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nephillymike
His calling the Eagles dumb for signing Bradford and drafting Wentz brought his name back in the forefront of sports talk again this week.

One host asked the listening audience to name a few one word answers that describe and/or summarize him or his tenure here.

Here are the first three that came to my mind:

Best - as in the best QB all time of the Eagles. No question IMO

Over rated - with 2-3 legit Pro Bowl selections and the rest as injury/opt out fill ins, I think his play was over rated

Disappointing - I would say only mildly so, but his lack of good play in critical losses hurt.

Anyone?
Eyrie
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Aug 6 2016, 06:22 AM) *
His calling the Eagles dumb for signing Bradford and drafting Wentz brought his name back in the forefront of sports talk again this week.

One host asked the listening audience to name a few one word answers that describe and/or summarize him or his tenure here.

Here are the first three that came to my mind:

Best - as in the best QB all time of the Eagles. No question IMO

Over rated - with 2-3 legit Pro Bowl selections and the rest as injury/opt out fill ins, I think his play was over rated

Disappointing - I would say only mildly so, but his lack of good play in critical losses hurt.

Anyone?

I'm puzzled.

How can you say that he was our best ever QB, then claim that he was over rated?

It's very difficult to make comparisons between eras, so calling him our best ever is subjective unless you mean only the best that you've seen.

As regards overrated, most people recognise he was a very good but not elite QB which is borne out by his numbers and general performance. He would be overrated if anyone called him a Hall of Famer because the case for that would be very weak.

BTW, his comments on our moves at QB simply echo what has been said on here throughout the offseason.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Aug 6 2016, 04:19 AM) *
I'm puzzled.

How can you say that he was our best ever QB, then claim that he was over rated?

It's very difficult to make comparisons between eras, so calling him our best ever is subjective unless you mean only the best that you've seen.

As regards overrated, most people recognise he was a very good but not elite QB which is borne out by his numbers and general performance. He would be overrated if anyone called him a Hall of Famer because the case for that would be very weak.

BTW, his comments on our moves at QB simply echo what has been said on here throughout the offseason.


Over rated nationally.

Remember how they got ripped for letting him go to a div rival? what did he do there? In MIN?

Our best QB because frankly it's a real shallow gene pool. If you look at out history since the last championship, I think McNabb is very good, Randall was very good, Jaws above average, Dutch above average to good. That's it. Everyone else was below average.

If you haven't dated many knockouts and your girl is a decent looker, then she's the best of all time!!
The Franchise
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Aug 6 2016, 01:22 AM) *
His calling the Eagles dumb for signing Bradford and drafting Wentz brought his name back in the forefront of sports talk again this week.

One host asked the listening audience to name a few one word answers that describe and/or summarize him or his tenure here.

Here are the first three that came to my mind:

Best - as in the best QB all time of the Eagles. No question IMO

Over rated - with 2-3 legit Pro Bowl selections and the rest as injury/opt out fill ins, I think his play was over rated

Disappointing - I would say only mildly so, but his lack of good play in critical losses hurt.

Anyone?


He's correct, it was an incredibly stupid move. I hope I'm proven wrong, but what we gave up to add a QB from the Missouri Valley Conference when we have Bradford makes me think Howie's mind is under the control of Joe Banner.

As far as #5's standing in franchise history, in the modern era obviously he's the best one. Randall had more natural ability, but can't hold a candle to McNabb's accomplishments. The hate he gets from our idiot fan base is irrational, and more about pointing the finger at someone for not bringing us a title in that era. His worst enemy was the guy who drafted him, then called plays as if he was Tom Brady.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (The Franchise @ Aug 6 2016, 02:20 PM) *
He's correct, it was an incredibly stupid move. I hope I'm proven wrong, but what we gave up to add a QB from the Missouri Valley Conference when we have Bradford makes me think Howie's mind is under the control of Joe Banner.

As far as #5's standing in franchise history, in the modern era obviously he's the best one. Randall had more natural ability, but can't hold a candle to McNabb's accomplishments. The hate he gets from our idiot fan base is irrational, and more about pointing the finger at someone for not bringing us a title in that era. His worst enemy was the guy who drafted him, then called plays as if he was Tom Brady.


I really hate when I agree with you......but..umm...you are right.

That hurt so much to type....lol
Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Aug 6 2016, 01:22 AM) *
His calling the Eagles dumb for signing Bradford and drafting Wentz brought his name back in the forefront of sports talk again this week.

One host asked the listening audience to name a few one word answers that describe and/or summarize him or his tenure here.

Here are the first three that came to my mind:

Best - as in the best QB all time of the Eagles. No question IMO

Over rated - with 2-3 legit Pro Bowl selections and the rest as injury/opt out fill ins, I think his play was over rated

Disappointing - I would say only mildly so, but his lack of good play in critical losses hurt.

Anyone?


He was the best....no question...he may have evolved into a dick with some of his later comments but I don't know that I disagree with him all that much considering alot of the vitriol directed at him over the years.

Over rated is idiotic....only 2-3 legit Pro Bowls? Seriously....only 2 or 3 is weal?

You criticize Bradford for not being top QB with a terrible cast but downplay McNabb for winning a lot with a terrible cast? That makes sense...The only thing McNabb had that Bradford did not have in ST; Louis was a good O line and a great defense. As far as his lack of good play in a critical loss? 353 yds and 3 TDs in a SB? His play against Minny in the same playoffs? The GB playoff game?

There are so many games where he literally had to try to win the game himself because he had no WRs worth a damn and his RBs got hurt.....people forget things like the Carolina playoff game with no skill players left...if he had TO or someone similar for more than 1 year he would be in Canton is a heartbeat....people forget just how good he was with real WR.
Zero
How is it that ex-athletes get so smart when they retire? I really enjoyed DMac as a player but couldn't care less about his drama queen opinions about running a team.
The Franchise
QUOTE (Zero @ Aug 6 2016, 02:47 PM) *
How is it that ex-athletes get so smart when they retire? I really enjoyed DMac as a player but couldn't care less about his drama queen opinions about running a team.


He has a degree in speech communications (there's a softball for the haters). Compared to most other athletes, that's actually not a completely useless degree. Close, but not completely.

Point being, if most athletes don't get a job spewing their opinions on tv/radio post-career, they quickly go broke.

The Franchise
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Aug 6 2016, 02:38 PM) *
I really hate when I agree with you......but..umm...you are right.

That hurt so much to type....lol


laugh.gif

Isn't being right fun?

As for your other post, yeah when we gave #5 a real star receiver we went to the SB. Coincidence? Hell, he even made Kevin Curtis and Donte Stallworth look like #1's.
Joegrane
QUOTE (The Franchise @ Aug 6 2016, 02:20 PM) *
.... Randall had more natural ability, but can't hold a candle to McNabb's accomplishments. The hate he gets from our idiot fan base is irrational...


I largely agree with you on those points; however, #5's "dumb" comments over the years have earned him some of the criticism.

QUOTE (Zero @ Aug 6 2016, 03:47 PM) *
How is it that ex-athletes get so smart when they retire?....


Right, they don't! They just get microphones to blab into.

QUOTE (nephillymike @ Aug 6 2016, 01:22 AM) *
His calling the Eagles dumb for signing Bradford and drafting Wentz brought his name back in the forefront of sports talk again this week.


I would not have done the trade but I can understand why they did it. I won't be surprised if the kid becomes something approaching the next Big Ben R and by the end of his career is thought of as a better QB than #5.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Joegrane @ Aug 6 2016, 05:40 PM) *
I would not have done the trade but I can understand why they did it. I won't be surprised if the kid becomes something approaching the next Big Ben R and by the end of his career is thought of as a better QB than #5.


If anyone is surprised by that they are fools....it is what they should expect for the bounty paid.....I will not be surprised if he is a bust......
nephillymike
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Aug 6 2016, 06:44 PM) *
If anyone is surprised by that they are fools....it is what they should expect for the bounty paid.....I will not be surprised if he is a bust......



One way to judge the trade is that they spent the 2nd pick of the draft on the Kid.

The trades they made to move up to that spot was just trade currency to get to that spot.

If he performs worthy of that spot, then one can argue that all is good.

Since I'm in a win now mode, I'm OK with a red shirt year if he isn't the best QB, or even 2nd best.

As far as the trade currency used to get to #2, history has shown the trade chart to be too top heavy and if the sum of the lower picks turns out to be better than the Kid, then it is par for the course.

If you have your sights on a franchise QB, we would have either had to tank to Sixers proportions this year, or hope that a team that was that bad in 2016, makes the extremely unlikely move of selling the pick like CLE did this year. I've seen more tanks in this town lately than the fucking History channel.

Pay the bounty, draft the Kid. Time will tell. It isn't like we're stacked at that spot anyway.

I say go for it. And if they paid too much this year for QB's, so be it. How many years did we sit here wishing they spent the cap?

Maybe a different approach will bring unforeseen dividends.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Aug 6 2016, 06:44 PM) *
If anyone is surprised by that they are fools....it is what they should expect for the bounty paid.....I will not be surprised if he is a bust......

Betting on a young QB to be a bust is the weakest shit ever. Statistically, most QBs don't work out. It's the hardest position in sports.

He has all the tools. That's half the battle. The next step is developing them. A lot of things need to go right for a QB to work out, but if you're afraid to miss, you stand no chance of ever hitting.
Joegrane
I won't be surprised if he is only average, but for many reasons I will be surprised if he is a major bust.

Most guys who get picked at #2 are playing for dysfunctional franchises. Lurie has shown he can build a playoff caliber team.

Philly is a big market. There will be $ to spend on talent around the kid. This is not Jacksonville.

He has the physical tools.

I like some athleticism in a young QB. He can make a few plays with his feet to make up somewhat for his lack of refined knowledge and skill.

He is supposedly more intelligent than the average QB. When I compared QBs on mockdraftable.com the stat that stood out as a predictor of success was Wonderlic. While a few very athletic QBs had success without good scores--M Vick--generally the successful ones tended to be smart.

This may seem strange to some people but I like his Christian values and work ethic. My impression is that he is a fairly conservative Christian from the rugged north. The values that are often taught in that environment include hard work, toughness, sacrificing for the good of the group, being a decent responsible citizen, etc. I don't expect him to be out late getting drunk or beating up women or being greedy or being an egotistical primadonna in the locker room.

The one thing that can make me concerned about a conservative Christian is potentially a lack of toughness. However Wentz supposedly has a very competitive nature. He has a reputation for not liking to slide at the end of a run. His good size for a QB won't hurt here as well. Maybe he'll be fine in this area.

My impression from interviews with Eagles players is that they think he has good, natural leadership skills. This is in contrast to my impression of Bradford who I like for his accuracy. My impression is that McNabb was better at leading by example. He made plays with his legs and big arm.

He has a couple of ex NFL QBs as coaches and a couple of decent QBs ahead of him to learn from. He is not backing up RG III and playing for Buddy Ryan. R. Cunningham was amazing in part because Ryan dumped the Offense on Cunningham's shoulders while he stacked his D with lots of talent.

I think the list above is enough to keep him from being a major bust.

My concerns are listed below. I think they could keep him from being an above average QB.

I am uncomfortable with QBs who came from dominant, winning college programs. They had great O lines and weapons that overwhelmed most opponents. A pro example of this is N Foles in 2013. What will happen when Wentz has to face really good defenses with his modest group of weapons?

How will he adjust to the speed of the NFL game? One can have intelligence to remember what is needed and have a good understanding of concepts, but does the person have the mental quickness to make things happen in a timely fashion? N Foles seemed to be somewhat lacking in the latter.

How will the guy handle in-game pressure and stress?

Does he have the accuracy to get the ball into smaller pro windows?

QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Aug 6 2016, 07:44 PM) *
.....I will not be surprised if he is a bust......
nephillymike
QUOTE (Joegrane @ Aug 6 2016, 11:37 PM) *
I won't be surprised if he is only average, but for many reasons I will be surprised if he is a major bust.

Most guys who get picked at #2 are playing for dysfunctional franchises. Lurie has shown he can build a playoff caliber team.

Philly is a big market. There will be $ to spend on talent around the kid. This is not Jacksonville.

He has the physical tools.

I like some athleticism in a young QB. He can make a few plays with his feet to make up somewhat for his lack of refined knowledge and skill.

He is supposedly more intelligent than the average QB. When I compared QBs on mockdraftable.com the stat that stood out as a predictor of success was Wonderlic. While a few very athletic QBs had success without good scores--M Vick--generally the successful ones tended to be smart.

This may seem strange to some people but I like his Christian values and work ethic. My impression is that he is a fairly conservative Christian from the rugged north. The values that are often taught in that environment include hard work, toughness, sacrificing for the good of the group, being a decent responsible citizen, etc. I don't expect him to be out late getting drunk or beating up women or being greedy or being an egotistical primadonna in the locker room.

The one thing that can make me concerned about a conservative Christian is potentially a lack of toughness. However Wentz supposedly has a very competitive nature. He has a reputation for not liking to slide at the end of a run. His good size for a QB won't hurt here as well. Maybe he'll be fine in this area.

My impression from interviews with Eagles players is that they think he has good, natural leadership skills. This is in contrast to my impression of Bradford who I like for his accuracy. My impression is that McNabb was better at leading by example. He made plays with his legs and big arm.

He has a couple of ex NFL QBs as coaches and a couple of decent QBs ahead of him to learn from. He is not backing up RG III and playing for Buddy Ryan. R. Cunningham was amazing in part because Ryan dumped the Offense on Cunningham's shoulders while he stacked his D with lots of talent.

I think the list above is enough to keep him from being a major bust.

My concerns are listed below. I think they could keep him from being an above average QB.

I am uncomfortable with QBs who came from dominant, winning college programs. They had great O lines and weapons that overwhelmed most opponents. A pro example of this is N Foles in 2013. What will happen when Wentz has to face really good defenses with his modest group of weapons?

How will he adjust to the speed of the NFL game? One can have intelligence to remember what is needed and have a good understanding of concepts, but does the person have the mental quickness to make things happen in a timely fashion? N Foles seemed to be somewhat lacking in the latter.

How will the guy handle in-game pressure and stress?

Does he have the accuracy to get the ball into smaller pro windows?



I think he will be a good one.

They say he show leadership qualities in bunches and is very comfortable in his own skin. He laughed off the locked in a bathroom incident, saying to reporters for them to make it up as it was way more interesting than what happened.

I hope he doesn't get the chance to play this year. But I think he'll be a good one.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Aug 6 2016, 08:52 PM) *
Betting on a young QB to be a bust is the weakest shit ever. Statistically, most QBs don't work out. It's the hardest position in sports.

He has all the tools. That's half the battle. The next step is developing them. A lot of things need to go right for a QB to work out, but if you're afraid to miss, you stand no chance of ever hitting.


It isn't the weakest shit ever.....if they had the 2nd pick and took him instead of trading away valuable picks then I get it but trading the picks puts a target on his back even if Mr. Footnball thinks that is week....go back to your "Daniel got average backup money" bullshit or better yet...cal Nick Foles and tell him to get Daniel's agent. Seems he could not get that fucked up average you are so cavalier about.

Whne you take a guy at number 2 after trading a lot to get there he better be worth it.

And a lot of guys coming out of college "have all the tools"...that does not mean they succeed. There is a difference between not being afraid to miss and taking bad risks.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Joegrane @ Aug 7 2016, 12:37 AM) *
I won't be surprised if he is only average, but for many reasons I will be surprised if he is a major bust.

Most guys who get picked at #2 are playing for dysfunctional franchises. Lurie has shown he can build a playoff caliber team.



You mean like Sam Bradford?

Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Aug 6 2016, 08:10 PM) *
One way to judge the trade is that they spent the 2nd pick of the draft on the Kid.

The trades they made to move up to that spot was just trade currency to get to that spot.

If he performs worthy of that spot, then one can argue that all is good.

Since I'm in a win now mode, I'm OK with a red shirt year if he isn't the best QB, or even 2nd best.

As far as the trade currency used to get to #2, history has shown the trade chart to be too top heavy and if the sum of the lower picks turns out to be better than the Kid, then it is par for the course.

If you have your sights on a franchise QB, we would have either had to tank to Sixers proportions this year, or hope that a team that was that bad in 2016, makes the extremely unlikely move of selling the pick like CLE did this year. I've seen more tanks in this town lately than the fucking History channel.


The only way to look at it is the way it actually occurred....multiple picks and players used to move up.

Not sure how you justify any other way.....the players traded, while good moves to do so, could have yielded currency to improve other positions and those players need to be replaced. Moreover, multiple picks went out and those picks that came back were lesser picks than those that left in the trade. Those are the facts so no, you can;t look at it like he is just the number 2 pick unless you live in a fantasy world.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Aug 7 2016, 12:12 AM) *
You mean like Sam Bradford?



You mean playing for a dysfunctional team, not being an average QB right? blah.gif
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Aug 7 2016, 12:09 AM) *
It isn't the weakest shit ever.....if they had the 2nd pick and took him instead of trading away valuable picks then I get it but trading the picks puts a target on his back even if Mr. Footnball thinks that is week....go back to your "Daniel got average backup money" bullshit or better yet...cal Nick Foles and tell him to get Daniel's agent. Seems he could not get that fucked up average you are so cavalier about.

What the fuck does any of this have to do with the topic at hand?
QUOTE
Whne you take a guy at number 2 after trading a lot to get there he better be worth it.

Of course he better. But saying that you "won't be surprised if he is a bust" is like saying "I won't be surprised if this pizza tastes good."

Statistically it's likely to be true. You just want to be able to beat your chest in the future. If he has a great career you'll point to how you were impressed with him physically. If he busts out, you'll be all, "see see! I said he would be a bust." It's weak ass shit.
QUOTE
And a lot of guys coming out of college "have all the tools"...that does not mean they succeed. There is a difference between not being afraid to miss and taking bad risks.

Yes. Lots of guys coming out don't succeed. And many variables contribute to that. If you can get a guy that has a chance to a star at QB, the rewards far outweigh the risks. It's not even close.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Aug 7 2016, 09:22 AM) *
What the fuck does any of this have to do with the topic at hand?

Of course he better. But saying that you "won't be surprised if he is a bust" is like saying "I won't be surprised if this pizza tastes good."

Statistically it's likely to be true. You just want to be able to beat your chest in the future. If he has a great career you'll point to how you were impressed with him physically. If he busts out, you'll be all, "see see! I said he would be a bust." It's weak ass shit.

Yes. Lots of guys coming out don't succeed. And many variables contribute to that. If you can get a guy that has a chance to a star at QB, the rewards far outweigh the risks. It's not even close.


What it has to do with the conversation is that you routinely say foolish things as if they are fact and are easily disproven with easy to find examples.

It has nothing to do with beating my chest....and it is not as simple as "pizza tasting good"....they did not just take a risk on him at number 2...that would be like saying it is the same thing as taking a risk on Marcus Smith at 2. Granted Wentz was highly regarded in the dance that the draft has become but unlike Smith they spent tons of draft capital to move up to get Wentz...they did not just take him at 2. That amplifies the risk and I think it was foolish to do so. I have said I hope I am dead wrong, I really do. I would have been fine if they took him at 8 but the cost to move up to 2 was silly.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Aug 7 2016, 10:26 AM) *
What it has to do with the conversation is that you routinely say foolish things as if they are fact and are easily disproven with easy to find examples.

So nothing. Got it.
QUOTE
It has nothing to do with beating my chest....and it is not as simple as "pizza tasting good"....they did not just take a risk on him at number 2...that would be like saying it is the same thing as taking a risk on Marcus Smith at 2. Granted Wentz was highly regarded in the dance that the draft has become but unlike Smith they spent tons of draft capital to move up to get Wentz...they did not just take him at 2. That amplifies the risk and I think it was foolish to do so. I have said I hope I am dead wrong, I really do. I would have been fine if they took him at 8 but the cost to move up to 2 was silly.

Once again, evading the discussion. Of course it was risky. Literally no one argues with that. Saying, "he might be a bust" is weak. Of course he might be a fucking bust. More often then not, early QBs disappoint.

Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Aug 7 2016, 11:40 AM) *
So nothing. Got it.

Once again, evading the discussion. Of course it was risky. Literally no one argues with that. Saying, "he might be a bust" is weak. Of course he might be a fucking bust. More often then not, early QBs disappoint.


Nothing? It merely provides perspective on the value of your input.

And how am I evading the discussion? I can't be anymore clear. I think he will be a bust ebcause he played in a shit league where his backup (who did not get average backup money either) went 7-0 when Wentz got hurt so he clearly played against subpar talent. He is big and athletic but he did not dominate at the college level...he was good but his numbers were not amazing. The hype about him is purely physical. Apparently you are in the camp of "wow, he threw the ball 60 yards" and do not care if it is complete or not. I think, in their thirst to make a splash post Kelly they went crazy and took a risk that was a mistake. This was not going all in for a Luck....or some big program QB with a terrific track record. This was a risk driven by the hype that is the draft now. I don;t think he will be a bust because it is an easy guess...I think he will be a bust because of the league he played in, how he did there, how his back up did there and the analytics of his play there.......that is why I think he will be nothing more than mediocre. I hope I am very wrong...but it is more than guess work.

I look at the facts, those pesky things you hate.
The Franchise
Even from beyond the grave of his playing career, #5 gets Eagles fans bitching at each other.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Aug 7 2016, 12:52 PM) *
Nothing? It merely provides perspective on the value of your input.

And how am I evading the discussion? I can't be anymore clear. I think he will be a bust ebcause he played in a shit league where his backup (who did not get average backup money either) went 7-0 when Wentz got hurt so he clearly played against subpar talent. He is big and athletic but he did not dominate at the college level...he was good but his numbers were not amazing. The hype about him is purely physical. Apparently you are in the camp of "wow, he threw the ball 60 yards" and do not care if it is complete or not. I think, in their thirst to make a splash post Kelly they went crazy and took a risk that was a mistake. This was not going all in for a Luck....or some big program QB with a terrific track record. This was a risk driven by the hype that is the draft now. I don;t think he will be a bust because it is an easy guess...I think he will be a bust because of the league he played in, how he did there, how his back up did there and the analytics of his play there.......that is why I think he will be nothing more than mediocre. I hope I am very wrong...but it is more than guess work.

I look at the facts, those pesky things you hate.

Haha. With the exception of his backup going 7-0, none of the things you mentioned were facts.

I'm glad you're on record though. You think Wentz will be a bust.

I have no clue about the guy. He's got all the tools and a great coaching staff that gives him an excellent opportunity to be successful. That's pretty much all you can hope for.

But yes, yes. He's not Andrew Luck. Ya know, a guy that literally comes around once every 15 years or so. And if he were, I'm sure lots of teams would be anxious to trade away the opportunity to draft him.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (The Franchise @ Aug 7 2016, 02:56 PM) *
Even from beyond the grave of his playing career, #5 gets Eagles fans bitching at each other.

Donovan is definitely a lightning rod. When his career was getting started, I was sure he would deliver at least one superbowl. My biggest complaint is that his prime was shortened by what I viewed as a lack of conditioning.

He certainly is the best I've seen for our birds. Randall was probably more talented though. Regardless of how you feel about Andy, he certainly provided better offensive coaching than anything Randall was afforded.
nephillymike
A reminder of what McNabb's 1st season was like.

I tried to get his preseason stats but couldn't find them anywhere.

http://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl/philad...gles/stats/1999

And Bradford's

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play...0/gamelog/2010/

1st year is tough even for guys with D1 pedigree.
Joegrane
Yes, Sam was drafted by a dysfunctional offensive team but he had injury problems.

I suppose St Louis is more of a baseball town than football. I don't know their history of spending $ in free agency

I really wish he had ended up in Denver so we could have seen his performance when surrounded by talent.

QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Aug 7 2016, 01:12 AM) *
You mean like Sam Bradford?

Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Aug 7 2016, 04:07 PM) *
Haha. With the exception of his backup going 7-0, none of the things you mentioned were facts.

I'm glad you're on record though. You think Wentz will be a bust.

I have no clue about the guy. He's got all the tools and a great coaching staff that gives him an excellent opportunity to be successful. That's pretty much all you can hope for.

But yes, yes. He's not Andrew Luck. Ya know, a guy that literally comes around once every 15 years or so. And if he were, I'm sure lots of teams would be anxious to trade away the opportunity to draft him.


haha....really? What is not a fact? That his college stats were nothing special? His junior year playing in second tier league he averaged 195 yards a game? 25 tds and 10 picks? For perspective Btandon Daoughty threw 49 tds and 1o picks that same year. That same year his numbers would not even be in the top 20 if he was included in division 1 in any category. Those are facts. The only thing you can say is that he is tall, has a strong arm and can run.

I agree with you about not knowing anything about him...I have no clue either. I can only look at his college team and how he did playing in that league. My issue with him is the cost. They took a risk on a guy who has not played against top talent and that worries me. Playing against second tier talent and not destroying them is concerning.

And I agree he is not Luck and I don't expect him to be...which is why I don't think they should have made the trade....because now he needs to be Luck...he cost that much. I get taking a risk but the risk needs to be a calculated one not just doing it to do it.
Zero
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Aug 7 2016, 09:35 PM) *
I agree with you about not knowing anything about him...I have no clue either. I can only look at his college team and how he did playing in that league. My issue with him is the cost. They took a risk on a guy who has not played against top talent and that worries me. Playing against second tier talent and not destroying them is concerning.

And I agree he is not Luck and I don't expect him to be...which is why I don't think they should have made the trade....because now he needs to be Luck...he cost that much. I get taking a risk but the risk needs to be a calculated one not just doing it to do it.

These are valid concerns, but the team's argument also has merit. Success most often follows risk. Agreed, there are different levels of risk, which I think is your concern. But, a championship level NFL team without a championship caliber QB will likely be destined to be, at best, "almost" champions. That kind of team will have to either be extremely lucky (not a pun) or take an expensive risk to get a championship QB.

In the Eagles case, they're taking the risk in anticipation of having a championship team. If it works it's genius. If it doesn't, are we/they much worse off than being "almost?" Wentz doesn't have to be Luck, only good enough to be a championship QB .. a high bar, but not unachievable. He has the tools, and the team improved their odds by hiring a group of QB coaches to teach him. Now we just have to hope that the coaches can make the right decisions and teach the man to use his tools.

And BTW, how different are Wentz's tools from Luck's tools?
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Aug 7 2016, 08:35 PM) *
haha....really? What is not a fact? That his college stats were nothing special?

This is not a fact. The term, "nothing special" is subjective. I don't know how I can make it any more clear to you.


QUOTE
His junior year playing in second tier league he averaged 195 yards a game? 25 tds and 10 picks? For perspective Btandon Daoughty threw 49 tds and 1o picks that same year. That same year his numbers would not even be in the top 20 if he was included in division 1 in any category. Those are facts. The only thing you can say is that he is tall, has a strong arm and can run.

Comparing two college QBs who play in two dramatically different systems is a fruitless effort. I've never heard of Btandon Daoughty, but I can name 20 college QBs who lit it up that never had any real NFL prospects.

QUOTE
I agree with you about not knowing anything about him...I have no clue either. I can only look at his college team and how he did playing in that league. My issue with him is the cost. They took a risk on a guy who has not played against top talent and that worries me. Playing against second tier talent and not destroying them is concerning.

He did pretty well, all things considered. He didn't play in a wide-open, spread attack where he threw the ball 50 times a game. It was a west coast offense that leaned more heavily on the run than a lot of other teams. They're betting on his physical attributes, his intelligence, and their coaching staff to coach him up.

QUOTE
And I agree he is not Luck and I don't expect him to be...which is why I don't think they should have made the trade....because now he needs to be Luck...he cost that much. I get taking a risk but the risk needs to be a calculated one not just doing it to do it.

Here's the thing. There is no Andrew Luck. Certainly not available via trade. It doesn't happen.

They took a chance. Yes it was a risk. Saying the guy is gonna be a bust after a week of offseason shit is weak though. Like I said, it's statistically the likeliest outcome. If I bet in that 100% of the time, I'd be right about 80% of the time.


Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Aug 8 2016, 09:05 AM) *
This is not a fact. The term, "nothing special" is subjective. I don't know how I can make it any more clear to you.



Comparing two college QBs who play in two dramatically different systems is a fruitless effort. I've never heard of Btandon Daoughty, but I can name 20 college QBs who lit it up that never had any real NFL prospects.


He did pretty well, all things considered. He didn't play in a wide-open, spread attack where he threw the ball 50 times a game. It was a west coast offense that leaned more heavily on the run than a lot of other teams. They're betting on his physical attributes, his intelligence, and their coaching staff to coach him up.


Here's the thing. There is no Andrew Luck. Certainly not available via trade. It doesn't happen.

They took a chance. Yes it was a risk. Saying the guy is gonna be a bust after a week of offseason shit is weak though. Like I said, it's statistically the likeliest outcome. If I bet in that 100% of the time, I'd be right about 80% of the time.


See..this is where you are a complete schmuck.....his stats are not even the best in 1 AA but you are too fucking obtuse to even admit that simple fact......according to you, every other QB in the College ranks that was that had better numbers than Wentz ran a different offense....convenient and idiotic. He had a decent college career at a 1 AA school...He was not a college sniper like Flacco...he did not win the Walter Payton award like Romo....he wasa good QB....it is his physical stature that is what they are gambling on...that worries me. I said he is likely to be a bust before they took him....it was a risk not worth taking....and just because it is statistically likely that he is a bust no one should point it out? What fucked up logic do you use? I want to be wrong here...that is the funny thing and I have said it countless times....but I just don't see him living up to his billing and cost......there are few guys like Luck....you are correct...which is why you do not spend draft capital like you are getting one.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Zero @ Aug 8 2016, 06:24 AM) *
And BTW, how different are Wentz's tools from Luck's tools?


Funny you should ask....because Stanford ran the West Coast under Harbaugh....and his last 2 years he found a way to 69 TDs....I guess he did not have a problem finding a way to put up numbers in that offense...and they averaged over 200 yds on the ground both years. Luck is very accurate, big and very smart.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Aug 8 2016, 06:49 PM) *
See..this is where you are a complete schmuck.....his stats are not even the best in 1 AA but you are too fucking obtuse to even admit that simple fact......

Saying his stats are "nothing special" and his stats "aren't even the best in 1 AA" are two very different things. You'd have to be a real schmuck to not understand the difference between the two.

You have a hard time understanding the difference between opinions and facts. You've been doing it as long as I've been on this board. You've been called on it consistently.

This is common practice from you.

QUOTE
according to you, every other QB in the College ranks that was that had better numbers than Wentz ran a different offense....convenient and idiotic.

I never said this. I said he didn't run a wide open spread offense, which is the type that is usually producing all of there big numbers these days.

You really have a problem though. You take something that is posted, twist it all up in your head, then spit out whatever gibberish you believe you just read. Take a few deep breaths, maybe read it a second time, then respond.

QUOTE
He had a decent college career at a 1 AA school...He was not a college sniper like Flacco...he did not win the Walter Payton award like Romo....he wasa good QB....it is his physical stature that is what they are gambling on...that worries me.

What's your point?
QUOTE
I said he is likely to be a bust before they took him....it was a risk not worth taking....and just because it is statistically likely that he is a bust no one should point it out? What fucked up logic do you use? I want to be wrong here...that is the funny thing and I have said it countless times....but I just don't see him living up to his billing and cost......there are few guys like Luck....you are correct...which is why you do not spend draft capital like you are getting one.

You can say he's going to be a bust, but it's weak as shit. I'm not pretending it's a fact. It's my opinion.

You can say it all you want.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Aug 8 2016, 06:49 PM) *
See..this is where you are a complete schmuck.....his stats are not even the best in 1 AA but you are too fucking obtuse to even admit that simple fact......according to you, every other QB in the College ranks that was that had better numbers than Wentz ran a different offense....convenient and idiotic. He had a decent college career at a 1 AA school...He was not a college sniper like Flacco...he did not win the Walter Payton award like Romo....he wasa good QB....it is his physical stature that is what they are gambling on...that worries me. I said he is likely to be a bust before they took him....it was a risk not worth taking....and just because it is statistically likely that he is a bust no one should point it out? What fucked up logic do you use? I want to be wrong here...that is the funny thing and I have said it countless times....but I just don't see him living up to his billing and cost......there are few guys like Luck....you are correct...which is why you do not spend draft capital like you are getting one.


RF and Andy going to solitary confinement for use of the O word !!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dakxwoVV7yM
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Aug 8 2016, 06:56 PM) *
Funny you should ask....because Stanford ran the West Coast under Harbaugh....and his last 2 years he found a way to 69 TDs....I guess he did not have a problem finding a way to put up numbers in that offense...and they averaged over 200 yds on the ground both years. Luck is very accurate, big and very smart.

Luck threw 69 TDs on 776 passes (1 per 11.24 attempts)
Wentz threw 43 TDs on 556 passes (1 per 13.23 attempts)

Of course Wentz rushed for another 12 TDs his final two years, compared to only 5 by Luck.

They are different QBs. One is the best QB prospect to come out in the past 15 years. The other is a guy loaded with talent who our FO and coaches believe can be mentored to greatness. Those guys don't come around too often.



nephillymike
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Aug 8 2016, 08:40 PM) *
Luck threw 69 TDs on 776 passes (1 per 11.24 attempts)
Wentz threw 43 TDs on 556 passes (1 per 13.23 attempts)

Of course Wentz rushed for another 12 TDs his final two years, compared to only 5 by Luck.

They are different QBs. One is the best QB prospect to come out in the past 15 years. The other is a guy loaded with talent who our FO and coaches believe can be mentored to greatness. Those guys don't come around too often.



O VER RAT ED!!

http://www.nfl.com/player/andrewluck/2533031/careerstats
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Aug 8 2016, 06:49 PM) *
He was not a college sniper like Flacco

Here are the college stats for Joe Flacco and Carson Wentz. Just presenting the facts, without comment.

"College Sniper"
595/938 (63.4%)
41 TDs
15 INTs
9 Rushing TDs

"Future Bust"
358/566 (63.2%)
42 TDs
14 INTs
12 Rushing TDs


nephillymike
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Aug 8 2016, 08:48 PM) *
Here are the college stats for Joe Flacco and Carson Wentz. Just presenting the facts, without comment.

"College Sniper"
595/938 (63.4%)
41 TDs
15 INTs
9 Rushing TDs

"Future Bust"
358/566 (63.2%)
42 TDs
14 INTs
12 Rushing TDs



Just sitting here waiting.

Got my butter on my popcorn and my cold Pepsi by my side.......... devil03.gif
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Aug 8 2016, 09:08 PM) *
Just sitting here waiting.

Got my butter on my popcorn and my cold Pepsi by my side.......... devil03.gif

I can't wait smile.gif
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Aug 8 2016, 09:40 PM) *
Luck threw 69 TDs on 776 passes (1 per 11.24 attempts)
Wentz threw 43 TDs on 556 passes (1 per 13.23 attempts)

Of course Wentz rushed for another 12 TDs his final two years, compared to only 5 by Luck.

They are different QBs. One is the best QB prospect to come out in the past 15 years. The other is a guy loaded with talent who our FO and coaches believe can be mentored to greatness. Those guys don't come around too often.


ahhh...good..now we get to stats....

I like how you left out that Luck had 8 more picks but threw over 400 more times and played against a hell of a lot tougher competition

The only thing Wentz has is the frame and athletic ability....that is why I don't like the risk associated with trading away so much to get him.....I have said I would have understood taking him at 8...when you trade all the assets that they did it needs to be for a guy who has a better chance at being the guy.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Aug 8 2016, 10:12 PM) *
ahhh...good..now we get to stats....

I like how you left out that Luck had 8 more picks but threw over 400 more times and played against a hell of a lot tougher competition

I didn't leave that out. You pointed out Luck's impressive TD numbers. I pointed out that it was an unfair comparison.

Frankly, I'm not comparing Wentz to Luck. As I said, a Luck-type prospect comes out once every 15 years. I am clearly not the type that would wait around for that. I'm pretty on the record as willing to take bets on QB's because I believe the reward outweighs the risk.

QUOTE
The only thing Wentz has is the frame and athletic ability....that is why I don't like the risk associated with trading away so much to get him.....I have said I would have understood taking him at 8...when you trade all the assets that they did it needs to be for a guy who has a better chance at being the guy.

So you would take a bust at #8 but not trade for one at #2? Got it. That makes lots of sense.

Zero
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Aug 8 2016, 07:56 PM) *
Luck is very accurate, big and very smart.

I'd think Wentz has two of the three and the third is to be determined .. yes? He is and will be a "wait-and-see" risk for at least a year, maybe two to make up for his lack of reps in college. If he gives us ten solid QB years after that I think it was a reasonable price to pay especially considering that there are other important holes to fill in the next two years. I'd think Wentz dividends need to start coming in by 2018, maybe earlier.
JeeQ
Zero Playoffs Wins Since McNabb Was Traded After The 2008 Season

Nothing more needs to be said... we may end up hitting a decade without a playoff win at this point
nd9kel
QUOTE
So you would take a bust at #8 but not trade for one at #2? Got it. That makes lots of sense.


It's the loss of assets in the trade to #2 that will forever beg the question "what might have been." Sterling Sheperd was there for the taking for example.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (nd9kel @ Aug 9 2016, 12:50 PM) *
It's the loss of assets in the trade to #2 that will forever beg the question "what might have been." Sterling Sheperd was there for the taking for example.

With no one to throw the ball to Sterling Shepard.

From the Eagles' perspective, Carson Wentz would not have been there at #8. That was the real concern.

Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Aug 8 2016, 11:23 PM) *
I didn't leave that out. You pointed out Luck's impressive TD numbers. I pointed out that it was an unfair comparison.

Frankly, I'm not comparing Wentz to Luck. As I said, a Luck-type prospect comes out once every 15 years. I am clearly not the type that would wait around for that. I'm pretty on the record as willing to take bets on QB's because I believe the reward outweighs the risk.


So you would take a bust at #8 but not trade for one at #2? Got it. That makes lots of sense.


You truly are an idiot....if you could read you would already have your answer...I said I take the risk at 8 because it does cost me any more draft capital so the risk is mitigated.....are you that daft? Can you follow that logic? pretty simple.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Aug 9 2016, 04:16 PM) *
You truly are an idiot....if you could read you would already have your answer...I said I take the risk at 8 because it does cost me any more draft capital so the risk is mitigated.....are you that daft? Can you follow that logic? pretty simple.

No. Saying you think a guy will be a bust, but would draft him at #8 has no logic. You'd literally have to be an idiot to believe that.

Conversely, if you think a guy has a chance to be great, the draft capital used to trade up and get him is a non-issue.

What's funny is for 3 years, you've been giving me grief for saying that I would have drafted Geno Smith, but now here are you saying you would take a guy at #8 who you expect to be a bust, because it's worth the risk. It's almost like you're completely full of shit.

But I believe inquiring minds really want to know why Joe Flacco was a "college sniper", yet Carson Wentz was "nothing special". Just trying to understand those "facts".
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Aug 9 2016, 05:20 PM) *
No. Saying you think a guy will be a bust, but would draft him at #8 has no logic. You'd literally have to be an idiot to believe that.

Conversely, if you think a guy has a chance to be great, the draft capital used to trade up and get him is a non-issue.

What's funny is for 3 years, you've been giving me grief for saying that I would have drafted Geno Smith, but now here are you saying you would take a guy at #8 who you expect to be a bust, because it's worth the risk. It's almost like you're completely full of shit.

But I believe inquiring minds really want to know why Joe Flacco was a "college sniper", yet Carson Wentz was "nothing special". Just trying to understand those "facts".


Well it is a wash...you think I am an idiot and you prove you are....

Taking him at 8 meant we still had out first round pick next year...now we dont...that made it too expensive....it is one thing to blow a first round pick on a bust because you took a risk...it unconscionable to use 2. Eevry player taken in the first round is thought to have a chance to be great...do you think they take guys int eh first round they think will be mediocre? WTF?

I don't know how many more times you can come up with another completely fucked up idea....I thought the "Daniel got average backup money" was your high water mark but silly me...I suggest you read up on Flacco because that was the name given to him...I guess in your college QB evaluations you missed that....

And Geno Smith was a reach....because he was a dick....I understand why you like him...but that was the rap on him....great athlete...but an real asshole...at least Wentz has a good head on his shoulders....the worry is what happens when the dance gets faster....and he is having a hard time....unlike you I admit that I hope I am wrong...no matter what you will always keep saying the same stupid things.....for someone who has been wrong so many times you are too fucking stupid to admit it once.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Aug 9 2016, 05:11 PM) *
Taking him at 8 meant we still had out first round pick next year...now we dont...that made it too expensive....it is one thing to blow a first round pick on a bust because you took a risk...it unconscionable to use 2.

No, it's unconscionable to draft a guy at #8 you expect to be a bust. Which you said you would do. Our franchise used two first round picks on a guy they expect to be a star. That is the difference.

QUOTE
Eevry player taken in the first round is thought to have a chance to be great...do you think they take guys int eh first round they think will be mediocre? WTF?

Yes, many years there are definitely not enough guys with "first round grades" to be drafted in the first round. So teams have to take other players with lesser grades and lesser upside.

QUOTE
I don't know how many more times you can come up with another completely fucked up idea....I thought the "Daniel got average backup money" was your high water mark but silly me...I suggest you read up on Flacco because that was the name given to him...I guess in your college QB evaluations you missed that....

Use the search feature and find a post where I said Daniel got average backup money. Find one post and I will declare you smart for all eternity.

I don't give a fuck what Joe Flacco's nickname was. Does a college nickname represent some sort of "factual" statistical value to you? Explain to me how his stats equate to NFL success and Wentz's were "nothing special." Or keep dodging it.

QUOTE
And Geno Smith was a reach....because he was a dick....

I understand why you like him...but that was the rap on him....great athlete...but an real asshole...

There was definitely no rap that he was an "asshole." You're definitely making that shit up. There were questions about his attitude, but there was no talk that he was a bad dude.

Even that racist, Nawrocki, never said he was an asshole.

QUOTE
He doesnt have much presence, not much of a leader, one executive who studied Smith said. I dont think hes a bad person, but thats not enough to be a quarterback in this league.
Source

FWIW, the same article talks about what an awesome leader EJ Manuel is. What an important attribute!

QUOTE
at least Wentz has a good head on his shoulders....the worry is what happens when the dance gets faster....and he is having a hard time....

That can be said for every QB.

QUOTE
unlike you I admit that I hope I am wrong

Why would I hope that I am wrong? I am an Eagles fan and I anticipate that he will be good.

QUOTE
...no matter what you will always keep saying the same stupid things.....for someone who has been wrong so many times you are too fucking stupid to admit it once.

You keep going back to stupid, but your rambling posts are some of the most incoherent drivel on this board. Let me assure you, sentences neither start or end with a "...".

You're too stupid to actually figure out how the quote feature works after a decade on this fucking board. And you have the audacity to question someone else's intelligence.

I've admitted to being wrong about plenty. The problem is that you want me to admit to being "wrong" about shit I've never said.

I never said Geno was going to be great. I said he was worth the risk in that dogshit draft. Given time and proper development, I thought he had a chance to do good things.

I never said Chase Daniel was getting average money. I said he is getting high-end backup money and we will see other's getting similar money in coming years. He most definitely isn't getting starter money.

Since those are the only two you ever reference, I'll leave it at that. But feel free to name any other egregious statement's that you've made up in your head.

I would have you use the search feature to go find them, but you appear too stupid to figure out how that works.
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