, 06:00 PM) *
Most would expect a heavy dose of running plays.


Well we can all agree that's for damn sure.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Pila @ Dec 12 2017, 12:55 PM) *
I'm incredibly astute to play-calling-

When they throw an incomplete pass,or some shitty behind the los pass that goes for negative yardage, my intuition says they should have ran it there! And I scream and curse those idiots with headphones on for being so stupid. How could they not just fucking run it there!?

Then when a run goes nowhere, I - again - tap into my superior intuition to declare that the wrong fucking time to fucking run it - even the grandmother I never had knew that shit was actually coming then. "Oh, so NOW you run it! Holy fucking Agholor! Throw a simply slant to Nelson there! You suck!"

If only those fucks would listen to my infinite and flawless intuition after each play!


I agree with this.

My hindsight play calling is HOF caliber!

Although, I have an annoying habit of calling the play once I see the presnap look and it annoys my sons when I say run right, or pass down the seam etc that turns out to be the call and is successful. You count the guys in the box, take note at the depth in the box and see how the DBs are playing and call it accordingly. Not that difficult in general terms. That is why Pedey getting the play call in early, combined with Wentz's brains makes our offense so tough. You can make adjustments that are valuable. Nabby and Andy didn't have that talent or luxury. I'm guessing Foles will get that latitude. Hopefully he can make the throws after the reads.
Joegrane
Coaches today have the ability to talk to the QB until near the end of the play clock, no? That's better than having to use signals.

QUOTE (nephillymike @ Dec 12 2017, 09:38 PM) *
I agree with this.

My hindsight play calling is HOF caliber!

Although, I have an annoying habit of calling the play once I see the presnap look and it annoys my sons when I say run right, or pass down the seam etc that turns out to be the call and is successful. You count the guys in the box, take note at the depth in the box and see how the DBs are playing and call it accordingly. Not that difficult in general terms. That is why Pedey getting the play call in early, combined with Wentz's brains makes our offense so tough. You can make adjustments that are valuable. Nabby and Andy didn't have that talent or luxury. I'm guessing Foles will get that latitude. Hopefully he can make the throws after the reads.

nephillymike
QUOTE (Joegrane @ Dec 12 2017, 11:13 PM) *
Coaches today have the ability to talk to the QB until near the end of the play clock, no? That's better than having to use signals.

Up until 15 seconds are left.

I think they always had that since the earpiece came in play.
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