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D Rock
Damnit I want Sam Hinkie back. He was accused of being an idiot for turning lousy players into 2nd round picks.

Bryan? He turns GOOD players into 2nd round picks.

WTF?!?!?!?

mad.gif mad.gif mad.gif

And Jahlil is still here?????

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK
Joegrane
I hear you. The only thing I can think of is that the Sixers got wind of huge interest by some other team. They were planning to dump a huge and long contract on Nerlens that the Sixers were not willing to match.

Colangelo did not want to tie up that kind of $ on a backup C because he wants to use it next year to attract an elite FA wing or SG. So he took what he could for Nerlens.

I would have preferred to have Nerlens for another year to see how Embiid's health holds up while playing every day. Nerlens can be a solid starting C, not Okafor.

How does the restricted FA work in the NBA? Do the Sixers just have to match the other team's $ for one year then Nerlens becomes an unrestricted FA the following year?

If so, could Collangelo be hoping to woo a big name FA wing this year? It seems a year early for that, especially if the Sixers don't get the LA pick.

Hopefully the Sixers can help Justin Anderson to develop on offense and become a solid wing in the rotation. He'll get more of an opportunity here than he was getting in Dallas.

D Rock
I think you give BC way too much credit.

This guy is a fucking IDIOT.

Nerlens for a wing defender with absolutely no jumper and a pair of 2nd round picks is simply ridiculous.

Anderson's mid-range shooting % on the season is 8% (EIGHT PERCENT). He makes TJ look like a knock-down shooter.

And we still have Jahlil "what IS defense" Okafor. I would have rather just straight CUT Okafor.

I've said all along, that I'd be happy with trading both NN and Jah. But the return on Noel is nothing short of insulting.

Bryan "my daddy hired me for every job I've ever had" Colangelo should be fired and strung up for this FIASCO. Now we're supposed to trust this FUCKING DOUCHE BAG DADDY'S BOY to guide us through the most important draft the franchise has had in 25 years?

Fuck That.

I've been saying for 2 years now...

"the only thing that could derail the process at this point is JoJo's health, or Bryan Colangelo."

At least we know which way it's going to go...
Reality Fan
While I am not sure the value of Justin Anderson who is apparently looked on by some scouts as a very high side defender the bottom line is that Noel will get likely get starter money in the off season, something the Sixers will not pay him. In the NBA that means the Sixers get nothing when he signs with another team. They could hope for a sign and trade but there is no guarantee and their return on it is likely to be similar or less than what they got. There is some fantasy world where the return on some of these trade scenarios far exceed what the real world actually offers. If I had to guess and it is only a guess they took what they could get for Noel and plan to feature Okafor as much as they can to restore what value they can for him in the trade market. It is not a sexy deal and not a popular one but likely the best they were going to get.
Joegrane
This is not a sign and trade situation, correct? So the Mavs are only giving the Sixers compensation for a 1.3 year rental of NN, and presumably an advantage in getting him to sign long term.

QUOTE (D Rock @ Feb 23 2017, 02:39 PM) *
Damnit I want Sam Hinkie back. He was accused of being an idiot for turning lousy players into 2nd round picks.

Bryan? He turns GOOD players into 2nd round picks.

WTF?!?!?!?

mad.gif mad.gif mad.gif

And Jahlil is still here?????

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK

nephillymike
Well, I am going to be hypocritical.

I was concerned that our play would appreciate to the point our draft spot would plummet.

I am concerned no more. We gave away good contributors for squatah. And.....

Embiid is out for at least the next four games. With a bone bruise that is swelling. Yeah right, it's the tear thats swelling, not the bruise.

We have protected the tank.

And I know the fact that I wanted to see good basketball has now gone. I think we win no more than 8 games the rest of the way.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Joegrane @ Feb 23 2017, 07:45 PM) *
This is not a sign and trade situation, correct? So the Mavs are only giving the Sixers compensation for a 1.3 year rental of NN, and presumably an advantage in getting him to sign long term.


he is a restricted FA after this season
D Rock
We have more than enough cap room to sign NN to starters money. Not that it would have taken that, but we could have done it with no negative ramifications to the cap.

And if you wanna talk Jojo insurance, Okafor is not that. Noel on the other hand would have been.

As it pertains to the draft, our own pick should have been meaningless. With Boogie gone and Gay out for the year, we know the Sacto pick would have been top 5. Now, we'll probably be earlier, thus rendering the right to trade picks nul and void. Another wasted asset. Add to that the fact that LAL traded Lou Williams, and we're assured the Laker pick wont convey either. Another lost asset.

Ultimately, Bryan Colangelo has done nothing for this franchise but piss away asset after asset. We were set-up to build a Philly basketball dynasty. And Douche Bag Daddy's Boy has made it more likely that our ceiling has been lowered to perennial 6-8 seed, first round playoff out. Precisely what the process was designed to avoid.

The process was built, and was nearly indestructible. But Bryan Colangelo has proven that he could fuck up a stainless steel ball.

No move would have been a better move. He seemingly has no concept of "team" and chemistry. I've got $100 that says this moronic asshat goes and drafts Dennis Smith too.

FUCKING IDIOT!
D Rock
This says it well...

F U Bryan
nephillymike
A few points:

1. You, and most others, thought we should move both Noel and Okafor. I was leaning toward we need a backup for the perennially injured center camp, and like others didn't think Okafor could fill that role. So, if you and most others are correct, we could move Okafor at the draft and get a decent deal. I say let's wait to see what happens then before we run BC out of town.

2. "Worst" case, we had to pay max deal to Noel. So what? Maybe we couldn't eat as many contacts in a trade like we've been for people that never play a minute for our team. Big deal. And with the cap going up, it will seem like a lot less money in two years.

3. When Saint Sam the Tank drafted/traded for three centers in three years and whose only worthwhile 2nd round pick was also a center, he set the devaluation in motion. If not for Embiid's injuries this year, that depreciation in value would have been greater. SOME of this is on him.

4. On a unrelated note I've never heard anyone mention that the fact that you can't roll the unused NBA cap into future years severely limits the Tank. Instead of getting better picks and more cap to spend like we do in the NFL, we just get better picks. When the unfit for the process rate is so high, it limits our benefit. This is huge IMO.
D Rock
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Feb 24 2017, 12:32 PM) *
A few points:

1. You, and most others, thought we should move both Noel and Okafor. I was leaning toward we need a backup for the perennially injured center camp, and like others didn't think Okafor could fill that role. So, if you and most others are correct, we could move Okafor at the draft and get a decent deal. I say let's wait to see what happens then before we run BC out of town.

2. "Worst" case, we had to pay max deal to Noel. So what? Maybe we couldn't eat as many contacts in a trade like we've been for people that never play a minute for our team. Big deal. And with the cap going up, it will seem like a lot less money in two years.

3. When Saint Sam the Tank drafted/traded for three centers in three years and whose only worthwhile 2nd round pick was also a center, he set the devaluation in motion. If not for Embiid's injuries this year, that depreciation in value would have been greater. SOME of this is on him.

4. On a unrelated note I've never heard anyone mention that the fact that you can't roll the unused NBA cap into future years severely limits the Tank. Instead of getting better picks and more cap to spend like we do in the NFL, we just get better picks. When the unfit for the process rate is so high, it limits our benefit. This is huge IMO.

1. I said I was "open to" trading both Noel and Jah. Not that we "should." False equivalence. I NEVER said we should give away Noel for a handful of beans (non-magic). I'd give away Jah, but Noel is a legit top 10 defensive center.

2. I agree. I would have no problem matching whatever contract the market would have offered Noel as a restricted free agent.

3. Sam wanted Wiggins and Deangelo. He got Embiid and Okafor. One can only control what they can control. If I could control lottery balls, I'd be retired. Despite those pesky balls, we did manage to bring in 2 transcendent players. 3 would have been nice, again... those damn balls. Not only did it bring us Joel and Ben, but played right, we could land a 3rd this year. Who would be more valuable as a draft day trade chip? Jah or Nerlens? At this point, Jah's ridiculous lack of effort on D and on the glass have rendered him worthless in today's league. That's not on Sam.

4. This point, coming from you, baffles me. You can't compare roster building in the NBA to the NFL in any way. They are two different animals entirely. I would think you'd get that more than most as our resident numbers guy. First, rolling unused cap into future years, is a despicable practice. And in the nba their is no hard cap. Teams are free to spend all they like, but do have to pay a luxury tax on expenditures over "the cap." So too, they distribute dollars below the salary floor evenly amongst those on their roster. Second, analytics has real value in the NBA. The reason analytics doesn't work in the NFL always comes down to sample size. It's hard to compile meaningful data when you're limited to 16 games a year. According to literally ALL analytic standards, Noel had developed into a beast. Hinkie liked data. Colangelo prefers "the eye test." The fact that Colangelo overvalues Okafor (who sucks) and undervalued Noel (who is seriously legit) is nothing short of alarming. Like I said.... he has single handedly lowered the ceiling of all Hinkie's tanking efforts to precisely the level of "success" the process was intended for us to avoid. Mark my words... With Colangelo at the healm, we'll never get past a 6-8 seed in the playoffs and be an easy out for the Celts.
D Rock
Read
Joegrane
Even if the Lakers drop to #2 there still is something like a 40% chance, no? I thought I read that recently. They also said that LA is not going to have the worst record.

Nerlens was not going to stay here. He is a starter. The Sixers have to roll the dice with JE. If he does not stay healthy, the Process will likely have the result you described. However I think their success in January suggests what will happen to this organization if JE is relatively healthy and they don't completely blow it with their picks and cap space.

QUOTE (D Rock @ Feb 23 2017, 11:37 PM) *
We have more than enough cap room to sign NN to starters money. Not that it would have taken that, but we could have done it with no negative ramifications to the cap.

And if you wanna talk Jojo insurance, Okafor is not that. Noel on the other hand would have been.

As it pertains to the draft, our own pick should have been meaningless. With Boogie gone and Gay out for the year, we know the Sacto pick would have been top 5. Now, we'll probably be earlier, thus rendering the right to trade picks nul and void. Another wasted asset. Add to that the fact that LAL traded Lou Williams, and we're assured the Laker pick wont convey either. Another lost asset.

Ultimately, Bryan Colangelo has done nothing for this franchise but piss away asset after asset. We were set-up to build a Philly basketball dynasty. And Douche Bag Daddy's Boy has made it more likely that our ceiling has been lowered to perennial 6-8 seed, first round playoff out. Precisely what the process was designed to avoid.

The process was built, and was nearly indestructible. But Bryan Colangelo has proven that he could fuck up a stainless steel ball.

No move would have been a better move. He seemingly has no concept of "team" and chemistry. I've got $100 that says this moronic asshat goes and drafts Dennis Smith too.

...

Reality Fan
QUOTE (D Rock @ Feb 24 2017, 11:11 AM) *


That is like quoting a piece from BLG....the bottom line is that Noel will get a large offer in the offseason and the Sixers were not and should not going to pay a backup starter money. Taking the emotion out of it the simple facts are that there were no offers better and once this season ends they were going to get nothing for him. Now Okafor can try to up his value with regular minutes and that may help move him in the offseason. I agree with Mikey, Hinke created this mess by drafting 3 centers who have no ability to transition to the 4. We can want a better market for a trade but there simply wasn't one. It is not a pretty thing for the fans but at the end of the day it is not a surprise.
nephillymike
QUOTE (D Rock @ Feb 24 2017, 11:11 AM) *

They are a devious bunch.

Banner would be proud!
nephillymike
QUOTE (D Rock @ Feb 24 2017, 10:57 AM) *
1. I said I was "open to" trading both Noel and Jah. Not that we "should." False equivalence. I NEVER said we should give away Noel for a handful of beans (non-magic). I'd give away Jah, but Noel is a legit top 10 defensive center.

2. I agree. I would have no problem matching whatever contract the market would have offered Noel as a restricted free agent.

3. Sam wanted Wiggins and Deangelo. He got Embiid and Okafor. One can only control what they can control. If I could control lottery balls, I'd be retired. Despite those pesky balls, we did manage to bring in 2 transcendent players. 3 would have been nice, again... those damn balls. Not only did it bring us Joel and Ben, but played right, we could land a 3rd this year. Who would be more valuable as a draft day trade chip? Jah or Nerlens? At this point, Jah's ridiculous lack of effort on D and on the glass have rendered him worthless in today's league. That's not on Sam.

4. This point, coming from you, baffles me. You can't compare roster building in the NBA to the NFL in any way. They are two different animals entirely. I would think you'd get that more than most as our resident numbers guy. First, rolling unused cap into future years, is a despicable practice. And in the nba their is no hard cap. Teams are free to spend all they like, but do have to pay a luxury tax on expenditures over "the cap." So too, they distribute dollars below the salary floor evenly amongst those on their roster. Second, analytics has real value in the NBA. The reason analytics doesn't work in the NFL always comes down to sample size. It's hard to compile meaningful data when you're limited to 16 games a year. According to literally ALL analytic standards, Noel had developed into a beast. Hinkie liked data. Colangelo prefers "the eye test." The fact that Colangelo overvalues Okafor (who sucks) and undervalued Noel (who is seriously legit) is nothing short of alarming. Like I said.... he has single handedly lowered the ceiling of all Hinkie's tanking efforts to precisely the level of "success" the process was intended for us to avoid. Mark my words... With Colangelo at the healm, we'll never get past a 6-8 seed in the playoffs and be an easy out for the Celts.


My point on #4 was that without cap carryover, one benefit of tanking in the NBA vs the NFL is eliminated. Point being, it may not be as beneficial to tank in the NBA as we think. Sure they can overspend in future years because of the soft cap, but at a higher premium due to the luxury tax, AND only if the reason for going over fits in one of the myriad of cap exceptions. It's a fucked up system as far as I can see.
nephillymike
http://www.philly.com/philly/columnists/bo...nkie_trade.html

An opposing view.

Definitely some of this on Saint Sam. We will likely feel the same way when we trade Okafor at the draft.

On a related note, R. Holmes played really well last night as we beat the #3 seed in the East. Okafor didn't impress.

Here's a question to ask yourself.

What % of total center minutes played do you predict for Embiid over the next four years?

I said 60%. My son said 50%, a guy at work said 60%,

If any of us were close, the choice to keep Noel was the move to make, IF, they are sold on moving Okafor.

You could put them on the floor together for five or so minutes a game to boost Noel's minutes a little.

That's why I give him a qualifying offer.
D Rock
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Feb 25 2017, 12:55 PM) *
http://www.philly.com/philly/columnists/bo...nkie_trade.html

An opposing view.

Definitely some of this on Saint Sam. We will likely feel the same way when we trade Okafor at the draft.

On a related note, R. Holmes played really well last night as we beat the #3 seed in the East. Okafor didn't impress.

Here's a question to ask yourself.

What % of total center minutes played do you predict for Embiid over the next four years?

I said 60%. My son said 50%, a guy at work said 60%,

If any of us were close, the choice to keep Noel was the move to make, IF, they are sold on moving Okafor.

You could put them on the floor together for five or so minutes a game to boost Noel's minutes a little.

That's why I give him a qualifying offer.

100% agreed on your input here. But the piece has a clear "suck up to BC" slant. Noel and Jo were on the floor together for a grand total of 8 mins. That makes no sense.

My guess would be that Embiid should see roughly 60% of the center mins. 2-3 years from now, if healthy... start to tick that number up. But I don't think he'll ever be a 38 min guy and likely shouldn't be.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Feb 25 2017, 06:55 AM) *
http://www.philly.com/philly/columnists/bo...nkie_trade.html


If any of us were close, the choice to keep Noel was the move to make, IF, they are sold on moving Okafor.

You could put them on the floor together for five or so minutes a game to boost Noel's minutes a little.

That's why I give him a qualifying offer.


Every NBA pundit talking about Noel expects him to get starter money....not sure how that keeps getting ignored.....are you saying you wait until that happens just to prove it and then get nothing when you won't match the big contract he is going to get?
D Rock
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Feb 25 2017, 08:02 PM) *
Every NBA pundit talking about Noel expects him to get starter money....not sure how that keeps getting ignored.....are you saying you wait until that happens just to prove it and then get nothing when you won't match the big contract he is going to get?

2 points regarding the money he's going to get.

1st, judging by the level of interest he garnered, and the pittance we were offered in trade, I think that speaks to what kind of market there will be for him as a RFA. Certainly, it would have made some sense to at least see what the market would bare.

2nd, we have obscene cap dollars available. We could easily pay him the proverbial "starter's money" and traded him down the line. He would be a more valuable trade asset this time next year w/ a multi year contract conveniently in place.

Ultimately, he may not be in the plan for 2-3 years down the line. But to get a pile of garbage in return for a guy who is significantly more valuable to us now than Okafor, screams to me that BC has no plan and is acting in a reactionary fashion approaching a panic move.

Trading Jah was the move to make. Even if for nothing. Trading Noel now for nothing was IMO a horrible move. I would have preferred to stand pat.

Did you see last night's game? Just further evidence that Jah's game has little to no place in today's game. Look at his line. He and Gortat each went for 11 points as their team's starting centers. But one had 11 boards to go along with it. The other had a whopping TWO. 2 rebounds from a starting NBA center is beyond laughable.
Joegrane
The Sixers almost certainly already know what kind of $ NN is going to get in FA. Teams probably were allowed to try to work out a sign and trade with him.

Maybe they are dreaming that they can attract a big name FA SG or Wing this offseason and so wanted to keep their cap situation as good as possible. They might also want to front load as much of the deal as possible while JE Saric, ect are still cheap.


QUOTE (D Rock @ Feb 25 2017, 03:11 PM) *
2 points regarding the money he's going to get.

1st, judging by the level of interest he garnered, and the pittance we were offered in trade, I think that speaks to what kind of market there will be for him as a RFA. Certainly, it would have made some sense to at least see what the market would bare.

2nd, we have obscene cap dollars available. We could easily pay him the proverbial "starter's money" and traded him down the line. He would be a more valuable trade asset this time next year w/ a multi year contract conveniently in place.

Ultimately, he may not be in the plan for 2-3 years down the line. But to get a pile of garbage in return for a guy who is significantly more valuable to us now than Okafor, screams to me that BC has no plan and is acting in a reactionary fashion approaching a panic move.

Trading Jah was the move to make. Even if for nothing. Trading Noel now for nothing was IMO a horrible move. I would have preferred to stand pat.

Did you see last night's game? Just further evidence that Jah's game has little to no place in today's game. Look at his line. He and Gortat each went for 11 points as their team's starting centers. But one had 11 boards to go along with it. The other had a whopping TWO. 2 rebounds from a starting NBA center is beyond laughable.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (D Rock @ Feb 25 2017, 03:11 PM) *
2 points regarding the money he's going to get.

1st, judging by the level of interest he garnered, and the pittance we were offered in trade, I think that speaks to what kind of market there will be for him as a RFA. Certainly, it would have made some sense to at least see what the market would bare.

2nd, we have obscene cap dollars available. We could easily pay him the proverbial "starter's money" and traded him down the line. He would be a more valuable trade asset this time next year w/ a multi year contract conveniently in place.

Ultimately, he may not be in the plan for 2-3 years down the line. But to get a pile of garbage in return for a guy who is significantly more valuable to us now than Okafor, screams to me that BC has no plan and is acting in a reactionary fashion approaching a panic move.

Trading Jah was the move to make. Even if for nothing. Trading Noel now for nothing was IMO a horrible move. I would have preferred to stand pat.

Did you see last night's game? Just further evidence that Jah's game has little to no place in today's game. Look at his line. He and Gortat each went for 11 points as their team's starting centers. But one had 11 boards to go along with it. The other had a whopping TWO. 2 rebounds from a starting NBA center is beyond laughable.


Then every beat writer for the SIxers is an idiot because they all agree that Noel will get big money.....all of them

I don't disagree about Okafor at all....a total pussy and huge disappointment....how he can't use his body the same way on the defensive end as he does on the offensive end is mind boggling.....and the fact that he is playing on a Balky knee is worrisome. He is one dimensional, injured and apparently not exactly a workout warrior. I also understand the disappointment about the return for Noel, it was garbage, I don't deny that but having read everything about this team and its players for the last 6 months it really came down to getting whatever they could now or get nothing because, and I will wager whatever anyone wants on it, he is going to get ridiculous money in the offseason. I am not saying he deserves it, I am just saying what the beat writers here that have covered the league for years and NBA pundits are saying. Check out Bob Cooney's articless on Philly.com...he is a pretty good NBA guy and very good on the Sixers.

We don't disagree on the Sixers that much but we do on what they were going to get and why....For that I blame Hinke, he created a very big mess by drafting 3 centers.....he devalued Noel and Okafor.
D Rock
QUOTE (Joegrane @ Feb 25 2017, 11:08 PM) *
The Sixers almost certainly already know what kind of $ NN is going to get in FA. Teams probably were allowed to try to work out a sign and trade with him.

You can't be serious with this.
Joegrane
Why? If you were the Mavs or another team interested in NN for the long term, wouldn't you prefer to try to get a sign n trade? The Sixers would prefer that because they'd likely get better compensation. NN might not so he can be sure he wants to spend half of his career with that team and gets a good deal.

If you were the Mavs, would you not not insist on talking to NN and/or his agent to find out what he wants as a FA? If a player seems unrealistic in expectations, you don't trade to get him for just 1.3 yrs.

QUOTE (D Rock @ Feb 26 2017, 11:32 AM) *
You can't be serious with this.


QUOTE (Joegrane @ Feb 25 2017, 11:08 PM) *
The Sixers almost certainly already know what kind of $ NN is going to get in FA. Teams probably were allowed to try to work out a sign and trade with him.
nephillymike
Apparently, sign and trades don't happen as much because with the cap being flush, acquiring teams don't need the cap break as much as in the past.

But ignoring the minutia of NBA cap rules, I think you are correct. If DAL was interested, and you need to assume they were for the long haul, they would have a conversation about parameters of a deal.

My question is if we make him a qualifying offer, and then match what is offered by others, which could be less than max or maybe not, wouldn't he get us more in a trade at that point (and after playing well for the last month and a half here with JE missing time) then we got the other night. Our putting up the money signals that he has value to us, and if I need to trade to get something you value, then I need to ante up. And let's just say, I blew it and I misread the interest in him after I match. I didn't misread the interest in him before I matched because I could see the offers other were making as I matched them. Even if I blew it I can still trade him for the two pieces of shit 2nd round picks I got this week.

It seems like a no brainer to me. I may be missing something. I admit I am no where near an NBA expert.
nephillymike
And for those worrying about our cap space:

http://www.spotrac.com/nba/philadelphia-76ers/cap/

Please.

We are under the cap by 5.1M

Under the luxury tax by 27 M.

Even to get above the cap floor of 84.7M, we've had to eat a bunch of salary dumps.

In our 89.1M cap, we have salary eats of:

11.0 for Bogut
8.6M for Splitter
13.5M of dead money for (Landry 6.5, Pleiss 3.0, Kaun 1.3 and Thompson 1.0)

And we have in there
9.4M for Bayless, who didn't play and we may not be interested in after the draft
8.0M for Rodriguez who won't be here next year
4.8M for Okafor who won't be here next year.

It's a joke. Unlike the NFL, you can't roll it forward. So other than picks, we get no benefit in future cap space for the tank.

We have 33M of our 89M for salary eats past and present and 22M for guys who probably won't be here.

We had plenty of room for a qualifying offer and a match for Noel and could have traded him in the future had we seen fit to do so.

Joegrane
Why do you think J Baylass won't be back next year? His injury was not career threatening, was it? He is signed for two more years and has a Dead Cap number of $17mil next year and 8 mil the next. His skill set seems to fit what the Sixers are likely to need while Simmons is on the court. A rookie combo guard isn't likely to start unless he is a top two or three pick.

In contrast Sergio is a FA at the end of the year. I assume his role as a more traditional PG when Simmons is off the court will be assumed by McConnell and maybe a rookie guard.

G Henderson is signed through next year but has 0 Dead Cap. If the Sixers draft a combo guard or SF, don't you think Henderson could be vulnerable?

I assume the really young European SG they drafted last year won't be coming here next year.

I think Okafor will be back unless the Sixers really like the offer for him.

QUOTE (nephillymike @ Feb 26 2017, 04:34 PM) *
And for those worrying about our cap space:

http://www.spotrac.com/nba/philadelphia-76ers/cap/

Please.

We are under the cap by 5.1M

Under the luxury tax by 27 M.

Even to get above the cap floor of 84.7M, we've had to eat a bunch of salary dumps.

In our 89.1M cap, we have salary eats of:

11.0 for Bogut
8.6M for Splitter
13.5M of dead money for (Landry 6.5, Pleiss 3.0, Kaun 1.3 and Thompson 1.0)

And we have in there
9.4M for Bayless, who didn't play and we may not be interested in after the draft
8.0M for Rodriguez who won't be here next year
4.8M for Okafor who won't be here next year.

It's a joke. Unlike the NFL, you can't roll it forward. So other than picks, we get no benefit in future cap space for the tank.

We have 33M of our 89M for salary eats past and present and 22M for guys who probably won't be here.

We had plenty of room for a qualifying offer and a match for Noel and could have traded him in the future had we seen fit to do so.

nephillymike
QUOTE (Joegrane @ Feb 26 2017, 08:12 PM) *
Why do you think J Baylass won't be back next year? His injury was not career threatening, was it? He is signed for two more years and has a Dead Cap number of $17mil next year and 8 mil the next. His skill set seems to fit what the Sixers are likely to need while Simmons is on the court. A rookie combo guard isn't likely to start unless he is a top two or three pick.

In contrast Sergio is a FA at the end of the year. I assume his role as a more traditional PG when Simmons is off the court will be assumed by McConnell and maybe a rookie guard.

G Henderson is signed through next year but has 0 Dead Cap. If the Sixers draft a combo guard or SF, don't you think Henderson could be vulnerable?

I assume the really young European SG they drafted last year won't be coming here next year.

I think Okafor will be back unless the Sixers really like the offer for him.


I've been listening to all the draft pundits saying if we can't get Fultz, then our next two on our board is Ball and Smith, followed by Monk. McConnell has played legit and is cheap. I would think they'd want to give the rookie too much playing time to keep Bayless, and we would trade him. I could be wrong. Maybe if we only get one pick and it's Monk, then maybe it is Henderson and we keep Bayless. In any event, one of their salaries is elsewhere next year.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Feb 26 2017, 02:11 PM) *
Apparently, sign and trades don't happen as much because with the cap being flush, acquiring teams don't need the cap break as much as in the past.

But ignoring the minutia of NBA cap rules, I think you are correct. If DAL was interested, and you need to assume they were for the long haul, they would have a conversation about parameters of a deal.

My question is if we make him a qualifying offer, and then match what is offered by others, which could be less than max or maybe not, wouldn't he get us more in a trade at that point (and after playing well for the last month and a half here with JE missing time) then we got the other night. Our putting up the money signals that he has value to us, and if I need to trade to get something you value, then I need to ante up. And let's just say, I blew it and I misread the interest in him after I match. I didn't misread the interest in him before I matched because I could see the offers other were making as I matched them. Even if I blew it I can still trade him for the two pieces of shit 2nd round picks I got this week.

It seems like a no brainer to me. I may be missing something. I admit I am no where near an NBA expert.



I have several questions for you...

1. Dallas gets to kick the tires on Noel, They unload Bogut, get a tryout to see how Noel fits with their team before they pay him a ton of money and they unload Anderson who they never really gave a chance. What is the harm?

2. Why is there so much love for Noel? Richuan Holmes has the same or better production per 36 minutes and that is with getting far less regular play which affects any player. He is cheaper, as good and signed through next year in club options. Why does no one consider Holmes in this equation? His only crime was being drafted in the 2nd round.

3. What do you say when they make the qualifying offer to Noel and another team offers him 16 million and he walks for nothing?

The headscratcher for me is how Holmes does not figure into so many of the opinions put forth here.

nephillymike
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Feb 26 2017, 09:17 PM) *
I have several questions for you...

1. Dallas gets to kick the tires on Noel, They unload Bogut, get a tryout to see how Noel fits with their team before they pay him a ton of money and they unload Anderson who they never really gave a chance. What is the harm?

2. Why is there so much love for Noel? Richuan Holmes has the same or better production per 36 minutes and that is with getting far less regular play which affects any player. He is cheaper, as good and signed through next year in club options. Why does no one consider Holmes in this equation? His only crime was being drafted in the 2nd round.

3. What do you say when they make the qualifying offer to Noel and another team offers him 16 million and he walks for nothing?

The headscratcher for me is how Holmes does not figure into so many of the opinions put forth here.


With regard to #1, I agree that makes sense from DAL point of view, but the two 2nd is not in our best interest.

On #2, Holmes has played well. Very promising. If he plays this well going forward than it won't matter. But I don't think most saw that. If they did and he does progress to a top backup, then it was definitely the right move.

On #3, he doesn't walk. I match it and then trade him at a later date. Whether that is this summer or next year, my strong hunch is that I get more than two seconds and Anderson at that time. Of course, I wouldn't get the privilege to absorb Bogut's 11M salary for him not to play, but with good therapy, I think I could eventually get over it. Worse case, in your example, I spend an additional $5 M for his services over what I absorbed for Bogut and I get at least the same thing in return, but what I feel is a real good chance of getting more. Also, what if Embiid is the type of player that can't play 50% of the minutes that his college and pro career has indicated he is so far. Then we have a viable option to play those minutes Embiid can't.
D Rock
Richaun doesn't rebound. Noel does. Do you guys watch this team?

Bayless wont be kept around at his salary to be a backup.

Ball and Smith are ball dominant point guards, so any "pundit" who suggests they're on the Sixer's wish list needs to be dismissed.

That is all...

Reality Fan
QUOTE (D Rock @ Feb 27 2017, 12:04 PM) *
Richaun doesn't rebound. Noel does. Do you guys watch this team?

Bayless wont be kept around at his salary to be a backup.

Ball and Smith are ball dominant point guards, so any "pundit" who suggests they're on the Sixer's wish list needs to be dismissed.

That is all...


Do you or do their stats lies but you get it right?

per 36 minutes Holmes averages 9.7 rebounds...Noel? 9.2

Even if you just look at the raw stats Noel averages 8.9 pts, 5 rebounds and .9 blocks in 19.4 minutes per game
Holmes? 16 minutes with 4.4 rebounds, .9 blocks and 6.8 pts per game.

Maybe the NBA needs a new official scorer...lol

While Noel is no Okafor in the rebounding game despite plenty of extended playing time he was not exactly outshining Holmes in that department.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Feb 26 2017, 10:25 PM) *
With regard to #1, I agree that makes sense from DAL point of view, but the two 2nd is not in our best interest.

On #2, Holmes has played well. Very promising. If he plays this well going forward than it won't matter. But I don't think most saw that. If they did and he does progress to a top backup, then it was definitely the right move.

On #3, he doesn't walk. I match it and then trade him at a later date. Whether that is this summer or next year, my strong hunch is that I get more than two seconds and Anderson at that time. Of course, I wouldn't get the privilege to absorb Bogut's 11M salary for him not to play, but with good therapy, I think I could eventually get over it. Worse case, in your example, I spend an additional $5 M for his services over what I absorbed for Bogut and I get at least the same thing in return, but what I feel is a real good chance of getting more. Also, what if Embiid is the type of player that can't play 50% of the minutes that his college and pro career has indicated he is so far. Then we have a viable option to play those minutes Embiid can't.


On your number 2...are you saying the coaching staff didn't or doesn't see that since they work with both every day?

On your 3 you continue to assume that such a move is viable.....that is a huge risk if there are no takers at that point. While you have takers for peanuts right now willing to take the risk what happens if those suitors look elsewhere in the interim? GMs are paid to determine the market now and the future. Some may not like Colangelo but he has a pretty good track record in that department. He has a few misses but a lot of hits.
D Rock
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Feb 27 2017, 07:25 PM) *
Do you or do their stats lies but you get it right?

per 36 minutes Holmes averages 9.7 rebounds...Noel? 9.2

Even if you just look at the raw stats Noel averages 8.9 pts, 5 rebounds and .9 blocks in 19.4 minutes per game
Holmes? 16 minutes with 4.4 rebounds, .9 blocks and 6.8 pts per game.

Maybe the NBA needs a new official scorer...lol

While Noel is no Okafor in the rebounding game despite plenty of extended playing time he was not exactly outshining Holmes in that department.

BC is a genius. It was the greatest trade ever known to man...
Reality Fan
QUOTE (D Rock @ Feb 27 2017, 02:36 PM) *
BC is a genius. It was the greatest trade ever known to man...


see...that is the problem...everyone goes to extremes like a child as soon as there is a counterpoint to their idea. No one said Colangelo is a genius but it is silly to exclude all of the trades he has made over the years a nd dismiss his track record because one feels he is a product of nepotism. Toronto was not owned by his father and he did well there.

I don't like the trade but I also realize that the market for Noel and the Sixers leverage in keeping 3 centers is not what some here seem to feel it was and I trust Brett Brown and his staff were consulted on Holmes progress and I look at the numbers he has put up against those by Noel. To portray Noel as some stud center is inaccurate to be kind. He is an ok backup and if I am the GM I am not spending 14-18 million on an ok backup when I have the same player in Holmes who costs peanuts through 2018.
D Rock
Oh, lighten up, Francis. I'm just busting your balls. You're as much fun as tooth decay.
Joegrane
I suppose you mean a trade deadline trade of Bayless since his value is currently low after missing a year due to injury.

QUOTE (nephillymike @ Feb 26 2017, 08:58 PM) *
I've been listening to all the draft pundits saying if we can't get Fultz, then our next two on our board is Ball and Smith, followed by Monk. McConnell has played legit and is cheap. I would think they'd want to give the rookie too much playing time to keep Bayless, and we would trade him. I could be wrong. Maybe if we only get one pick and it's Monk, then maybe it is Henderson and we keep Bayless. In any event, one of their salaries is elsewhere next year.

nephillymike
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Feb 27 2017, 01:29 PM) *
On your number 2...are you saying the coaching staff didn't or doesn't see that since they work with both every day?

On your 3 you continue to assume that such a move is viable.....that is a huge risk if there are no takers at that point. While you have takers for peanuts right now willing to take the risk what happens if those suitors look elsewhere in the interim? GMs are paid to determine the market now and the future. Some may not like Colangelo but he has a pretty good track record in that department. He has a few misses but a lot of hits.


I am missing something here.

We make a qualifying offer.

We get to see how many teams are interested and at what price.

So now we know the market.

We match it. Maybe it isn't the max people fear.

He's ours. Don't you think someone would give at least two seconds for him at that point?

Someone could give us two seconds for Holmes!

If everyone backs out, and we're stuck with Noel, we can trade Holmes and recoup at least one of those picks. When you have four 2nds and the only risk you have are two of those seconds less what you get for Holmes, you can afford to role the dice.

Paint me a horrible scenario because I am not seeing it.

Sorry for being dense.

Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Feb 27 2017, 07:47 PM) *
I am missing something here.

We make a qualifying offer.

We get to see how many teams are interested and at what price.

So now we know the market.

We match it. Maybe it isn't the max people fear.

He's ours. Don't you think someone would give at least two seconds for him at that point?

Someone could give us two seconds for Holmes!

If everyone backs out, and we're stuck with Noel, we can trade Holmes and recoup at least one of those picks. When you have four 2nds and the only risk you have are two of those seconds less what you get for Holmes, you can afford to role the dice.

Paint me a horrible scenario because I am not seeing it.

Sorry for being dense.


We have the same player in Holmes.....I mean almost the exact same numbers per minute at 1/4 the price right now.....why offer a qualifier? It leaves 2 scenarios....a) we offer him the qualifier and match 15 million or thereabouts and now we have a high priced backup who is no better than what we already have for 2 million or less and then we have no leverage to trade him because teams know we are stuck.(like now) or cool.gif we offer the qualifier and don't match the offer he gets and we get....wait for it....NOTHING.

The difference with Holmes is that he is putting up those numbers without the playing time your first round pick demanded you play Noel. It appears that the staff thinks highly of Holmes and he is a 2nd round pick whose salary is locked in through 2018 with the club option.

Put simply the Sixers traded Noel now to avoid getting nothing for him next year and that seems prudent...they tested the market with 2 first round centers and there were no takers.....none for Noel because everyone knows he is a RFA and that his salary will be prohibitive for the Sixers to match hence no leverage when teams can just wait the season out. None for Okafor because the guy can't use his body to play defense or rebound.

nephillymike
Holmes wagon. You may be on to something.

15 pts, 4 boards, 3 blocks, +/- of +4.

Okafor +/- = -15.

He may not even get us 2 seconds.

Weak.

I watched that game tonight.

We just don't quit. Good to see.

We so much need a 3 point shooter. Got to take them out of Saric and a few others hands.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Feb 27 2017, 10:47 PM) *
Holmes wagon. You may be on to something.

15 pts, 4 boards, 3 blocks, +/- of +4.

Okafor +/- = -15.

He may not even get us 2 seconds.

Weak.

I watched that game tonight.

We just don't quit. Good to see.

We so much need a 3 point shooter. Got to take them out of Saric and a few others hands.



Don't get me wrong, I don't think Holmes is the next Malone but he is what you want in a backup center from production and cost. He is really pretty similar to Noel and may get better.

okafor is just sad.....it is like he has no desire to be an NBA player
Joegrane
Does anyone remember if Okafor was like that in College?

Could he be nicked up and so is "saving himself" for the offensive end?

QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Feb 28 2017, 08:55 PM) *
Don't get me wrong, I don't think Holmes is the next Malone but he is what you want in a backup center from production and cost. He is really pretty similar to Noel and may get better.

okafor is just sad.....it is like he has no desire to be an NBA player

D Rock
Okafor was so physically dominant as a youngster, that he never had to work hard in the game. Even at Duke, he was so dominant an offensive big, and coach K runs an "old school" type of offense that featured low post scoring, and protecting him on defense.

Now that he's in the NBA, he's confronted with actually having to work. He almost never leaves the ground on the defensive end, and unless a ball drops right into his lap, he barely tries to rebound.

Sad is the perfect description for what it feels like to watch him play.
Joegrane
Quote: He almost never leaves the ground on the defensive end, and unless a ball drops right into his lap, he barely tries to rebound.

I wonder if he is having some knee or other discomfort and so is trying to protect himself.

I had to stop jumping rope because of gimpy knees. They are fine if I don't exert myself greatly and assuming I take glucosamine sulfate every day.

QUOTE (D Rock @ Mar 1 2017, 11:16 AM) *
Okafor was so physically dominant as a youngster, that he never had to work hard in the game. Even at Duke, he was so dominant an offensive big, and coach K runs an "old school" type of offense that featured low post scoring, and protecting him on defense.

Now that he's in the NBA, he's confronted with actually having to work. He almost never leaves the ground on the defensive end, and unless a ball drops right into his lap, he barely tries to rebound.

Sad is the perfect description for what it feels like to watch him play.

D Rock
That could be the case, but he had zero hops from day 1.

I can't say he's NOT protecting himself, or gimpy. But I can say his game has always been surprisingly "below the rim" for a guy that goes 6'11".
Reality Fan
and a little Holmes update...

QUOTE
Holmes seems well on his way to being able to handle that. In the past six games, when he's gotten an average of about 24 minutes of run, Holmes has averaged 12.2 points, just over four rebounds and blocked 12 shots. His activity on both ends of the floor is immeasurable. At just 23, the Bowling Green product is simply scratching the surface of his potential


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