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Zero
Bye week brings out the filler pieces that would ordinarily come in off season articles. This week makes me feel like a jelly donut without the jelly so I read these things. Nice jelly piece here.
QUOTE
The kid couldn't be this good this fast, so Vermeil started digging through record books and statistics to compare Wentz's first three games with the Eagles with the debuts of the NFL's greatest quarterbacks. Joe Montana? No. Troy Aikman. Hell no, not with that 1-15 Cowboys team. Dan Marino? No, not even him. None of them had played this well this early, and perhaps the closest comparison to Wentz was one from Vermeil's own experience: Kurt Warner and the 1999 St. Louis Rams.

"Where Wentz and Kurt Warner are alike is their personality profile, their temperaments," Vermeil, who turns 80 on Oct. 30, said in a phone interview Friday. "Nothing at all, at any time, flustered Kurt Warner. From the very first step he took on the field in the league opener in 1999, [offensive coordinator] Mike Martz coached him as if Kurt had been playing in the league for 10 years."

There's another common thread these two QBs have that likely plays a part in their demeanor and, ultimately their success: faith. Both Warner and Wentz are devout Christians.

I'm not suggesting that's the reason they are good, but in my experience strong faith has a tendency to ground us and serves kind of like fertilizer for our talents and our confidence. I'm also not tying success to Christianity. The faith I'm talking about is not specific to one religion but to a belief in something more relevant than football, fame or money. A belief that there is a divine power that guides all life.

You and I don't have to share their belief and success is possible without faith. But I think their faith is a significant part of who they are and why they are where they are. I also think that we would all benefit from having the same ingredient in our lives.
Joegrane
Thanks for the post. Vermeil's comparison of personality with K Warner is interesting--and hopeful.

You, understandably, tie Christian values to "religion;" however maybe the better term to use is culture or sub-culture. There are gangsta-rappers, California beach bums, radical Islamic terrorists, mid Western Christians, etc.

In various (sub)cultures different personality traits are valued.

This is an extreme example, but the radical Islamic terrorists value a fighting spirit. They also have attitudes towards women that make it acceptable for a group of guys to get a captured woman and one at a time "marry her" for an hour, use her then pass her on to his buddy who does the same. Women who don't cooperate could be caged and burned alive.

Rappers need to be cool, stylish but also tough.

Mid Western Christian values include hard work, group-first attitude rather than me-first, avoidance of excessive accumulation of $, stuff and pleasures. While a fighting-spirit is discouraged, endurance and toughness in the face of adversity is valued.

We could debate which values from each sub culture tend to lead to success in a particular environment, but so far, CW is helping to make it work for the Eagles.

I really think "helping" is the important word here. The Nick Foles-led Eagles of 2013 did not loose that playoff game to the Saints because of Nick. The D that year did a poor job stopping the passing attack of opposing teams. Chip's offensive pace may be part of the reason. The lack of pace on O is likely helping this D.


QUOTE (Zero @ Oct 1 2016, 07:56 AM) *
Bye week brings out the filler pieces that would ordinarily come in off season articles. This week makes me feel like a jelly donut without the jelly so I read these things. Nice jelly piece here.

There's another common thread these two QBs have that likely plays a part in their demeanor and, ultimately their success: faith. Both Warner and Wentz are devout Christians.

I'm not suggesting that's the reason they are good, but in my experience strong faith has a tendency to ground us and serves kind of like fertilizer for our talents and our confidence. I'm also not tying success to Christianity. The faith I'm talking about is not specific to one religion but to a belief in something more relevant than football, fame or money. A belief that there is a divine power that guides all life.

You and I don't have to share their belief and success is possible without faith. But I think their faith is a significant part of who they are and why they are where they are. I also think that we would all benefit from having the same ingredient in our lives.
samaroo
Being smart, 6'5" and having a rocket arm doesn't hurt.

I know lots of devout Christians who suck at sports. I also know lots of great atheist athletes.
Zero
Didn't mean to imply otherwise.
Pila
QUOTE (Zero @ Oct 1 2016, 11:56 AM) *
Bye week brings out the filler pieces that would ordinarily come in off season articles. This week makes me feel like a jelly donut without the jelly so I read these things. Nice jelly piece here.
The faith I'm talking about is not specific to one religion but to a belief in something more relevant than football, fame or money. A belief that there is a divine power that guides all life.

You and I don't have to share their belief and success is possible without faith. But I think their faith is a significant part of who they are and why they are where they are. I also think that we would all benefit from having the same ingredient in our lives.


I've spent over a decade in places where the absurdity of that belief, that there's a Divinity guiding our lives, is challenged daily.

At no point in time is anyone benefiting from narcistic, self-delusion.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Pila @ Oct 1 2016, 11:47 AM) *
I've spent over a decades in places where the absurdity of that belief, that there's a Divinity guiding our lives, is challenged daily.

At no point in time is anyone benefiting from narcistic, self-delusion.


narcissistic? Believing in something greater than yourself? I think you assign a rather poor adjective.

But look on the bright side, you finally found a negative for you man love target...lol
JeeQ
TLDR Version:

Wentz is the fucking man and we're blessed to have him

3-0, Go Eagles!
Zero
QUOTE (Pila @ Oct 1 2016, 11:47 AM) *
I've spent over a decades in places where the absurdity of that belief, that there's a Divinity guiding our lives, is challenged daily.

At no point in time is anyone benefiting from narcistic, self-delusion.

The point isn't if you, me or someone else believes. The point is that they do and I think it helps them. And to label belief in a divinity as absurd is, in itself, absurd. Because you don't believe it or because someone can't prove it doesn't make it not so.

It seems I'm becoming the captain of the G&G directional posts. bowdown.gif
Pila
QUOTE (Zero @ Oct 1 2016, 04:01 PM) *
The point isn't if you, me or someone else believes. The point is that they do and I think it helps them. And to label belief in a divinity as absurd is, in itself, absurd. Because you don't believe it or because someone can't prove it doesn't make it not so.

It seems I'm becoming the captain of the G&G directional posts. bowdown.gif

The absurdity lies in the narcissism that one is being personally guided by a higher power, while this same guiding light taking personal interest in your path to success allows for thousands of children to die of starvation and parasites that eat their eyes from the inside out on a daily basis.

There's no other adjective to use here to somehow make the logic work in the face of reason without centric self divorced from linear reality.

I'm sorry, there's no other way to make that work.
Pila
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 1 2016, 03:55 PM) *
narcissistic? Believing in something greater than yourself? I think you assign a rather poor adjective.

But look on the bright side, you finally found a negative for you man love target...lol

No way, if that were a deal breaker I'd have to end the overwhelming majority of my friendships. I overlook their flaws, and they overlook mine.

But I might reconsider if he starts making interceptions a regular part of his weekly habits! lol
D Rock
QUOTE (Zero @ Oct 1 2016, 12:56 PM) *
Both Warner and Wentz are devout Christians.

Yeah, but I won't hold that against them.

Wallowing in the willful ignorance and intellectual cowardice inherent in the worship of imaginary friends is common in this dumbass country.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Pila @ Oct 1 2016, 12:15 PM) *
The absurdity lies in the narcissism that one is being personally guided by a higher power, while this same guiding light taking personal interest in your path to success allows for thousands of children to die of starvation and parasites that eat their eyes from the inside out on a daily basis.

There's no other adjective to use here to somehow make the logic work in the face of reason without centric self divorced from linear reality.

I'm sorry, there's no other way to make that work.


I see your disconnect.....you think people of faith feel that their lives are "personally guided" and that implies that they are not in control.....it is quite the opposite. Surely you reference something from your experiences to guide your actions...it is no different. Think of it as their moral compass.
D Rock
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 1 2016, 05:48 PM) *
I see your disconnect.....you think people of faith feel that their lives are "personally guided" and that implies that they are not in control.....it is quite the opposite. Surely you reference something from your experiences to guide your actions...it is no different. Think of it as their moral compass.

Is that the same moral compass that moves the Vatican to tacitly support the systemic rape of generations of young boys? Or a different one?
Reality Fan
QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 1 2016, 12:52 PM) *
Is that the same moral compass that moves the Vatican to tacitly support the systemic rape of generations of young boys? Or a different one?


no...and that is the typical argument used by the mindless. In any faith one must remember that the leaders are human and to elevate them to any special level is silly.

Beyond that, you obviously missed the entire point because I did not reference any particular faith and likened it to what any person uses from their life experiences. We get it, Francis, you hate faith....relax.
Pila
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 1 2016, 04:48 PM) *
I see your disconnect.....you think people of faith feel that their lives are "personally guided" and that implies that they are not in control.....it is quite the opposite. Surely you reference something from your experiences to guide your actions...it is no different. Think of it as their moral compass.

In which case then, faith is of no consequence since those without it use the same mechanism. But the assertion was that the commonality making Warner and Wentz extraordinary was their mutual faith in the Christian gOD.

The fuel that drives personal ambition has nothing to do with faith. Those with the fuel that drive the extrordinary will exhaust their body of knowledge to find the inspiration. For the superstitiously indoctrinated, it might be some cultish faith, but this is an easily replaceable ingredient, or we'd only have success by those indoctrinated in superstition and self delusion.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Pila @ Oct 1 2016, 01:05 PM) *
In which case then, faith is of no consequence since those without it use the same mechanism. But the assertion was that the commonality making Warner and Wentz extraordinary was their mutual faith in the Christian gOD.

The fuel that drives personal ambition has nothing to do with faith. Those with the fuel that drive the extrordinary will exhaust their body of knowledge to find the inspiration. For the superstitiously indoctrinated, it might be some cultish faith, but this is an easily replaceable ingredient, or we'd only have success by those indoctrinated in superstition and self delusion.


I agree on the latter in as much as placing the sole reason for success on faith is sily...the former misses what orients their moral compass, for them it is their belief in God.

Pila
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 1 2016, 06:27 PM) *
I agree on the latter in as much as placing the sole reason for success on faith is sily...the former misses what orients their moral compass, for them it is their belief in God.

I begrudgingly accept that they find inspiration in their faith (lol). Many do.

What I took exception to is the assertion that faith makes them uniquely exceptional. That was the parallel Zero alluded to. I find that assertion absurd.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Pila @ Oct 1 2016, 01:31 PM) *
I begrudgingly accept that they find inspiration in their faith (lol). Many do.

What I took exception to is the assertion that faith makes them uniquely exceptional. That was the parallel Zero alluded to. I find that assertion absurd.


jumpclap.gif jumpclap.gif jumpclap.gif jumpclap.gif jumpclap.gif

lol.....But I also agree with you.......I think their faith keeps them grounded and that allows them proper focus on what they need to do to be successful and THAT makes them succeed. Their faith does not drive them to the weight room or the film room.lol
Pila
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 1 2016, 06:39 PM) *
jumpclap.gif jumpclap.gif jumpclap.gif jumpclap.gif jumpclap.gif

lol.....But I also agree with you.......I think their faith keeps them grounded and that allows them proper focus on what they need to do to be successful and THAT makes them succeed. Their faith does not drive them to the weight room or the film room.lol

We were almost there! lol

I think their humility keeps them grounded. I remain unconvinced that faith does that at all!

But let's pretend we agree anyway. I like it! lol
D Rock
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 1 2016, 06:04 PM) *
no...and that is the typical argument used by the mindless. In any faith one must remember that the leaders are human and to elevate them to any special level is silly.

Beyond that, you obviously missed the entire point because I did not reference any particular faith and likened it to what any person uses from their life experiences. We get it, Francis, you hate faith....relax.

You worship imaginary friends as a grown ass (old) man. And I'm the one that is "mindless."

laugh.gif
Reality Fan
QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 1 2016, 01:41 PM) *
You worship imaginary friends as a grown ass (old) man. And I'm the one that is "mindless."

laugh.gif



yep...whatever helps you sleep Francis......I am good with my life and, unlike you, bitter about nothing.

Feels great, sad you can't do the same.....tell your therapist....I don't need one.


oh...and before I forget..... laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
Eyrie
I'm tempted to send this to G&G just so I can join in devil03.gif

But instead I'll try to get the thread back to football.

Warner had a lot of experience from the Arena League and then NFL Europe before getting an opportunity in the NFL, which gave him both experience and maturity when he did get to start.

That is a very different starting position to Wentz coming out of North Dakota State and playing only part of just one pre-season game.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Oct 1 2016, 02:16 PM) *
I'm tempted to send this to G&G just so I can join in devil03.gif

But instead I'll try to get the thread back to football.

Warner had a lot of experience from the Arena League and then NFL Europe before getting an opportunity in the NFL, which gave him both experience and maturity when he did get to start.

That is a very different starting position to Wentz coming out of North Dakota State and playing only part of just one pre-season game.


Great point, not something I considered and very important. Lest we forget his humbling shelf stocking work as he played Arena football.
Joegrane
"Being smart, 6'5" and having a rocket arm doesn't hurt. "
"I know lots of devout Christians who suck at sports. I also know lots of great atheist athletes."

Sure but there are plenty of QBs who have good size, intelligence and arm strength, but are not succeeding to the same degree as CW.

K Warner also comes from that mid western christian sub-culture. I have no idea how much of what we are seeing from CW has to do with the similar sub-culture.

What is it about their values or sub-culture that helps them to succeed--to remain level headed amidst all of the attention, to remain a positive influence in the locker room and wider community, to avoid the Josh Gordon problems, etc?
Zero
QUOTE (Pila @ Oct 1 2016, 01:05 PM) *
But the assertion was that the commonality making Warner and Wentz extraordinary was their mutual faith in the Christian gOD.

Nope. That wasn't it at all. My point was that these two men shared faith as something that gave them strength, confidence and drive. I never said or implied that faith was the reason they were great and is a fabrication to say otherwise. Those arguing from this perspective are ignoring what I said.
QUOTE
There's another common thread these two QBs have that likely plays a part in their demeanor and, ultimately their success: faith. Both Warner and Wentz are devout Christians.

I'm not suggesting that's the reason they are good, but in my experience strong faith has a tendency to ground us and serves kind of like fertilizer for our talents and our confidence. I'm also not tying success to Christianity. The faith I'm talking about is not specific to one religion but to a belief in something more relevant than football, fame or money. A belief that there is a divine power that guides all life.

You and I don't have to share their belief and success is possible without faith. But I think their faith is a significant part of who they are and why they are where they are. I also think that we would all benefit from having the same ingredient in our lives.

I get confused easily, and it confuses me why people would use this post for their own soap box.
Pila
QUOTE (Zero @ Oct 1 2016, 11:28 PM) *
Nope. That wasn't it at all. My point was that these two men shared faith as something that gave them strength, confidence and drive. I never said or implied that faith was the reason they were great and is a fabrication to say otherwise. Those arguing from this perspective are ignoring what I said.

I get confused easily, and it confuses me why people would use this post for their own soap box.

It's quite possible I misunderstood. But if not for that commonality, why bother mentioning it at all?
Zero
QUOTE (Joegrane @ Oct 1 2016, 10:46 AM) *
You, understandably, tie Christian values to "religion;"

I tied it to their Christian faith because they both speak of that.
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