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nephillymike
The Hinkieites and the Anti-Sametics amaze me. At various times over the last few weeks, both camps have claimed victory.

Just today, the Hinkieites were crowing victorious.

I get a little annoyed because you don't win by getting two 1st picks and two third picks, but to hear some of the chatter, you'd think we won something.

It led me to this question. Let's assume Hinkie was honest and told us that there would be thre years of tanking. Three full years. If you knew this, what is adequate return over the next seven years to justify the three year investment?

I think I will be an easier grader than most, but I will say we need to get to at least one NBA finals and to get to at least three conference championships over the next seven years. This is Philly, and we don't win championships, so I thought it unfair to put that monkey on the backs of the Hinkieites. However, I think the above results are reasonable.

Anyone?
D Rock
I am behind Hinkie's Process, and have been pretty much from "go."

Conceptually, I agree that being a middling franchise that annually squeaks into the playoffs as a 6-8 seed is a Loooooong road to nowhere. NBA success is predicated on having 2 or 3 top eschelon players in the league. There are only 30 teams, with a max roster of 12 players (recently increased for 2 additional D league slots), we're talking about 360 players in the entire league.

All-NBA level talent is few and far between, and very difficult to acquire outside of the lottery portion of the draft. Sure, anecdotally you can find examples of 2nd rounders who turned out, gems in the rough uncovered from far away lands, or block-buster trades, but generally speaking . . . teams like this years Wizards are going to have a tough time maintaining their positions, let alone improving them. And how did the Wizards get here? Decades of mediocrity, and one lone season of being bad enough to earn the John Wall pick. One All-NBA player simply can't make you a contender.

What Sam brought was multiple chances at the gold ring, over multiple years. Did he game the system? He sure did. Did he miss on Okafor? Horribly. But he gave us the ammo and assets required to build a roster that is so fabulously delicious on paper, and looks to be a perrenial power house in the east for the next decade.

Is anybody still crying about MCW today? Hinkie's evaluation of him was spot-on, and he'll be lucky to have one of those 360 jobs when his contract is up. And by letting him go, he managed to land us the finest guard prospect to enter the league in nearly a decade.

The losing was tough, although SIGNIFICANTLY less so this past season once we started to get a glimpse of Joel, Dario, and the brief summer glimpses of Ben.

To me, the process has already been a success.

A roster surrounding a core of MCW, Jrue Holiday, and Thad Young never had a shot of getting past the 2nd round of the playoffs.

I would suggest that folks who have a problem with the process, are mis-directing their angst. Hinkie nearly mastered the game. He didn't write the rules.

It was a painful 3 years. But the fruits of it are far greater than 3 years of 1st round playoff losses in basketballs version of Ground Hog Day.
nephillymike
QUOTE (D Rock @ Jun 19 2017, 10:35 PM) *
I am behind Hinkie's Process, and have been pretty much from "go."

Conceptually, I agree that being a middling franchise that annually squeaks into the playoffs as a 6-8 seed is a Loooooong road to nowhere. NBA success is predicated on having 2 or 3 top eschelon players in the league. There are only 30 teams, with a max roster of 12 players (recently increased for 2 additional D league slots), we're talking about 360 players in the entire league.

All NBA level talent is few and far between, and very difficult to acquire outside of the lottery portion of the draft. Sure, anecdotally you can find examples of 2nd rounders who turned out, gems in the rough uncovered from far away lands, or block-buster trades, but generally speaking . . . teams like this years Wizards are going to have a tough time maintaining their positions, let alone improving them.

What Sam brought was multiple chances at the gold ring, over multiple years. Did he game the system? He sure did. Did he miss on Okafor? Horribly. But he gave us the ammo and assets required to build a roster that is so fabulously delicious on paper, and looks to be a perrenial power house in the east for the next decade.

Is anybody still crying about MCW today? Hinkie's evaluation of him was spot-on, and he'll be lucky to have one of those 360 jobs when his contract is up. And by letting him go, he managed to land us the finest guard prospect to enter the league in nearly a decade.

The losing was tough, although SIGNIFICANTLY less so this past season once we started to get a glimpse of Joel, Dario, and the brief summer glimpses of Ben.

To me, the process has already been a success.

A roster surrounding a core of MCW, Jrue Holiday, and Thad Young never had a shot of getting past the 2nd round of the playoffs.

I would suggest that folks who have a problem with the process, are mis-directing their angst. Hinkie nearly mastered the game. He didn't write the rules.

It was a painful 3 years. But the fruits of it are far greater than 3 years of 1st round playoff losses in basketballs version of Ground Hog Day.


Already a success?

Wow.

You would fit right in on the airwaves today.

Since it is already a success, I guess winning isn't in the grading rubric.

At least you had the balls to say it.

Most just won't answer.
Reality Fan
I don;t think anyone can argue with the idea that Hinkie had....just like I don;t think anyone can argue that he was not the guy to decide who to draft.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jun 19 2017, 10:44 PM) *
I don;t think anyone can argue with the idea that Hinkie had....just like I don;t think anyone can argue that he was not the guy to decide who to draft.

Definition of success?
D Rock
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jun 20 2017, 04:44 AM) *
I don;t think anyone can argue with the idea that Hinkie had....just like I don;t think anyone can argue that he was not the guy to decide who to draft.

He missed on Okafor. But damned if he didn't hit on more picks than he missed. Projection is a tough business. Embiid, Simmons (that's equally on him and BC), Covington. Even guys like MCW (who did earn ROY - only to see Sam correctly sell him when his stock was at it's peak), and Noel were good picks.

He had to hedge his bet on Embiid. While Okafor was undoubtedly a miss, it was the right pick at the time. The issue with too many centers, once we saw Embiid was a necessary bi-product of hedging that bet.

Nobody is mistake free. But the position he put us (Bryan Colangelo) in, is the envy of the league. Sure, the Celts fleeced Brooklynn. In fact, look no further than Brooklynn vs. the Celtics to see the value of playing the draft game. We started our rebuild around the same time. But, we didn't have the luxury of having the likes of KG, Ray Allen, Pierce, and Rondo to sell. We were selling Evan Turner (ew), Thad Young (nice player, at the wrong place at the wrong time), and MCW. We had to earn our top picks. It was painful. But, I personally feel it was brilliantly played.
D Rock
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jun 20 2017, 04:43 AM) *
Already a success?

Wow.

You would fit right in on the airwaves today.

Since it is already a success, I guess winning isn't in the grading rubric.

At least you had the balls to say it.

Most just won't answer.

I say "already a success" from a GMs point of view.

The job is to build a roster that can legitimately earn a chance to compete in May/June.

There is ZERO doubt, that this roster is more well equipped to do that, than any post Iverson roster we've had.

I'll take the hardships required to build that roster over more decades of mediocrity.

Obviously, it's on the players and coaching to take us from here to there. And from a franchise point of view, only that will allow us to call it a success.

But, I'll jump on the soap-box and shout to all within earshot that "Sam Hinkie's efforts were successful."
Reality Fan
I disagree on Noel who time has proven, as the stats bear out, to be nothing more than a Rashuan Holmes clone who costs a lot more.(actually I think Holmes out-statted him by the end of the year.) MCW was a later pick but Embid and Simmons were the same type of pick you talk about with Fultz, no brainers. Embid was tricky in that it was a risk but really the only move they could have made. The question is would a basketball mind have taken Porzingis instead of Okafor?

He did trade for Saric, who I like but I think it is fair to say that he wanted the pick that came with it more than Saric himself. That pick was part of earlier Sixer mismanagement and restored an asset he should have had from the start.

The way I see it, and I could be wrong, Hinkie drafted 16 guys

I liked Embid (no brianer even with the risk, that is what doctors are for), I liked the Holmes pick. I can even give him a pass on MCW because you are right that he got rid of him when he was hot.

After that it has been 11 guys who will never see the floor. He made very good asset moves but not one savvy talent move in the draft. He did sign Covington.....that is a plus as he steadily evolves into a player.



He did what you want an administrator to do, he came in and cleaned up the business side of the operation, restored assets previously squandered by Collins, et al. He did a great job. But I think that is where his abilities ended.
D Rock
We surely disagree on the player Nerlens Noel is. There are some things that the numbers don't show. There is no stat for a guy who flashes out past the screener, allows the ball handler's defender to navigate the screen, then recovers to his own man in a single step. There are no stats for shots altered at the rim. No stat for a help defender from rim to line. Time will prove one of us right on Nerlens. But NBA GMs will be lined up to offer him a max-deal this summer, for whatever that's worth.

I think the "basketball minds" that saw Porzingis over Okafor were mostly taking a public dump on Phil Jackson for months after he chose Porzingis at 4. And as I said, I think the Okafor pick was more about hedging his bet on Embiid.

It's easy to dismiss fruitful picks as "no brainers" when they come at the top of the draft. The point is that the very nature of the game is putting yourself in a position to make your pick a "no brainer."

He certainly did that.

What he did that sells me on his ability as a talent evaluator are more the Holmes, Covington, Grant, McConnell, Dario, KJ McDaniels type of players.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (D Rock @ Jun 20 2017, 01:51 AM) *
What he did that sells me on his ability as a talent evaluators are more the Holmes, Covington, Grant, McConnell, Dario, KJ McDaniels type of players.


I agree on Holmes.....Covington, I think was a happy accident(He was signed at the start of the tank). As mentioned earlier, Dario was more about the picks and not the player in as much as there was no time table for him to be here in less than 2 years. The pick they got back was the real trade.

KJ McDaniel and Grant were ordinary guys on a terrible team...kind of like being the tallest midget. Their performance after leaving says it all. I do like McConnell..though I think that was Brown more than anything, Hinkie did sign him though.
D Rock
I thought Grant looked very good in the early rounds of the playoffs for OKC. RoCo was part of that group with Hollis (who I never bought) and a gaggle of others. The tank was on. That Robert evolved into what he is, is a testament to Brett Brown in my mind. Brett lead the player developement part of the Spurs as Pops assistant. The work he did with Kawai Leonard has been backed up by the startaling growth of Covington. He's our Draymond Green. Player acquisition, and the success therein, has to go hand-in-hand with player development.

I know that's not what we're talking about but, I really thought Brett Brown should have been in serious contention for coach of the year this past season.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (D Rock @ Jun 20 2017, 02:31 AM) *
I know that's not what we're talking about but, I really thought Brett Brown should have been in serious contention for coach of the year this past season.


Amen....Covington and the emergence of McConnell as a legit NBA player are just 2 of many examples....Brown is a great coach.....love the guy....a little health and he will win a lot of games
mcnabbulous
I haven't been interested in Sixers basketball for well over a decade (with the exception of lottery/draft night). Now I'm very invested.

The process was simply about consolidating an inevitable period of failure into as little time as possible. Almost every NBA franchise sucks. Why delay the suffering?

I've enjoyed watching them be terrible while accumulating assets more than I would have watching them crap out in the first or second round every year (at best).

The process worked, even if they never win anything meaningful.
D Rock
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jun 20 2017, 03:23 PM) *
The process worked, even if they never win anything meaningful.

nabby gets it.
nephillymike
QUOTE (D Rock @ Jun 20 2017, 10:55 AM) *
nabby gets it.

You guys are nuts!

It is close to a mathematical certainty that if you tank in the NBA for a prolonged period of time you will get assets and many of them will be picks near the top of the draft.

We got that.

Anybody with a league tv revenue that depends very little on attendance, an owner with a lot of patience, the opportunity to get Vlade drunk, the morality to be embarrassingly bad and a pocket protector to spare could do what we did. The fact the new TV deal was so prosperous allows teams to weather the tanking storms more than most were able to year's ago.

The skill comes in picking the right players and matching the system and coaches.

They have a way of assessing how well we do in the second part. It's called wins and playoff success. Let's see how we do.
D Rock
It's also a certainty that a perennial 6 seed in the playoffs will never get over the hump in today's NBA.

You play the game by the dictates of the current reality. One thing is certain. Morality plays no part. If you are truly about winning, you game the system to work in your favor.

Was it a painful ride? Sure. A bit. But to sit here today, it's easy to say "it was worth it."

As I said, it's on players and coaches to bring us from here to there. But we now go in to battle armed to the teeth.

I'll take it when considering the alternative that was to spin our wheels with a core built on Thad, MCW, Jrue, and Evan fucking Turner. When morality is equatable to futility, I think one could question whether or not that route was morally righteous at all when it comes to the fans.
nephillymike
Amazing.

I ask to define success and I get two guys who already say we're a success and nobody else opines.

It's like having a college class with no tests.

Weak!
mcnabbulous
Nah. Picking the right players is a crapshoot. That we have put ourselves in a position to build a hypothetical future champion in four years, while retaining future assets was the process. As D said, you're not going to win a championship as a 45-50 win team in the modern NBA.

Who gives a shit about the losses? Was it really any worse than what the Phillies have put us through in recent years? And they're not nearly as committed to being awful.

Does anyone give a shit that the Astros were historically bad over a four year period now that they have a perennial contender brewing down in Houston?
D Rock
You've said nothing to dispute my claim that you can call it a success for a GM.

I've said repeatedly that for it to be a success for the franchise, players and coaches will have to take us from here to there.

A GMs roll is to build a roster capable of competing in May/June. We now have that. To deny that we have the strongest post Iverson era roster going into 2017/18 season would be truly weak. And we still have free agency to go.
nephillymike
http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers...vid-murphy.html

RF's boy makes some good points.

Had to chuckle at the "Sam Hinkie aligned Progressives" and the looming reality comment.

It may be a stretch to link it to politics, but I think the caution of the longer than expected road to riches is a worthy one.
D Rock
To say BC knows "the hard work is ahead because that's who he is" in the first paragraph is hilarious. Nepotism, trust funded, designer suit boy, is suddenly the very personification of hard work.

Watching you Process deniers fall all over yourselves to manufacture angst is hilarious.

David Murphy is a talentless hack, and a poor excuse for a journalist. His only saving grace is that he's employed by the same rag that employs Brookover. By comparison, David seems nearly competent.

D Rock
Nm
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (D Rock @ Jun 21 2017, 09:28 AM) *
To say BC knows "the hard work is ahead because that's who he is" in the first paragraph is hilarious. Nepotism, trust funded, designer suit boy, is suddenly the very personification of hard work.

Even beyond that, the process was all about securing an unprecedented amount of draft capital and talent. People have been building basketball champions forever. No one has had the amount of resources that Hinkie generated to do so.

That's what this was all about.

Obviously the players have to do their part (mostly be able to stay on the court), but we have an insane combination of young talent, future assets and cap space to compete for the foreseeable future.

Colangelo trying to position himself as though he's the one going to be the mastermind is definitely hilarious.
D Rock
Agreed. I was very worried about bringing him in, and the Noel deal (along with the failure to get Okafor out of here) was not raising my hopes for him.

But, moving up for Fultz and doing it at less of a cost than I would have been willing to pay gives me hope.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (D Rock @ Jun 21 2017, 02:48 PM) *
Agreed. I was very worried about bringing him in, and the Noel deal (along with the failure to get Okafor out of here) was not raising my hopes for him.

But, moving up for Fultz and doing it at less of a cost than I would have been willing to pay gives me hope.


I am at a loss with your Noel fascination....getting rid of him was a good move.....the word was already out that he was looking for 15-18 million and you have his production from a guy making 2-4 million. Noel is athletic and that is it. You acknowledge that Okafor was a mistake but you want to blame BC because the rest of the league knows it too? What team is he supposed to force to take Okafor? Should he also get 1st rounder for him?..lol

I am not sure what rich kid pissed you off but BC, who I could really care less about, had good and bad moments in Toronto as well and was Exec of the year there and I am pretty sure his pop had nothing to do with that franchise. Did his dad award his both EOY awards?

Hinkie did not do one thing to inspire confidence that he could make the right talent pick. He took embid because he fell to him. He took Noel who has proven to be a decent backup....he took MCW, a guard who still can't shoot. Covington was an accident because he was really brought in to help the tank.

I can't understand anyone thinking Hinkie was going to build a great team...he is an administrator and good at it and did a terrific job of cleaning up the mess here but that was the apex of his ability. That he threw a tantrum and left when they brought in someone to actually help grade talent speaks volumes not to mention that agents hated Hinkie with a passion, not exactly helpful to lure in FAs.
mcnabbulous
I think that Hinkie's strategy is probably best suited by having someone else lead us moving forward. While I don't have a horrible problem with the choices he made, given that it's gotten us where we are, I don't know that he would have pulled the trigger on the Fultz deal.

Regardless, the ability to acquire the pieces we have is because of Hinkie and the unprecedented position he put us in. That was the process. And it was a success.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (D Rock @ Jun 21 2017, 02:48 PM) *
Agreed. I was very worried about bringing him in, and the Noel deal (along with the failure to get Okafor out of here) was not raising my hopes for him.

But, moving up for Fultz and doing it at less of a cost than I would have been willing to pay gives me hope.


Another thing....Hinkie had no way of knowing that Embid would continue to be hurt and that Simmons would be hurt so to say that the process landed Fultz is silly. Had Simmons and Embid been healthy there would have been a 10-15 pick awaiting the Sixers. Hinkie was right to tank....even for 2 years and circumstances forced a 3rd but to say all of this is by his plan is madness.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jun 21 2017, 02:58 PM) *
Another thing....Hinkie had no way of knowing that Embid would continue to be hurt and that Simmons would be hurt so to say that the process landed Fultz is silly. Had Simmons and Embid been healthy there would have been a 10-15 pick awaiting the Sixers. Hinkie was right to tank....even for 2 years and circumstances forced a 3rd but to say all of this is by his plan is madness.

We swapped picks with Sacramento, so your point is invalid.
D Rock
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jun 21 2017, 07:23 PM) *
I am at a loss with your Noel fascination....getting rid of him was a good move.....the word was already out that he was looking for 15-18 million and you have his production from a guy making 2-4 million. Noel is athletic and that is it. You acknowledge that Okafor was a mistake but you want to blame BC because the rest of the league knows it too? What team is he supposed to force to take Okafor? Should he also get 1st rounder for him?..lol

I am not sure what rich kid pissed you off but BC, who I could really care less about, had good and bad moments in Toronto as well and was Exec of the year there and I am pretty sure his pop had nothing to do with that franchise. Did his dad award his both EOY awards?

Hinkie did not do one thing to inspire confidence that he could make the right talent pick. He took embid because he fell to him. He took Noel who has proven to be a decent backup....he took MCW, a guard who still can't shoot. Covington was an accident because he was really brought in to help the tank.

I can't understand anyone thinking Hinkie was going to build a great team...he is an administrator and good at it and did a terrific job of cleaning up the mess here but that was the apex of his ability. That he threw a tantrum and left when they brought in someone to actually help grade talent speaks volumes not to mention that agents hated Hinkie with a passion, not exactly helpful to lure in FAs.

Like I've said... The fact is, NBA GMs are going to be lined up to offer Noel a max contract. It's not unreasonable to think that the trade return on a max level player should exceed a pair of 2nd round picks. I'd take that deal for Jah. But I think he should and could have gotten more in return. How is that so difficult to fathom?
D Rock
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jun 21 2017, 08:08 PM) *
We swapped picks with Sacramento, so your point is invalid.

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Too easy.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (D Rock @ Jun 21 2017, 03:55 PM) *
laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Too easy.

It actually gets even easier when you explain all the protected assets we continue to hold over the next two drafts. Not part of the plan. Just dumb luck I tell ya.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (D Rock @ Jun 21 2017, 04:54 PM) *
Like I've said... The fact is, NBA GMs are going to be lined up to offer Noel a max contract. It's not unreasonable to think that the trade return on a max level player should exceed a pair of 2nd round picks. I'd take that deal for Jah. But I think he should and could have gotten more in return. How is that so difficult to fathom?


I get your theory on pedigree having value to a dumb GM but at some point performance and media educates even the worst GM. You make a case that another GM will offer Noel a big contract but what does that prove? If he can;t outperform Holmes on the court all it proves is that he helped a team reach the salary floor. You can't argue with a season of numbers. You can't say he is better than Holmes but his numbers don't mean anything....well you could but it is kind of silly. I get you wanted more but again, there has to be someone who wants him and if he is approaching FA and is just ok then why will anyone pony up valuable assets for him? That would make any GM look like an idiot. I guess we just disagree on Noel's value.

I would take a ham sandwich for Jah. The problem is that no one is even offering that. They are trying to tie him into any deal they can as it is.
nephillymike
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jun 21 2017, 12:44 PM) *
Even beyond that, the process was all about securing an unprecedented amount of draft capital and talent. People have been building basketball champions forever. No one has had the amount of resources that Hinkie generated to do so.

That's what this was all about.

Obviously the players have to do their part (mostly be able to stay on the court), but we have an insane combination of young talent, future assets and cap space to compete for the foreseeable future.

Colangelo trying to position himself as though he's the one going to be the mastermind is definitely hilarious.


If it's assets that you want, there is another team in our division that has plenty.

If it's assets AND winning that you want, there is another team in our division who has managed to do both.

There are different ways.

I don't hate Hinkie. I see value in what he did but realize the economic realities of the NBA made that possible today.

But to say it is a success is like a high school senior saying the game of life is over because he got accepted and got some scholarship money to his school of choice.

No.

You need to get a good job with that education, just like the Sixers need to win something to validate it.

So if you won't go out on that limb, I will throw this out there.

If this Sixers team over the next seven years fails to make the NBA finals, was the process a success?

D Rock
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jun 22 2017, 12:24 AM) *
If it's assets that you want, there is another team in our division that has plenty.

If it's assets AND winning that you want, there is another team in our division who has managed to do both.

They also started with a championship core that included a pair of hall of famers, and Ray Allen.

Us? Thad Young. And a gimpy Bynum who never played a minute. The cupboard was bare, bru.

You asked a question, and don't like the answer. The rebuild is by and large, over.

Sure, they have to go out and play, and coach, and win.

But the process was about rebuilding the roster into one that can compete, and that is over.
D Rock
I came across this and it summed up the process in tidy fashion....

There has been no more dramatic team in sports than the Sixers. From absolute obscurity. A decade of mediocrity and aimlessness. Then finally: the Bynum trade, the knee lube, the Flamenco dancing, the bowling, the hair. Then Hinkie, and the Jrue trade. Not hiring a coach until August. Royce White. Hawes not giving a single fuck. MCW rookie of the year. Embiid injury. Draft him anyway. Dario’s never coming over. Jason Richardson played?! KJ’s mom. MCW trade. KJ trade. Former Sixer Javale McGee. Former Sixer Andrei Kirilenko. Another Embiid injury. Okafor draft. Dario’s still never coming over. Pick Swap trade. Okafor law trouble. Okafor’s dad. Kendall Marshall’s dad. All the fucking Process arguments. The losing streak. League forces Colangelo on us. Ish returns. Elton Brand played?! Barely avoiding the worst record of all time. Hinkie ran out of town. The Hinkie letter. Colangelo hires his kid without any hiring process. Hinkie billboard. Sixers win the Lottery. Draft Ben Simmons. Simmons’s injury. Dario came over! Embiid plays. Embiid nicknames himself The Process. Minutes restrictions. JANUARY. TJ game winner over Porzingis. Embiid gets hurt, they play him anyway, he dominates on national TV, never plays again. Nerlens trade. Okafor’s meniscus. Covington’s meniscus. EVERYBODY’S MENISCUS. THE PICKS SWAPPED. TRADE UP TO ONE. And now we’re here. Days before the 2017 NBA Draft. About 5 years after the Bynum trade. The rebuild has finally ended. We were right. We have the brightest future in sports. We were always right. And it feels good.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (D Rock @ Jun 21 2017, 04:55 PM) *
laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Too easy.


Again, you both miss the point.....it was the luck of the draw and Hinkie certainly had no way of knowing that Sac would luck out and get the 3rd pick. I am not arguing that he did not amass assets but had things played out without injury the Sixers would most likely not be in the position they were to trade for Fultz so easily. Had Embid not lost his 2nd year they would not have had the chance to draft Simmons. Much of what has happened has not been planned but reactionary.
D Rock
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jun 22 2017, 12:31 AM) *
Again, you both miss the point.....it was the luck of the draw and Hinkie certainly had no way of knowing that Sac would luck out and get the 3rd pick. I am not arguing that he did not amass assets but had things played out without injury the Sixers would most likely not be in the position they were to trade for Fultz so easily. Had Embid not lost his 2nd year they would not have had the chance to draft Simmons. Much of what has happened has not been planned but reactionary.

We didn't miss any point. You failed to make one.

You said specifically that if Embiid and Simmons had not been injured, we would have chosen in the 10-15 range.

That's simply wrong.

Additionally, it's emblematic of the "Process Haters" inability to see the many layered intricacies of what Sam was able to attain through 3 years of tanking. He's set us up for years to come, but all the naysayers see was 3 lousy years. It's as if the decades of mediocrity were preferable because folks were stupid enough to think knocking a Derrick Rose-less Bulls team out of the playoffs meant something. (hint: it didn't)

You want us to "get" your point? Try making one that makes some fucking sense.

tongue.gif
mcnabbulous
Hard to believe RF would double down on a point he is irrefutably wrong about.

And if we didn't have Fultz, we would have a different high draft pick, the Lakers pick next year (along with ours) and the Kings pick in 2019 (along with ours). And the most cap space in the league.

But yes. If all of those things failed to be true, I would also agree that he got lucky.
Joegrane
The Process is not really over.

They will likely get a decent piece from their own borderline lottery pick next year.

They will either get a lottery pick next year from the Lakers or from the Kings the year after.

They still have the young SG stashed in Europe for at least another year.

They might get a minor piece from a trade of some combo of an existing veteran--Stauskas--plus one or more 2nd round picks.

They have the war chest of $ for a major piece after they show they are ready for a high caliber FA and show they are talented enough to tempt a FA to take less $ to come here for a deep run.

That assumes the major pieces stay healthy.

QUOTE (D Rock @ Jun 21 2017, 06:27 PM) *
I came across this and it summed up the process in tidy fashion....

There has been no more dramatic team in sports than the Sixers. From absolute obscurity. A decade of mediocrity and aimlessness. Then finally: the Bynum trade, the knee lube, the Flamenco dancing, the bowling, the hair. Then Hinkie, and the Jrue trade. Not hiring a coach until August. Royce White. Hawes not giving a single fuck. MCW rookie of the year. Embiid injury. Draft him anyway. Dario’s never coming over. Jason Richardson played?! KJ’s mom. MCW trade. KJ trade. Former Sixer Javale McGee. Former Sixer Andrei Kirilenko. Another Embiid injury. Okafor draft. Dario’s still never coming over. Pick Swap trade. Okafor law trouble. Okafor’s dad. Kendall Marshall’s dad. All the fucking Process arguments. The losing streak. League forces Colangelo on us. Ish returns. Elton Brand played?! Barely avoiding the worst record of all time. Hinkie ran out of town. The Hinkie letter. Colangelo hires his kid without any hiring process. Hinkie billboard. Sixers win the Lottery. Draft Ben Simmons. Simmons’s injury. Dario came over! Embiid plays. Embiid nicknames himself The Process. Minutes restrictions. JANUARY. TJ game winner over Porzingis. Embiid gets hurt, they play him anyway, he dominates on national TV, never plays again. Nerlens trade. Okafor’s meniscus. Covington’s meniscus. EVERYBODY’S MENISCUS. THE PICKS SWAPPED. TRADE UP TO ONE. And now we’re here. Days before the 2017 NBA Draft. About 5 years after the Bynum trade. The rebuild has finally ended. We were right. We have the brightest future in sports. We were always right. And it feels good.

Reality Fan
QUOTE (D Rock @ Jun 21 2017, 07:39 PM) *
We didn't miss any point. You failed to make one.

You said specifically that if Embiid and Simmons had not been injured, we would have chosen in the 10-15 range.

That's simply wrong.

Additionally, it's emblematic of the "Process Haters" inability to see the many layered intricacies of what Sam was able to attain through 3 years of tanking. He's set us up for years to come, but all the naysayers see was 3 lousy years. It's as if the decades of mediocrity were preferable because folks were stupid enough to think knocking a Derrick Rose-less Bulls team out of the playoffs meant something. (hint: it didn't)

You want us to "get" your point? Try making one that makes some fucking sense.

tongue.gif


You are right....because if the Sixers had a much better record the lottery odds would not have changed...oh wait...they would have....I merely point out that it was not some orderly plan...it was a lot of bad luck and good luck.

Ironically I found Bod Ford agrees with me...

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers...k-20170621.html

But you are right....Hinkie planned this all out...hell, he even was going to draft Fultz...and he expected "The Process" to last 4 years....or 5 years...I forget how long this fucking circus has gone on....

By the way...I would check out the Celtics before you dig that shithole any deeper....in 2014 they were 25-57 and had no "Championship core" The leading scorer was Jeff Green...did he win a championship? They were a mess. Ray Allen was gone 2 years at that point. And he wasn't traded for assets, he turned down their contract offer and signed with the Heat.

3 seasons ago they added IT and slowly built their team...well, compared to the Hinkie Process, they did it at warp speed. They did get an extra draft pick in 2014 and 2016 when they traded away Garnet et al. In that same time frame the Celts have had 10 first round draft picks...2 better than 16th. The Sixers have had 8 with 3 in the top 5. Noel was not drafted by the Sixers but went 6th so that would be a 9th first rounder and a fourth top ten pick. The Sixers have had 22 picks vs the Celtics 18 in spite of all the trades.

Not sure what team you are thinking of but I am pretty sure Mikey was talking about the Celtics.
D Rock
QUOTE (Joegrane @ Jun 22 2017, 04:30 AM) *
The Process is not really over.

They will likely get a decent piece from their own borderline lottery pick next year.

They will either get a lottery pick next year from the Lakers or from the Kings the year after.

They still have the young SG stashed in Europe for at least another year.

They might get a minor piece from a trade of some combo of an existing veteran--Stauskas--plus one or more 2nd round picks.

They have the war chest of $ for a major piece after they show they are ready for a high caliber FA and show they are talented enough to tempt a FA to take less $ to come here for a deep run.

That assumes the major pieces stay healthy.

It's deeper than that. With contracts and timing and 2n round picks galore, it will keep raining for the next 3 years. At that point, we'll know more about Joel's ability to stay on the court. We'll know if Simmons can run the show, or if he's more a secondary ball handler in the "Lebron" mold. We'll know who Fultz is.

The ideas is, was, and had always been about... getting players who's questions were how do we capitalize on their greatness? What we had, and looked to continue to have, were players who's questions were, how do we hide their flaws.

Like it or not. The ONLY way to get your hands on those players, is by drafting them.

It's on the association that the only way to draft them is by losing.

In the NFL, you have multiple bites at the apple each year. Even if you're a top team, you still get multiple chances. Our Iggles aren't the only team to find (for example) a Trent Cole in the FIFTH ROUND. You bring NINETY to camp. You keep 53 on your final.

The NBA is comprised of 360 players en toto.

I realize this is a football message board, and am not insensitive to the fact that Sixers talk has created an inordinate amount of traffic of late.

I'm just trying to share my fascination, and unbridled optimism for my Sixers with folks I assume want them to do as well as I do. Those folk are few and far between here in the city of angeles.
Zero
QUOTE (D Rock @ Jun 22 2017, 02:05 AM) *
I realize this is a football message board, and am not insensitive to the fact that Sixers talk has created an inordinate amount of traffic of late.

I'm just trying to share my fascination, and unbridled optimism for my Sixers with folks I assume want them to do as well as I do. Those folk are few and far between here in the city of angeles.
I'm not much of a hoops fan but I've somewhat enjoyed learning something from these threads. The only drawback is that it's a football forum and I'm hungry for football posts. I realize it's a difference without much of a distinction, but it would be nice if we had a sub-board for Sixer and Phillies talk.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jun 21 2017, 11:28 PM) *
You are right....because if the Sixers had a much better record the lottery odds would not have changed...oh wait...they would have....I merely point out that it was not some orderly plan...it was a lot of bad luck and good luck.

Hahah. We are officially balls deep in the RF bullshit zone. You want us to believe you meant that the Sixers were lucky Embiid and Simmons were hurt because it impacted Sacramento's lottery odds? Classic shit.

The Process wasn't about Fultz. Nor Embiid or Simmons. It was about acquiring unprecedented resources to position ourselves to do so. And to that respect it was a success.

Literally no one calls it The Orderly Plan.
D Rock
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jun 22 2017, 12:39 PM) *
Hahah. We are officially balls deep in the RF bullshit zone. You want us to believe you meant that the Sixers were lucky Embiid and Simmons were hurt because it impacted Sacramento's lottery odds? Classic shit.

The Process wasn't about Fultz. Nor Embiid or Simmons. It was about acquiring unprecedented resources to position ourselves to do so. And to that respect it was a success.

Literally no one calls it The Orderly Plan.

Typical RF.

Says something outrageously stupid, then jumps up and down for a week trying to justify and explain what he really meant rather than just admit he said something outrageously stupid. It's ruined more threads than I care to count.

Fucking know nothing blow hard. He contributes nothing of substance, but manages to annoy everyone in the process. He must be hell at a party.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (D Rock @ Jun 22 2017, 10:48 AM) *
Typical RF.

Says something outrageously stupid, then jumps up and down for a week trying to justify and explain what he really meant rather than just admit he said something outrageously stupid. It's ruined more threads than I care to count.

Fucking know nothing blow hard. He contributes nothing of substance, but manages to annoy everyone in the process. He must be hell at a party.


Typical?

Let me demonstrate typical....and mind you, these are all just in the 2 weeks.

1. "The Cavs are middle of the league in 3 point shooting"
Ironically the idiot who said that then went on to defend it....even though the Cavs were 2nd in attempts AND % AND ahead of the Warriors in both categories.....yes...typical.

2. Washington shot 28% as team outside of Fultz.....I let this idiocy go because I was being nice. First, Washington was so bad because their coach was shortsighted....and they lost their 2 best players unexpectedly to the first round of the 2016 draft in Chriss and Murray. Next....As a team without Fultz they shot .44% in FG% over all. 49% from the 2 and 33.9 % from 3. You also mentioned his 3 point % considering the "high volume" he shot except that was also silly...the NCAA leader had almost 3 times the attempts. 3 TIMES!! In fact the 20 ranked player had double his total. He only averaged 5 attempts per game. So yeah...typical.

3. Noel the stud
Noel 2016 per game
20.5 MP 8.7 PPG .595 FG % .694 FT % 5.8 RPG 1 as 1.2 steals 1 block 1 to
Holmes 2016 per game
20.9 MP 9.8 PPG .558 FG% .699 FT% 5.5 RPG 1 as ,7 steals 1 block 1 to

But Noel is the untouchable guy who teams supposedly lined up for to trade a bounty for while the Sixers decided to give him away. Typical indeed.

Should I even start on the "They had a championship core and Ray Allen" silliness?

Now the difference is all of what I posted are facts which can be found on basketball reference.com....in other words, not opinion but verifiable fact.

Now here is where you spout off you rash of internet tough guy insults and do everything but disprove any of what I posted.

Have at Herc....but we both know who the pompous windbag is.....unless you can dispute any of what I said with something other than piss ant tough guy on a keyboard gibberish.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jun 21 2017, 02:58 PM) *
Had Simmons and Embid been healthy there would have been a 10-15 pick awaiting the Sixers.

Where is this 'fact' on basketball reference? Or are you desperately trying to move away from this subject which you've embarrassed yourself on?
The Franchise
I haven't paid much attention to this thread, but I'll say it was obvious we had to tank for a few years in order to get anywhere. Wake me up when we're contenders.
Joegrane
If you mean playoff contenders, you can wake up. Recall how well they played early this year.

QUOTE (The Franchise @ Jun 22 2017, 12:35 PM) *
I haven't paid much attention to this thread, but I'll say it was obvious we had to tank for a few years in order to get anywhere. Wake me up when we're contenders.

nephillymike
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jun 21 2017, 11:28 PM) *
You are right....because if the Sixers had a much better record the lottery odds would not have changed...oh wait...they would have....I merely point out that it was not some orderly plan...it was a lot of bad luck and good luck.

Ironically I found Bod Ford agrees with me...

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers...k-20170621.html

But you are right....Hinkie planned this all out...hell, he even was going to draft Fultz...and he expected "The Process" to last 4 years....or 5 years...I forget how long this fucking circus has gone on....

By the way...I would check out the Celtics before you dig that shithole any deeper....in 2014 they were 25-57 and had no "Championship core" The leading scorer was Jeff Green...did he win a championship? They were a mess. Ray Allen was gone 2 years at that point. And he wasn't traded for assets, he turned down their contract offer and signed with the Heat.

3 seasons ago they added IT and slowly built their team...well, compared to the Hinkie Process, they did it at warp speed. They did get an extra draft pick in 2014 and 2016 when they traded away Garnet et al. In that same time frame the Celts have had 10 first round draft picks...2 better than 16th. The Sixers have had 8 with 3 in the top 5. Noel was not drafted by the Sixers but went 6th so that would be a 9th first rounder and a fourth top ten pick. The Sixers have had 22 picks vs the Celtics 18 in spite of all the trades.

Not sure what team you are thinking of but I am pretty sure Mikey was talking about the Celtics.


Indeed it was the Celts.

Thanks, You saved me the research.

The research department is closed for the evening.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jun 22 2017, 07:28 PM) *
Indeed it was the Celts.

Thanks, You saved me the research.

The research department is closed for the evening.



Your welcome...it is amazing how much information the reference site for football leads to....everything from all the sports including splits for college football, basketball and all the major sports period.
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