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D Rock
This Guy Nails It….

A great read on how the top likely available picks fit on our Sixers.

I agree with his assessment of each player. My only disagreement is in the final order of his board. For me, I have Tatum completely off my board.

I'm also beginning to consider Monk preferable to Jackson.

The debate ultimately comes down to fit/need vs. BPA.

Thoughts?
nephillymike
Good stuff.

This type of in depth analysis makes this pick more difficult.

If I told you that we could drop down and pick up an asset or starting caliber player plus Monk, would you still have Monk 2nd?

For that reason, I think I do just that, pick Monk at 5, and get an asset or player for the move down and I'm on my way.

Without the trade down, I like his order for the Sixers.
nephillymike
Well, I looked at a few prospect rating sites, and by adding up the ranks of each of the prospects in play, you get a cumulative score, the lower the better. I also list their highest rank and lowest rank to give a feel for the range.

Here are the results based on six sites (Draftek, CBS, draft express, fox, sporting news, draft net)

Name...........Pts........best.......worst
Jackson........17...........2............3
Tatum...........26..........2.............7
Fox...............31..........4............8
Isaac............35.........5.............9
Smith...........39.........6............7
Monk............49........6.............9
Markanin.......54........7............11

So with 1&2 going to Fultz and Ball, that means consensus has Monk the 8th best prospect. Ouch!

Also, according to my trade chart, a one spot drop from 3-4, nets us the value of the 50th pick. 3 to 5 nets us the value of the 36 th pick and 3 to 6, nets us the value of the 29th pick.

My idea seems iffy at best with this info.

I don't know. Back to the game film...........
Joegrane
I'm not worried about making a complete team this year. I'm looking for BPA at a position of reasonable need--so excluding center and PF.

I agree with their "verdict." I don't want a PG who can't shoot.

"Josh Jackson, Malik Monk, Jayson Tatum, Jonathan Isaac, De’Aaron Fox"

"Jackson is hard to pass on simply because he brings so much to the table.
Philly can still find enough spacing by targeting a three-and-D point guard and a stroker at the opposite wing. "

I'll take my chances with Jackson because you hope they can fix his shooting mechanics well enough to be a #2 or #3 option on O. Until then you know you have a very solid defender with other NBA level skills and high motor. He seems to be a "Philly type of guy."

Frank Ntilikina from Europe is a good example of the type of PG that would fit with Simmons, the "3 and D" type of PG.

Ntilinka will probably go mid-high lottery. Maybe someone like him will be available next year with the Laker's pick

This is Draftexpresses' evaluation.

FRANK NTILIKINA, 6'5", 18.3 YEARS OLD,

Strengths:
-Strong physical tools for a point guard at 6'5
-Has exceptional length -Smooth athlete who can operate at different speeds
-Unselfish player who thinks the game at a high level
-Lockdown, multi-positional defender. Outstanding lateral quickness, footwork, timing, length and smarts allows him to smother opponents on the perimeter. Switches seamlessly between all three backcourt positions.
-Makes plays defensively on and off the ball. Reads the floor, knows the scouting report and where to position himself to rotate and help, far better than your average 18-year old.
-Excellent court vision, particularly in the pick and roll, where he's capable of making complex reads and delivering the ball decisively and accurately in tight spaces for easy baskets.
-Plays the game with impressive confidence and poise. -Significantly improved perimeter shooter, with feet set and especially off the bounce. Made shots at a very high rate all tournament long, with impressive volume, degree of difficulty and confidence. Has good touch, which lends itself to his ability to finish off the glass and convert from the free throw line.
-Made 17/29 3-pointers at the U18s and 12/13 FTs. Now 33/64 (52%) for 3 on the season in 27 games.

Weaknesses:
-Quiet guy who projects as more of a secondary option who excels playing off another elite-level shot-creator. Can get a bit passive or overly unselfish at times. Not exactly a take-over type mentality wise, even though he was forced to be that for France during this tournament. Better utilized as a versatile and intelligent piece alongside other good players rather than the hero who saves the day every time.
-Lacks a degree of quickness from a stand-still, making it difficult for him to emerge as a high-volume, take-over, one on one player who can create something out of nothing with the clock running down in the half-court.
-More smooth and pacey than powerful or explosive. Not going to rise up in a crowd and finish over defenders in traffic, making it difficult for him to finish everything he creates inside the paint at times. Can improve his ability to use his off hand for finishes.
-Ball-handling skills can continue to be tightened. Was bothered at times by intense ball-pressure as his dribble is somewhat high and loose. 4.8 turnovers per-40 at U18s - Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Frank-Ntilikina-77051/ ©DraftExpress



QUOTE (D Rock @ May 19 2017, 10:46 AM) *
This Guy Nails It….

A great read on how the top likely available picks fit on our Sixers.

I agree with his assessment of each player. My only disagreement is in the final order of his board. For me, I have Tatum completely off my board.

I'm also beginning to consider Monk preferable to Jackson.

The debate ultimately comes down to fit/need vs. BPA.

Thoughts?

D Rock
I'm not trading down or going BPA, if I'm running the sixers.

Joe, get your head around the idea of winning now. The Sixers WILL be in the playoffs this season.

Also, if anyone has seen Tatum play, they'd realize he doesn't fit this team. Tatum is this drafts Jahlil.

Ball dominant, mid-range scorers have no value in today's game. His ceiling is Gerald Henderson like.
Joegrane
I realize they will likely be in the playoffs this year as long as JE is reasonably healthy.

I want them to develop their young core this year. I don't want veterans taking up PT that the young core needs to grow.

I don't want them to sign a FA to make the team better this year. I'd rather that they leave a hole in the lineup that will cost them some games and get them a better pick. Then next year that hole will be apparent to free agents and make the Sixers a more attractive landing spot. They can't attract high-quality FAs now because there are too many questions about health and how the pieces fit.

I want them to sign an adequate number of veterans to provide leadership and mentoring for the young core, similar to what Ersan did last year for Saric.

QUOTE (D Rock @ May 20 2017, 09:53 AM) *
I'm not trading down or going BPA, if I'm running the sixers.

Joe, get your head around the idea of winning now. The Sixers WILL be in the playoffs this season.

Also, if anyone has seen Tatum play, they'd realize he doesn't fit this team. Tatum is this drafts Jahlil.

Ball dominant, mid-range scorers have no value in today's game. His ceiling is Gerald Henderson like.
nephillymike
QUOTE (D Rock @ May 20 2017, 09:53 AM) *
I'm not trading down or going BPA, if I'm running the sixers.

Joe, get your head around the idea of winning now. The Sixers WILL be in the playoffs this season.

Also, if anyone has seen Tatum play, they'd realize he doesn't fit this team. Tatum is this drafts Jahlil.

Ball dominant, mid-range scorers have no value in today's game. His ceiling is Gerald Henderson like.

I agree about win now.

Yeah and concern about needing the ball may be valid.

I am backing away from the trade down because of the lack of good value in return. However, we MUST sign a FA sharpshooter. If we can't get Riddick, then who?
D Rock
QUOTE (nephillymike @ May 20 2017, 06:43 PM) *
I agree about win now.

Yeah and concern about needing the ball may be valid.

I am backing away from the trade down because of the lack of good value in return. However, we MUST sign a FA sharpshooter. If we can't get Riddick, then who?

I think we're front runners for Redick. Korver could be an ok stop gap, but he'd likely have to back-up Bayless. Redick would start and push Bayless to the 2nd unit.

To Joe: the young guys are going to develop regardless. If anything, winning speeds up that developmental "process." I would think the only "veteran free agent" that would come here and start would be a 2, since it's unlikely we get that drafting 3rd. And philosophically, every time Joel steps on the court, the team has to be chasing the win. This team is no longer a non-starter for free agents. Those days are gone.
Joegrane
Do you want playoffs or a championship?

This team has the potential to eventually be champs.

The biggest factor will be the health of Joel E. If he is healthy next year, the team can attract an elite SG, the type that is needed to win it all.

Recall what happened in Miami with LeBron and out in LA. Several very good players agreed to join with the elite player to make a run. I don't know that the Sixers will attract the elite player without a healthy JE.

Right now they can attract a good SG. I don't want that. It is settling for an average girl when you have the potential to get a super model.

You might be surprised at my attitude in this area since I've been happy over the years with a 10-6 Eagles record and a playoff appearance. I don't care much that they don't have the SB rings. The Sixers are different because they have a special ceiling. Go for it all.

After I posted I came across this discussion on the same topic.
http://www.csnphilly.com/video/when-should...ate-free-agents

Of course if you can get the super model this year, great, but I assume there are too many questions at this time.

QUOTE (D Rock @ May 20 2017, 01:55 PM) *
I think we're front runners for Redick. Korver could be an ok stop gap, but he'd likely have to back-up Bayless. Redick would start and push Bayless to the 2nd unit.

To Joe: the young guys are going to develop regardless. If anything, winning speeds up that developmental "process." I would think the only "veteran free agent" that would come here and start would be a 2, since it's unlikely we get that drafting 3rd. And philosophically, every time Joel steps on the court, the team has to be chasing the win. This team is no longer a non-starter for free agents. Those days are gone.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Joegrane @ May 20 2017, 05:57 PM) *
Do you want playoffs or a championship?

This team has the potential to eventually be champs.

The biggest factor will be the health of Joel E. If he is healthy next year, the team can attract an elite SG, the type that is needed to win it all.

Recall what happened in Miami with LeBron and out in LA. Several very good players agreed to join with the elite player to make a run. I don't know that the Sixers will attract the elite player without a healthy JE.

Right now they can attract a good SG. I don't want that. It is settling for an average girl when you have the potential to get a super model.

You might be surprised at my attitude in this area since I've been happy over the years with a 10-6 Eagles record and a playoff appearance. I don't care much that they don't have the SB rings. The Sixers are different because they have a special ceiling. Go for it all.

After I posted I came across this discussion on the same topic.
http://www.csnphilly.com/video/when-should...ate-free-agents

Of course if you can get the super model this year, great, but I assume there are too many questions at this time.


Joe,

What do you think is the difference in lottery spot with next year's pick if we do it your way versus picking up Reddick and making a go? I assume we make the playoffs with a push. Maybe the 16th-18th pick? If we do it your way, what pick are we getting, 9th, 10th, 11 th?
Joegrane
I hear you about the difference not being huge. My main point is about attracting the best FA so they can aim for a championship rather than
for #2 in the East.

What if the experiment with Simmons playing the point on O does not work out? What if he never really develops an outside shot to keep defenses honest?

QUOTE (nephillymike @ May 20 2017, 06:26 PM) *
Joe,

What do you think is the difference in lottery spot with next year's pick if we do it your way versus picking up Reddick and making a go? I assume we make the playoffs with a push. Maybe the 16th-18th pick? If we do it your way, what pick are we getting, 9th, 10th, 11 th?

nephillymike
QUOTE (Joegrane @ May 20 2017, 08:38 PM) *
I hear you about the difference not being huge. My main point is about attracting the best FA so they can aim for a championship rather than
for #2 in the East.

What if the experiment with Simmons playing the point on O does not work out? What if he never really develops an outside shot to keep defenses honest?

In that case, there is still a need for Reddick, as we definitely would need outside shooting. Difference is, in 2018 draft, we need to draft a PG, and worse case scenario, may have the lesser 4 of Saric and Simmons coming off the bench. I don't think Simmons failure at PG makes a pick of Jackson the wrong pick, as even if we knew aSimmonscwould fail this year at PG, we would draft a PG this year and a SF next year. Same difference after two years.

As Al Davis would say: Just Win Baby!
D Rock
QUOTE (Joegrane @ May 21 2017, 01:38 AM) *
I hear you about the difference not being huge. My main point is about attracting the best FA so they can aim for a championship rather than
for #2 in the East.

What if the experiment with Simmons playing the point on O does not work out? What if he never really develops an outside shot to keep defenses honest?

JJ Redick represents "the best free agents" because of the current CBA. The way the salary cap allows for exceptions that let a team offer more money to their own players than other teams can, means fewer top level players will change addresses. The difference is stunning. Take Paul George, for example. Indy can offer him $20mil more than any other team, simply because he's already theirs. If he had made an All NBA team, that number would have jumped significantly higher.

Over the next years (however long the current CBA is in effect) a player would have to want to leave a team so badly that he'd be willing to leave tens of millions on the table. That's not going to happen a whole hell of a lot.

So guys like JJ Redick are going to be the best available on the free agent market for the foreseeable future. The days of building via attracting high end free agents are largely over.

The only way to get a legit all star today is by drafting them, developing them, or block-buster trades.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (D Rock @ May 21 2017, 07:10 PM) *
JJ Redick represents "the best free agents" because of the current CBA. The way the salary cap allows for exceptions that let a team offer more money to their own players than other teams can, means fewer top level players will change addresses. The difference is stunning. Take Paul George, for example. Indy can offer him $20mil more than any other team, simply because he's already theirs. If he had made an All NBA team, that number would have jumped significantly higher.

Over the next years (however long the current CBA is in effect) a player would have to want to leave a team so badly that he'd be willing to leave tens of millions on the table. That's not going to happen a whole hell of a lot.

So guys like JJ Redick are going to be the best available on the free agent market for the foreseeable future. The days of building via attracting high end free agents are largely over.

The only way to get a legit all star today is by drafting them, developing them, or block-buster trades.


As much as I bust your balls I have to admit...you know a hell of a lot about the NBA....I am not simpatico in your horse flesh evaluations from player to player (which is not to say you are wrong...we just differ on some players abilities) but you know the in and outs of the league, certainly a hell of a lot more than I do...I appreciate that.

Now don't tell a soul I said that...I'll deny it...lol
D Rock
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ May 22 2017, 12:02 AM) *
As much as I bust your balls I have to admit...you know a hell of a lot about the NBA....I am not simpatico in your horse flesh evaluations from player to player (which is not to say you are wrong...we just differ on some players abilities) but you know the in and outs of the league, certainly a hell of a lot more than I do...I appreciate that.

Now don't tell a soul I said that...I'll deny it...lol

Your secret is safe with me. Balls are made for busting.
nephillymike
QUOTE (D Rock @ May 21 2017, 06:10 PM) *
JJ Redick represents "the best free agents" because of the current CBA. The way the salary cap allows for exceptions that let a team offer more money to their own players than other teams can, means fewer top level players will change addresses. The difference is stunning. Take Paul George, for example. Indy can offer him $20mil more than any other team, simply because he's already theirs. If he had made an All NBA team, that number would have jumped significantly higher.

Over the next years (however long the current CBA is in effect) a player would have to want to leave a team so badly that he'd be willing to leave tens of millions on the table. That's not going to happen a whole hell of a lot.

So guys like JJ Redick are going to be the best available on the free agent market for the foreseeable future. The days of building via attracting high end free agents are largely over.

The only way to get a legit all star today is by drafting them, developing them, or block-buster trades.


Interesting. Last time I tried to read the NBA salary cap info, it was this exception, that exception and so on. Do you need to draft the player to be able to offer him the higher amount or can you get that right if you trade for him?

Also, as a fan of the NBA, would you prefer an NFL type hard cap, or the NBA version, or some other system?

One thing that always baffles me in this league, is I could want to trade player X for your player Y. But we normally have to throw in three more guys each, just to make the salaries fit. That's messed up.
Joegrane
Thanks, D Rock, I understand your point of view now. It is not what I wanted to hear but quite interesting.

QUOTE (D Rock @ May 21 2017, 06:10 PM) *
JJ Redick represents "the best free agents" because of the current CBA. The way the salary cap allows for exceptions that let a team offer more money to their own players than other teams can, means fewer top level players will change addresses. The difference is stunning. Take Paul George, for example. Indy can offer him $20mil more than any other team, simply because he's already theirs. If he had made an All NBA team, that number would have jumped significantly higher.

Over the next years (however long the current CBA is in effect) a player would have to want to leave a team so badly that he'd be willing to leave tens of millions on the table. That's not going to happen a whole hell of a lot.

So guys like JJ Redick are going to be the best available on the free agent market for the foreseeable future. The days of building via attracting high end free agents are largely over.

The only way to get a legit all star today is by drafting them, developing them, or block-buster trades.

D Rock
Would anyone consider trading pick #3 for Kristaps Porzingis?

Knicks Messing w KP

He'd be an ideal stretch 4 and would provide floor spacing, fantastic size, good defense, and excellent shooting. Would go very well with Redick at the 2.

Embiid, Porzingis, RoCo, Redick, Simmons would look very nice.

With Dario leading a 2nd unit with Holmes, TLC, Sauce/Bayless, Bayless/TJ.

Personally, I'd be all over that.
nephillymike
QUOTE (D Rock @ May 22 2017, 06:28 PM) *
Would anyone consider trading pick #3 for Kristaps Porzingis?

Knicks Messing w KP

He'd be an ideal stretch 4 and would provide floor spacing, fantastic size, good defense, and excellent shooting. Would go very well with Redick at the 2.

Embiid, Porzingis, RoCo, Redick, Simmons would look very nice.

With Dario leading a 2nd unit with Holmes, TLC, Sauce/Bayless, Bayless/TJ.

Personally, I'd be all over that.


Yep, but it would take at least another high 1st rounder. How much would you give up? Who do we have to offer that fits their offense?
D Rock
QUOTE (nephillymike @ May 22 2017, 11:46 PM) *
Yep, but it would take at least another high 1st rounder. How much would you give up? Who do we have to offer that fits their offense?

He's become persona non grata in Phil's house. I would bet they'd take #3 straight up in a second.

Phil is going all in on his triangle offense. None of the coaches OR players want it. It's going to be hilarious for years.

Open insubordination. Cutting ties with all remnants of the previous, player friendly staff. It's a shit show. I love it!

nephillymike
QUOTE (D Rock @ May 22 2017, 07:13 PM) *
He's become persona non grata in Phil's house. I would bet they'd take #3 straight up in a second.

Phil is going all in on his triangle offense. None of the coaches OR players want it. It's going to be hilarious for years.

Open insubordination. Cutting ties with all remnants of the previous, player friendly staff. It's a shit show. I love it!


If they would do it for the 3rd pick, yes sir, sign me up!

Did you see my question above about the cap?
D Rock
QUOTE (nephillymike @ May 22 2017, 01:31 AM) *
Interesting. Last time I tried to read the NBA salary cap info, it was this exception, that exception and so on. Do you need to draft the player to be able to offer him the higher amount or can you get that right if you trade for him?

Also, as a fan of the NBA, would you prefer an NFL type hard cap, or the NBA version, or some other system?

One thing that always baffles me in this league, is I could want to trade player X for your player Y. But we normally have to throw in three more guys each, just to make the salaries fit. That's messed up.

I didn't see this.

That's a great question. I'm not certain, but I think you can trade for those rights, or a slightly diminished version thereof. But as I said, I don't say that with great certainty. I think the league is motivated by a want to see teams retain their top stars, and prevent "buddies" getting together in a chosen big market.

I may be blinded by my sixers bias, but I love the exception. It was imposed as some protection against what the celts and heat did with their free agent super teams last decade. I think it great from a fan's perspective, to see home-grown talent have a legitimate financial incentive to stay. The CBA (unintentianally - I think) lent great credence to Hinkie's "process." It put us years ahead of a new game.

Fucking Celtics too. Bastards.

ETA: FUCKING CELTICS. DannyA gave them that great run (even I rooted for them vs Lakers) with the free-agent-super-team. Then FLEECED the Nets in trading them all away when they were done to instantly put them in the place we had to earn with 3 years of historical losing. That Martha Focker is either a full on Genius, or the luckiest SOB the league has ever seen.
D Rock
QUOTE (nephillymike @ May 23 2017, 01:29 AM) *
If they would do it for the 3rd pick, yes sir, sign me up!

Did you see my question above about the cap?

Maybe 3rd and our natural 2018 pick. If you need a kicker, we've got 2nd round picks hidden in every fucking corner of the globe. You like Korkmaz?

laugh.gif

Seriously, we are so set up with talent, just set to explode, and more assets than most (understatement of the day).

Only and idiot could screw this up.

Time it right: as the big guns mature, and the chemistry develops (I fully believe in BBrown), we should be peaking right as Lebron's tank hits 'E."

Outside of "SoCal Weather Man," the easiest job on the planet right now is "GM of the Sixers."

(my money is on Colangelo fucking it up)
Joegrane
I heard teams are not allowed to trade their 1st rounder 2 yrs in a row.

QUOTE (D Rock @ May 23 2017, 12:10 AM) *
Maybe 3rd and our natural 2018 pick. If you need a kicker, we've got 2nd round picks hidden in every fucking corner of the globe. You like Korkmaz?

...

D Rock
QUOTE (Joegrane @ May 23 2017, 02:52 PM) *
I heard teams are not allowed to trade their 1st rounder 2 yrs in a row.

You can't trade out of the first round 2 years in a row.

By trading up to 1, we are not "out" of the 1st round.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (D Rock @ May 23 2017, 11:03 AM) *
You can't trade out of the first round 2 years in a row.

By trading up to 1, we are not "out" of the 1st round.


The Stepien rule...Ted Stepien of Cleveland Cadavers fame....traded away 5 straight first round picks

The NBA has altered this rule somewhat but the basic framework still exists such that usually teams can't trade their first round pick 2 years in a row.
Joegrane
J Jackson = A Iguodala?

"Jackson could fit most any team right away because he can defend multiple positions. He's a menace for opposing wings and could be a two-way talent that makes the Sixers an extremely long squad in their starting lineup. His offense needs some work, but he improved his jump shot as his lone college season went on and there's no reason to think that he won't progress on the offensive end with more reps. The Ringer compared him to Andre Iguodala in his best-case scenario and that doesn't seem too absurd."

http://www.csnphilly.com/philadelphia-76er...nk-or-wing-no-3


If you are comparing JJ with AI I assume you are saying he will be a very good defender and just your second or third option on offense.
D Rock
QUOTE (Joegrane @ May 24 2017, 10:38 PM) *
J Jackson = A Iguodala?

"Jackson could fit most any team right away because he can defend multiple positions. He's a menace for opposing wings and could be a two-way talent that makes the Sixers an extremely long squad in their starting lineup. His offense needs some work, but he improved his jump shot as his lone college season went on and there's no reason to think that he won't progress on the offensive end with more reps. The Ringer compared him to Andre Iguodala in his best-case scenario and that doesn't seem too absurd."

http://www.csnphilly.com/philadelphia-76er...nk-or-wing-no-3


If you are comparing JJ with AI I assume you are saying he will be a very good defender and just your second or third option on offense.

Yup. That's a pretty accurate assessment. He looks a lot like Iggy. But his jumper, while not "knock-down" is better than Iggy's was coming out of college.
nephillymike
The talk around here today, spurred on by the report out of NY, is that the Sixers are very interested in PG's Smith and Fox at #3.

That is a concern.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ May 25 2017, 08:18 PM) *
The talk around here today, spurred on by the report out of NY, is that the Sixers are very interested in PG's Smith and Fox at #3.

That is a concern.


Why?.....I like Fox.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ May 25 2017, 08:48 PM) *
Why?.....I like Fox.

We need guys who can make teams pay for guarding Simmons on the drive and you do that by having a shooter who can bury the shot on the kick out. He's not a good enough shooter.
D Rock
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ May 26 2017, 01:48 AM) *
Why?.....I like Fox.

Can't shoot a lick.
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