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Rick
Another Eagles game. Another game with receivers who can't get open and drop the ball. Another week where Agholar drops another ball.
This Eagles' receiving group needs to be (essentially) blown up. Agholar should be cut immediately. He does no belong on an NFL roster. Cutting him will not hurt the team from a performance standpoint. Promote another guy from the practice squad or sign someone off the street. It can't be worse....really, it can't. He is ranked dead last in most of the numbers you measure a receiver by.

I'm not ready to give up totally on DGB just yet. He does show flashes here and there but it would be nice to see some actual progress out of him.
Matthews is what he is...a big target who can't get open more than 3-5 yards from the line of scrimmage and won't break tackles. He'll drop 1-2 passes a game and won't make a spectacular play if his life depended on it.

If I hear Pedersen assert he's ok with these receivers again, I'll scream. He should NOT be ok with them. He SHOULD be public about it. These guys are getting paid a lot of money to catch the ball. They are NOT doing this and it's costing them games. It's time to call them out.
I didn't expect the playoffs or anything crazy this year. I realize this team is in full rebuild mode. But you would like to see progress while rebuilding. These receivers have not gotten any better and, in many ways, have gotten worse.

And I'm not even getting into how horrible this defense is on the road. I just don't understand how you can be so different on the road versus home...especially on DEFENSE!!!!
Zero
The thing that really scares is remembering how Reid used to tell everyone his receivers were fine and never upgraded the position until TOO. I'm hoping that Roseman and Douglas don't give Pederson the chance to do the same thing and I hope they can find difference makers at CB and WR for next year. The defense and Wentz need them.
nephillymike
Don't listen to the post game presser, you'll throw up.

To paraphrase:

He's still our guy, I'm going to throw some love on him. He works really hard in practice, he does a lot of things people don't see.

My question would have been: sometimes coaches need to kick players in the ass, when will you do that.

Then there was Agholar's interview.

He's a wreck. Has the world on his shoulder, is overwhelmed and he is lost. Said the right things, but if it was a fight, they would have stopped it.

IMO, he should only play if the game is decided. Not a snap that is meaningful to the outcome should he play, until our playoff chances are shot. Add Turner to the 45. If you dress 5 WR, then he only plays mop up duty.

His eyes said it all.

When talking of the mistakes, Joyner had a good saying. If they continue to happen, then as a coach you need to look in the mirror and realize that either you are allowing them to happen or you are coaching them to happen. I remove the allowance and sit Agholar.
Rick
QUOTE (Zero @ Nov 20 2016, 10:20 PM) *
The thing that really scares is remembering how Reid used to tell everyone his receivers were fine and never upgraded the position until TOO. I'm hoping that Roseman and Douglas don't give Pederson the chance to do the same thing and I hope they can find difference makers at CB and WR for next year. The defense and Wentz need them.

Yes, I didn't mention my issues with Pedersen and his similarities to Reid in that he seems to think he's the smartest guy in the room even though he is not. Pedersen hasn't been doing a lot to instill confidence with his crap play calling and this team's horrible discipline. 2nd in the NFL in penalties!!!?? Really?
Rick
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Nov 20 2016, 11:01 PM) *
Don't listen to the post game presser, you'll throw up.

To paraphrase:

He's still our guy, I'm going to throw some love on him. He works really hard in practice, he does a lot of things people don't see.

My question would have been: sometimes coaches need to kick players in the ass, when will you do that.

Then there was Agholar's interview.

He's a wreck. Has the world on his shoulder, is overwhelmed and he is lost. Said the right things, but if it was a fight, they would have stopped it.

IMO, he should only play if the game is decided. Not a snap that is meaningful to the outcome should he play, until our playoff chances are shot. Add Turner to the 45. If you dress 5 WR, then he only plays mop up duty.

His eyes said it all.

When talking of the mistakes, Joyner had a good saying. If they continue to happen, then as a coach you need to look in the mirror and realize that either you are allowing them to happen or you are coaching them to happen. I remove the allowance and sit Agholar.

Ok, I just screamed...

Look, I understand being behind your players and all but, when players aren't getting it done, then you, as the coach, need to kick them in the ass or move them along.

He doesn't even deserve to be there in mop up time. He doesn't deserve to be on an NFL roster. EVERYONE in the NFL works hard. Yes, some work harder than others but EVERYONE works hard. Bully for him for working hard. He can't play in the NFL. He's shown that since he got here. Some people respond to the pressure of playing on the big stage, others do not. It is what it is. But it's time to stop this and get rid of this guy.

And I agree with Joyner. At this point, these mistakes are on the coaching staff. These penalties are absolutely inexcusable. I realize things happen during the game but they cannot happen at this rate. Not if you want to have a good team.

I think Sims said it best towards the end of the game yesterday. Good teams don't make mistakes. Seattle is a good team and made very few mistakes. The Eagles made a lot of mistakes and they aren't good enough to overcome these mistakes. Or something like that....

They are going to waste Wentz. The kid has GOT to have little confidence throwing the ball to these bums. That doesn't help you succeed as a QB.
Zero
If Agholor works so hard why isn't he better? We all saw GLew in his face for not being on the LOS, he doesn't get separation, he doesn't catch balls. If he has the physical talent and works hard he either has a mental issue or he's being coached badly. At least there's a little bit of improvement with DGB, there's no visible improvement in Agholor's game. Let someone else try, if that doesn't help him then cut him loose but stop expecting him to change when he's obviously not.

How do you expect a person to be accountable if you don't hold them accountable?
Rick
QUOTE (Zero @ Nov 21 2016, 08:42 AM) *
How do you expect a person to be accountable if you don't hold them accountable?

Exactly...
The Franchise
I understand not publicly going after players, and frankly I don't want to see that. What I DO want to see is action being taken. Agholor shouldn't be on the field ever again. Get someone from the CFL or the fucking arena league. Just no more Agholor.
JeeQ
There's better WRs you can pick up off the street than ANY of ours and that's a sad fact. Blow it up start over
Rick
QUOTE (The Franchise @ Nov 21 2016, 12:16 PM) *
I understand not publicly going after players, and frankly I don't want to see that. What I DO want to see is action being taken. Agholor shouldn't be on the field ever again. Get someone from the CFL or the fucking arena league. Just no more Agholor.

It's not an issue of going after players but, when asked about something specific, to continue to make excuses for the guy is ridiculous. They're all professionals. If you're not doing your job, it's perfectly ok for the coach to say as much when asked. \

I wouldn't expect him to go on and rant about him. But call it what it is.

So now Pedey says he's going to, "reduce," his playing time. Unless he's reducing it to ZERO, I'm still upset...
The Franchise
QUOTE (Rick @ Nov 21 2016, 03:40 PM) *
So now Pedey says he's going to, "reduce," his playing time. Unless he's reducing it to ZERO, I'm still upset...


That's Pederson for 'his ass is benched.' At least I hope.
Joegrane
The problem is that the new guy would have to learn the playbook. You might add someone with a limited role, such as Treggs who mostly is a deep threat, but they've already done that.

They need a solid #2 caliber WR or better and that won't happen until the offseason.

The best chance this year is for DGB to grow into a bigger role.

QUOTE (JeeQ @ Nov 21 2016, 12:47 PM) *
There's better WRs you can pick up off the street than ANY of ours and that's a sad fact. Blow it up start over
Rick
QUOTE (Joegrane @ Nov 21 2016, 05:37 PM) *
The problem is that the new guy would have to learn the playbook. You might add someone with a limited role, such as Treggs who mostly is a deep threat, but they've already done that.

Who cares? NA is doing absolutely NOTHING except hurting the team. Even someone with a limited understanding of the offense would be better. Chances are, they won't drop as many passes as NA does. Probably will run better routes than NA does.

You literally have nothing to lose if you do that.
Zero
I agree with this, but they need to bring in new talent. I'm for adding a FA receiver who fits the offense, is stable, reliable and can serve as a leader/mentor for the young talent.
QUOTE
There was a time when it was a given that rookie receivers would struggle early in their careers, expecting that greatness would take at least a couple of years. Then the draft class of 2014 came along and raised expectations at that position. Agholor and Green-Beckham are not struggling to achieve greatness right now. They are striving to achieve competence.

"It's obviously a league where we ask guys to perform right away," Pederson said. "Whether they're drafted or undrafted, the pressure to play is right now. Back when I played, it was more, 'Let's develop these players and you've got time,' where now it is more of a what-have-you-done-for-me-lately mentality. And it's probably an [injustice] on our part. Maybe we need to take a step back as coaches and say, 'Hey, let's keep developing these guys.' "
Linc ...
Joegrane
I wonder if they will have the cap space for a #1FA WR or just for a solid #2.

NA really should be a #3 receiver, sadly, maybe a #4 with limited responsibilities. That might take some of the mental pressure off of him. Some have suggested that he be benched. I prefer a limited number of snaps so he can prepare mentally for a smaller set of responsibilities.

However can the other WRs --other than Matthews--handle the larger responsibilities? : (

Another approach is to see if NA can feast on GB's weak secondary and so build some confidence ?

QUOTE (Zero @ Nov 22 2016, 08:18 AM) *
I agree with this, but they need to bring in new talent. I'm for adding a FA receiver who fits the offense, is stable, reliable and can serve as a leader/mentor for the young talent.
Linc ...

Rick
QUOTE (Joegrane @ Nov 22 2016, 06:40 PM) *
I wonder if they will have the cap space for a #1FA WR or just for a solid #2.

NA really should be a #3 receiver, sadly, maybe a #4 with limited responsibilities. That might take some of the mental pressure off of him. Some have suggested that he be benched. I prefer a limited number of snaps so he can prepare mentally for a smaller set of responsibilities.

NA doesn't belong in the NFL...PERIOD. He has not shown that he can play at this level.
Joegrane
I hear you but you are not going to release a #1 pick that played as well as he did in college and has plenty of talent--on paper. Some guys take longer to develop. I don't expect him to ever be more than a #3 WR but if he can become a good #3 why dump him? He is only 23 yrs old.

QUOTE (Rick @ Nov 22 2016, 06:41 PM) *
NA doesn't belong in the NFL...PERIOD. He has not shown that he can play at this level.

Phits
QUOTE (Joegrane @ Nov 22 2016, 07:48 PM) *
I hear you but you are not going to release a #1 pick that played as well as he did in college and has plenty of talent--on paper. Some guys take longer to develop. I don't expect him to ever be more than a #3 WR but if he can become a good #3 why dump him? He is only 23 yrs old.

True. The biggest failure of this NFL landscape is the inability to patiently foster and develop talent.
Rick
QUOTE (Joegrane @ Nov 22 2016, 08:48 PM) *
I hear you but you are not going to release a #1 pick that played as well as he did in college and has plenty of talent--on paper. Some guys take longer to develop. I don't expect him to ever be more than a #3 WR but if he can become a good #3 why dump him? He is only 23 yrs old.

Why dump him? Because, again, he has not shown one game that he belongs playing at this level. He has done nothing but hurt this team almost every game he's played.

There are a LOT of talented guys who get cut. Where he was drafted got him a little extra time but he has shown absolutely NO progress so far and, in fact, is getting worse. He is pretty much the worst receiver in the NFL by stats.

I would ask you why they should keep him other than the fact that he's a first round pick?

If they were to cut him, I wouldn't be surprised if nobody signed him unless it was to a practice squad.

This notion of keeping him because he was a first round pick--at this point--is ridiculous. He is a bum WR and doesn't belong in the NFL. His numbers back this up. Forget about the intangibles, which make him look even worse...
Rick
QUOTE (Phits @ Nov 22 2016, 09:03 PM) *
True. The biggest failure of this NFL landscape is the inability to patiently foster and develop talent.

When you get paid multiple millions of dollars to do a job--and you don't do it--you get cut. That's how sports work. So, teams should coddle a guy who has shown no ability to do the job he's getting paid a LOT of money to do in the hopes that he'll break through? He's gotten plenty of time to show whether he can play at this level. He's failed miserably at that...

If he'd shown flashes of greatness then I'd agree with you. But, other than one, maybe two plays HIS WHOLE CAREER, he's shown absolutely NOTHING. Not one thing.

He needs to be gone...
nephillymike
Even As mad as I am right now, I don't cut him.

I do not have him play a down while any game is not decided while our playoff hopes are still alive. If we're eliminated, then OK. If it's late in the game and we're winning or losing in a romp, OK. Otherwise he sits.

With only four other WRS, the logistics are such that you probably activate him in case of an injury, but no, I don't cut him.





Rick
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Nov 23 2016, 07:24 AM) *
Even As mad as I am right now, I don't cut him.

I do not have him play a down while any game is not decided while our playoff hopes are still alive. If we're eliminated, then OK. If it's late in the game and we're winning or losing in a romp, OK. Otherwise he sits.

With only four other WRS, the logistics are such that you probably activate him in case of an injury, but no, I don't cut him.

Why? What, exactly, would you hope to accomplish by playing in in garbage time? We've seen what we need to see about him. Move on. Give someone else a chance. You really can't get any worse.

I really don't understand this logic. He's a bust. Cut your losses and move on.
Birdman420
QUOTE (Rick @ Nov 21 2016, 11:23 AM) *
Exactly...


+1

I was literally screaming at the TV "GET HIM OFF MY TEAM NOW!"

The loss would have been worth it if we saw a coach take Nelsons pads off, point to the exit the fans use and watch him walk off.

I can't stand this guy and he's no good to us, ever. Cut him and bring on anyone- My dead grandmother would do better.
Phits
QUOTE (Rick @ Nov 23 2016, 06:14 AM) *
When you get paid multiple millions of dollars to do a job--and you don't do it--you get cut. That's how sports work. So, teams should coddle a guy who has shown no ability to do the job he's getting paid a LOT of money to do in the hopes that he'll break through? He's gotten plenty of time to show whether he can play at this level. He's failed miserably at that...

If he'd shown flashes of greatness then I'd agree with you. But, other than one, maybe two plays HIS WHOLE CAREER, he's shown absolutely NOTHING. Not one thing.

He needs to be gone...

That's not how sports work, that's how this version of the NFL works. Players need time to develop. Some excel at the transition and, make good headway right from the start others don't. In this modern NFL that means that you become expendable. When you speak of his "whole career" you do realize that he has played a grand total of 23 games. That's not even two full seasons. Perhaps he is as shitty as his play has indicated. Maybe he is the next coming. We'll likely never know, because coaches have a short leash and they need to turn their team around with expediency and there is no opportunity to allow difficult players the opportunity to become...not so difficult. Generally, this is the norm, but there are outliers. Take Bradon Graham as an example; imagine we had given up on him like everybody wanted. Turns out that it only took 6 years for him to be a player.


Rick
QUOTE (Phits @ Nov 23 2016, 05:05 PM) *
That's not how sports work, that's how this version of the NFL works. Players need time to develop. Some excel at the transition and, make good headway right from the start others don't. In this modern NFL that means that you become expendable. When you speak of his "whole career" you do realize that he has played a grand total of 23 games. That's not even two full seasons. Perhaps he is as shitty as his play has indicated. Maybe he is the next coming. We'll likely never know, because coaches have a short leash and they need to turn their team around with expediency and there is no opportunity to allow difficult players the opportunity to become...not so difficult. Generally, this is the norm, but there are outliers. Take Bradon Graham as an example; imagine we had given up on him like everybody wanted. Turns out that it only took 6 years for him to be a player.

Yes, when players make this much money, they need to produce. Again, he has shown absolutely NO ability to play at this level...NONE. 23 games is more than enough to know that.

Yes, you can use Graham as a success, however, how many failures are there for every success of a player who hasn't shown anything in almost 2 full seasons in the league? I'd venture to guess the hit rate in that situation is less than 10% if not less than 5%. I'm a numbers guy, the numbers say cut your losses and move on. If he is a success elsewhere, good for him. But that, by no means, would indicate that he'd ever be a success in Philly. Professional sports is littered with stories of players who were awesome in one city but sucked in another and vice versa.

More importantly, Graham was never as bad at his position as NA has been at his. So not a good comparison.

But to continue to hold out hope he's going to do anything makes no sense. If he'd shown flashes of greatness (at times), I'd be all for holding off but he hasn't. DGB has shown that he might be able to be a very good player so I'm not ready to give up on him just yet. But you can't give these guys 6 years of failure in the hopes they'll pan out...especially when you're a 1st round pick getting 1st round money. If they were to cut NA, I'd be a little surprised if someone picked him up to be quite honest, not shocked but a little surprised. He's that bad. No getting around that.

Zero
QUOTE (Phits @ Nov 23 2016, 05:05 PM) *
That's not how sports work, that's how this version of the NFL works. Players need time to develop. Some excel at the transition and, make good headway right from the start others don't. In this modern NFL that means that you become expendable. When you speak of his "whole career" you do realize that he has played a grand total of 23 games. That's not even two full seasons. Perhaps he is as shitty as his play has indicated. Maybe he is the next coming. We'll likely never know, because coaches have a short leash and they need to turn their team around with expediency and there is no opportunity to allow difficult players the opportunity to become...not so difficult. Generally, this is the norm, but there are outliers. Take Bradon Graham as an example; imagine we had given up on him like everybody wanted. Turns out that it only took 6 years for him to be a player.

I tend to agree and I'd like to see what an established, proven veteran presence would do to help these guys. Maybe nothing, but at least it would give Wentz a target with some reliability.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Birdman420 @ Nov 23 2016, 03:14 PM) *
+1

I was literally screaming at the TV "GET HIM OFF MY TEAM NOW!"

The loss would have been worth it if we saw a coach take Nelsons pads off, point to the exit the fans use and watch him walk off.

I can't stand this guy and he's no good to us, ever. Cut him and bring on anyone- My dead grandmother would do better.

This is too funny.

As my sons and I were watching the game, yelling at the TV as has been happening too much of late, I yell the same thing, word for word as you.

My wife who just happened to come upstairs from watching her shows with my daughter, couldn't resist busting my balls saying I didn't know we were rich and owned part of the team! When did we buy it?

The looks me and my sons gave her gave her the hint that now was not the time.

Back downstairs she went to watch Housewives of Fifth and Japip with my daughter.

They just don't get it.

Once when we were newlyweds, she uttered the term that "it was only a game" when I was pissed off at a Buddy special, losing to a shit team at home. She knows it is more than a game, but was surprised it is my team biggrin.gif
nephillymike
QUOTE (Rick @ Nov 23 2016, 10:19 AM) *
Why? What, exactly, would you hope to accomplish by playing in in garbage time? We've seen what we need to see about him. Move on. Give someone else a chance. You really can't get any worse.

I really don't understand this logic. He's a bust. Cut your losses and move on.

I will give him until cut time next preseason. Until then, I get him out of the way of harming my team by not having him playing any meaningful minutes, while leaving open the slim possibility of starting the redemption this year in mop up duty.

Not a radical plan to me.
Rick
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Nov 23 2016, 08:37 PM) *
I will give him until cut time next preseason. Until then, I get him out of the way of harming my team by not having him playing any meaningful minutes, while leaving open the slim possibility of starting the redemption this year in mop up duty.

Not a radical plan to me.

Again, what do you hope to accomplish? Why is the NFL the ONLY major professional sport that seems to think you should only evaluate a player/coach on a full season of work? I realize it's only 16 games versus a lot more in the others but, we've got plenty of data suggesting NA sucks.So why waste a roster spot--and potential playing time for another player who most-likely will be better than him (maybe not much)? It makes absolutely no sense...none.

If he'd shown some flashes of greatness, I'd totally agree, but he has shown NOTHING during his time in the NFL. Worse, he's shown he has a propensity to actually HURT his team.

I really don't understand those of you who think he should be on the team after his pitiful performances over the course of 2.5+ seasons. You think he's going to wake up on Monday and come out and be the 2nd coming of Jerry Rice?
nephillymike
QUOTE (Rick @ Nov 24 2016, 08:28 AM) *
Again, what do you hope to accomplish? Why is the NFL the ONLY major professional sport that seems to think you should only evaluate a player/coach on a full season of work? I realize it's only 16 games versus a lot more in the others but, we've got plenty of data suggesting NA sucks.So why waste a roster spot--and potential playing time for another player who most-likely will be better than him (maybe not much)? It makes absolutely no sense...none.

If he'd shown some flashes of greatness, I'd totally agree, but he has shown NOTHING during his time in the NFL. Worse, he's shown he has a propensity to actually HURT his team.

I really don't understand those of you who think he should be on the team after his pitiful performances over the course of 2.5+ seasons. You think he's going to wake up on Monday and come out and be the 2nd coming of Jerry Rice?



It's only 1.5 seasons.

I know he's dropping too many, but he is getting open FWIW.

There is no harm in having him as a 5th WR to finish out the year and maybe get him some experience in mop up duty and then have him "tryout" next year.

I did not think he was 1st round talent, but I did have him as upper 2nd round, just like DGB.

As long as they get Turner and Treggs in there a lot to see what they can do, I'm K with DGB as a little used #4 and NA as a mop up only #5 for this year.

Next year, I get two more WR's, and he tries out and the best 5 make it.
Zero
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Nov 24 2016, 09:37 AM) *
It's only 1.5 seasons.

I know he's dropping too many, but he is getting open FWIW.

There is no harm in having him as a 5th WR to finish out the year and maybe get him some experience in mop up duty and then have him "tryout" next year.

I did not think he was 1st round talent, but I did have him as upper 2nd round, just like DGB.

As long as they get Turner and Treggs in there a lot to see what they can do, I'm K with DGB as a little used #4 and NA as a mop up only #5 for this year.

Next year, I get two more WR's, and he tries out and the best 5 make it.

Reasonable, but I think what they really need is a seasoned, accomplished vet who will not only set an example but be able to put things in perspective for the kids. This may actually be a good group of receivers - minus a true #1 - if they can calm down and just do what they did in college. DGB can be a real asset to the corps if he can just figure out the NFL game. Apparently it's the same thing with Agholor. Add Matthews plus a true #1 and these guys could become the strength of the team. Maybe they're all trying to be the #1 and trying too hard. Just do what got you here.

Roseman needs to add either a #1 WR or a top CB in FA. My choice is a WR who can step right in. Carroll is fine and a young talent will have a good chance for success playing with Jenkins, McLeod and Carroll. A guy like Jeffrey or even Garcon who's not a #1 could really help stabilize the WRs.
Phits
QUOTE (Rick @ Nov 24 2016, 08:28 AM) *
Again, what do you hope to accomplish? Why is the NFL the ONLY major professional sport that seems to think you should only evaluate a player/coach on a full season of work?

That's not true. Most professional sports evaluate talent and personnel after the season is complete.


QUOTE
You think he's going to wake up on Monday and come out and be the 2nd coming of Jerry Rice?

That would only be an issue if you drafted him with the expectation that he would become Jerry Rice.

QUOTE (nephillymike @ Nov 24 2016, 08:37 AM) *
Next year, I get two more WR's, and he tries out and the best 5 make it.

Precisely.
Rick
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Nov 24 2016, 09:37 AM) *
It's only 1.5 seasons.

I know he's dropping too many, but he is getting open FWIW.

There is no harm in having him as a 5th WR to finish out the year and maybe get him some experience in mop up duty and then have him "tryout" next year.

I did not think he was 1st round talent, but I did have him as upper 2nd round, just like DGB.

As long as they get Turner and Treggs in there a lot to see what they can do, I'm K with DGB as a little used #4 and NA as a mop up only #5 for this year.

Next year, I get two more WR's, and he tries out and the best 5 make it.

Yes, (more than actually) 1.5 season and yet not one inclination he's any good.

He gets open? Really? He rarely gets open like the other WRs on this team.

If he'd shown he can compete at this level I'd be with you but he hasn't...ever. No reason to hang on. You can get a look at another player who may be able to play. We know he can't. Plenty of playing time from him to see that.

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