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nephillymike
Put me down as a slight win for the Bills.

When we would have gotten a nice comp pick when Matthews walks, giving up a third is too much.

I think a 5th would have been fair.

Consider this.

The Bills get a the comp pick if Matthews walks on them.

mcnabbulous
Comp picks are only awarded on the net results of the offseason. There is no guarantee we would be getting anything for Matthews.
Zero
Eagles biggest need coming out of 2016 ... CB. Eagles biggest need following the draft ... CB. Eagles biggest need following first preseason game ... CB. Eagles biggest need now ... consistent play across the board?

Clear win for Eagles.
The Franchise
A fair trade.

For the two trades the Bills made though, overall they downgraded and got an older WR, downgraded and got an older CB, but picked up a 2nd and 3rd rounder for next year. I'm not a huge fan of trading young and proven players for picks, especially at skill positions.
Joegrane
Maybe the Bills knew they had two malcontents on their hands who would eventually walk in FA so got something for them.

I suspect the Bills did slightly better in this trade; however, given the Eagles situation it seems to be a good decision by Howie.

Factors that influence my view:
Eagles are in win-now mode.
They have a huge hole at CB.
P Robinson has been a disappointment at CB.
I don't expect R Douglass to ever be more than a good Red Zone and short yardage CB.
I don't expect Mills to ever be more than a solid slot CB
They havd some depth at WR after performances so far by their veteran FA pickups and by Agholor and M Hollins.
J Matt probably was going to walk in FA.
Darby had a good rookie season so there is hope he can bounce back in a better environment.
Supposedly Darby played reasonably well against NFC East WRs.
He still is young and has two years left on his contract.
Is Matthews the type of slot CB the Eagles want in their current system?
Consider the Eagles' biggest likely needs in next years draft. They'll likely still be in a position to trade down and pick up a high second rounder and high 3rd rounder. Those could be used to fill two of the likely three biggest needs--feature RB, LB (Kendrick's spot) and slot CB.
Howie got rid of another Chip pick.

I like Matthews but you have to give something to get something.

I suppose this is still early enough in preseason that Darby will be ready to start in Game 1.

If Darby is just an average CB the Eagles should have a good shot to be playing for a playoff spot in Week 16.

QUOTE (The Franchise @ Aug 12 2017, 09:17 PM) *
A fair trade.

For the two trades the Bills made though, overall they downgraded and got an older WR, downgraded and got an older CB, but picked up a 2nd and 3rd rounder for next year. I'm not a huge fan of trading young and proven players for picks, especially at skill positions.

samaroo
I think it's a fair trade, but I'm an Eagles fan so it made me happy. I'm sure it fulfilled whatever the Bills were getting to do, which would make me angry if I were a fan of theirs. JMatt wasn't sticking around anyway, not for what we would have been willing to pay him. If Darby turns out to be as good a CB as Matthews was a WR, I'll be very pleased.
nephillymike
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Aug 12 2017, 03:56 PM) *
Comp picks are only awarded on the net results of the offseason. There is no guarantee we would be getting anything for Matthews.

Good point.
mcnabbulous
Bleeding Green Nation speculates that Matthews was a throw in and Buffalo really didn't care about him, but needed someone to replace Watkins.

He rightfully isn't very highly thought of. He's a decent player at a position where we have several better options. He played in the slot because he wasn't capable of being more.

Darby, on the other hand, is immediately our best CB. He's an absolute blazer who was misfit in their system. At 23, he has tons of untapped potential and the athleticism to get much better.
nephillymike
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Aug 13 2017, 09:34 AM) *
Bleeding Green Nation speculates that Matthews was a throw in and Buffalo really didn't care about him, but needed someone to replace Watkins.

He rightfully isn't very highly thought of. He's a decent player at a position where we have several better options. He played in the slot because he wasn't capable of being more.

Darby, on the other hand, is immediately our best CB. He's an absolute blazer who was misfit in their system. At 23, he has tons of untapped potential and the athleticism to get much better.

I heard that but think about it.

So the trade was originally Darby for a 3rd.

And then we just threw in Matthews? We didn't want him that much, with all of the NFL track record of those "studs"waiting to replace him in the slot?

That doesn't make sense.

And hey, Darby may be good, but don't forget he had a Passer Rating of over 100 last year while playing for the same HC/D.C as the year before, Rex Ryan. Sure he changed position coaches but we change DB coaches here like dirty underwear.

I don't think Matthews was an A tier WR, but he was a solid B, and very popular with the QB and teammates.

People always say his stats are inflated, which could be true b/c of Chip. But does anyone think it was harder for him to put up those numbers when our other two WR have completely sucked over the last few years? DB's had no other WR to worry about, not in the least. If we had average WR, it would be easier for him to be more efficient as there would be more room to operate.

A slight loss in the trade and no, he wasn't a throw in.
mcnabbulous
I think you're overvaluing Matthews. He had basically no ability to create on his own (making him useless on the outside), he had unreliable hands, and he didn't have ideal quickness for the inside.

He had nice size, but he received more targets because of the lack of secondary targets, not despite it.

Darby is controlled for an additional season and provides an immediate upgrade at our weakest position. We are a better team now (and will he better in 2018) as a result of his presence on the roster.
The Franchise
QUOTE (Joegrane @ Aug 12 2017, 10:51 PM) *
If Darby is just an average CB the Eagles should have a good shot to be playing for a playoff spot in Week 16.


He could end up being a star - but yeah, based on what we've had at that position for years, I'd take an average starter.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Aug 13 2017, 01:00 PM) *
I heard that but think about it.

So the trade was originally Darby for a 3rd.

And then we just threw in Matthews? We didn't want him that much, with all of the NFL track record of those "studs"waiting to replace him in the slot?

That doesn't make sense.

And hey, Darby may be good, but don't forget he had a Passer Rating of over 100 last year while playing for the same HC/D.C as the year before, Rex Ryan. Sure he changed position coaches but we change DB coaches here like dirty underwear.

I don't think Matthews was an A tier WR, but he was a solid B, and very popular with the QB and teammates.

People always say his stats are inflated, which could be true b/c of Chip. But does anyone think it was harder for him to put up those numbers when our other two WR have completely sucked over the last few years? DB's had no other WR to worry about, not in the least. If we had average WR, it would be easier for him to be more efficient as there would be more room to operate.

A slight loss in the trade and no, he wasn't a throw in.


It is tough to tell if he was a throw in. They may have asked for a WR and he was the logical choice because of his contract situation. There are too many other needs for cash next year that nullify spending 10 million on a slot guy. He was a great guy, great teammate and a good player and I agree, his numbers may have been even better with some type of outside threat that would have prevented rolling safety help to the nickle backs and linebackers he was covered by but it is also fair to say that he may have also lost a number of targets to a credible outside threat although, even with the dreck that played outside they still threw to Agholar and DGB 130+ times and Ertz saw a lot of targets as well. Matthews only saw 117, good for 26th in the league.

At the end of the day I think it is a good trade for the Eagles, ok for the Bills and bad for Matthews.
Joegrane
Why do you think the trade was bad for Matthews?

In Philly he would likely have seen far fewer targets due to the upgrades at outside WR. Since the Bills shipped out their #1 WR in a recent trade, there should be plenty of targets for Matthews. Obviously Shady is the man up there but I'm confident Matthews will show he is smart enough to learn a new system and the type of good-character guy who can fit in effectively both on and off the field and in the community at large.

QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Aug 13 2017, 02:43 PM) *
It is tough to tell if he was a throw in. They may have asked for a WR and he was the logical choice because of his contract situation. There are too many other needs for cash next year that nullify spending 10 million on a slot guy. He was a great guy, great teammate and a good player and I agree, his numbers may have been even better with some type of outside threat that would have prevented rolling safety help to the nickle backs and linebackers he was covered by but it is also fair to say that he may have also lost a number of targets to a credible outside threat although, even with the dreck that played outside they still threw to Agholar and DGB 130+ times and Ertz saw a lot of targets as well. Matthews only saw 117, good for 26th in the league.

At the end of the day I think it is a good trade for the Eagles, ok for the Bills and bad for Matthews.

Reality Fan
QUOTE (Joegrane @ Aug 13 2017, 04:39 PM) *
Why do you think the trade was bad for Matthews?

In Philly he would likely have seen far fewer targets due to the upgrades at outside WR. Since the Bills shipped out their #1 WR in a recent trade, there should be plenty of targets for Matthews. Obviously Shady is the man up there but I'm confident Matthews will show he is smart enough to learn a new system and the type of good-character guy who can fit in effectively both on and off the field and in the community at large.


First, I don't know that he would have seen significantly less targets this year. He only saw 117 last year which was only 26th in the NFL. Considering the suporting cast that he played with and the number of time the Eagles threw the ball that is suprisingly low. Second, Wentz loved him and gave him a lot of those opportunities, Taylor doesn't know him and Boldin is a vet who may demand a lot of looks. Boldin saw 95 targets last year. Add to that the fact that Buffalo only threw the ball 474 times last year, over 8 passes a game less than Philly and you have a recipe for Matthews having a statistically lesser season in a contract year. That is why I think he is the biggest loser in the trade.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Aug 13 2017, 07:36 PM) *
First, I don't know that he would have seen significantly less targets this year. He only saw 117 last year which was only 26th in the NFL. Considering the suporting cast that he played with and the number of time the Eagles threw the ball that is suprisingly low.

Over 16 games (he played 14) his numbers would have been closer to 133 and 15th overall. FWIW.



Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Aug 14 2017, 08:51 AM) *
Over 16 games (he played 14) his numbers would have been closer to 133 and 15th overall. FWIW.


If you want to nitpick at least get it right...3 guys between him and 15 also missed 1 or 2 games. However, if you want to get really technical. he was 21st in targets per game.

https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/reports/targets/wr.php
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Aug 14 2017, 12:46 PM) *
However, if you want to get really technical. he was 21st in targets per game.

https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/reports/targets/wr.php

Which I would say ranks quite a bit higher than his standing league wide.
nephillymike
FWIW, Sal Pal dropped this little tidbit:

In 2016, our CB's were so bad. Nolan Carroll was ranked 50th out of the 64 starting CB's.

Our newly acquired CB that cost us a 3rd round pick and a good WR was rated..............................

52nd!

At least we didn't give them a first round pick!!
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Aug 15 2017, 05:57 PM) *
FWIW, Sal Pal dropped this little tidbit:

In 2016, our CB's were so bad. Nolan Carroll was ranked 50th out of the 64 starting CB's.

Our newly acquired CB that cost us a 3rd round pick and a good WR was rated..............................

52nd!

At least we didn't give them a first round pick!!

By what measure?
nephillymike
Sorry, forgot that.

Pro Football Focus
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Aug 15 2017, 07:05 PM) *
Sorry, forgot that.

Pro Football Focus

Cool, was hoping I could disregard it.
Reality Fan
I have been reading up on the Buffalo press from the last 2 years about Darby and the common denominator was that he had a great rookie year and regressed badly last year. That is kind of obvious since the pass defense was ranked 27th. That is 13th spots lower than the year before. On a bright note, they gave up 2 less 40+ yard plays than the Eagles.lol

samaroo
I've read several pieces about how buffalo had to start like 7 different safeties last year due to injury, and that Darby's play likely suffered for it. FWIW.
Zero
I'm not sure Buffalo did the right thing for their team. They give up Watkins and Darby, two promising young players and get lesser players and a #2 and #3 in return. The ultimate key for them is how those two draft picks turn out. Two young, known, quality players for two decent players and two unknowns. This defines "risk" if you ask me but I guess those who value picks over experience think differently.
QUOTE
“[Personnel conversations] start the minute you report to camp,” said Roseman. “We had these conversations with Buffalo throughout training camp and as we went into the first preseason game and we found a match.”

The Bills had been talking with the Rams since they declined Watkins’ option earlier in the offseason, but knew if they traded their top wide receiver, they would need to get another talented receiver somewhere. That’s when the Eagles came into play.
Linc ...
Joegrane
Do the Bills tend to loose valuable FAs to more attractive teams and cities? If so, then getting something for guys who don't like being in Buffalo or don't fit the system means they will draft many players in one year. They will blossom at the same time. Maybe more of them will want to stay after 4 yrs because they see a brighter future there.

The new coach gets to select players that will fit his system.

They will have higher draft slot because they are giving up good players.

They are rebuilding the way small market teams have to do it.


QUOTE (Zero @ Aug 18 2017, 05:31 AM) *
I'm not sure Buffalo did the right thing for their team. They give up Watkins and Darby, two promising young players and get lesser players and a #2 and #3 in return. The ultimate key for them is how those two draft picks turn out. Two young, known, quality players for two decent players and two unknowns. This defines "risk" if you ask me but I guess those who value picks over experience think differently.
Linc ...

Zero
Apparently there's a rumor that they're talking about trading McCoy.
Joegrane
Do they have the cap room?
Howie has avoided long-term deals for older players except special ones-Jpeters, a future HoFer. Shady could tempt them, especially Lurie. I dont think it happens this season,

QUOTE (Zero @ Aug 19 2017, 04:09 AM) *
Apparently there's a rumor that they're talking about trading McCoy.

Reality Fan
I think they are reacting to a snippet on the radio from Mikey Miss talking with Brian Westbrook and there is no basis in actual fact or real discussions. Buffalo has no plans to trade McCoy. That being said McCoy is apparently not happy in Buffalo.
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