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Zero
Honestly, I have a hard time imagining this scenario. It's not that I doubt it happened, it's just mind-blowing to think a player would presume to order the coaches to do anything. Unless Dannyboy has resolved to step back, I can't imagine the Redskins to ever be a true contender.
QUOTE
Feb. 5, 2013 — Griffin called for a meeting. He declined to tell Mike Shanahan what he wanted to discuss, saying only it was important. Griffin, Mike and Kyle Shanahan and quarterbacks coach Matt LaFleur gathered in the offensive meeting room at the team headquarters in Ashburn, Virginia. With the coaches seated, Griffin walked to a blackboard and wrote:

* Change things.
* Change our protections.
* Unacceptable.
* Bottom line.

Griffin instructed the coaches to let him speak uninterrupted and rolled through a list of grievances, stressing that substantive changes had to occur immediately. Scrap the pass protection scheme and start over, Griffin demanded. There were 19 plays — primarily those from the 50-series and quarterback draws — that were unacceptable. Griffin, who supported his presentation with video clips of each play, expected them to be deleted from the playbook. Bottom line, Griffin said, he was a drop-back quarterback — not a running quarterback.

The Shanahans had planned to increase the number of drop-back plays in the offense as Griffin developed. Their timetable wasn’t fast enough. Griffin ordered his coaches to let him play in a manner in which they believed he could not succeed. Throughout Griffin’s lecture, one name was stuck in Shanahan’s mind: Snyder.

“When Robert is standing there going through all of that, I know it’s coming from Dan,” Shanahan said.
Long live Snyder
Joegrane
Look not at his legs and arms but between his ears.

QUOTE
What went wrong with Griffin?
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Joegrane @ May 22 2016, 10:23 AM) *
Look not at his legs and arms but between his ears.



hahahahaha....great point..his legs threw the alley oop and his head dunked it.

His legs allowed him to excell until he got killed and then his head did not allow him to overcome the loss of his mobility.
mcnabbulous
His problem is that he came from an Air Raid offense and was thrust into action without having time to properly learn the NFL game. The fact that he had such early success was a testament to his natural physical abilities.

Once those diminished, due to the abuse his coaching staff put him through, he wasn't able to properly adapt.

If he dedicates himself to learning the game, he could still be okay. But he may be broken at this point.
Joegrane
: )

Is he much less mobile today when he is healthy?

QUOTE (Reality Fan @ May 22 2016, 01:22 PM) *
hahahahaha....great point..his legs threw the alley oop and his head dunked it.

His legs allowed him to excell until he got killed and then his head did not allow him to overcome the loss of his mobility.

Reality Fan
QUOTE (Joegrane @ May 22 2016, 02:01 PM) *
: )

Is he much less mobile today when he is healthy?


no idea how well his knee recovered......but his head clearly took longer if it has recovered at all....he has made some dumb comments in Cleveland already..
Dreagon
He took the NFL by surprise, had a good year, and became a legend in his own mind. Snyder reinforced that and probably ruined him for good. We'll see what happens in Cleveland.
nephillymike
And the team that signed this guy had no interest in our starting QB for $1M more this year.

And they passed on drafting the Kid we picked at #2.

I think it is just CLE being CLE. RG3 as starter? Really? And the people they let get away in the offseason?

CLE being CLE.
Joegrane
Maybe, I would not be surprised if you are correct.

However, we all have had employer-employee relationships that worked, and others that did not work so well. Maybe he will connect with Hue J in a way that will allow him to be productive. Maybe the haul they got from the Eagles will enable them to surround him with adequate talent.

Maybe the release from the Skins was a wake-up. Recall Chris Carter said getting cut by Buddy Ryan was a helpful wake up.

I'm not one to give up on people very easily. Maybe that's because someone impacted my life by not giving up on me.

That comment may seem to contradict my recent opinion about trading Okafor because he is not committed to playing D. The Sixers need to decide which two Cs they will go forward with. They need to turn one of them into a starter at a position of need. Okafor does not fit with NN whereas JE has a chance to develop a mid range game appropriate for a backup PF/4.

Maybe a change of team will be a helpful wake-up for Okafor. Maybe playing for a play-off caliber team wtih an All-Star leader will help him to understand.

QUOTE (nephillymike @ May 22 2016, 11:17 PM) *
And the team that signed this guy had no interest in our starting QB for $1M more this year.

And they passed on drafting the Kid we picked at #2.

I think it is just CLE being CLE. RG3 as starter? Really? And the people they let get away in the offseason?

CLE being CLE.
Zero
QUOTE (nephillymike @ May 22 2016, 11:17 PM) *
And the team that signed this guy had no interest in our starting QB for $1M more this year.

And they passed on drafting the Kid we picked at #2.

I think it is just CLE being CLE. RG3 as starter? Really? And the people they let get away in the offseason?

CLE being CLE.

Cleveland has new management and a new coach. Maybe Jackson sees a team that needs a ton of rebuilding and a talented QB who he thinks he may be able to fix. The bounty they received for #2 could make that an acceptable risk, especially if they don't believe they're going anywhere for the next couple of years anyway. I think Cleveland is trying to get away from being Cleveland.
Dreagon
QUOTE (Zero @ May 23 2016, 04:27 AM) *
Cleveland has new management and a new coach. Maybe Jackson sees a team that needs a ton of rebuilding and a talented QB who he thinks he may be able to fix. The bounty they received for #2 could make that an acceptable risk, especially if they don't believe they're going anywhere for the next couple of years anyway. I think Cleveland is trying to get away from being Cleveland.



Agreed. Cleveland has gone from misstep to misstep, and I think Jackson didn't want to start his tenure by dropping a new rookie into the fire and building a team around him on the fly. Better to wait a couple of years and drop the kid into a situation where he has a chance to succeed.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Dreagon @ May 23 2016, 09:01 AM) *
Agreed. Cleveland has gone from misstep to misstep, and I think Jackson didn't want to start his tenure by dropping a new rookie into the fire and building a team around him on the fly. Better to wait a couple of years and drop the kid into a situation where he has a chance to succeed.


Understandable...but then do you think that Tenn. or Tampa or Indy or Washington or Atlanta or Carolina or Jax made a mistake?

If Griffin does not get hurt you have to wonder where that goes.

I even left Russell out of the equation since he was a later round pick but you could include him as well.
Dreagon
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ May 23 2016, 10:05 AM) *
Understandable...but then do you think that Tenn. or Tampa or Indy or Washington or Atlanta or Carolina or Jax made a mistake?

If Griffin does not get hurt you have to wonder where that goes.

I even left Russell out of the equation since he was a later round pick but you could include him as well.



Well, I'm not sure how much the situations compare. Wentz haz tremendous upside, but I don't think he is anywhere near as NFL ready as Cam Newton, James Winston, or Andrew Luck. Cleveland had a choice of a developmental QB or building a team for a possible future pick to grow into. I think they made the reasonable choice, and if Griffin actually works for them (assuming he gets his head right) then that will free up a future first for other considerations. Still, this is Cleveland we're talking about....
mcnabbulous
I would argue Cam wasn't NFL ready at all. He had just about as little college experience of any QB in recent memory. And that experience was in a quintessential "college offense."

This idea that there is a script to follow is silly. Cam was/is a freak. That's how he made it work. RG3's success was a mirage. He didn't have the passing ability or experience to step in immediately. The offense he came out of in college is still yet to produce a competent NFL QB.

If Goff succeeds, he'll break the mold.

Reality Fan
I guess where we differ is pretty simple. First, many QBs who come out of college have tremendous upside, that is such a grossly overused phrase. As Tony Dungy (I think) said, potential is what gets coaches fired. I just believe that if a QB is drafted 1 or 2 or 3 than he should be able to step right in. I don't know that Wentz can't and he should be given the chance. I have read a lot on him at this point and there is plenty, particularly the analytics, that are worriesome.

With Griffin I am confused by the comments. His passing was hardly an issue and to suggest so is odd. His first game he threw for over 300 yards and he threw for 3200 yards with a 65% completion % and a pretty decent 8 y/a. That is hardly indicative of a a passing problem. It is not surprising that he had an issue with Kyle Shanahan's play calling, most do. His only poor game was when he was knocked out with a concussion against Atlanta. His passer rating eclipsed 100 7 times before getting hurt. To suggest that he was anything but a success as a rookie disregards history. He was NFC offensive player of the week several times as well as rookie of the week multiple times. Ngata hitting his knee is what caught up with Griffin, not defenses. He did not learn to protect himself. His knee was not the same the following year and it showed. That being said there was no mirage about his rookie year.

Snyder getting in his head and Shanahan insisting on playing him hurt to worsen an injury are the 2 things that ruined him.....I agree that he is likely broken at this point.

mcnabbulous
His threat of running was what opened up the passing for him his rookie year. Almost everyone agrees that he has serious issues reading NFL defenses.

The Baylor offense basically consists of bubble screens and go routes. That's not really preparatory for facing nfl defenses.

Had he not been thrust into action and instead properly taught NFL QB play, you have to wonder if it would have had better long term results.
Reality Fan
The threat of the run is what opens up the passing game for Russell and Newton, it has always done that all the way back to Cunningham.

I agree he needed a teacher, Shanahan should have been that guy. The biggest issue was trying to make him into something he is not, something few mobile QBs are. They compounded their error by hiring Gruden, another pocket passer guy. In the Eagles' case, they have the right style coach for a guy like Wentz.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ May 23 2016, 01:41 PM) *
I agree he needed a teacher, Shanahan should have been that guy. The biggest issue was trying to make him into something he is not, something few mobile QBs are. They compounded their error by hiring Gruden, another pocket passer guy. In the Eagles' case, they have the right style coach for a guy like Wentz.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. You mean making him a pocket passer?

I think that's exactly what they should have done. A pocket passer that can occasionally move the chains with their legs is the ideal QB, IMO.

The problem is that guys that come from his type of college offense are going to take a few years to become that guy (if it ever happens). Guys like Rodgers and Wilson come into the league with those abilities.

Donovan was almost the perfect case study for doing it the right way. He was quite obviously not ready as a passer his rookie year. But he was groomed to learn the passing game and leverage his considerable athleticism when necessary. Unfortunately, he never quite had the natural accuracy to be an elite passer. And then his athleticism deteriorated. But he's still an example of a guy being properly coached in the pro passing game without virtually any pro passing concepts in college to fall back on.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ May 23 2016, 05:47 PM) *
I'm not sure what you mean by this. You mean making him a pocket passer?

I think that's exactly what they should have done. A pocket passer that can occasionally move the chains with their legs is the ideal QB, IMO.

The problem is that guys that come from his type of college offense are going to take a few years to become that guy (if it ever happens). Guys like Rodgers and Wilson come into the league with those abilities.

Donovan was almost the perfect case study for doing it the right way. He was quite obviously not ready as a passer his rookie year. But he was groomed to learn the passing game and leverage his considerable athleticism when necessary. Unfortunately, he never quite had the natural accuracy to be an elite passer. And then his athleticism deteriorated. But he's still an example of a guy being properly coached in the pro passing game without virtually any pro passing concepts in college to fall back on.


Donovan started 6 games as a rookie and had nearly as many attempts as Pederson. But thanks for agreeing with me.

You do not draft a guy who excells at throwing on the run and then convert him into something he is not. That is silly. Why would you draft a guy and then try to remove what makes him great. DO you hope he can become a pocket passer?

What we think is or isn't the "ideal" QB is irrelevant.(I happen to agree with your ideal). You draft what is best for your system or change your system to fit who you draft. Taking away what a player is best at and hoping he is just as good in your style just multiplies the bust risk. It will be an interesting test case in San Fran this year.
Joegrane
RF, are you seriously going to flush the pick for SamB down the toilet to take a chance on Wentz?

I don't know how anyone could compare Goff's experience against high-level competition to Wentz's low-level competition? Wentz would be a pick-six machine by underestimating the quickness of defenders. He'd be vulnerable to sacks, strips and injury by underestimating the quickness of blitzers, etc.

And you'd do that to a kid in the City of Tough Love?!

I'm not interested in giving up a potential 2nd round pick in order to watch Wentz go though growing pains, certainly not when there is a QB on the roster who I think can be playoff-caliber and a team that has an outside chance to come together quickly and surprise people.

QUOTE (Reality Fan @ May 23 2016, 01:08 PM) *
I guess where we differ is pretty simple. First, many QBs who come out of college have tremendous upside, that is such a grossly overused phrase. As Tony Dungy (I think) said, potential is what gets coaches fired. I just believe that if a QB is drafted 1 or 2 or 3 than he should be able to step right in. I don't know that Wentz can't and he should be given the chance. ...
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ May 23 2016, 06:01 PM) *
Donovan started 6 games as a rookie and had nearly as many attempts as Pederson. But thanks for agreeing with me.

How did I agree with you? He didn't begin starting games until midway through the season and completed less than 50% of his passes.

What are you suggesting?

QUOTE
You do not draft a guy who excells at throwing on the run and then convert him into something he is not. That is silly. Why would you draft a guy and then try to remove what makes him great. DO you hope he can become a pocket passer?

Where RG3 is standing (whether it be in the pocket or on the move) has little to do with his struggles as a pro. The problem is that he never had to make progressions and go through NFL reads at Baylor.

QUOTE
What we think is or isn't the "ideal" QB is irrelevant.(I happen to agree with your ideal). You draft what is best for your system or change your system to fit who you draft. Taking away what a player is best at and hoping he is just as good in your style just multiplies the bust risk. It will be an interesting test case in San Fran this year.

What RG3 was best at was dominating in an offense that doesn't work at the pro level. It was a catch and throw offense.

It's not always about plug and play. Or fitting to someone's abilities. Sometimes NFL QBs are going to need to come in and learn. So you have to project what their skill set and abilities may lead to.

RG3 played in a very similar offense to Bradford in college. The big difference is that it leaned a bit more on his athleticism for some read option stuff. But he did most of his throwing damage from the shotgun within the confines of the tackles. The problem, as we are seeing time and time again, is that that offense is preparing guys to get it done in the NFL.

Unless they are given the proper tutelage, they are going to fail.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ May 23 2016, 07:27 PM) *
How did I agree with you? He didn't begin starting games until midway through the season and completed less than 50% of his passes.

What are you suggesting?


Where RG3 is standing (whether it be in the pocket or on the move) has little to do with his struggles as a pro. The problem is that he never had to make progressions and go through NFL reads at Baylor.


What RG3 was best at was dominating in an offense that doesn't work at the pro level. It was a catch and throw offense.

It's not always about plug and play. Or fitting to someone's abilities. Sometimes NFL QBs are going to need to come in and learn. So you have to project what their skill set and abilities may lead to.

RG3 played in a very similar offense to Bradford in college. The big difference is that it leaned a bit more on his athleticism for some read option stuff. But he did most of his throwing damage from the shotgun within the confines of the tackles. The problem, as we are seeing time and time again, is that that offense is preparing guys to get it done in the NFL.

Unless they are given the proper tutelage, they are going to fail.


Here we go again....hell, even Ruben Frank got this right.

McNabb saw significant action starting in game 2.....This is not about how well he played, it is about being able to start the real on-field learning immediately. It is the reason he was ready to help them get to the playoffs in year 2.

You cling to this belief that RG3 was caught up to by defenses. That simply is not true. Somehow you think that the offense he ran was a simple one yet defenses had a problem stopping him. You act as if the only thing that did stop him was not Ngata's hit on his knee. He was not healthy the next year because Shanahan played him hurt and damaged his knee further. He came back the next year hurt and in a very toxic environment and then Snyder hired another traditional QB style coach who was hell bent on forcing a round peg into a square hole.(I suspect that Griffin was a dick did not help the cause)

And Goff won't break the mold...Mariota ran the spread in college and yet seemed ready to play in the NFL. Cam Newton made the Pro Bowl as a rookie....regardless of whether you think he is a freak, he was a spread offense QB who did well in year one as a Pro. You can't discount him because it weakens your point.

My point is that injury stopped Griffin. The record is very clear as is the documented history on his knee. I think he is a knucklehead and that plays a role but had he stayed healthy he would have likely continued to do what he did. (although I think injury was inevitable)
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Joegrane @ May 23 2016, 07:25 PM) *
RF, are you seriously going to flush the pick for SamB down the toilet to take a chance on Wentz?

I don't know how anyone could compare Goff's experience against high-level competition to Wentz's low-level competition? Wentz would be a pick-six machine by underestimating the quickness of defenders. He'd be vulnerable to sacks, strips and injury by underestimating the quickness of blitzers, etc.

And you'd do that to a kid in the City of Tough Love?!

I'm not interested in giving up a potential 2nd round pick in order to watch Wentz go though growing pains, certainly not when there is a QB on the roster who I think can be playoff-caliber and a team that has an outside chance to come together quickly and surprise people.


ummmm...what?...lol

I would have traded Sam for whatever I could get. They could have likely gotten a 2nd from Denver but they asked for 2 end round picks.

But somehow you have misread much of what I have said here. I would never traded anything for Wentz. I don't compare Goff's experience to Wentz. I think it was an awful trade even though I hope I am wrong. That being said, if the Eagles feel he is good enough to give up what they did to get him than they should think he is good enough to start now. He will be the 2nd QB taken in in the top five to not start as a rookie (if their plan works) It is akin to having a chance to buy a new house and you go out and buy a fixer upper for the same money because it might be nicer when you are done.....might.
mcnabbulous
RF - I have a feeling you have no idea just how basic the Baylor offense is. Just calling it a "spread offense" is an understatement. It's basically a simplified air raid offense, which is really saying something.

Defenses didn't "catch up" to RG3. His rookie season was a mirage. He wasn't ready to really throw against NFL defenses. That never would have lasted regardless of coaching or injuries.
Joegrane
Maybe because they think Sam has significant value and they can show that to the league this year.
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ May 23 2016, 08:30 PM) *
..I would have traded Sam for whatever I could get. They could have likely gotten a 2nd from Denver but they asked for 2 end round picks.


Apparently they think he will likely be so good that he is worth grooming for a year. How many of the QBs taken in the top 5 played in the FCS and played for so few years in college?
QUOTE
... if the Eagles feel he is good enough to give up what they did to get him than they should think he is good enough to start now. He will be the 2nd QB taken in in the top five to not start as a rookie (if their plan works) ...


I think they'd like to have a chance to win more games this year. Sam gives them a better chance. Of course it gives them a chance to get a pick for him after he plays this year.

Whatever the combination of reasons it has been very costly in $ and picks. If Wentz is an average or better starter for 10 yrs people will probably say it was worth the cost.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ May 23 2016, 08:53 PM) *
RF - I have a feeling you have no idea just how basic the Baylor offense is. Just calling it a "spread offense" is an understatement. It's basically a simplified air raid offense, which is really saying something.

Defenses didn't "catch up" to RG3. His rookie season was a mirage. He wasn't ready to really throw against NFL defenses. That never would have lasted regardless of coaching or injuries.


I just want to be clear on this...they run the simplest offense on the planet but yet they rack up wins even after Griffin and no one has figured out his offense?

Here is an article for you:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/baylor-bears-t...iest-1447358072

Or

http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2...art-briles-2013

The QB reads to defense pre and post snap to determine where the ball goes....the WRs have to learn well over 100 routes, close to 200, very simple.

So you proved you how no idea how simple the Baylor offense isn't.

Your "mirage" season for Griffin ignores reality and injury. The only thing that stopped Griffin was his knee. It may still be an issue. That and the fact that he has a major attitude problem. You do not light up every team, week after week as a mirage. Watching Griffin week to week and Foles week to week and you can see which was the mirage.

Don't worry, I long ago gave up trying to change your mind, facts don't help. I just like to provide the fact based side to counter the fantasy.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Joegrane @ May 23 2016, 09:36 PM) *
Maybe because they think Sam has significant value and they can show that to the league this year.


Apparently they think he will likely be so good that he is worth grooming for a year. How many of the QBs taken in the top 5 played in the FCS and played for so few years in college?


I think they'd like to have a chance to win more games this year. Sam gives them a better chance. Of course it gives them a chance to get a pick for him after he plays this year.

Whatever the combination of reasons it has been very costly in $ and picks. If Wentz is an average or better starter for 10 yrs people will probably say it was worth the cost.


1. If they think Bradford will have significant value that means they think he will play well...so why make the trade to 2?

2. Obviouly they think that Wentz will be "so good"....but I ask your question right back at you...how many? None....there is a reason for that.

If Wentz is an average starter they will be in trouble.... to justify the cost..he needs to be above average.

I hope in 3 years we are all laughing at how silly it was for me to suggest not taking him.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ May 23 2016, 08:45 PM) *
So you proved you how no idea how simple the Baylor offense isn't.

One of your articles to support your argument that Baylor's offense wasn't a detriment to RG3's NFL development pointed out, astutely, that both Nick Florence and Bryce Petty matched or exceeded his success within. Which isn't to say those guys weren't well suited for that offense. It's to say that offense doesn't produce NFL QB's.

Another one of Art Briles' college success stories: Kevin Kolb.

The Shanahans did him a disservice by running him into the ground, but it's the only way he could have succeeded that season. If he had been properly tutored in the pro game, and eased into things, he could have developed as a passer. I'll be surprised if that ever happens now.

QUOTE
You do not light up every team, week after week as a mirage. Watching Griffin week to week and Foles week to week and you can see which was the mirage.

You typed those two sentences back to back without irony? Classic stuff, man. Classic stuff.

The Baylor offense is basic in form. It's a tempo, spread offense that relies on WR screens and go routes. And speed. Those things can only take you so far. And that place usually isn't the NFL.

Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ May 23 2016, 10:46 PM) *
You typed those two sentences back to back without irony? Classic stuff, man. Classic stuff.

The Baylor offense is basic in form. It's a tempo, spread offense that relies on WR screens and go routes. And speed. Those things can only take you so far. And that place usually isn't the NFL.


Would you like me to start listing programs that produced great QBs and busts? You mention Kolb as if Baylor is unique in sending unsuccessful QBs into the league and that is an indictment of their program.....

Maybe Michigan has a horribly simple offense because Brady is the only worthwhile QB to come out of there.....great logic.

Now the only irony is you missed the point entirely....it comes as no surprise that you would watch the 2 play and not see the point.

And you miss a huge component of Briles offense....the pre snap read and the running game component that it utilizes.
They had 2 1,000 yard rushers last year...they have a 1,000 yard rusher at RB every year....you really do not understand it very much at all. Much like Kelly's offense it is about creating mismatches, identifying them pre snap (you know, like you tout old Hack for) and then making a quick read post snap and going to the weak spot.



Joegrane
Don't get me wrong, I was not a huge fan of the trade up; however, I knew nothing about Wentz. He is growing on me based on what I've seen and heard.

This little interview with N Goode is an example of what I hope to hear from the teammates.
http://www.csnphilly.com/video/najee-goode...ic-people-think

I hope to hear throughout the season that they are growing in confidence in Wentz. Eventually they will feel that Wentz gives them the best chance to win. I don't expect that to be this year. I'm okay with the time this process will take

I said "average" because it is unrealistic for the guy to be above average in the first and last couple of years.

We've seen the past couple of years that you don't need a ProBowl QB to win the SB if you have a very good D.

QUOTE (Reality Fan @ May 23 2016, 09:50 PM) *
1. If they think Bradford will have significant value that means they think he will play well...so why make the trade to 2?

2. Obviouly they think that Wentz will be "so good"....but I ask your question right back at you...how many? None....there is a reason for that.

If Wentz is an average starter they will be in trouble.... to justify the cost..he needs to be above average.

I hope in 3 years we are all laughing at how silly it was for me to suggest not taking him.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ May 23 2016, 10:43 PM) *
Would you like me to start listing programs that produced great QBs and busts? You mention Kolb as if Baylor is unique in sending unsuccessful QBs into the league and that is an indictment of their program.....

There are tons of guys that have played in Air Raid style offenses that have struggled when reaching the NFL. There are zero that have succeeded. Zero.

QUOTE
Maybe Michigan has a horribly simple offense because Brady is the only worthwhile QB to come out of there.....great logic.

Well, Brian Griese had a 10 year NFL career around the same time Brady went through there. They also didn't put out year after year of mind boggling numbers in college though. So it's actually a pretty terrible comparison.

But two guys with healthy NFL careers from the same school in a short time period is actually pretty unique.

QUOTE
Now the only irony is you missed the point entirely....it comes as no surprise that you would watch the 2 play and not see the point.

Ooh I can't wait to see what's coming next...because I'm still pretty sure you have no idea how bad your RG3/Foles mirage example was.
QUOTE
And you miss a huge component of Briles offense....the pre snap read and the running game component that it utilizes.
They had 2 1,000 yard rushers last year...they have a 1,000 yard rusher at RB every year....you really do not understand it very much at all. Much like Kelly's offense it is about creating mismatches, identifying them pre snap (you know, like you tout old Hack for) and then making a quick read post snap and going to the weak spot.

And how does that prepare a QB for the NFL? Here's the answer that's going to twist your mind. It absolutely doesn't. As evidenced by the countless QB's who have come from that offense (or similar) and struggled in all of the key post snap elements of playing the game.

Alright man, I've got a diaper to change, but it's sure to stink less than your logic in this thread.

D Rock
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ May 23 2016, 05:15 PM) *
The Baylor offense basically consists of bubble screens and go routes. That's not really preparatory for facing nfl defenses.

Sounds like Geno Smith....

ohmy.gif
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (D Rock @ May 24 2016, 12:28 AM) *
Sounds like Geno Smith....

ohmy.gif

You're exactly right. Dana Holgorsen (HC at WVU) cut his teeth under Hall Mumme (the father of the Air Raid) in one of his early coaching gigs. Mumme produced NFL bust Tim Couch.

While he never worked directly with Art Briles, he took over as OC at Houston (under HC Kevin Sumlin) the year after Briles left for Baylor. Sumlin's version of the Air Raid produced NFL bust Johhny Manziel. Are you seeing a trend here?

One of Holgorsen's first gigs was along side Sonny Dykes as co-offensive coordinators at Texas Tech. Sonny Dykes is the current HC at Cal. You may recall where #1 pick Jared Goff went to school.

The HC at Texas Tech at that time was Mike Leach, who most people think of when they think of the Air Raid. While Leach didn't have any notable high draft picks, he was the OC at Oklahoma when Josh Heupel was there. Heupel went on to become the QB coach at the time our boy Sammy Sleeves was tearing up the college scene.

Want to know a few other QBs that were directly coached by (and thrived under) Dana Holgorsen? Brandon Weeden and Case Keenum.

That offense is exactly why I thought Geno needed one, maybe two years before seeing the field. But everyone disregarded that key component of my opinion on the guy.

But sure. Those are all coincidences. RG3's problems are just the product of injury. Nothing else to see here.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ May 24 2016, 12:06 AM) *
There are tons of guys that have played in Air Raid style offenses that have struggled when reaching the NFL. There are zero that have succeeded. Zero.


Well, Brian Griese had a 10 year NFL career around the same time Brady went through there. They also didn't put out year after year of mind boggling numbers in college though. So it's actually a pretty terrible comparison.

But two guys with healthy NFL careers from the same school in a short time period is actually pretty unique.


Ooh I can't wait to see what's coming next...because I'm still pretty sure you have no idea how bad your RG3/Foles mirage example was.

And how does that prepare a QB for the NFL? Here's the answer that's going to twist your mind. It absolutely doesn't. As evidenced by the countless QB's who have come from that offense (or similar) and struggled in all of the key post snap elements of playing the game.

Alright man, I've got a diaper to change, but it's sure to stink less than your logic in this thread.



your claim that there are no QBs who ran a spread offense in college and did not succeed in the NFL?

Drew Brees? Really?
Alex Smith? Ran Urban Myers Spread offense at Utah
Big Ben?
Aaron Rodgers?

and that is just a few...this is not a new debate regarding the transition of spread QBs into the NFL.....
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ May 24 2016, 08:33 AM) *
your claim that there are no QBs who ran a spread offense in college and did not succeed in the NFL?

Drew Brees? Really?
Alex Smith? Ran Urban Myers Spread offense at Utah
Big Ben?
Aaron Rodgers?

and that is just a few...this is not a new debate regarding the transition of spread QBs into the NFL.....

Air raid. Air raid. Air raid. I don't know how much more clear I can make that.

Never once have I said no QBs who ran a spread offense have succeeded in the NFL.
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