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The Franchise
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Mar 25 2017, 04:05 PM) *


It's a combination of going 1-10 as a starter (his one win coming against the 4-12 Rams by one point), wanting ridiculous amounts of money for said performance, and for being a grandstanding prick. I doubt any owners want someone who got on the cover of Time magazine for 'protesting' while sucking at his job.

Every now and then a pro athlete comes along who you just can't wait to see go broke and end up on welfare, or doing infomercials to not starve. He is definitely one of those guys.
Joegrane
There is a third factor that could be involved. He might be perceived as a head-case, not someone you want leading your team, even as a backup. I'd expect that to be a bigger factor than the National Anthem issue itself. The NA issue might just be one example of the overall concern about his personality.

QUOTE (nephillymike @ Mar 25 2017, 03:05 PM) *

Zero
Too many people like to make judgement based on limited information. Fan's almost always have tip-of-the-iceberg information but think they have in-depth knowledge.

I don't think Kap is a bad guy, I think he may be the victim of bad influences. I read something about his political activist girlfriend and how she has influenced him. Do we know how he acts in the locker room, in the the classroom and how he practices? Is he a positive influence on the team or not? How much money does he expect to be paid?

A professional athlete has to be extremely focused during the season, especially quarterbacks who also need to be leaders. If politics distracted him from his football responsibilities, adversely affected his teammates and resulted in his declined play I wouldn't wonder that teams wouldn't jump to sign him. If he's expecting to be paid like a starter I wouldn't be surprised if nobody wanted him on their team.

But these are all questions, not fact. The facts are that his play has seriously declined at about the same time he took a controversial public political stance. I'm not surprised he's unemployed.
Dreagon
The dude's prospects had been slipping for a while....then he pulled out a cannon, took careful aim at his foot, and started blasting away.
Reality Fan
One thing they leave out is that he played on ateam with the worst defense which means they had to throw a lot which gave him more opportunity to run and throw against prevent defenses. He is a head case who was not well liked by teammates because he was aloof. His skills have diminished and he thinks he is worth a fortune and he decided to make a statement that was ill advised to say the least.

All those factors leave him where he is. If he was that good someone would take a shot with him but he isn't anymore. People forget that when they went to the SB their defense was ranked in the top 5 in points and yards. Same thing the next year.

He made his bed....now he gets to enjoy it.
Phits
Considering who the country elected as their 45th president, it should come as no surprise. Kap should have known better than to think he could voice his opinion (by a silent protest) in a league still run by the "old boys club".


QUOTE (nephillymike @ Mar 25 2017, 03:05 PM) *

Reality Fan
QUOTE (Phits @ Mar 27 2017, 05:23 PM) *
Considering who the country elected as their 45th president, it should come as no surprise. Kap should have known better than to think he could voice his opinion (by a silent protest) in a league still run by the "old boys club".


I love it.....when will people understand that the same freedom you espouse for him extends to others? He has every right to do whatever he wants....but there are consequences to every action for everyone. I love how that part is always left out. It is no different for anyone in the workforce. Stand up and disagree with management because you think it is the right thing to do....if you are a top performer you may survive. It is called life and it has nothing to do with the person elected president no matter how sadly you try to tie it into that tired line.

It does not help him that his coworkers were not fans of his either.
The Franchise
QUOTE (Phits @ Mar 27 2017, 04:23 PM) *
Considering who the country elected as their 45th president, it should come as no surprise. Kap should have known better than to think he could voice his opinion (by a silent protest) in a league still run by the "old boys club".


laugh.gif

Lots of players protested. The ones who don't suck at their jobs are still employed. And of course, there's the inconvenient fact that he only started his whole 'protest' after losing his job to Blaine Gabbert. I don't remember him giving too much of a shit about whatever he says he's protesting when he was going to the Super Bowl.

Phits
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Mar 27 2017, 06:19 PM) *
I love it.....when will people understand that the same freedom you espouse for him extends to others? He has every right to do whatever he wants....but there are consequences to every action for everyone. I love how that part is always left out. It is no different for anyone in the workforce. Stand up and disagree with management because you think it is the right thing to do....if you are a top performer you may survive. It is called life and it has nothing to do with the person elected president no matter how sadly you try to tie it into that tired line.

It's an indication of the racial climate in the good ol' US of A. Ignoring it does not make it go away. Of course, you can keep denying it, as if a problem doesn't exist. I wonder what if the statistics for hate crimes has increased since #45 took office? Have closeted racists or bigots found a safe space to spew their hate? Makes you say hmmm... Then again, for some people it just makes you say "stop the complaining, you brought it on yourself"

QUOTE (The Franchise @ Mar 27 2017, 06:25 PM) *
Lots of players protested. The ones who don't suck at their jobs are still employed. And of course, there's the inconvenient fact that he only started his whole 'protest' after losing his job to Blaine Gabbert. I don't remember him giving too much of a shit about whatever he says he's protesting when he was going to the Super Bowl.

Makes me wonder how many owners in the NFL are of the Donald Sterling ilk. You're right. He wasn't a good QB for a bad team. Maybe he isn't a good QB for any team, but his protest was not met with open arms and was frowned upon by many people including those who write the checks. Even if his protest was not genuine, a problem exists. Denying or labeling it just compounds the issue.

Zero
Seems to me that political dialog is better suited for G&G forum.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Phits @ Mar 27 2017, 08:24 PM) *
It's an indication of the racial climate in the good ol' US of A. Ignoring it does not make it go away. Of course, you can keep denying it, as if a problem doesn't exist. I wonder what if the statistics for hate crimes has increased since #45 took office? Have closeted racists or bigots found a safe space to spew their hate? Makes you say hmmm... Then again, for some people it just makes you say "stop the complaining, you brought it on yourself"


Makes me wonder how many owners in the NFL are of the Donald Sterling ilk. You're right. He wasn't a good QB for a bad team. Maybe he isn't a good QB for any team, but his protest was not met with open arms and was frowned upon by many people including those who write the checks. Even if his protest was not genuine, a problem exists. Denying or labeling it just compounds the issue.


In what world would protesting the National anthem would be embraced? You can trot out all the silliness you want but he chose a terrible venue for his protest. Without debating the rest of your rant which would take a book there is a bottom line to where and how you protest. If he did not have a history of being a loner and a malcontent who wore his headphones everywhere in the locker room seemingly ignoring his entire team he might have fared better but he is not good enough to overcome all the obstacles he erected. It has nothing to do with color, a bizarre claim to make in a league dominated by men of color.
samaroo
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Mar 28 2017, 10:54 AM) *
In what world would protesting the National anthem would be embraced? You can trot out all the silliness you want but he chose a terrible venue for his protest. Without debating the rest of your rant which would take a book there is a bottom line to where and how you protest. If he did not have a history of being a loner and a malcontent who wore his headphones everywhere in the locker room seemingly ignoring his entire team he might have fared better but he is not good enough to overcome all the obstacles he erected. It has nothing to do with color, a bizarre claim to make in a league dominated by men of color.


This is one of the stranger comments I've seen on here.
Zero
QUOTE (samaroo @ Mar 28 2017, 07:50 PM) *
This is one of the stranger comments I've seen on here.

I think what he's saying is that a person's workplace isn't the ideal place to protest.
Pila
QUOTE (Zero @ Mar 29 2017, 12:06 AM) *
I think what he's saying is that a person's workplace isn't the ideal place to protest.

Protesting has more to do with a platform to an audience than whether protesting has an ideal place for activism. If it were fit only insofar to the congeniality of convenience of the audience, it would be as good as doing nothing at all.

It's the agitation to the general population that makes it worth the label and principal of expressing grievance for an injustice.

If indeed, Kaep is being denied a role in the NFL because of his peaceful protest, then I think that's unfortunate, albeit not illegal. But it's unfortunate nonetheless.
D Rock
Personally, I have no problem with Kap's "protest."

Anyone who thinks he's a "grand standing prick" needs to get a fucking clue.

He was doing his thing for weeks, without a word from anybody. He didn't say a word until he was asked. That's not grand standing. Neither is the millions of $$$ he's donated to funding meals-on-wheels, and other causes he supports.

As for what he's "protesting"...

I personally feel we have a major problem with current policing practices around this country. If you don't, I'd be willing to bet the house that you are white.

Considering the number of teams with significant questions at the QB spot, the contracts given to guys like McCown et al, and Kap's history as a player (he did take a team to the NFC conf championship - and put up decent #s on a dog shit team last year) there is no question in my mind as to why he's currently unemployed.

Reality Fan
QUOTE (D Rock @ Mar 29 2017, 03:40 PM) *
Personally, I have no problem with Kap's "protest."

Anyone who thinks he's a "grand standing prick" needs to get a fucking clue.

He was doing his thing for weeks, without a word from anybody. He didn't say a word until he was asked. That's not grand standing. Neither is the millions of $$$ he's donated to funding meals-on-wheels, and other causes he supports.

As for what he's "protesting"...

I personally feel we have a major problem with current policing practices around this country. If you don't, I'd be willing to bet the house that you are white.

Considering the number of teams with significant questions at the QB spot, the contracts given to guys like McCown et al, and Kap's history as a player (he did take a team to the NFC conf championship - and put up decent #s on a dog shit team last year) there is no question in my mind as to why he's currently unemployed.



Shocking.....

Of course anyone who doesn't agree with you is a racist....facts be damned..

I don't have any problem with his protest at all.....I also don't have any problem with a company not hiring someone thay see as detrimental to their bottom line.

Action, reaction, consequence.

Pretty simple but you probably still think Ferguson was the cops fault. And I am sure you think that cops just shoot people for fun......of course ignored is the fact that many of the people killed were shot by minority cops but it is the white man that is evil...

Snowflakes are falling.....lol
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Pila @ Mar 29 2017, 03:14 PM) *
Protesting has more to do with a platform to an audience than whether protesting has an ideal place for activism. If it were fit only insofar to the congeniality of convenience of the audience, it would be as good as doing nothing at all.

It's the agitation to the general population that makes it worth the label and principal of expressing grievance for an injustice.

If indeed, Kaep is being denied a role in the NFL because of his peaceful protest, then I think that's unfortunate, albeit not illegal. But it's unfortunate nonetheless.


I don't mind protesting but I scratch my head about the selectivity......with all the social issues that should garber some of their efforts I think it is in bad taste to choose the path he did.
Zero
QUOTE (D Rock @ Mar 29 2017, 03:40 PM) *
I personally feel we have a major problem with current policing practices around this country. If you don't, I'd be willing to bet the house that you are white.

There are many non-white people who disagree with that. The police are like any other vocation, there are good and there are bad. While people want to make the bad about race, statistics seem say something different.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Zero @ Mar 29 2017, 04:47 PM) *
There are many non-white people who disagree with that. The police are like any other vocation, there are good and there are bad. While people want to make the bad about race, statistics seem say something different.


Amen Z well said...you racist...lolol
Pila
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Mar 29 2017, 08:21 PM) *
I don't mind protesting but I scratch my head about the selectivity......with all the social issues that should garber some of their efforts I think it is in bad taste to choose the path he did.

I feel the same way about some of the others, but I value the prerogative more than my own biased judgment.
Pila
QUOTE (Zero @ Mar 29 2017, 08:47 PM) *
There are many non-white people who disagree with that. The police are like any other vocation, there are good and there are bad. While people want to make the bad about race, statistics seem say something different.

That's true insofar as the individual goes (general laws of averages), but institutionally there are disconcerting trends, the move to militarize (post mortem, really), a circle of the wagons mentality and the refusal to release information of its inner records to civil watchdog organizations. Saying nothing of civil rights overreaches like the use of the force in entrapment like projects as a revenue generating machine to fund local expenditure projects, including unconstitutional property seizure programs.

In addition, there's a long-standing legacy of institutional racism that between us one may be more prone to dismiss more quickly than the other. I don't know which one of us is closer to the truth, but I know our inclination would change if we walked just a bit in eachother's shoes.
Zero
QUOTE (Pila @ Mar 29 2017, 05:17 PM) *
In addition, there's a long-standing legacy of institutional racism that between us one may be more prone to dismiss more quickly than the other. I don't know which one of us is closer to the truth, but I know our inclination would change if we walked just a bit in each other's shoes.
This is true, always. We only truly know the world through our own eyes and our own experiences.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Pila @ Mar 29 2017, 05:17 PM) *
That's true insofar as the individual goes (general laws of averages), but institutionally there are disconcerting trends, the move to militarize (post mortem, really), a circle of the wagons mentality and the refusal to release information of its inner records to civil watchdog organizations. Saying nothing of civil rights overreaches like the use of the force in entrapment like projects as a revenue generating machine to fund local expenditure projects, including unconstitutional property seizure programs.

In addition, there's a long-standing legacy of institutional racism that between us one may be more prone to dismiss more quickly than the other. I don't know which one of us is closer to the truth, but I know our inclination would change if we walked just a bit in eachother's shoes.


I have had the privilege of playing for the APD in some charity basketball games over the last several years. The chief became a friend of mine, he is now the chief in Fort Worth, Joel Fitzgerald. Great guy, and he gave a me a lot of great insight as we sat drinking Patron after games. Policing has evolved so much and the interaction in the inner city is so different than just 5-10 years ago. Joel was a a Philly drug cop in a prior life and will likely someday take the top job in Philly...he is Ramsey's godson. He sees things a bit differently. He is a huge proponent of community involvement but also favors the boot in the ass. What you describe sounds like the speed trap in Mayberry.
The Franchise
QUOTE (D Rock @ Mar 29 2017, 02:40 PM) *
Anyone who thinks he's a "grand standing prick" needs to get a fucking clue.


He lost his job to Blaine freaking Gabbert. A couple days later he sat during the National Anthem. He wasn't in uniform the first two games and didn't play, so it isn't surprising nobody noticed or cared. It was the 3rd preseason game when he started getting the attention he craved. That's pretty much the definition of 'grandstanding.' And personally, people who grandstand are inherently pricks. So I stand by that statement. If he started doing this in the Super Bowl when he was on top of the world, I would at least not be questioning his motives.
Pila
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Mar 30 2017, 04:02 AM) *
I have had the privilege of playing for the APD in some charity basketball games over the last several years. The chief became a friend of mine, he is now the chief in Fort Worth, Joel Fitzgerald. Great guy, and he gave a me a lot of great insight as we sat drinking Patron after games. Policing has evolved so much and the interaction in the inner city is so different than just 5-10 years ago. Joel was a a Philly drug cop in a prior life and will likely someday take the top job in Philly...he is Ramsey's godson. He sees things a bit differently. He is a huge proponent of community involvement but also favors the boot in the ass. What you describe sounds like the speed trap in Mayberry.

Undoubtedly there are many great people in the police forces of America. America is a giant country and it isn't difficult to imagine well run departments who serve the public they're entrusted to protect in good faith.

But I argue that in many of them there is a disconnect between the job they're trying to do and the impression the public has of them mainly because of an isolation mentality, an air immune to scrutiny, and one where the preservation of the agency takes priority over the public's interest. It gives the impression it does not care to offer the effort to gain the trust long lost to those that have historically suffered under its abuse.

I know policing is a difficult, thankless job. I'm just not sure its general attitude with the public's demands for transparency, genuine concerns of abuses and harassment, both in the micro sense and that of policy, is making it any easier. I get the impression it prefers to double down rather than try a new approach.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Pila @ Mar 30 2017, 07:26 AM) *
Undoubtedly there are many great people in the police forces of America. America is a giant country and it isn't difficult to imagine well run departments who serve the public they're entrusted to protect in good faith.

But I argue that in many of them there is a disconnect between the job they're trying to do and the impression the public has of them mainly because of an isolation mentality, an air immune to scrutiny, and one where the preservation of the agency takes priority over the public's interest. It gives the impression it does not care to offer the effort to gain the trust long lost to those that have historically suffered under its abuse.

I know policing is a difficult, thankless job. I'm just not sure its general attitude with the public's demands for transparency, genuine concerns of abuses and harassment, both in the micro sense and that of policy, is making it any easier. I get the impression it prefers to double down rather than try a new approach.


so how do you explain the "snitches get stitches" mentality not only well reported on in Philly but lauded at times?

Is that the fault of police as well?

The problem I see is that the public perception steered by the left wants the police to be the bad guy until they are in trouble then they complain that the police are not there to save them. Urban policing is a difficult job....it is where most violent crime happens and shapes the response by police who are far more likely to encounter violent offenders. But that is just another thing no one can talk about witout being a racist. It is as if the police respond to a call and the birds are singing and people are running out and asking how they can help and the offenders put their hands up and say "please arrest me" and the police check to see if they have killed their quota for the month and if they haven't they shoot.

I mentioned it before....Ferguson.....where are all the people who moaned about the evil cop? Obama's DOJ went in there with a verdict looking for a crime and came away having to admit the guy attacked the cop but still news channels talk about it as if the cop was the bad guy, not the repeat offender who assaulted him. And you still hear that idiotic "hands up, don't shoot" bullshit.

I don't disagree that there are some bad cops....and I agree that there is a discussion to be had to better weed them out before harm is done.....what I want to know is when is there a time for a real discussion about fixing the problems in the inner city without tiptoeing around the actual problems to remain politically correct?
Zero
Our wars are now being managed by lawyers, and it's not too different with police. I'm not anywhere near suggesting that police shouldn't abide by the law(s), only noting that their job is made that much more difficult when they are playing by different rules than the other guy ... irrelevant what the other guy looks like.

When working in high crime, violent areas I can't imagine the stress they endure to walk the line. It should be no surprise to anyone that the line is crossed on occasion. What's surprising to me is the lack of empathy for the men and women who are in those situations as compared to what is given to the perpetrators.

How often do we read about the injustice police have wrought on suspects and criminals and how often are the victims an after thought? How often do we see police damned for mistakes while law abiding citizens cower behind their doors? Society absolutely needs to hold law enforcement accountable but we also need to have a balanced view of what their job entails.

I don't think this is as much about race as it is about environment. Without looking at statistics, I'd guess the most violent, highest crime areas are where there is the highest population concentration. I'd also guess that the criminal element in those areas is a significant minority of the population. If all of that is true, I'm confused how this is about race.
Pila
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Mar 30 2017, 01:04 PM) *
so how do you explain the "snitches get stitches" mentality not only well reported on in Philly but lauded at times?

Is that the fault of police as well?

The problem I see is that the public perception steered by the left wants the police to be the bad guy until they are in trouble then they complain that the police are not there to save them. Urban policing is a difficult job....it is where most violent crime happens and shapes the response by police who are far more likely to encounter violent offenders. But that is just another thing no one can talk about witout being a racist. It is as if the police respond to a call and the birds are singing and people are running out and asking how they can help and the offenders put their hands up and say "please arrest me" and the police check to see if they have killed their quota for the month and if they haven't they shoot.

I mentioned it before....Ferguson.....where are all the people who moaned about the evil cop? Obama's DOJ went in there with a verdict looking for a crime and came away having to admit the guy attacked the cop but still news channels talk about it as if the cop was the bad guy, not the repeat offender who assaulted him. And you still hear that idiotic "hands up, don't shoot" bullshit.

I don't disagree that there are some bad cops....and I agree that there is a discussion to be had to better weed them out before harm is done.....what I want to know is when is there a time for a real discussion about fixing the problems in the inner city without tiptoeing around the actual problems to remain politically correct?

I think we've already agreed that policing is difficult and thankless and that it is in large part done well. When it's done well, it goes unnoticed. That is the nature of a job entrusted with power not afforded the citizenry. Because of that, it must always come at the expense of fearless, fierce scrutiny, often and even if it's undeserved. Civil liberty hinges on that.

I appreciate you conceding that there's a discussion to be had about abuses and protectionist policies of less-than-stellar POs. In fact, I think we're doing precisely that. I'm not aware that our arguments thus far have turned facetious or intellectually dishonest, so I'm not entirely sure why it was necessary to mention political correctness or the fear of being branded a racist... or even the fact that crime-ridden areas engage in fuliginous etiquette isn't a problem... but isn't the problem exponentially Nth fold when Police Departments do it also? Should we not hold POs to a higher standard than what we've come to expect from the corrupt character of the criminal mind? Total non-sequitur between our exchanges.

I argue that it is far better that we have a demanding, spoiled citizenry that challenge authority, force it to justify its actions each and every single time than a docile, indoctrinated, blind and obedient, subjugated mass. In which case, I believe fundamentally that the entrusted authority must come to terms with the fact that these difficulties and even often and frequent unfair scrutiny is a fundamental necessity of the nature of their profession. So, it is incumbent that the prevailing, general attitude shift significantly from one of isolationism to one more willing to answer to those it serves.
D Rock
QUOTE (Zero @ Mar 29 2017, 09:47 PM) *
There are many non-white people who disagree with that. The police are like any other vocation, there are good and there are bad. While people want to make the bad about race, statistics seem say something different.

Care to back that statement up with something beyond conjecture?

The difference is that most "vocations" are not left to self examine and weed out their own "bad."
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Pila @ Mar 30 2017, 09:59 AM) *
I think we've already agreed that policing is difficult and thankless and that it is in large part done well. When it's done well, it goes unnoticed. That is the nature of a job entrusted with power not afforded the citizenry. Because of that, it must always come at the expense of fearless, fierce scrutiny, often and even if it's undeserved. Civil liberty hinges on that.

I appreciate you conceding that there's a discussion to be had about abuses and protectionist policies of less-than-stellar POs. In fact, I think we're doing precisely that. I'm not aware that our arguments thus far have turned facetious or intellectually dishonest, so I'm not entirely sure why it was necessary to mention political correctness or the fear of being branded a racist... or even the fact that crime-ridden areas engage in fuliginous etiquette isn't a problem... but isn't the problem exponentially Nth fold when Police Departments do it also? Should we not hold POs to a higher standard than what we've come to expect from the corrupt character of the criminal mind? Total non-sequitur between our exchanges.

I argue that it is far better that we have a demanding, spoiled citizenry that challenge authority, force it to justify its actions each and every single time than a docile, indoctrinated, blind and obedient, subjugated mass. In which case, I believe fundamentally that the entrusted authority must come to terms with the fact that these difficulties and even often and frequent unfair scrutiny is a fundamental necessity of the nature of their profession. So, it is incumbent that the prevailing, general attitude shift significantly from one of isolationism to one more willing to answer to those it serves.


The reason I mentioned the issues in the inner city is because that is where a great many "incidents" occur. It is not as if police responding to calls there show up to a church social. They are, more often than not, treated as the enemy upon arrival and get little or no help from the citizenry. How you equate the misconduct of a microcosm of police forces to the general lawlessness of sections of the inner city is a tad mind boggling. Police are held to a higher standard while the "citizenry" are held to no standard at all.

I agree that police need to be held accountable when they cross the line and face criminal charges. Where I have an issue is when they are guilty until proven innocent as has happened in many of the incidents that form the basis for the entire movement. I fully support civilian oversight and serious punishment but I disagree with the rush to judgement based on the news cycle.
Zero
QUOTE (D Rock @ Mar 30 2017, 10:24 AM) *
Care to back that statement up with something beyond conjecture?

The difference is that most "vocations" are not left to self examine and weed out their own "bad."

I'm guessing you mean the first part when you refer to conjecture. There are many well known conservative blacks who disagree with you: Larry Elder, Herman Cain, Thomas Sowell, Condoleezza Rice, Allen West are examples. And, not meaning to be inflammatory, but if we include conservatives in our news feed and search criteria we find there are many average black citizens who also disagree. I think our position on this most likely reflects our political perspective more than anything else.

Aren't the legal community and the medical community both expected to self examine and weed out the bad? I'm not sure how successful they are, but I think most cops are hard working, dedicated and honest. I also think there are bad cops just like there are bad doctors and dishonest lawyers.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Zero @ Mar 30 2017, 04:20 PM) *
I'm guessing you mean the first part when you refer to conjecture. There are many well known conservative blacks who disagree with you: Larry Elder, Herman Cain, Thomas Sowell, Condoleezza Rice, Allen West are examples. And, not meaning to be inflammatory, but if we include conservatives in our news feed and search criteria we find there are many average black citizens who also disagree. I think our position on this most likely reflects our political perspective more than anything else.

Aren't the legal community and the medical community both expected to self examine and weed out the bad? I'm not sure how successful they are, but I think most cops are hard working, dedicated and honest. I also think there are bad cops just like there are bad doctors and dishonest lawyers.


or hypocrites and dreamers in the entertainment industry..... devil03.gif blah.gif blah.gif
nephillymike
QUOTE (Zero @ Mar 30 2017, 07:43 AM) *
Our wars are now being managed by lawyers, and it's not too different with police. I'm not anywhere near suggesting that police shouldn't abide by the law(s), only noting that their job is made that much more difficult when they are playing by different rules than the other guy ... irrelevant what the other guy looks like.

When working in high crime, violent areas I can't imagine the stress they endure to walk the line. It should be no surprise to anyone that the line is crossed on occasion. What's surprising to me is the lack of empathy for the men and women who are in those situations as compared to what is given to the perpetrators.

How often do we read about the injustice police have wrought on suspects and criminals and how often are the victims an after thought? How often do we see police damned for mistakes while law abiding citizens cower behind their doors? Society absolutely needs to hold law enforcement accountable but we also need to have a balanced view of what their job entails.

I don't think this is as much about race as it is about environment. Without looking at statistics, I'd guess the most violent, highest crime areas are where there is the highest population concentration. I'd also guess that the criminal element in those areas is a significant minority of the population. If all of that is true, I'm confused how this is about race.


The press and others Making it about race is a convenient, lazy cop out.

It is easy to point out a persons color or ethnicity as the cause of a problem.

Doing so makes it a helpless situation as nobody can change their color or ethnicity and they are not in control of the cause.

However, break situations down into qualitative groupings and the action plan changes:

One parent homes
School attendance
having kids out of wedlock
Selling/using drugs

Break down criminality by these factors and you will find the real causes and that those causes are under the control of every ethnic group. They are choices made by individuals and their parents and those choices have consequences as opposed to the race or ethnic group of an individual.

Pila
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Mar 30 2017, 07:16 PM) *
The reason I mentioned the issues in the inner city is because that is where a great many "incidents" occur. It is not as if police responding to calls there show up to a church social. They are, more often than not, treated as the enemy upon arrival and get little or no help from the citizenry. How you equate the misconduct of a microcosm of police forces to the general lawlessness of sections of the inner city is a tad mind boggling. Police are held to a higher standard while the "citizenry" are held to no standard at all.

I agree that police need to be held accountable when they cross the line and face criminal charges. Where I have an issue is when they are guilty until proven innocent as has happened in many of the incidents that form the basis for the entire movement. I fully support civilian oversight and serious punishment but I disagree with the rush to judgement based on the news cycle.

Yes, I think it's fair to expect professionals empowered to use force, lethal force, over the citizenry to uphold a higher standard in moral etiquette in the interest of the public trust than compared to a citizen. With greater power comes greater expectations.

In the end, were already had this discussion, so we're just rehashing old arguments. To conclude, I'll say only that I personally not inclined to believe Kaep is being punished by all 32 owners. It's possible, and I wouldn't find it difficult to believe there might be a Jerry Jones or two willing to employ wife beaters and murderers but are outraged by a peaceful protest. But the overwhelming majority just want to win. If Kaep had a convincing skill set, I'm convinced he'd be on a roster.
Phits
I wonder if George Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon Martin because he was from a one parent home or had poor school attendance or had a kid out of wedlock or because he was selling/using drugs?

Ignoring the race issue in America or failing to recognize the (systematic) root cause(s) that have been formulated over decades/centuries is the real problem.


QUOTE (nephillymike @ Mar 30 2017, 08:45 PM) *
The press and others Making it about race is a convenient, lazy cop out.

It is easy to point out a persons color or ethnicity as the cause of a problem.

Doing so makes it a helpless situation as nobody can change their color or ethnicity and they are not in control of the cause.

However, break situations down into qualitative groupings and the action plan changes:

One parent homes
School attendance
having kids out of wedlock
Selling/using drugs

Break down criminality by these factors and you will find the real causes and that those causes are under the control of every ethnic group. They are choices made by individuals and their parents and those choices have consequences as opposed to the race or ethnic group of an individual.

Reality Fan
QUOTE (Phits @ Mar 30 2017, 10:42 PM) *
I wonder if George Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon Martin because he was from a one parent home or had poor school attendance or had a kid out of wedlock or because he was selling/using drugs?

Ignoring the race issue in America or failing to recognize the (systematic) root cause(s) that have been formulated over decades/centuries is the real problem.


No...I am pretty sure he did it because he was an insecure idiot goaded into it by a poorly raised and supervised teen. Nevermind that he was of mixed race himself....that part never mattered...only the race of the "innocent" victim.....but partial reporting is the norm and is selective recounting of the events. And I agree...ignoring race is a root cause....like ignoring the background of the "victims", the actions taken by the "victims" and the race of those officers who employed deadly force or poor judgement as well as the fellacious reporting of events by the media to sensationalize events to promote the race issue. Take the events in Baltimore.....it wasn't until the trial for the officers that frame by frame evidence of the van driving helped exonerate them and prove the media reports were full of shit. (not to mention that 3 of the 6 officers charged were...you guessed it...african american.....kind of hurts the race narrative)
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Pila @ Mar 30 2017, 09:57 PM) *
Yes, I think it's fair to expect professionals empowered to use force, lethal force, over the citizenry to uphold a higher standard in moral etiquette in the interest of the public trust than compared to a citizen. With greater power comes greater expectations.

In the end, were already had this discussion, so we're just rehashing old arguments. To conclude, I'll say only that I personally not inclined to believe Kaep is being punished by all 32 owners. It's possible, and I wouldn't find it difficult to believe there might be a Jerry Jones or two willing to employ wife beaters and murderers but are outraged by a peaceful protest. But the overwhelming majority just want to win. If Kaep had a convincing skill set, I'm convinced he'd be on a roster.


I am with you....I don't think it has anything to do with anything other than most teams don't feel that his abilities outweigh the distractions he will bring from his moody, me first attitude and isolation from his teammates to his poor choice in his actions and statements. He would be a marketing nightmare. He is not good enough to offset that.
Pila
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Mar 31 2017, 05:04 AM) *
I am with you....I don't think it has anything to do with anything other than most teams don't feel that his abilities outweigh the distractions he will bring from his moody, me first attitude and isolation from his teammates to his poor choice in his actions and statements. He would be a marketing nightmare. He is not good enough to offset that.

I don't think he's a good player.

Insofar as his character I know nothing about it, but I recognize his willingness to make a statement. Especially when it is certain to bring fierce critique and even a potential of professional consequences.

The movement, if you can call it that, got guys of proven integrity like Malcolm Jenkins to initiate dialogue with police agencies in Philly. Good things happen when there are willing parties open to greater understanding. In this case alone, Kaep's activism resulted in a positive step forward in closing a gap between concern citizens and authority in Philly.

We need more of that, not less.
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