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mcnabbulous
Bradford drops a perfect pass into the corner of the end zone and the dude turns and tries to backpedal for it.

I'd like to believe it's just cause he's new to the offense, but I have a feeling that's exactly why he's new to the offense.
mcnabbulous
But yeah. You can't teach that.
Zero
Next time was right on though.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Zero @ Aug 27 2016, 08:32 PM) *
Next time was right on though.

Yeah that's what my second post was referring to
Reality Fan
I have to admit...after that first pass that he should have run under I thought the same thing......and then he showed why there is hype...and also reacted to the hot read.....that was a positive as well...that more so than the fade...he will be a tough cover and will help the TEs get singled or uncovered if he can do that
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Aug 27 2016, 09:59 PM) *
I have to admit...after that first pass that he should have run under I thought the same thing......and then he showed why there is hype...and also reacted to the hot read.....that was a positive as well...that more so than the fade...he will be a tough cover and will help the TEs get singled or uncovered if he can do that

Yeah I think we just have to take the good with the bad. He improves our WR group, but he's going to do dumb shit out there.
Joegrane
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Aug 27 2016, 07:38 PM) *
Bradford drops a perfect pass into the corner of the end zone and the dude turns and tries to backpedal for it.

I'd like to believe it's just cause he's new to the offense, but I have a feeling that's exactly why he's new to the offense.


I agree with you. I think he'll be another Josh Huff--tease you with talent on one play, then makes a bone head play.

QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Aug 27 2016, 11:21 PM) *
Yeah I think we just have to take the good with the bad. He improves our WR group, but he's going to do dumb shit out there.


The slower pace of this more traditional offense might help Huff.

The larger group of WRs might allow each to have a subset of responsibilities. However, they don't have even one complete outside receiver. Each guy has his limitations. It will be interesting to see how Pederson and Reich make that work.

If the O Line continues to give SamB time, those receivers will get balls to catch. He has been threading the needle.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Joegrane @ Aug 27 2016, 10:32 PM) *
The larger group of WRs might allow each to have a subset of responsibilities. However, they don't have even one complete outside receiver. Each guy has his limitations. It will be interesting to see how Pederson and Reich make that work.

It's easily the most concerning part of this roster. I just can't believe Matthews can't play on the outside. That concept bewilders me.
Joegrane
Matthews does not have enough enough size or speed or quickness out of the break to get separation when playing outside on a regular basis. Chip relied on the size mismatch against most smaller nickel DBs.

I expect him to play on the outside in two WR packages.

QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Aug 27 2016, 11:35 PM) *
It's easily the most concerning part of this roster. I just can't believe Matthews can't play on the outside. That concept bewilders me.

mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Joegrane @ Aug 27 2016, 11:07 PM) *
Matthews does not have enough enough size or speed or quickness out of the break to get separation when playing outside on a regular basis. Chip relied on the size mismatch against most smaller nickel DBs.

I expect him to play on the outside in two WR packages.

Oh I'm aware of his physical limitations. I've been saying it since early in his rookie season. My bewilderment is more in regards to how we drafted a guy in the second round with those issues.
nephillymike
I wonder if the fact that Matthews is a slot guy and DGB played some slot limits turner's chances of making the squad. One of those needs to be able to play outside.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Joegrane @ Aug 28 2016, 12:07 AM) *
Matthews does not have enough enough size or speed or quickness out of the break to get separation when playing outside on a regular basis. Chip relied on the size mismatch against most smaller nickel DBs.

I expect him to play on the outside in two WR packages.


Hold the phone....Matthews does not have the speed but what is the size comment about....beyond the fact that many outside WRs are tiny like Desean et al, Matthews is 6'3" and 205
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Aug 28 2016, 09:05 AM) *
Hold the phone....Matthews does not have the speed but what is the size comment about....beyond the fact that many outside WRs are tiny like Desean et al, Matthews is 6'3" and 205

Yeah I didn't quite understand that, because he then goes on to mention his size mismatch.

I took it as him meaning the combination of size/quickness?
Joegrane
Matthews does not have elite size/strength, or elite length, or elite straight line speed, ore elite quickness out of the break or elite ability to make tacklers miss. That is my point about him not being a #1 WR on the outside.

In contrast DJax has elite speed and allusiveness. He also has great hands.

When he is in the slot he is more often going against a smaller nickel DB where his decent size provides somewhat of a mismatch.

I think Chip drafted him somewhat high because Matthews has a reputation for being a high character, smart guy who could lead the rebuild of the WR corp. He would be the leader of the group. Also Chip needed someone to contribute immediately. A smart, high character, guy who was in college more than a year or two would be more likely to do that.

QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Aug 28 2016, 10:10 AM) *
Yeah I didn't quite understand that, because he then goes on to mention his size mismatch.

I took it as him meaning the combination of size/quickness?


QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Aug 28 2016, 08:03 AM) *
Oh I'm aware of his physical limitations. I've been saying it since early in his rookie season. My bewilderment is more in regards to how we drafted a guy in the second round with those issues.
mcnabbulous
Matthews has good size and straight line speed. That's about all I have to say about him.

Seems like a nice kid too.
D Rock
QUOTE (Joegrane @ Aug 29 2016, 02:01 AM) *
Matthews does not have elite size/strength, or elite length, or elite straight line speed, ore elite quickness out of the break or elite ability to make tacklers miss. That is my point about him not being a #1 WR on the outside.

In contrast DJax has elite speed and allusiveness. He also has great hands.

When he is in the slot he is more often going against a smaller nickel DB where his decent size provides somewhat of a mismatch.

I think Chip drafted him somewhat high because Matthews has a reputation for being a high character, smart guy who could lead the rebuild of the WR corp. He would be the leader of the group. Also Chip needed someone to contribute immediately. A smart, high character, guy who was in college more than a year or two would be more likely to do that.

I'm sorry, but in what non-NBA word is 6'3" "lacking in elite size?"

The shit you people convince yourselves of is nothing short of hilarious.
Joegrane
In a world with DGB at 6-5 237lbs with long arms

Matthews is only 6-3 212lb.

QUOTE (D Rock @ Aug 29 2016, 12:36 PM) *
I'm sorry, but in what non-NBA word is 6'3" "lacking in elite size?"

The shit you people convince yourselves of is nothing short of hilarious.

mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Joegrane @ Aug 29 2016, 03:56 PM) *
In a world with DGB at 6-5 237lbs with long arms

Matthews is only 6-3 212lb.

Yeah but Matthews is in the 75th and 78th percentile for WRs in height and weight, respectively. He's a big dude. Not freak big like the aforementioned DGB.

Matthews problem is that he doesn't have any short quickness.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Joegrane @ Aug 28 2016, 09:01 PM) *
Matthews does not have elite size/strength, or elite length, or elite straight line speed, ore elite quickness out of the break or elite ability to make tacklers miss. That is my point about him not being a #1 WR on the outside.

In contrast DJax has elite speed and allusiveness. He also has great hands.

When he is in the slot he is more often going against a smaller nickel DB where his decent size provides somewhat of a mismatch.

I think Chip drafted him somewhat high because Matthews has a reputation for being a high character, smart guy who could lead the rebuild of the WR corp. He would be the leader of the group. Also Chip needed someone to contribute immediately. A smart, high character, guy who was in college more than a year or two would be more likely to do that.


Antonio Brown....5'10"
Beckham.....5'11"
Hopkins....6'1"
Robinson....6'3"
Thomas....6'3"
Allen...6'2"
Fitzgerald...6'3"

That is 7 of the top 10 Wrs last year that are NOT bigger than Matthews. As far as all the other "elite" things he is not? Welcome to the NFL....none of those guys are elite at everything and some are not "elite" at anything but good at everything which is why they are successful. Matthews is elite at using his size to create separation which is why he is on his way to setting a record for most catches by a WR in NFL history in their first 3 years...so yeah...he is elite when you combine all his skills. In the slot he faces a lot of safeties and LBs where he uses his size well. In college he was an animal, he was unstoppable on a team that had no other real weapons. I suggest you look at his college career.
mcnabbulous
College success is irrelevant
Zero
QUOTE (Joegrane @ Aug 29 2016, 04:56 PM) *
In a world with DGB at 6-5 237lbs with long arms

Matthews is only 6-3 212lb.

I remember when receivers were normally around 5'11" and 185. I don't think 6'3" 210 is an "only."
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Aug 29 2016, 06:13 PM) *
College success is irrelevant



He played in the SEC so it is very relevant and further more, as I said, he is on his way to setting an NFL record for most receptions by a WR in their first 3 years so I would say he is doing ok in the NFL as well unless catches don't matter for a WR....lol
Joegrane
That was my original point. If Matthews had elite length like DGB, but his same speed, weight and mediocre lateral quickness, he'd be at least a solid outside Red Zone receiver.

I still think Matthews is going to be a solid player for them. He is smart, seems to work hard, has toughness and character. He has decent speed and size. He seems to have some leadership ability which is probably quite important for a team to have at his position.

I wish he had the reliable hands of Jason Avant who is listed at 6-0, and the same weight as Matthews--212lbs.

"Eagles head coach Andy Reid said Avant "has great hands, toughness, leadership; he's very intelligent and a good route runner."[3] Scouting reports projected him as a consistent possession receiver who lacked the speed to be a deep threat." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Avant

QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Aug 29 2016, 05:03 PM) *
Yeah but Matthews is in the 75th and 78th percentile for WRs in height and weight, respectively. He's a big dude. Not freak big like the aforementioned DGB.

Matthews problem is that he doesn't have any short quickness.

Reality Fan
QUOTE (Joegrane @ Aug 29 2016, 10:28 PM) *
That was my original point. If Matthews had elite length like DGB, but his same speed, weight and mediocre lateral quickness, he'd be at least a solid outside Red Zone receiver.

I still think Matthews is going to be a solid player for them. He is smart, seems to work hard, has toughness and character. He has decent speed and size. He seems to have some leadership ability which is probably quite important for a team to have at his position.

I wish he had the reliable hands of Jason Avant who is listed at 6-0, and the same weight as Matthews--212lbs.

"Eagles head coach Andy Reid said Avant "has great hands, toughness, leadership; he's very intelligent and a good route runner."[3] Scouting reports projected him as a consistent possession receiver who lacked the speed to be a deep threat." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Avant


Do you have a clue about the numbers Matthews has put up in his first 2 years? I mean seriously....you make it sound like he is some mediocre WR.....his numbers are ridiculous in his first 2 years...

Truly bizarre
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Aug 29 2016, 07:11 PM) *
He played in the SEC so it is very relevant

Not really. Lots of success in the SEC doesn't translate to anything.

Having watched the college offense he played in for the past two years, I'm quite confident I know how he racked up the numbers he did.

When I was watching his highlights after we drafted him, I recall being consistently alarmed by how little seperation he was achieving down the field. He made a lot of great catches, but they were routinely contested.

QUOTE
and further more, as I said, he is on his way to setting an NFL record for most receptions by a WR in their first 3 years so I would say he is doing ok in the NFL as well unless catches don't matter for a WR....lol

this seems to be one of those scenarios where you have created a false narrative in your head. I don't think anyone is suggesting that he's not a satisfactory wide receiver. He's just not special, due to his physical limitations.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Aug 30 2016, 10:59 AM) *
Not really. Lots of success in the SEC doesn't translate to anything.

Having watched the college offense he played in for the past two years, I'm quite confident I know how he racked up the numbers he did.

When I was watching his highlights after we drafted him, I recall being consistently alarmed by how little seperation he was achieving down the field. He made a lot of great catches, but they were routinely contested.


this seems to be one of those scenarios where you have created a false narrative in your head. I don't think anyone is suggesting that he's not a satisfactory wide receiver. He's just not special, due to his physical limitations.


A false narrative? He is going to set a record in the NFL for most catches by a WR in their first 3 years....how is that not special?

As far as you knowing how he racked up the numbers? Your scouting needs serious work...one of the biggest things about him coming out of Vandy was that he put up the numbers he did because they had no other weapons...none...the reason his catches were contested (besides the fact that he made them at a record setting pace in the SEC) is because he was double and tripled teamed routinely because Vandy had no other threats.

and here is how he stacks up up against Sammy Watkins
http://www.bucsnation.com/2014/5/6/5685722...jordan-matthews

He played with a mediocre QB and still put up the numbers he did....the guy is a very good WR...he is not just satisfactory...he is special. He is not Megatron but he is in the upper tier.
D Rock
He may also set a record for most drops by an NFL receiver in his first 3 years.

Remove his drops, and I'd see him as "elite."

mcnabbulous
I'm eager to see Jordan in a non-Chip offense before we make any definitive statements about the guy.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Aug 30 2016, 04:25 PM) *
I'm eager to see Jordan in a non-Chip offense before we make any definitive statements about the guy.


that is a fair point.....this year will be interesting for him
Pila
QUOTE (D Rock @ Aug 30 2016, 07:38 PM) *
He may also set a record for most drops by an NFL receiver in his first 3 years.

Remove his drops, and I'd see him as "elite."

Some guys catch the ball naturally. He's not one of those guys. But a good part of his drops were also due to bad fundamentals, like jumping unnecessarily just before the ball hits his hands. Improving on basic shit like that will help him diminish some of his drops.
Reality Fan
When you look league wide and compare the number of catches vs. his drops he is pretty high up there....his drop % is pretty low compared to other top WRs...only Julio Jones is better in the top ten. I guess it just looks worse to us because he is here but he is 21st in drops which is pretty good with his volume.
Joegrane
His numbers are over-inflated due to Chip's tempo and the lack of talent around him at WR.

Those numbers are with him working mostly out of the slot. I was addressing the concerns about his skill set not being ideal on the outside.

QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Aug 30 2016, 09:55 AM) *
Do you have a clue about the numbers Matthews has put up in his first 2 years? I mean seriously....you make it sound like he is some mediocre WR.....his numbers are ridiculous in his first 2 years...

Truly bizarre

Reality Fan
QUOTE (Joegrane @ Aug 31 2016, 04:36 PM) *
His numbers are over-inflated due to Chip's tempo and the lack of talent around him at WR.

Those numbers are with him working mostly out of the slot. I was addressing the concerns about his skill set not being ideal on the outside.


You assume they are inflated.....we will find out this year.
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