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Joegrane
"per Pro Football Reference, it was the first time in NFL history a quarterback attempted 40 or more passes, hit on 70 percent or higher and averaged fewer than 5 yards per attempt "
nephillymike
Pardon me if I'm being impolite,

But would this be the ultimate " Checkdown Charlie" stat line?
xsv
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Nov 1 2016, 11:59 PM) *
Pardon me if I'm being impolite,

But would this be the ultimate " Checkdown Charlie" stat line?


yep. It feels a little like he's being coached to do that, tho.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (xsv @ Nov 2 2016, 05:47 AM) *
yep. It feels a little like he's being coached to do that, tho.

In this past game, it was clearly the case. Those naked bootleg tosses to the tight ends, countless bubble screens.

As I said earlier, Fran Duffy posted 11 different plays and only once did I see Carson unnecessarily checkdown to Sproles. And even that one could have been credited to solid positioning by the Dallas safety. Everything else was by design or out of necessity.
BisonEagleFan
It's tough when you haven't got any open downfield targets or should I say targets that can get open downfield. I'm sure Roseman will address that deficiency in the offseason via the draft and or free agency. Agholor needs to be gone after the season and they also need to address the RB situation. Sproles isn't getting any younger.
Phits
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Nov 1 2016, 11:59 PM) *
Pardon me if I'm being impolite,

But would this be the ultimate " Checkdown Charlie" stat line?


**ahem**
mcnabbulous
I never remember thinking Donovan was a checkdown Charlie and Wentz is currently averaging a higher YPA (6.7) than Donovan had until the 2003 season.

It's a WCO and he has no viable weapons. His numbers are actually pretty impressive for a rookie if you consider all the variables.

For reference sake, Donovan averaged 5.9 YPA his second season. Bradford averaged 6.0 and 6.1 in seasons one and two.
D Rock
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Nov 2 2016, 04:59 AM) *
Pardon me if I'm being impolite,

But would this be the ultimate " Checkdown Charlie" stat line?

No. When the play design has read #1 going to a player 2 yards behind the LOS, that is NOT a check down.

Is it cowardly play design? Yes. But check-down? No.

"Check-Down" is when a guy comes off read 1 and 2 down the field and takes the safety valve in the flat, or leaking out into the short zone.

Birdman420
At least the run game is between the tackles, that is one thing I'm thankful for.
Joegrane
Thanks for the stats. Donovan would break tackles and have his WRs running around for seemingly 10 seconds before launching a deep ball. I'm surprised at his low YPA; however, Andy called lots of screens and Westbrook was really good at executing them

I'm sure part of the low YPA for both of them is WCO; however CW has that shaky O Line. If he completes a high %, they'll move the chains and it will come down to Red Zone efficiency and TOs.

QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Nov 2 2016, 10:36 AM) *
I never remember thinking Donovan was a checkdown Charlie and Wentz is currently averaging a higher YPA (6.7) than Donovan had until the 2003 season.

It's a WCO and he has no viable weapons. His numbers are actually pretty impressive for a rookie if you consider all the variables.

For reference sake, Donovan averaged 5.9 YPA his second season. Bradford averaged 6.0 and 6.1 in seasons one and two.


QUOTE (Joegrane @ Nov 1 2016, 10:16 PM) *
"per Pro Football Reference, it was the first time in NFL history a quarterback attempted 40 or more passes, hit on 70 percent or higher and averaged fewer than 5 yards per attempt "

mcnabbulous
Hopefully this puts to rest the silly checkdown Charlie idea:

https://eaglesrewind.com/2016/11/03/its-tim...f-carson-wentz/
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Nov 3 2016, 08:57 AM) *
Hopefully this puts to rest the silly checkdown Charlie idea:

https://eaglesrewind.com/2016/11/03/its-tim...f-carson-wentz/

He dinks and he dunks. vs Dallas he had 8 competions that resulted in 3 yards or less. Perhaps the play calling is the reason, could be personnel or maybe he is just more comfortable in that role....time will tell. For now he is a checkdown Charlie.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Nov 3 2016, 09:26 AM) *
He dinks and he dunks. vs Dallas he had 8 competions that resulted in 3 yards or less. Perhaps the play calling is the reason, could be personnel or maybe he is just more comfortable in that role....time will tell. For now he is a checkdown Charlie.

If you have a confused idea about what a checkdown is then sure.

Dinking and dunking within the confines of the offense is one thing. The numbers indicate that's exactly what he was doing.

He wasn't (and I can't be more clear about this) checking the ball down.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Nov 3 2016, 10:37 AM) *
If you have a confused idea about what a checkdown is then sure.

Dinking and dunking within the confines of the offense is one thing. The numbers indicate that's exactly what he was doing.

He wasn't (and I can't be more clear about this) checking the ball down.


I keep forgetting that you know everything, including the coaches playbook and plays that are called.

QUOTE
In American football, a checkdown pass is when the quarterback attempts to complete a short, accurate pass to a running back or tight end as a last option when the wide receivers are covered. The term means that the quarterback has "checked down" his list of receivers.


Since the bye:
vs DAL - 9 passes to RBs and 6 passes to TE (out of 32 completions, for 202 yards)
vs MIN - 4 passes to RBs and 4 passes to TE (out of 16 completions, for 138 yards )
vs WAS - 2 passes to RBs and 4 passes to TE (out of 11 completions, for 179 yards)
vs DET - 9 passes to RBs and 5 passes to TE (out of 25 completions, for 238 yards)

CW, by virtue of the definition, is a "checkdown Charlie" and a dink and dunk specialist. Whether this is is by design or a result of circumstance the stats/numbers don't lie.
mcnabbulous
No, but clearly you didn't read that link I posted where the guy did, in fact, review every play.

If you're going to post those numbers, don't you believe they should be supported by identifying which of those passes to RBs and TEs were by design, as opposed to actually checkdowns?

Unless, of course, you don't understand the difference between the two.
mcnabbulous
I'll add that you posted the definition and then proceeded to follow it up with a thorough misunderstanding of the definition by saying...

QUOTE
Whether this is is by design or a result of circumstance the stats/numbers don't lie.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Nov 3 2016, 06:27 PM) *
No, but clearly you didn't read that link I posted where the guy did, in fact, review every play.

You mean the link from the writers observation regarding a perceived circumstance or play call?

QUOTE
If you're going to post those numbers, don't you believe they should be supported by identifying which of those passes to RBs and TEs were by design, as opposed to actually checkdowns?

Unless, of course, you don't understand the difference between the two.

How do you know for certain that the situation in question was in fact what you perceive it to be? There's 4 games of data detailing his checkdown ways.

As I have said, perhaps it's by design. Perhaps, Wentz was instructed to pass the ball behind the LOS if his first/second reads were covered. In any event, that's what he did/does and by definition qualifies as checkdown Charlie. The numbers support the argument.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Nov 3 2016, 06:26 PM) *
You mean the link from the writers observation regarding a perceived circumstance or play call?

Yes, the one where he observed that "only 16 of the 71 plays run by the Eagles involved at least one receiver running a deep route (totaling 20 yards or more)"

QUOTE
How do you know for certain that the situation in question was in fact what you perceive it to be? There's 4 games of data detailing his checkdown ways.

Are you sure, despite posting the definition, you understand what a checkdown is? Because every time you post, you make me think not.

QUOTE
As I have said, perhaps it's by design. Perhaps, Wentz was instructed to pass the ball behind the LOS if his first/second reads were covered. In any event, that's what he did/does and by definition qualifies as checkdown Charlie. The numbers support the argument.

No - it doesn't qualify as a checkdown. If it's a called screen to a RB, or a bootleg and short pass to a tight end (which we see plenty of) those aren't checkdowns. Checkdowns are when he looks down field and throws to a shorter option for one of several reasons (primarily being his down field options not being open).

A screen pass is not a checkdown. A designed pass with the first option being a TE or RB in the flat is not a checkdown. It's a playcall.
Reality Fan
Phits...it is hopeless....

The goalposts for Nabby move to suit his purpose....definition for one becomes excuses for another....

I am curious though....if the coaches don't use a player like DGB more it is "because they see something in practice" but if they don't allow Wentz to throw downfield it is because they are too conservative.

QBs are "game managers" or "checkdown charlies" only when it fits a narrative no matter how silly he looks saying it.

You get used to the moving narratives.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Nov 4 2016, 03:13 AM) *
Phits...it is hopeless....

The goalposts for Nabby move to suit his purpose....definition for one becomes excuses for another....

I am curious though....if the coaches don't use a player like DGB more it is "because they see something in practice" but if they don't allow Wentz to throw downfield it is because they are too conservative.

QBs are "game managers" or "checkdown charlies" only when it fits a narrative no matter how silly he looks saying it.

You get used to the moving narratives.


I think in this case, based on the in depth analysis article, he is free of the checkdown charlie moniker.

Using RF's process, maybe they see something in all of our WR's and that is why they don't go long.

If it's me, and we're seeing the same old man to man coverage, I send every WR, TE and RB long and have the kid run it three times a game in that set. It,s a guaranteed 15 yards and Then, I throw it deep on the safeties in a similar set, but have the seam guy go long and have the other routes curl up at 10 yard range. With our limited assets, we need to use the kid's legs.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Nov 4 2016, 03:13 AM) *
I am curious though....if the coaches don't use a player like DGB more it is "because they see something in practice" but if they don't allow Wentz to throw downfield it is because they are too conservative.

I actually think it was the combination of not trusting his receivers and OL which is why they didn't throw down field. Nothing to do with Wentz. Considering he was doing it pretty regularly until Lane went down, I lean towards the OL. Way more three step drops than previously.
QUOTE
QBs are "game managers" or "checkdown charlies" only when it fits a narrative no matter how silly he looks saying it.

I have no narrative. My eyes see what they see. Right now, I think they're being too conservative with Wentz. They should allow him to take him lumps this season. Instead he's being treated like Alex Smith or (gasp) Sam Bradford. I don't want that.

Admittedly, they are probably trying to protect Wentz from physical abuse, but it's at the risk of slowing his development.
Reality Fan

QUOTE
I actually think it was the combination of not trusting his receivers and OL which is why they didn't throw down field. Nothing to do with Wentz. Considering he was doing it pretty regularly until Lane went down, I lean towards the OL. Way more three step drops than previously.


so who were the WRs that were trusted last year or the vaunted O Line they trusted last year? Sometimes I do not think you follow the logic you try to put forth.....last year Peters played hurt or missed entire games....that did not matter to you?

QUOTE
I have no narrative. My eyes see what they see. Right now, I think they're being too conservative with Wentz. They should allow him to take him lumps this season. Instead he's being treated like Alex Smith or (gasp) Sam Bradford. I don't want that.

Admittedly, they are probably trying to protect Wentz from physical abuse, but it's at the risk of slowing his development.


I do not question your honesty.....your eyesight? absolutely.....

And some of the logic you use in defense of your eyesight....that is when I scratch my head....lol

mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Nov 4 2016, 08:20 AM) *
so who were the WRs that were trusted last year or the vaunted O Line they trusted last year? Sometimes I do not think you follow the logic you try to put forth.....last year Peters played hurt or missed entire games....that did not matter to you?

Well it was a completely different scheme and coaching staff. But again, you are trying to compare a rookie to a 7th year pro.

Bradford is exactly who we thought he was. He's proven it year after year.

Wentz is a rookie who's being handled with care. It's apples and oranges.

QUOTE
I do not question your honesty.....your eyesight? absolutely.....

And some of the logic you use in defense of your eyesight....that is when I scratch my head....lol

That's fine. I can deal with not seeing eye to eye with you on this.
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