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Birdwatcher
Everyone is questioning Howie regarding these two guys, but why doesn't anyone point out that Douglass was the evaluator and had to have a lot to do with those picks. Howie did point out that they look at 3 different rosters, 46, 53, and 63, so with that in mind Gibson and Pumphrey are clearly 53's and not 46's at this point. For all we know they could have expected these two to be long term projects, who aren't ready now, but with a year in the system could become something. With 4th and 5th round picks are you really looking for immediate impact? I think that maybe they are finally taking a long term view and think these two can be developed into something in future seasons, so I am not all that surprised they were kept...for now anyway.
Zero
It's going to take a couple of years to find out if Douglas is any good. I'm getting tired of hearing people complain that the Eagles have sucked at personnel for a long time. Although that may be true, they've brought in a new guy who is highly regarded around the league and supposedly given him power ... how much is what we don't know.
nephillymike
The problem is, in the NFL, with injuries, the 53 become the 46 in a hurry. It is then that these decisions impact the standings.

However, theoretically, with better players than Pumphrey and Gibson on the PS in Marshall and Treggs, you could put those two in the game after they are called up from the PS rather than the two who don't belong. This part may work, provided they don't get poached off the PS.
Reality Fan
The other question I have is how good Douglas is. He may be good but no one made a huge effort to keep him at his previous stops.
Zero
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Sep 4 2017, 11:40 AM) *
The other question I have is how good Douglas is. He may be good but no one made a huge effort to keep him at his previous stops.

Valid point, but moving from Baltimore to Chicago was a promotion as was his move to Philadelphia. I don't think either stop had an opening that would equate to his new position at each stop. A couple of years to find out if the hire was good or just one more kick in the balls for fans.
Joegrane
The decision to keep Pumphrey on the 53 instead of trying to sneak him through waivers and onto the practice squad has received criticism. I was among the surprised. I was quite unimpressed.

I never saw any of his tape and I don't know how to compare the speed of the FCS players to the NFL. So I did a search of the draft reports for "Pump." The bold highlighting below is mine.

The following are selected passages. His 40 time was 4.48, one of the fastest among 2017 RBs. Notice the reports of his ability to make defenders miss and his toughness. I saw none of that in the preseason. Notice also the mention of a hamstring injury.

There has to be some reason that a guy we saw was SO different than what scouts and reporters described. Could it be that he was dinged up and lost his explosiveness?


12. DONNEL PUMPHREY, San Diego State (5-8, 176, 4.46, 4-5): Counting bowl games, he finished third in all-time rushing behind Ron Dayne and Tony Dorsett. “Well, everybody’s going to have doubts on his size, and I do, too,” one scout said. “I’ve never seen a 178-pound guy never get hurt. That guy is hard to tackle. Ask that big pretty guy from UConn (safety Obi Melifonwu) about the Senior Bowl when he planted his helmet right in his chest and ran over his (expletive). Might be the toughest guy in the draft. I don’t know what you do with him but I’ll be surprised if he’s there in the fifth (round).” Carried a phenomenal 1,059 times for 6,405 (6.0) and 62 TDs to go with 99 receptions for 1,039. Wonderlic of 21. [ fairly average score] Just five reps on the bench. “He’s a midget but is he exciting,” a third scout said. From Las Vegas. http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nf...back/100608826/

Pumphrey has shown talent, and the ability to make special plays. Teams will be looking at Pumphrey between the third and fifth round, knowing he has the chance to be an impact starter in the NFL from day one.

NFL teams such as the Giants, Vikings, Colts, and Eagles will be looking for a running back. If they wish to address other positions earlier Pumphrey is the perfect late day option. His is stock is on the rise and will only get better when he faces other top prospects during the draft process.
http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/nfl-dra...man-race-110616

08/01/17 - RB Donnel Pumphrey sat out Tuesday's live-contact practice. The rookie tweaked a hamstring on Sunday. It's not known how long he'll be sidelined.
03/26/17 - San Diego State Pro day: As the NCAA's all-time leading rusher (6,405 yards), as well as a Senior Bowl and combine standout (4.48 in the 40-yard dash), scouts already knew that the Aztecs' Donnel Pumphrey was a special runner. During Thursday's pro day, he focused more on his receiving skills, catching passes out of the backfield and as a returner. The 5-foot-8, 176-pound Pumphrey looked comfortable catching the ball, extending to pluck a couple of tough passes, easing concerns about his ability to project as a true changeup back at the next level. Following Thursday's workout -....-- Pumphrey shared that he has already met with representatives from the Cardinals, Cowboys, Lions, Chargers and Jets. - Rob Rang, NFLDraftScout.com
03/04/17 - 2017 NFL Combine, Day 3 Winners: Donnel Pumphrey: The diminutive running back out of San Diego State is going to be a steal for someone, and he hinted at why on Friday. Pumphrey, who led college football in rushing yards with 2,133 last season, ran a 4.48 40-yard dash. Benching five reps of 225 isn’t great (no lie: I saw Pete Prisco rip off five reps before he ate breakfast and without warming up on Friday), but no one’s drafting him for his raw power. He’s getting picked because of his explosiveness and versatility, which he showed at the combine. Ultimately, he’s going to be a tremendous complementary runner who provides major playmaking potential for some franchise. - Will Brinson, CBSSports.com
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dspro...7&genpos=RB

Name: Donnel Pumphrey
Positives: Pumphrey may not be a household name. He plays on the west coast and at a smaller school, so his exposure to the masses is minimal. If you have not seen him play, please take the time to find a game and watch him, because he is a lot of fun to watch. He has excellent quickness, explosive speed and balance. He is elusive in space and has the ability to make defenders look silly when trying to tackle him. Pumphrey is a water bug out on the football field. He has the ability to start and stop as well as change direction while maintaining his speed. He is an advanced runner from a mental aspect. He shows good vision and shows the ability to set up his runs from a timing and patience aspect.
...As much as I like watching him on film, I worry about him handling the physicality of the NFL. I think realistically, he should probably be a day 3 type of pick.
http://www.nepatriotsdraft.com/2016/10/sco...umphrey-rb.html
Pila
There's no question that on the surface the insistence on holding on to Pumps and Drops appears to be ego driven, the cognitive dissonance of accepting glaring mistakes.

Unfortunately, it's going to take another season - minimum - for that to go from on-the-surface to proof of concept.
Joegrane
Those of you who are opposed to keeping Pump, how do you reconcile the glowing reviews of his college game and what we saw in the Preseason?
http://www.wingheads.com/index.php?showtop...t=0#entry303684

Were those scouts and reporters exaggerating?
Were they failing to compensate for the difference in speed at the NFL level
Could it be that Pump's early hamstring injury was a limiting factor?
Since he was expected by a number of people to go in the 4th or 5th round why would Howie think those other teams would not be interested now, especially when he had gotten nicked up earlier in camp?

If the injury was a major factor, then Howie was right to keep him. Even at full health he still was going to be a developmental guy, inactive most weeks. He has to get stronger as well as learn the offense.

QUOTE (Pila @ Sep 5 2017, 01:01 PM) *
There's no question that on the surface the insistence on holding on to Pumps and Drops appears to be ego driven, the cognitive dissonance of accepting glaring mistakes.

Unfortunately, it's going to take another season - minimum - for that to go from on-the-surface to proof of concept.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Joegrane @ Sep 5 2017, 03:31 PM) *
Those of you who are opposed to keeping Pump, how do you reconcile the glowing reviews of his college game and what we saw in the Preseason?
http://www.wingheads.com/index.php?showtop...t=0#entry303684

Were those scouts and reporters exaggerating?
Were they failing to compensate for the difference in speed at the NFL level
Could it be that Pump's early hamstring injury was a limiting factor?
Since he was expected by a number of people to go in the 4th or 5th round why would Howie think those other teams would not be interested now, especially when he had gotten nicked up earlier in camp?

If the injury was a major factor, then Howie was right to keep him. Even at full health he still was going to be a developmental guy, inactive most weeks. He has to get stronger as well as learn the offense.


What did we see in the preseason? He caught some passes and juked no one en route to immediately being tackled. He had one decent return because of blocking and he could not run through a hole that a mack truck could get through and he was constantly arm tackled. What preseason did you watch? And all those other teams saw exactly what we saw, a wasted pick. Howie kept him and Gibson out of ego.

I don't care what he did in his college days, he is not an NFL runner.
Joegrane
I agree entirely with your assessment of him in the preseason!

what are your thoughts on WHY he was SO different than what scouts and reporters were so impressed with last year and at the combine?

My point is that may be his hammy was still not healed and so he did not have the burst. At least I'm hoping.

QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Sep 5 2017, 05:45 PM) *
What did we see in the preseason? He caught some passes and juked no one en route to immediately being tackled. He had one decent return because of blocking and he could not run through a hole that a mack truck could get through and he was constantly arm tackled. What preseason did you watch? And all those other teams saw exactly what we saw, a wasted pick. Howie kept him and Gibson out of ego.

I don't care what he did in his college days, he is not an NFL runner.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Joegrane @ Sep 5 2017, 02:31 PM) *
Those of you who are opposed to keeping Pump, how do you reconcile the glowing reviews of his college game and what we saw in the Preseason?
http://www.wingheads.com/index.php?showtop...t=0#entry303684

Were those scouts and reporters exaggerating?
Were they failing to compensate for the difference in speed at the NFL level
Could it be that Pump's early hamstring injury was a limiting factor?
Since he was expected by a number of people to go in the 4th or 5th round why would Howie think those other teams would not be interested now, especially when he had gotten nicked up earlier in camp?

If the injury was a major factor, then Howie was right to keep him. Even at full health he still was going to be a developmental guy, inactive most weeks. He has to get stronger as well as learn the offense.


With the way this team coddles players, if he had a hang nail they would have sat him. He wasn't hurt.

Now maybe he was stumped by playbook overload, but that doesn't account for not being able to make a guy or two miss or break a tackle. That is instinct and skill and appears his is below an NFL caliber.

Not the end of the world if we stash him on the inactive list every week as long as we have somebody better on the PS. We have Marshall, and while he's not great he will suffice to jump up ahead of Pumphrey if a RB should get hurt.
Joegrane
I came to the same conclusion as you about "instinct and skill" but that conclusion does not fit with the raving reports from scouts and reporters!

QUOTE
That guy is hard to tackle.
Might be the toughest guy in the draft.
He’s a midget but is he exciting
going to be a steal for someone
he is a lot of fun to watch. He has excellent quickness, explosive speed and balance. He is elusive in space and has the ability to make defenders look silly when trying to tackle him. Pumphrey is a water bug out on the football field. He has the ability to start and stop as well as change direction while maintaining his speed. He is an advanced runner from a mental aspect.
http://www.wingheads.com/index.php?showtop...t=0#entry303684


I seriously doubt he was stumped by the playbook or anything else. They guy's Wonderlic was supposedly average for a RB--21.

I don't think a guy who ran for more yards in college than almost anyone in history has an "overload."

Fran Duffy and Greg Cosell breakdown the play of Donnel Pumphrey . I especially liked the quickness he showed while beating a LB in coverage at the combine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIRsFbIa_kM

Check out Pump making DBs miss as he ripped up Cal for 281 yards and 3 TDs!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fH6HoGQVn_I

QUOTE (nephillymike @ Sep 5 2017, 07:33 PM) *
...
Now maybe he was stumped by playbook overload, but that doesn't account for not being able to make a guy or two miss or break a tackle. That is instinct and skill and appears his is below an NFL caliber.
...
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Joegrane @ Sep 5 2017, 08:32 PM) *
I agree entirely with your assessment of him in the preseason!

what are your thoughts on WHY he was SO different than what scouts and reporters were so impressed with last year and at the combine?

My point is that may be his hammy was still not healed and so he did not have the burst. At least I'm hoping.


The difference is pretty simple actually. In college you play a team that has one or 2 guys who have NFL talent. Sometimes a ream will be an outlier like Bama et al who have several but for the most part you have a couple. Add to that the maturation of that talent in that some guys peak in high school, some in college and some in the NFL. It looks like Pumphrey is a college guy. Once that type gets to the next level where all the guys are faster, bigger and just plain better than 90% of the guys in college. He acknowledged that his moves from college were not working in the pros. pertty scary admission.
Joegrane
RF, did you check out Pump's highlights from the Cal game where he ran up >250 yards and 3TDs? Would you expect that player to not be able to contribute in the NFL as a 3rd down / slot guy?
http://www.wingheads.com/index.php?showtop...t=0#entry303738

I'm asking you to ignore what we saw in the preseason for a moment because he had a hamstring injury earlier in camp.

In light of the Cal performance is it reasonable to give him a year to develop physically?

After the preseason I thought they should have released him and tried to bring him back on the PS. After watching the video, reading the comments by college scouts and reporters and in light of the hammy I think the Eagles made a reasonable decision.

Remember he was clocked at 4.48 in the 40 at the combine. He is still going to be faster than almost all non-CB NFL defenders.

QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Sep 6 2017, 07:29 AM) *
The difference is pretty simple actually. In college you play a team that has one or 2 guys who have NFL talent. Sometimes a ream will be an outlier like Bama et al who have several but for the most part you have a couple. Add to that the maturation of that talent in that some guys peak in high school, some in college and some in the NFL. It looks like Pumphrey is a college guy. Once that type gets to the next level where all the guys are faster, bigger and just plain better than 90% of the guys in college. He acknowledged that his moves from college were not working in the pros. pertty scary admission.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Joegrane @ Sep 6 2017, 10:09 AM) *
RF, did you check out Pump's highlights from the Cal game where he ran up >250 yards and 3TDs? Would you expect that player to not be able to contribute in the NFL as a 3rd down / slot guy?
http://www.wingheads.com/index.php?showtop...t=0#entry303738

I'm asking you to ignore what we saw in the preseason for a moment because he had a hamstring injury earlier in camp.

In light of the Cal performance is it reasonable to give him a year to develop physically?

After the preseason I thought they should have released him and tried to bring him back on the PS. After watching the video, reading the comments by college scouts and reporters and in light of the hammy I think the Eagles made a reasonable decision.

Remember he was clocked at 4.48 in the 40 at the combine. He is still going to be faster than almost all non-CB NFL defenders.

Joe,

I do a draft compilation from many sources and those sources had Pumphrey listed as the 172nd best prospect. That is the lower half of the fifth round. So those in the six or so sources saw all the same tape as your sources and they came to the conclusion that he was a 5th round pick. What is a fifth round pick?

A fifth round pick has an 80% chance of making a roster in year one a 57% in year two but only a 37% chance of making the roster heading into year three. That's what his projection says he is. The odds are against him being here after two years. His stay may be short.
Joegrane
Mike, thanks for those numbers. I see your point but that does not exactly address my point.

Many of us, including me, were critical of the Eagles's decision to keep Pump on the 53 rather than releasing him and hoping to get him back on the practice squad. We saw close to nothing from him in the preseason that suggested he'd be an NFL-caliber RB.

However our assessment was SO different than what some scouts and reporters were saying about Pump. Furthermore, the guy you can see in the highlights from his 2016 game vs Cal is dramatically different than what I saw in the preseason. He had burst. You could see his 4.48 speed. Most importantly he was making Division I DBs miss. Links to the video and quotes are here.
http://www.wingheads.com/index.php?showtop...t=0#entry303738

So what are your thoughts about the Eagles' decision AFTER watching the Cal highlights and reading the reviews by scouts and reporters?

They changed my view, especially in light of the hammy he had earlier in the Summer. I think the Eagles made a reasonable decision to protect Pump on the 53.

QUOTE (nephillymike @ Sep 6 2017, 08:00 PM) *
Joe,

I do a draft compilation from many sources and those sources had Pumphrey listed as the 172nd best prospect. That is the lower half of the fifth round. So those in the six or so sources saw all the same tape as your sources and they came to the conclusion that he was a 5th round pick. What is a fifth round pick?

A fifth round pick has an 80% chance of making a roster in year one a 57% in year two but only a 37% chance of making the roster heading into year three. That's what his projection says he is. The odds are against him being here after two years. His stay may be short.

nephillymike
A
QUOTE (Joegrane @ Sep 6 2017, 09:08 PM) *
Mike, thanks for those numbers. I see your point but that does not exactly address my point.

Many of us, including me, were critical of the Eagles's decision to keep Pump on the 53 rather than releasing him and hoping to get him back on the practice squad. We saw close to nothing from him in the preseason that suggested he'd be an NFL-caliber RB.

However our assessment was SO different than what some scouts and reporters were saying about Pump. Furthermore, the guy you can see in the highlights from his 2016 game vs Cal is dramatically different than what I saw in the preseason. He had burst. You could see his 4.48 speed. Most importantly he was making Division I DBs miss. Links to the video and quotes are here.
http://www.wingheads.com/index.php?showtop...t=0#entry303738

So what are your thoughts about the Eagles' decision AFTER watching the Cal highlights and reading the reviews by scouts and reporters?

They changed my view, especially in light of the hammy he had earlier in the Summer. I think the Eagles made a reasonable decision to protect Pump on the 53.

His film looked good in the context of the NCAA. But remember that there have been Heisman winners who didn't get drafted high or last long in the NFL. Scouting reports can embellish the mid round pick with only a shot. I think the guys are just faster and it takes away his advantage. He did not do one thing in any of the preseason games, and according to the reporters, nothing in practice either. We have Marshall to cover Howie's ego for a year, then we'll go from there.
Zero
QUOTE
“The NFL is a matter of a change of game speed. When I’m on the field, I feel I’m the best player on the field, and that goes back to when I was a five-year-old, playing with my older cousins. They used to hit me hard and I would bounce back up. It’s why I’ll never shy away from lowering my shoulder and delivering the shot. I do run with anger and play with as much swag as possible. Go ahead and doubt me. I’ve been doubted before. I’ll keep getting back up.”
Linc ...

This is going to be interesting to watch. Not only to see if Pumphrey can be an NFL player, but to see how Pederson's approach pans out. What do the other players think about keeping 5 RBs at the expense of other potential positions of need?
Joegrane
I admire the attitude & toughness but he has to be smart too, compare the career of Sproles and B West to R. Matthews.

[.quote name='Zero' date='Sep 7 2017, 05:47 AM' post='303772']
Linc ...

This is going to be interesting to watch. Not only to see if Pumphrey can be an NFL player, but to see how Pederson's approach pans out. What do the other players think about keeping 5 RBs at the expense of other potential positions of need?
[/quote]
Joegrane
Pumphrey was inactive at practice today due to his hamstring. Was that the hamstring that he injured early in camp or preseason?

My theory--below--about why he was kept on the 53 still looks good.

QUOTE
PHILADELPHIA EAGLES INJURY REPORT (Wednesday)

Did Not Practice
CB Ronald Darby (ankle)
DT Destiny Vaeao (wrist)

Limited Participation
RB Donnel Pumphrey (hamstring)
https://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2017/9/...ame-kansas-city


QUOTE (Joegrane @ Sep 6 2017, 09:08 PM) *
....

Many of us, including me, were critical of the Eagles's decision to keep Pump on the 53 rather than releasing him and hoping to get him back on the practice squad. We saw close to nothing from him in the preseason that suggested he'd be an NFL-caliber RB.

However our assessment was SO different than what some scouts and reporters were saying about Pump. Furthermore, the guy you can see in the highlights from his 2016 game vs Cal is dramatically different than what I saw in the preseason. He had burst. You could see his 4.48 speed. Most importantly he was making Division I DBs miss. Links to the video and quotes are here.
http://www.wingheads.com/index.php?showtop...t=0#entry303738

So what are your thoughts about the Eagles' decision AFTER watching the Cal highlights and reading the reviews by scouts and reporters?

They changed my view, especially in light of the hammy he had earlier in the Summer. I think the Eagles made a reasonable decision to protect Pump on the 53.
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