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D Rock
Arrogant Little Howie
mcnabbulous
Are you upset about the trade or the fact that here is more evidence that few people (and none that have any say) believe Bradford is a viable long term franchise QB option?
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 21 2016, 10:23 AM) *
Are you upset about the trade or the fact that here is more evidence that few people (and none that have any say) believe Bradford is a viable long term franchise QB option?


Do you dismiss the Domo article because he doesn't agree with you or because he uses several statistical points to do so?
I read it last night but my anger with the moves had dissipated and I just moved on but he does make a few valid points....all of them moot at this point.

I think those of us who hate the trade realize it is a huge price to pay for a guy who no one heard of 4 months ago....

Out of curiosity...and this is not a trick question because I do not know but could not think of one....can you name a trade like this that is a success story?....even for another position......I can't think of one. Maybe someone else will have a better memory.

It is weird going into a season where management want their QB to play a little better than ok but too good. The reason being that if he plays poorly he has no trade value and if he plays really well the fans storm the castle if they trade him....in that scenario they have a brutal situation......
mcnabbulous
I can't emphasize this enough. I'm lukewarm on the trade. I have major doubts about Wentz. With that said, I'm a huge believer in being aggressive to acquire a QB. And I clearly don't think Sam is a long term answer.

But I was happy last year when we made the move for Sam because I knew Foles wasn't the answer. And that didn't work out.

We'll survive either way.

As for examples of it working? Not sure. The Giants gave up a bit to acquire Eli if memory serves. I'm not sure how many comparable examples are out there to begin with. So either way it's likely a small sample size.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE
It is weird going into a season where management want their QB to play a little better than ok but too good. The reason being that if he plays poorly he has no trade value and if he plays really well the fans storm the castle if they trade him....in that scenario they have a brutal situation......

They likely aren't worried about the latter scenario
Phits
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Apr 21 2016, 10:34 AM) *
Do you dismiss the Domo article because he doesn't agree with you or because he uses several statistical points to do so?


Domo says:
QUOTE
My problem with this deal is the Eagles don't need to be doing it. They aren't one of the league's many quarterback-needy teams.

They already have a damn good one: a just-entering-his-prime Sam Bradford, who, at 28, is young enough to be their starting quarterback for the better part of the next decade.


Except there is no evidence that Bradford is a "damn good" QB. The evidence points to the opposite. He has been below average his entire career.

QUOTE
Out of curiosity...and this is not a trick question because I do not know but could not think of one....can you name a trade like this that is a success story?....even for another position......I can't think of one. Maybe someone else will have a better memory.

Here's 2
- Eli Manning for Philip Rivers + 2004 3rd + 2005 1st + 2005 5th
- Elway for Mark Hermann + Chris Hinton + 1st round pick in the 1984 draft

QUOTE
It is weird going into a season where management want their QB to play a little better than ok but too good. The reason being that if he plays poorly he has no trade value and if he plays really well the fans storm the castle if they trade him....in that scenario they have a brutal situation......

If Bradford plays well, it will simply increase his trade value. He would have to put up 2013 Nick Foles type stats and the Eagles would have to go deep into the postseason to keep him around.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Phits @ Apr 21 2016, 10:59 AM) *
Domo says:


Except there is no evidence that Bradford is a "damn good" QB. The evidence points to the opposite. He has been below average his entire career.


Here's 2
- Eli Manning for Philip Rivers + 2004 3rd + 2005 1st + 2005 5th
- Elway for Mark Hermann + Chris Hinton + 1st round pick in the 1984 draft


If Bradford plays well, it will simply increase his trade value. He would have to put up 2013 Nick Foles type stats and the Eagles would have to go deep into the postseason to keep him around.


lol...I like how you left out his statistical defense...here...let me help you...

A guy who was one of the best quarterbacks in the league the second half of last season. A guy who set single-season franchise records for completions (346) and completion rate (65 percent) despite a league-high 50 drops by his receivers.
or

The big difference, though, is Bradford wasn’t a disappointment. He came back from a second ACL tear and was one of the best quarterbacks in the league over the last nine weeks of a disappointing 7-9 season.

Had the league’s eighth best passer rating (97.4) and the seventh best third-down passer rating (100.7) over that period.

He set single-season franchise record for completions (346) and completion percentage (65.0) despite a league-high 50 drops by his receivers.



and I apologize...I confused his 2 articles as the same one....here is the first one..

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/sports/...-The-Trade.html

Thanks for the Manning article....though that situation is a bit different in that they swapped drafted Qbs and Manning forced the trade....ditto for Elway,,,,and the return for Elway was Hinton....and a pick (mark hermann was nothing exciting)
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 21 2016, 10:43 AM) *
I can't emphasize this enough. I'm lukewarm on the trade. I have major doubts about Wentz. With that said, I'm a huge believer in being aggressive to acquire a QB. And I clearly don't think Sam is a long term answer.

But I was happy last year when we made the move for Sam because I knew Foles wasn't the answer. And that didn't work out.

We'll survive either way.

As for examples of it working? Not sure. The Giants gave up a bit to acquire Eli if memory serves. I'm not sure how many comparable examples are out there to begin with. So either way it's likely a small sample size.



and yes...I apologize....I know you are not a big fan of the trade.....I was just really pissed at the stupidity of the trade...

Guys like Manning and Luck were virtual no brainers coming out of college......neither of these guys are even close...
Phits
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Apr 21 2016, 11:28 AM) *
A guy who was one of the best quarterbacks in the league the second half of last season. A guy who set single-season franchise records for completions (346) and completion rate (65 percent) despite a league-high 50 drops by his receivers.

PFF has dropped passes at 42 out of 532.

QUOTE
The big difference, though, is Bradford wasn’t a disappointment. He came back from a second ACL tear and was one of the best quarterbacks in the league over the last nine weeks of a disappointing 7-9 season.

Had the league’s eighth best passer rating (97.4) and the seventh best third-down passer rating (100.7) over that period.

He set single-season franchise record for completions (346) and completion percentage (65.0) despite a league-high 50 drops by his receivers.

Nick Foles' looked great over a 10 game stretch and you know what? It doesn't mean squat, especially when compared to the rest of his career. Bradford's "amazing" "career defining" 7 game stretch everybody keeps harping on was just 7 games. That amounts to half of a "Bradford" regular season (remember he missed 2 complete games, and half of another).


mcnabbulous
Seven games where he threw 10 TDs. Which would equate to a whopping 22.8 over a 16 game stretch. Assuming Bradford could play a 16 game stretch.

Can people stop acting like this seven games was so impressive. It was full of empty numbers. Sure, he didn't throw many picks. That's good, but it wasn't an elite performance.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Phits @ Apr 21 2016, 12:10 PM) *
PFF has dropped passes at 42 out of 532.


Nick Foles' looked great over a 10 game stretch and you know what? It doesn't mean squat, especially when compared to the rest of his career. Bradford's "amazing" "career defining" 7 game stretch everybody keeps harping on was just 7 games. That amounts to half of a "Bradford" regular season (remember he missed 2 complete games, and half of another).


You know the difference between Foles and Bradford......Pro Bowl WRs.....see how that works.....you can't dismiss the supporting talent...you just can't.

And it is not just 7 games....he was Rookie of the year as well....

He played for a dysfunctional organization but some feel that he should have risen above that......because that happens often.....lol

Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 21 2016, 12:14 PM) *
Seven games where he threw 10 TDs. Which would equate to a whopping 22.8 over a 16 game stretch. Assuming Bradford could play a 16 game stretch.

Can people stop acting like this seven games was so impressive. It was full of empty numbers. Sure, he didn't throw many picks. That's good, but it wasn't an elite performance.



Ummm..Mr. Injury...how many games did Wentz play last year?....and why?.....
Zero
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Apr 21 2016, 11:28 AM) *
lol...I like how you left out his statistical defense...here...let me help you...

A guy who was one of the best quarterbacks in the league the second half of last season. A guy who set single-season franchise records for completions (346) and completion rate (65 percent) despite a league-high 50 drops by his receivers.
or

The big difference, though, is Bradford wasn’t a disappointment. He came back from a second ACL tear and was one of the best quarterbacks in the league over the last nine weeks of a disappointing 7-9 season.

Had the league’s eighth best passer rating (97.4) and the seventh best third-down passer rating (100.7) over that period.

He set single-season franchise record for completions (346) and completion percentage (65.0) despite a league-high 50 drops by his receivers.



and I apologize...I confused his 2 articles as the same one....here is the first one..

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/sports/...-The-Trade.html

Thanks for the Manning article....though that situation is a bit different in that they swapped drafted Qbs and Manning forced the trade....ditto for Elway,,,,and the return for Elway was Hinton....and a pick (mark hermann was nothing exciting)

Yes, but we all know what the great Sam Clemens said about stats. I was excited to see Bradford emerge and I still am. But, anyone who ignores his historical stats and his historical health issues is being intellectually dishonest and is also ignoring the risk of NOT making a move.
Zero
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Apr 21 2016, 11:28 AM) *
lol...I like how you left out his statistical defense...here...let me help you...

A guy who was one of the best quarterbacks in the league the second half of last season. A guy who set single-season franchise records for completions (346) and completion rate (65 percent) despite a league-high 50 drops by his receivers.
or

The big difference, though, is Bradford wasn’t a disappointment. He came back from a second ACL tear and was one of the best quarterbacks in the league over the last nine weeks of a disappointing 7-9 season.

Had the league’s eighth best passer rating (97.4) and the seventh best third-down passer rating (100.7) over that period.

He set single-season franchise record for completions (346) and completion percentage (65.0) despite a league-high 50 drops by his receivers.



and I apologize...I confused his 2 articles as the same one....here is the first one..

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/sports/...-The-Trade.html

Thanks for the Manning article....though that situation is a bit different in that they swapped drafted Qbs and Manning forced the trade....ditto for Elway,,,,and the return for Elway was Hinton....and a pick (mark hermann was nothing exciting)

Yes, but we all know what the great Sam Clemens said about stats. I was excited to see Bradford emerge and I still am. But, anyone who ignores his historical stats and his historical health issues is being intellectually dishonest and is also ignoring the risk of NOT making a move.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Apr 21 2016, 11:57 AM) *
Ummm..Mr. Injury...how many games did Wentz play last year?....and why?.....

Sam's injury history is the least important part of that post. The fact that his magical stretch was super unimpressive is the part you should be focused on.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Zero @ Apr 21 2016, 01:02 PM) *
Yes, but we all know what the great Sam Clemens said about stats. I was excited to see Bradford emerge and I still am. But, anyone who ignores his historical stats and his historical health issues is being intellectually dishonest and is also ignoring the risk of NOT making a move.


I look at Bradford's history and see him as a lesser gamble...

He WAS rookie of the year AND he was on track to have a great year when he tore his knee up the first time and that was with the demonstrated cast of crap the dysfunctional Rams provided him on offense. (something his haters love to ignore time and time again)
He had an ACL tear that was repaired incorrectly and led to his 2nd tear...that is unfortunate not a trend. He proved that by surviving an absolute beating in Kelly's offense.
He sat out nearly 2 years and some were surprised it took him a little time to acclimate to the speed of the game again.to ignore that is not just intellectual dishonesty, it is down right idiotic...obviously some folks have never been injured in sports or played the game.
The bottom line is that the 2nd half of the season he was leaps and bounds improved and a quality QB from the eye test. He maximized a weak cast of WRs.

I guess it comes down to which gamble to take.....I just think that he is the safer bet in comparison to the cost of getting Wentz. Remember....it is not just the picks but it is also 2 players.....
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Apr 21 2016, 12:12 PM) *
he was on track to have a great year when he tore his knee up the first time and that was with the demonstrated cast of crap the dysfunctional Rams provided him on offense. (something his haters love to ignore time and time again)

Look man, the "haters" aren't ignoring the crap he played with in St. Louis. Or no more than you're ignoring that the "great year" he was having was largely due to 9/1 TD/INT ratio accumulated against the likes of the 2-14 Texans, the 4-12 Jaguars, and the 4-12 Falcons.

He had 5 TD's and 3 INT's in the four games against good competition. Not great, not awful. Pretty much in line with the rest of his average career.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 21 2016, 01:20 PM) *
Look man, the "haters" aren't ignoring the crap he played with in St. Louis. Or no more than you're ignoring that the "great year" he was having was largely due to 9/1 TD/INT ratio accumulated against the likes of the 2-14 Texans, the 4-12 Jaguars, and the 4-12 Falcons.

He had 5 TD's and 3 INT's in the four games against good competition. Not great, not awful. Pretty much in line with the rest of his average career.



ahhh...so now we ignore any game against poor competition?.....So Luck must really suck playing against those same Terrible Texans AND Jax AND Tenn. that same year....for 6 games....please tell me what QB does not have the chance to pad his stats against weak opponents...is there some QB who can change the schedule to NOT play bad teams? I mean, did Foles ask for his 7 TDs against Washington to be discounted because they suck? Did Brady ask that his 6 TDs against the Dolphins in 2007 be disconted because the Dolphins were on their way to going 1-15? It is called playing your schedule and every QB has the same thing....

Of course I am glad you think doing ok with crap against 3 of the top 10 defenses in the league is acceptable and expected....very astute of you...
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Apr 21 2016, 12:57 PM) *
ahhh...so now we ignore any game against poor competition?.....So Luck must really suck playing against those same Terrible Texans AND Jax AND Tenn.

Who said anything about sucking? We don't have to ignore them, but we can acknowledge that they inflated his numbers.
QUOTE
that same year....for 6 games....please tell me what QB does not have the chance to pad his stats against weak opponents...is there some QB who can change the schedule to NOT play bad teams?

Sure, he can pad his stats against bad teams. But he has to show that he can get it done against good teams. He has yet to show that. Even in his "great year."

QUOTE
I mean, did Foles ask for his 7 TDs against Washington to be discounted because they suck?

They were against Oakland. But are you trying to make your point by pointing out Nick Foles' inflated stats against a shitty opponent? Because you're actually making mine.

QUOTE
Did Brady ask that his 6 TDs against the Dolphins in 2007 be disconted because the Dolphins were on their way to going 1-15? It is called playing your schedule and every QB has the same thing....

No, he doesn't have to discount them. But he can also point to the 5 TD's he threw against the 13-3 Cowboys or the 4 he threw against the Steelers. Or ya know, the rest of his career, which has been excellent.

QUOTE
Of course I am glad you think doing ok with crap against 3 of the top 10 defenses in the league is acceptable and expected....very astute of you...

I'm not satisfied with being okay against the best teams. I think we need more than that from our QB.
Eagle2720
The Falcons gave up a good amount to move up and grab Julio, I would say he's turned out pretty good so far.
Pila
QUOTE (Phits @ Apr 21 2016, 04:10 PM) *
PFF has dropped passes at 42 out of 532.


Nick Foles' looked great over a 10 game stretch and you know what? It doesn't mean squat, especially when compared to the rest of his career. Bradford's "amazing" "career defining" 7 game stretch everybody keeps harping on was just 7 games. That amounts to half of a "Bradford" regular season (remember he missed 2 complete games, and half of another).

Nick Foles did not look great. He registered well statistically. Yes. But that's not the same thing.
Pila
QUOTE (D Rock @ Apr 21 2016, 02:11 PM) *

The trade seems incredibly forced to me. But I believe Bradford is a real QB, so this is clearly where the line of separation between those who are congenial with the trade and those who see it as unnecessary.

The one guarantee we'll get here for sure is that who ever gets closer to the fortunes unfolding are not about to let the others forget about it. smile.gif
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Pila @ Apr 21 2016, 01:25 PM) *
But I believe Bradford is a real QB, so this is clearly where the line of separation between those who are congenial with the trade and those who see it as unnecessary.

This is about as simple as it gets. I'm in the other camp, so while I'm unsure of Wentz, I wasn't satisfied with the idea of Bradford being the answer.

I hope Bradford has a great year, we trade him for something valuable and then Wentz turns into a star. Ultimately, without a QB, almost everything else has to go perfectly to win a SB. I'd prefer not relying on that type of improbable chance.
Pila
If Bradford plays great, wouldn't it make more sense to extend him and deal Wentz? If Bradford removes doubts, why would the team exchange that back for doubt?
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Pila @ Apr 21 2016, 01:34 PM) *
If Bradford plays great, wouldn't it make more sense to extend him and deal Wentz? If Bradford removes doubts, why would the team exchange that back for doubt?

I guess it's conceivable, but I'm unfamiliar with that type of precedent. I guess hypothetically we could deal Wentz to a team that is in the market next year when it's likely to be a weak QB class. Not sure of the cap ramifications though.
Pila
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 21 2016, 06:37 PM) *
I guess it's conceivable, but I'm unfamiliar with that type of precedent. I guess hypothetically we could deal Wentz to a team that is in the market next year when it's likely to be a weak QB class. Not sure of the cap ramifications though.

If the goal here is to hit on a QB, on account of your proposal - Bradford has a great year - the prudent thing to do is hold on to the fortune of hitting on a QB rather than throw that away for a chance to return to uncertainty.

Of course, all things being equal - not being privy to practices, real action, etc. But if he has a great year without being privy to any of these things, surely it would not be a great move to send Bradford elsewhere, wouldn't you agree?
The Franchise
QUOTE (Phits @ Apr 21 2016, 12:10 PM) *
PFF has dropped passes at 42 out of 532.


And if anyone at PFF actually watched the games, they would realize that this is a very generous number.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Pila @ Apr 21 2016, 01:44 PM) *
If the goal here is to hit on a QB, on account of your proposal - Bradford has a great year - the prudent thing to do is hold on to the fortune of hitting on a QB rather than throw that away for a chance to return to uncertainty.

Of course, all things being equal - not being privy to practices, real action, etc. But if he has a great year without being privy to any of these things, surely it would not be a great move to send Bradford elsewhere, wouldn't you agree?

I would tend to agree. If he seems to have a "great" future ahead of him, it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to let that go. I don't anticipate it will be the case, and those other variables will be a factor, but you can never have too much talent at QB.

If we find ourselves in that position next offseason, we will be in very good shape.
Pila
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 21 2016, 06:47 PM) *
I would tend to agree. If he seems to have a "great" future ahead of him, it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to let that go. I don't anticipate it will be the case, and those other variables will be a factor, but you can never have too much talent at QB.

If we find ourselves in that position next offseason, we will be in very good shape.

At which point then those of us exasperated with the move deserve the right to a few free beers, no?

edit:

ps - although if dealing Wentz at that point gets the team a score of the lost picks back, all good. We'll call it a push.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Pila @ Apr 21 2016, 01:50 PM) *
At which point then those of us exasperated with the move deserve the right to a few free beers, no?

edit:

ps - although if dealing Wentz at that point gets the team a score of the lost picks back, all good. We'll call it a push.

If Bradford turns into a star, this move is worth questioning. The vast majority of evidence supports very few people in the NFL expecting that to happen.

But if he did, and we ultimately wanted to move on from Wentz, I would suspect we could get a pretty decent haul from a QB needy team in a weak draft class.
Pila
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 21 2016, 06:54 PM) *
If Bradford turns into a star, this move is worth questioning. The vast majority of evidence supports very few people in the NFL expecting that to happen.

But if he did, and we ultimately wanted to move on from Wentz, I would suspect we could get a pretty decent haul from a QB needy team in a weak draft class.

Either way - I'm pretty sure no one would mind buying a few rounds if either way this works to the team's good fortunes.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 21 2016, 02:54 PM) *
If Bradford turns into a star, this move is worth questioning. The vast majority of evidence supports very few people in the NFL expecting that to happen.

But if he did, and we ultimately wanted to move on from Wentz, I would suspect we could get a pretty decent haul from a QB needy team in a weak draft class.



I concede that few expect Bradford to turn into a star.....and there is a very good possibility that he will not be anything more than an average QB. My concern is that there have been a ton of guys who have been drafted highly who were not even that....the Leafs, the Russels...Sanchez, Couch, Akili Smith, David Carr, Vince Young, Leftowich...In the last 30 years there are 3 great QBs taken in the top 5.......the Mannings and Aikman......a bunch of "good" QBs and a lot of either below average or just plain terrible QBs....and all of them were studs in college with much better pedigrees. That is why I simply hate trading all the assets we have to take a flier on a guy with a very small sample size in college and what little there is comes from the B league and is not jaw dropping.

One of the real scary ones is that he makes a lot of throws that got caught in 1 AA that you can't make in the Pros...not to mention, for all those "Bradford is injury prone" folks, he missed over half of last season.....only his 2nd season as a starter.

Oh well...whats done is done....

Lets hope for the best
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Pila @ Apr 21 2016, 02:56 PM) *
Either way - I'm pretty sure no one would mind buying a few rounds if either way this works to the team's good fortunes.



Now I just have to figure a way to get Mikey to pay for this one as well.....lol
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Apr 21 2016, 02:17 PM) *
I concede that few expect Bradford to turn into a star.....and there is a very good possibility that he will not be anything more than an average QB. My concern is that there have been a ton of guys who have been drafted highly who were not even that....the Leafs, the Russels...Sanchez, Couch, Akili Smith, David Carr, Vince Young, Leftowich...In the last 30 years there are 3 great QBs taken in the top 5.......the Mannings and Aikman......a bunch of "good" QBs and a lot of either below average or just plain terrible QBs....and all of them were studs in college with much better pedigrees. That is why I simply hate trading all the assets we have to take a flier on a guy with a very small sample size in college and what little there is comes from the B league and is not jaw dropping.

One of the real scary ones is that he makes a lot of throws that got caught in 1 AA that you can't make in the Pros...not to mention, for all those "Bradford is injury prone" folks, he missed over half of last season.....only his 2nd season as a starter.

Oh well...whats done is done....

Lets hope for the best

Yeah, I definitely would like this trade a whole lot more if it was a QB that I was really excited about. My biggest concern is that he was playing for, by far, the best team in FBS. And his predecessor was arguably better than him. A guy that's playing in Canada right now.

I don't quite get how this guy has moved up the ranks the way he has. If you put him behind Hackenberg's OL, what would we be saying about him?

My feeling is that he has so many physical tools to work with, our QB heavy coaching staff feels like they can mold him. It's a big risk with big upside (and downside).

Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 21 2016, 02:04 PM) *
Who said anything about sucking? We don't have to ignore them, but we can acknowledge that they inflated his numbers.

Sure, he can pad his stats against bad teams. But he has to show that he can get it done against good teams. He has yet to show that. Even in his "great year."


They were against Oakland. But are you trying to make your point by pointing out Nick Foles' inflated stats against a shitty opponent? Because you're actually making mine.


His great year he had a damn good game against Arizona....the number 2 defense that year...I suppose that didn't count...and again...it is a lot different when you are throwing to Randy Moss and Wes Welker rather than Chris Givens and Tavon Austin....at least to any rational mind....

Now Brady is the best QB of all time but he has also had exceptional talent at either the WR or TE position every year....that helps a lot....

The bottom line is that you will never concede that one effects the other,,,,there have been plenty of QBs with good WRs who stink.....or are average......Bradford has never had that luxury....of even good WRs much less pro bowl WRs....

No one knows what he could do.....look at McNabb's numbers before TO....before Reid realized what WRs can do...
Eyrie
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Apr 21 2016, 08:30 PM) *
No one knows what he could do.....look at McNabb's numbers before TO....before Reid realized what WRs can do...

Thank you for reminding me of the Small Johnson days mad.gif
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Apr 21 2016, 02:30 PM) *
His great year he had a damn good game against Arizona....the number 2 defense that year...I suppose that didn't count...and again...it is a lot different when you are throwing to Randy Moss and Wes Welker rather than Chris Givens and Tavon Austin....at least to any rational mind....

Yeah, he had a nice game. Doing that once is good. Sam has never done anything to suggest he can consistently perform at a top level.

QUOTE
Now Brady is the best QB of all time but he has also had exceptional talent at either the WR or TE position every year....that helps a lot....

That's definitely an exaggeration. Brady has consistently elevated the talent around him and has regularly gotten more out of WRs than anyone else. The biggest criticism of Belichick as a GM has been his inability to find WR talent.

QUOTE
The bottom line is that you will never concede that one effects the other,,,,there have been plenty of QBs with good WRs who stink.....or are average......Bradford has never had that luxury....of even good WRs much less pro bowl WRs....

No one knows what he could do.....look at McNabb's numbers before TO....before Reid realized what WRs can do...

You're confusing me for someone else. I spent all of last offseason defending Bradford and making the case for him. Largely because of the talent (or lack thereof) he played with in St. Louis. Then I watched him for a season in Philly. And he simply didn't look like the guy I thought he was going to become when he played at Oklahoma.

Then I went back and watched some of his highlights from Oklahoma, and I saw a guy that was making one read throws to wide open receivers all day long.

I just don't think he has a lot of upside.

FWIW, here is what I was saying last year. My opinion has changed after watching him for a full season.
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ May 15 2015, 11:30 AM) *
One of the local bloggers has been reviewing some (maybe all of) Bradford's pro throws and posting vines of the good and bad. There is far more positive than negative in my opinion.

You can check them out here:
https://vine.co/u/931078328650186752

A few stray observations:
- The ball really jumps out of his hand
- His pocket presence is leaps and bounds beyond Foles (as if that should be a surprise to anyone)
- His receivers were the worst I've ever seen. Beyond simply not being able to ever create separation, they dropped an insane amount of passes.
- His OL was almost as bad
- He's going to crush it in Chip's O. I feel bad that I've considered his career a bust based on what he's been working with. He's really going to excel here.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 21 2016, 03:44 PM) *
That's definitely an exaggeration. Brady has consistently elevated the talent around him and has regularly gotten more out of WRs than anyone else. The biggest criticism of Belichick as a GM has been his inability to find WR talent.


I love Brady....I have said he is the best ever and I don't disagree that he can elevate his teammates....and I don't compare Bradford to Brady......but he has always had pro bowl talent to help him....He does not make Gronk better...he did not make Welker better...those guys have exceptional talent...Welker is small and lightning quick....he did not make Moss better..or Hernandez or Branch or Brown....although...Imagine if Brown or Branch could have stayed healthy in a given year...both guys would have multiple 1000 yd seasons if not for getting hurt all the time

and newsflash.....there is no big criticism of Belichick.....the best coach in the history of the game.....except using the Nabby scale...then I think the award goes to Norv Turner or some such.....still hard to figure it out...lol
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Apr 21 2016, 04:02 PM) *
I love Brady....I have said he is the best ever and I don't disagree that he can elevate his teammates....and I don't compare Bradford to Brady......but he has always had pro bowl talent to help him....He does not make Gronk better...he did not make Welker better...those guys have exceptional talent...Welker is small and lightning quick....he did not make Moss better..or Hernandez or Branch or Brown....although...Imagine if Brown or Branch could have stayed healthy in a given year...both guys would have multiple 1000 yd seasons if not for getting hurt all the time

We'll have to agree to disagree. Gronk and Moss are/were special talents, but the rest of those guys are definitely not. Take a look at Welker's career before and after Brady. Give me a break.

QUOTE
and newsflash.....there is no big criticism of Belichick

Oh okay...

Why do Patriots draft so poorly at DB, WR?

QUOTE
.....the best coach in the history of the game.....except using the Nabby scale...then I think the award goes to Norv Turner or some such.....still hard to figure it out...lol

Belichick is on the shortlist, but that has nothing to do with his inability to draft receivers. Which is what I mentioned.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 21 2016, 05:25 PM) *
We'll have to agree to disagree. Gronk and Moss are/were special talents, but the rest of those guys are definitely not. Take a look at Welker's career before and after Brady. Give me a break.


Oh okay...

Why do Patriots draft so poorly at DB, WR?


Belichick is on the shortlist, but that has nothing to do with his inability to draft receivers. Which is what I mentioned.



hahaha....you kill me...you do realize that in his first 3 years he had the most all purpose yards in NFL history except for Gale Sayers....I mean you knew that right?...how is that for a break?......he was an UDFA who became a stud...he was a return guy and a great one and then evolved into a WR in Miami...

It is also the reason the Pats traded for his rights and signed him to a rich 5 year contract (at the time)

And in Denver he was also a stud....who got hurt...he still had 73 grabs in 13 games and 10 TDs...real terrible....

Too damn funny....
mcnabbulous
Welker was a good player, I'm not denying that. He wasn't a special talent.

You act like he was playing with a bum in Denver. He was catching passes from 1a and 1b in his career.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 21 2016, 06:05 PM) *
Welker was a good player, I'm not denying that. He wasn't a special talent.

You act like he was playing with a bum in Denver. He was catching passes from 1a and 1b in his career.


and Joey Harrington in Miami.....lol

and yes....he is a special talent...it is why the Pats went to the extremes they did to sign/trade for him...(a 2nd and a 7th round pick by the way...)
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Apr 21 2016, 05:12 PM) *
and Joey Harrington in Miami.....lol

and yes....he is a special talent...it is why the Pats went to the extremes they did to sign/trade for him...(a 2nd and a 7th round pick by the way...)

A second round draft pick is the going rate for special talent?
nephillymike
They already have a damn good one: a just-entering-his-prime Sam Bradford, who, at 28, is young enough to be their starting quarterback for the better part of the next decade.
Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/eagles...8MXeg4yImpxJ.99

Domo is Delusional.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Apr 21 2016, 07:07 PM) *
They already have a damn good one: a just-entering-his-prime Sam Bradford, who, at 28, is young enough to be their starting quarterback for the better part of the next decade.
Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/eagles...8MXeg4yImpxJ.99

Domo is Delusional.

You would think he was a board member!
nephillymike
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 21 2016, 09:43 AM) *
I can't emphasize this enough. I'm lukewarm on the trade. I have major doubts about Wentz. With that said, I'm a huge believer in being aggressive to acquire a QB. And I clearly don't think Sam is a long term answer.

But I was happy last year when we made the move for Sam because I knew Foles wasn't the answer. And that didn't work out.

We'll survive either way.

As for examples of it working? Not sure. The Giants gave up a bit to acquire Eli if memory serves. I'm not sure how many comparable examples are out there to begin with. So either way it's likely a small sample size.


This, without the being happy about Bradford. I never wanted him and was furious we gave up the 2nd and cap space to get him.

That being said, I wish him well. He has a right to be pissed. If he can find his way to Denver that would be great for him and maybe a pick for us.
nephillymike
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 21 2016, 12:03 PM) *
Sam's injury history is the least important part of that post. The fact that his magical stretch was super unimpressive is the part you should be focused on.



From the get go, I had very little concern about Bradford's injuries.

I figured science would get him back.

My concern was all about his performance.
Zero
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Apr 21 2016, 08:12 PM) *
He has a right to be pissed.

He has a right to use the lack of confidence as motivation. Pissed? What has he done? If you have an employee who hasn't performed does he have the right to be pissed if you hire a young kid with tons of potential to try and take his job? I don't get it.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Pila @ Apr 21 2016, 01:56 PM) *
Either way - I'm pretty sure no one would mind buying a few rounds if either way this works to the team's good fortunes.



That's buying rounds is a sore subject with some these days. mad.gif
nephillymike
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Apr 21 2016, 02:17 PM) *
Now I just have to figure a way to get Mikey to pay for this one as well.....lol



This could effect my plan to get you slot slinging drunk into betting me how Sam will be top ten next year!!
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