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Reality Fan
They are likely going to be at least 20 million over the cap......Bradford will help lower that number in a trade...Peters is likely gone as well and that just gets them close to the cap.....now that Number 1 pick starts to look bigger.....this team will look pretty different next year....

All of that is before you even get to the FA....the punter, both kickers, 2 of the 5 WRs most likely to make the team....and Logan...

Phits
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jun 14 2016, 12:25 PM) *
They are likely going to be at least 20 million over the cap......Bradford will help lower that number in a trade...Peters is likely gone as well and that just gets them close to the cap.....now that Number 1 pick starts to look bigger.....this team will look pretty different next year....

All of that is before you even get to the FA....the punter, both kickers, 2 of the 5 WRs most likely to make the team....and Logan...

What's the (league) CAP increase next season?

Reality Fan
QUOTE (Phits @ Jun 14 2016, 12:34 PM) *
What's the (league) CAP increase next season?


The cap this year is 155....likely to rise to the mid 160s......Even after Bradford and Peters are gone they will still be at or slightly over the cap..........there is belt tightening to be done...
Zero
Better call Saul (Howie). biggrin.gif
nephillymike
The Piper Calls

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/philadelphia-eagles/cap/2017/

$31M.

Ouch!

I'm just going to try to enjoy this season and worry about future cap problems in the off season.

I'll try to enjoy the Cox signing, even though I have long term reservations.

He makes us a heck of a lot better on Sundays than anyone else does.

As I mentioned before, with the money Jeff shelled out, how can this NOT be a playoff team? It would seem to me to be some really stupid investment decisions if we aren't.
mcnabbulous
I would guess we will be offloading Sam, Peters, Barwin and Mathews, which is $46M.
nephillymike
And then there is this:


http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cash/

Uncle Jeffrey really stepped up this year. The Iggs are BY FAR, the highest cash spending team in the NFL this year.

If you click on the Eagles name in the table, it gives you the cash investment by player.

I saw the $280M guarantee number in the article RF referenced, but I didn't see that here.

Mind boggling.

As fans, we should appreciate the effort.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jun 14 2016, 07:49 PM) *
I would guess we will be offloading Sam, Peters, Barwin and Mathews, which is $46M.


No question....Bradford might be no loss...Peters? instant downgrade on your O line....Barwin may get extended....but they just clear up enough to sign your draft picks...and you need to sign your kicker, your punter and then Bennie Logan....there is no first round pick...and likely no impact FA.......

But hey....the cap doesn't mean a thing.......if Givens and Randle play well it will be hard to keep either..

This is why Bradford's money meant so much......and why Daniel's money means so much.....eventually it means they will have to sacrifice somewhere...next year....
nephillymike
Here's the "practical guaranteed" money breakdownfor the team:

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/contracts/

You can click on team in the team column up top and it sorts by team.

This year alone in practical guarantees (even though Fletch is only guaranteed for 35M or so, they won't cut him during the first three years of his contract so it is practically 63.3M guaranteed)

Cox 63.3
Johnson 35.5
Wentz 26.2
Curry 23.0
Bradford 22.0
Ertz 21.0
Brooks 21.0
Jenkins 21.0
McLeod 17.0
Daniel 12.0
Celek 6.0
Bradham 4.5
McKelvin 3.0
R. Brooks 1.5

That's $ 277M right there, just for this year's new deals alone.

I think only Cox and Jenkins have ever been selected to the Pro Bowl (not counting alternates).

Pedey has to make sure these guys come to play!
nephillymike
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jun 14 2016, 07:08 PM) *
No question....Bradford might be no loss...Peters? instant downgrade on your O line....Barwin may get extended....but they just clear up enough to sign your draft picks...and you need to sign your kicker, your punter and then Bennie Logan....there is no first round pick...and likely no impact FA.......

But hey....the cap doesn't mean a thing.......if Givens and Randle play well it will be hard to keep either..

This is why Bradford's money meant so much......and why Daniel's money means so much.....eventually it means they will have to sacrifice somewhere...next year....



If I read the charts right, it seems a Daniel's cut only saves us $1M in cap next year!
Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jun 14 2016, 08:26 PM) *
If I read the charts right, it seems a Daniel's cut only saves us $1M in cap next year!


Correct..his money is guaranteed....

next years team will look mighty different and the options to add players will be very limited......which was the poitn I was making previously....before some dumbass was saying how the cap is no big deal....

there will be a lot of changes next year.....whether we like it or not...
Joegrane
We need SamB to do well this year so we don't have to mess with most of his $ next year.

While I think we will miss Sam we may miss J Peters even more, mostly because we don't have a good replacement.

I assume they won't have the $ to sign an older veteran Right OT as a placeholder for a couple of years.

I would not expect a mid 2nd round pick to be ready to start at ROT in his rookie year. I was hoping they could use that pick for the starting RB of the future.

In 2017 the contracts of Peters, Barwin, McKelvin, R. Brooks, R Matthews, J Huff, and a couple of lesser O Linemen seem to make them vulnerable to becoming cap casualties.
http://overthecap.com/salary-cap/philadelphia-eagles/

They might not have an improved record in 2017 if indeed the cap limitations are as bad as we think they are.

QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jun 14 2016, 09:17 PM) *
Correct..his money is guaranteed....

next years team will look mighty different and the options to add players will be very limited......which was the poitn I was making previously....before some dumbass was saying how the cap is no big deal....

there will be a lot of changes next year.....whether we like it or not...
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Joegrane @ Jun 14 2016, 10:30 PM) *
In 2017 the contracts of Peters, Barwin, McKelvin, R. Brooks, R Matthews, J Huff, and a couple of lesser O Linemen seem to make them vulnerable to becoming cap casualties.
http://overthecap.com/salary-cap/philadelphia-eagles/

They might not have an improved record in 2017 if indeed the cap limitations are as bad as we think they are.


We need Bradford to be stellar to get back a bunch of picks.....we will need them

And all those possible "cap casualties" (there are a few morons on here who claim there is no such thing...you can always find the moeny...lol) will have to be replaced....and that will also cost money...

Howie will have his hands full next year.
Joegrane
Because of the 2017 cap hit I don't expect to get a haul for Sam, even if he has an above average season.

This site seems to indicate that the cap space in 2017 is currently neg 11 mil$ That is not too bad even if JL typically likes to have 5mil or so free space--assuming they trade Sam.
http://overthecap.com/salary-cap/philadelphia-eagles/

QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jun 14 2016, 11:27 PM) *
We need Bradford to be stellar to get back a bunch of picks.....we will need them

And all those possible "cap casualties" (there are a few morons on here who claim there is no such thing...you can always find the moeny...lol) will have to be replaced....and that will also cost money...

Howie will have his hands full next year.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Joegrane @ Jun 15 2016, 12:07 AM) *
Because of the 2017 cap hit I don't expect to get a haul for Sam, even if he has an above average season.

This site seems to indicate that the cap space in 2017 is currently neg 11 mil$ That is not too bad even if JL typically likes to have 5mil or so free space--assuming they trade Sam.
http://overthecap.com/salary-cap/philadelphia-eagles/


It is bad considering peters will be hard to replace while maintaining a good line...decent Tackles are not cheap. Barwin and Graham are your only other options, again.....expensive to replace. Add to that your Punter and kicker.....2 WRs and the big one, Bennie Logan, will all need to be signed or replaced. There is a host of ST players as well.

It will ne tough to sign the guys they want to keep and still add impact players at all....They will need high picks desperately and then hit on them.

Like I said, next year this team will change a lot.
Zero
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jun 14 2016, 09:17 PM) *
there will be a lot of changes next year.....whether we like it or not...

What bothers me about this line of thinking isn't that there's not reason to be concerned, the numbers obviously show they're stretched thin unlike the Eagles' historical cap position. We are all novices and amateurs when it comes to cap manipulation, Howard Roseman is proving to be a master, even better than his mentor, Joe Ratman Banner. And, coming from a professed anti-Axis optimist your position surprises me. I get Mikey Numbers' penchant to delve deep below the fraction line, and I'd even understand our tent-flying Scotsman if he were to do it because that's their DNA. But after watching HR Part Deux make the moves he's made this year I can't understand not at least leaving room for the possibility that he has some idea how he's going to make this work.

There's changes every year on every team. That's the nature of the NFL in FA. HR has demonstrated that he has some foresight for those things, better than most yet you don't seem to be giving him credit for that. The team's relevant UFA next year are:
Maragos
Jones
Logan
Goode
Carroll
Randle
Wisniewski
Givens
Dorenbos
Burton
Of those, only Logan, Jones and Dorenbos don't need to prove their worth this year. Givens and Randle are relevant because of the weak presumed WR corps and Burton could make himself relevant in a TE heavy offense. Other than that there's not a ton of stress on cap consideration. I'm curious where you see the big changes for next year.
Zero
QUOTE (Zero @ Jun 15 2016, 06:55 AM) *
I'm curious where you see the big changes for next year.

Maybe this?
QUOTE
ďYouíre going to see a different composition of the roster. I donít see Jason Peters surviving past this year. Heís going to have to have a great year to survive. Connor Barwin already doesnít seem like a fit with the change of scheme. Ryan Mathews continues not to be able to stay healthy. And [Sam] Bradford, you assume, is going to be traded or cut. So if you cut those four guys itís going to create a ton of cap room. You can get $7.75 from Barwin, $9.2 from Peters, if Mathews is injury-prone, thatís $4 million. And if you had to cut Bradford as opposed to trading him, thatís $13.5 million.Ē

If the Eagles trade Bradford, the cap relief jumps to $17.5 million. There is a potential savings of between $34.5 million and $38.5 million, then, if the team decides to part with the names Corry mentioned. Theyíre some pretty big names, which helps drive home the level of risk involved in the game of resource allocation and the importance of getting it right. But it shows that even though the dollars spent this offseason are staggering, there are ways to make it work.
This way --->

If Peters and Barwin, the more significant players IMO play well this year I'd guess HR can do a renegotiate magic act to keep them on board.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Zero @ Jun 15 2016, 06:55 AM) *
There's changes every year on every team. That's the nature of the NFL in FA. HR has demonstrated that he has some foresight for those things, better than most yet you don't seem to be giving him credit for that. The team's relevant UFA next year are:
Maragos
Jones
Logan
Goode
Carroll
Randle
Wisniewski
Givens
Dorenbos
Burton
Of those, only Logan, Jones and Dorenbos don't need to prove their worth this year. Givens and Randle are relevant because of the weak presumed WR corps and Burton could make himself relevant in a TE heavy offense. Other than that there's not a ton of stress on cap consideration. I'm curious where you see the big changes for next year.


How about you list all of the playoff wins under the "Master"

Logan will be pricey...you also conveniently left off either kicker as well.

The changes will come from releasing guys like Peters, Barwin, Graham and playing draft picks who need to excel. There will be little money to sign any FAs at impact positions. The numbers are what they are. Unless you can show me the magic that will change that......and I have not even got to the part where the owners rebel against the rocketing cap number.....
HobbEs
Anybody else wonder if Howie is on a real short leash? The way he's throwing around money it's like a win-now mentality. If the team bombs? Well then it's the next GM's problem.
Zero
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jun 15 2016, 09:15 AM) *
How about you list all of the playoff wins under the "Master"

Logan will be pricey...you also conveniently left off either kicker as well.

The changes will come from releasing guys like Peters, Barwin, Graham and playing draft picks who need to excel. There will be little money to sign any FAs at impact positions. The numbers are what they are. Unless you can show me the magic that will change that......and I have not even got to the part where the owners rebel against the rocketing cap number.....

Logan will be pricey and what kicker are you talking about? Do you deny HR has been very good at managing the cap?
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Zero @ Jun 15 2016, 10:48 AM) *
Logan will be pricey and what kicker are you talking about? Do you deny HR has been very good at managing the cap?


What I don't deny is the team's lack of success under Howie.....that is the yardstick....and for a guy who says that money means nothing to laud Howie's cap management while ignoring his lack of on-field success is a little odd..

I see you looked on Spotrac....they missed a few guys, like a lot....but either Sturgis or Parkey are both FAs next year...
So are depth players Kelly, Tobin and Goode

Also, Carroll

All guys that need to be replaced......none are super expensive but cumulatively will take a chunk of money.
Joegrane
Thx, yes I missed that. However even then it seems that they are not in terrible shape as long as Bradford is traded. Unfortunately they could loose both Peters and Barwin.

QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jun 15 2016, 11:19 AM) *
I see you looked on Spotrac....they missed a few guys, like a lot....but either Sturgis or Parkey are both FAs next year...
So are depth players Kelly, Tobin and Goode

Also, Carroll

All guys that need to be replaced......none are super expensive but cumulatively will take a chunk of money.

nephillymike
QUOTE (Zero @ Jun 15 2016, 06:09 AM) *
Maybe this?
This way --->

If Peters and Barwin, the more significant players IMO play well this year I'd guess HR can do a renegotiate magic act to keep them on board.


Peters will be their best OL this year, and Barwin will be the 2nd to Cox on the DL.

They can always make the numbers work. However, next year will be difficult.

The risk I see is that they paid most of these guys at Pro Bowl level, and cumulatively, they paid the team at deep playoff run level.

If you go man by man and ask what type of performance is necessary to justify what we're paying them, we better have a hell of a lot of Pro Bowl players next year.

If I put my 2016 hat on, you have to love what they've done, unless you think there were better options, or better use for some of that money in other positions that help THIS yer's team.

I don't know if I jump early to sign all of those guys not in the final year of their deal or FA.. With the exception of Cox, they needed to show me more first. Jenkins already got paid. Ertz and Johnson, I'd like to see more and don't mind paying a higher price after I do.

Banner used to get a discount to sign these guys early. Howie gives them a premium. Guys resented Banner after they got good and justified the signing. Hopefully these guys play well for us and Howie. Hopefully Pedey is adept enough at holding them accountable.
Zero
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jun 15 2016, 11:19 AM) *
What I don't deny is the team's lack of success under Howie.....that is the yardstick....and for a guy who says that money means nothing to laud Howie's cap management while ignoring his lack of on-field success is a little odd..

I see you looked on Spotrac....they missed a few guys, like a lot....but either Sturgis or Parkey are both FAs next year...
So are depth players Kelly, Tobin and Goode

Also, Carroll

All guys that need to be replaced......none are super expensive but cumulatively will take a chunk of money.

C'mon, RF. You're so twitchy to argue you're reaching and missing. I mentioned Goode in my post and, as you say, both Kelly and Tobin are lower priced players plus Tobin just signed a two year deal. Kickers also typically don't have pricey contracts. The team is loaded with CBs and 16 game should weed out the good from the bad. Carroll may be a cap problem if he surprises and becomes a necessity, but right now that's a prove it.

I used Overthecap as my source not Sportrac. And, don't make stuff up. I never said money means nothing, I asked why people were fixated on money.

Roseman has had success and major flops. It's disingenuous to look at one and disregard the other.
Zero
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jun 15 2016, 08:09 PM) *
I don't know if I jump early to sign all of those guys not in the final year of their deal or FA.. With the exception of Cox, they needed to show me more first. Jenkins already got paid. Ertz and Johnson, I'd like to see more and don't mind paying a higher price after I do.

It seems that the Eagles not only wanted to retain talent, but they felt they needed to repair morale and loyalty. I'm not sure what kind of price that carries, but if it was a legitimate concern they were proactive in addressing it.

My point is like you said, this is 2016 that they dealt with and looking at HR's history I'm guessing he wasn't working in a vacuum. I don't mean to crown him only give him some benefit that he can make things work in the future. It's just too easy to jump all over him when 2016 TC hasn't even started.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Zero @ Jun 15 2016, 08:30 PM) *
C'mon, RF. You're so twitchy to argue you're reaching and missing. I mentioned Goode in my post and, as you say, both Kelly and Tobin are lower priced players plus Tobin just signed a two year deal. Kickers also typically don't have pricey contracts. The team is loaded with CBs and 16 game should weed out the good from the bad. Carroll may be a cap problem if he surprises and becomes a necessity, but right now that's a prove it.

I used Overthecap as my source not Sportrac. And, don't make stuff up. I never said money means nothing, I asked why people were fixated on money.

Roseman has had success and major flops. It's disingenuous to look at one and disregard the other.


Roseman has had success? Really? Did I miss a playoff win? In his 5 years we had what? 2 WC appearances?

Don't tell me about hits and misses.....it is about wins and losses and playoff wins....for every "hit" there are tons of misses.

We are fixated on money because it is the currency that builds teams...you can't say you can't understand why people are "fixated on money" and then say money is important....that is ridiculous.. The cap is there for a reason, to limit what teams can pay so there is some semblance of competitive balance. I am not twitchy to argue, I just get tired of all the bullshitting to gloss over things this FO does or to justify questionable personnel moves.

Just so we are clear....you think they will have no problem signing impact FAs next year? Money won't be an issue?
Zero
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jun 15 2016, 08:44 PM) *
Roseman has had success? Really? Did I miss a playoff win? In his 5 years we had what? 2 WC appearances?

Don't tell me about hits and misses.....it is about wins and losses and playoff wins....for every "hit" there are tons of misses.

We are fixated on money because it is the currency that builds teams...you can't say you can't understand why people are "fixated on money" and then say money is important....that is ridiculous.. The cap is there for a reason, to limit what teams can pay so there is some semblance of competitive balance. I am not twitchy to argue, I just get tired of all the bullshitting to gloss over things this FO does or to justify questionable personnel moves.

Just so we are clear....you think they will have no problem signing impact FAs next year? Money won't be an issue?
So much to digest here I think I need to clear my bowels first. This is meant as a lure, a joke or maybe a come on to a barmaid someplace?

Wins and losses are solely the result of a GM and money wins games not talent. Now that I'm on the right track I'll undoubtedly understand more about the game. Thank you.

Why do you always want to attack? I didn't say money wouldn't be an issue, I said that ... never mind.

Reality Fan
QUOTE (Zero @ Jun 16 2016, 07:05 AM) *
So much to digest here I think I need to clear my bowels first. This is meant as a lure, a joke or maybe a come on to a barmaid someplace?

Wins and losses are solely the result of a GM and money wins games not talent. Now that I'm on the right track I'll undoubtedly understand more about the game. Thank you.

Why do you always want to attack? I didn't say money wouldn't be an issue, I said that ... never mind.


Z...sorry...just hard to stay on track with what the hell you are thinking...lol

Money is or isn't an issue?

GMs are judged by how the team does or judged by their draft record? Here I thought that GMs get fired for not winning but you have disabused me of that theory.

Howie has hit on a few picks...he also oversaw one of the worst drafts in Eagle history...

Let me spell it out for you so you understand my position. GMs have a pool of resources, the salary Cap and the Draft. From that pool yjeu need to identify talent in the draft and in FA. Money is finite with a cap so the wise use of money dictates the talent you can have on your team. There is a choice to be made, no doubt, when identifying the greatest position of need and spending money at those spots. The GM needs to find depth as well.

I will have to look at how Howie has done vs. the NFL drafting. So far, in his return, he has paid a premium for every player he signed. You could argue that he did well with Ertz, that is fair though not clear because Ertz is so erratic.

Ultimately, beyond drafts and FA, the GM is graded on whether his team wins or loses. If his team does not win he gets fired.
Zero
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jun 16 2016, 08:51 AM) *
Z...sorry...just hard to stay on track with what the hell you are thinking...lol

Money is or isn't an issue?

GMs are judged by how the team does or judged by their draft record? Here I thought that GMs get fired for not winning but you have disabused me of that theory.

Howie has hit on a few picks...he also oversaw one of the worst drafts in Eagle history...

Let me spell it out for you so you understand my position. GMs have a pool of resources, the salary Cap and the Draft. From that pool yjeu need to identify talent in the draft and in FA. Money is finite with a cap so the wise use of money dictates the talent you can have on your team. There is a choice to be made, no doubt, when identifying the greatest position of need and spending money at those spots. The GM needs to find depth as well.

I will have to look at how Howie has done vs. the NFL drafting. So far, in his return, he has paid a premium for every player he signed. You could argue that he did well with Ertz, that is fair though not clear because Ertz is so erratic.

Ultimately, beyond drafts and FA, the GM is graded on whether his team wins or loses. If his team does not win he gets fired.

Good response.

Believe me, I know that money is important but the team has had a completely different history with the cap under Lurie than what we're seeing now. I guess what I'm saying is that because it's so out of character for them, it's not unreasonable to give them the benefit of doubt and wait and see how they handle it.

With all of the Cap trophies they've won without a corresponding championship I'm anxious to see how the white knuckle cap management works. It's not that I disagree with anything you say, it's only that I'm not ready to jump onto the gloom and doom wagon because of money. I don't have the stats, but it seems teams have lost the Cap war and either won or come close on the championship thingee.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Zero @ Jun 16 2016, 09:58 AM) *
Good response.

Believe me, I know that money is important but the team has had a completely different history with the cap under Lurie than what we're seeing now. I guess what I'm saying is that because it's so out of character for them, it's not unreasonable to give them the benefit of doubt and wait and see how they handle it.

With all of the Cap trophies they've won without a corresponding championship I'm anxious to see how the white knuckle cap management works. It's not that I disagree with anything you say, it's only that I'm not ready to jump onto the gloom and doom wagon because of money. I don't have the stats, but it seems teams have lost the Cap war and either won or come close on the championship thingee.


You are absolutely correct...there are several teams that have managed a precarious cap and done well. Youa re also correct that the Eagles have never been in this territory. That is what worries me. With wise cap management, Howie did not do very well with FA (remember the dream team?) or the draft, now the draft will be incredibly important. I thought he did well with the FAs he signed but he paid a premium to do it. I think he got a good deal with Mcleod, not great but reasonable. I think he paid a premium for Brooks who has no Pro Bowls but got 3 million more per year than the guy with Pro Bowls that they would not renegotiate when he was at 4-5 million.

I guess my worry is centered squarely on Howie's ability to identify talent which will be the most important thing next year. Imagine if Barwin has a monster year? Rut Ro.....or if Peters rebounds....god is it going to be tough.
Joegrane
they also report 15mil$ in Dead Money against the cap this year, 2/3 of which comes from D Murray, B Maxwell even though they were traded!

I assume a Sam B trade would result in similar DM.

Releasing Barwin after this year--.6mil DM, 7.7mil freed.
Releasing Peters -- 2mil DM, 9mil freed

If M Smith can show he can be a solid rotational guy on the D Line it will be hard to keep Barwin, even though I like him, both on the field, in the locker room and in the community. However I assume Barwin is also a backup at SAM LB.

QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jun 15 2016, 01:02 AM) *
It is bad considering peters will be hard to replace while maintaining a good line...decent Tackles are not cheap. Barwin and Graham are your only other options, again.....expensive to replace. Add to that your Punter and kicker.....2 WRs and the big one, Bennie Logan, will all need to be signed or replaced. There is a host of ST players as well.

It will ne tough to sign the guys they want to keep and still add impact players at all....They will need high picks desperately and then hit on them.

Like I said, next year this team will change a lot.

nephillymike
Rumors of Jason Peters death have been exaggerated!!

Howie's problem was this year's draft.

He'll get a pass if Wentz is good, which I think he will be.

Other than Mills, I think the rest of the draft will be subpar to what they could have had.

But that's not a 2016 problem.

That's a problem for another day.

Reality Fan
I give Howie credit for his presser today where he acknowledged this year's money issues and the impact it will have on next year....he admitted they are out of their comfort zone this year and next.
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