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Reality Fan
And no...I didn't write it but he should pay me...

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/pattiso...draft-a-QB.html
Phits
Zero
Regardless or what Bugsy says or does, I agree. This is chess, make the other player think they know what you're doing but wonder if they're right.
nephillymike
Does a scouting department that:

-was torn apart in a very short time in the previous year
-had vacancies in key positions for much of that year
- for a team that fires a coach
-fires his loyal patrons in scouting
-reassigns a once banished GM to take over until the new personnel guy comes in
-spends resources in trying to find that replacement
- hires a new coach and GM
-has to make a quick decision on a marginal returning QB
-is thrust into a busy Free Agency period and trades to undo past sins
- and still has vacancies in key scouting positions today

does a team and its scouting department have all of the resources necessary to think and act with one clear mind?

Nope.

They didn't have time to think it through.

Zero
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Mar 30 2016, 09:04 PM) *
Nope.
Actually, not probable but possible.
nephillymike
BTW, RF, is this guy your cousin or something?

You got some serious man love of Murphy.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. biggrin.gif
nephillymike
I prefer the irrational...........

http://www.phillymag.com/birds247/2016/03/...k/#more-3090238

Apologies to Nabby for the Geno flashbacks. biggrin.gif
Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Mar 30 2016, 09:04 PM) *
Does a scouting department that:

-was torn apart in a very short time in the previous year
-had vacancies in key positions for much of that year
- for a team that fires a coach
-fires his loyal patrons in scouting
-reassigns a once banished GM to take over until the new personnel guy comes in
-spends resources in trying to find that replacement
- hires a new coach and GM
-has to make a quick decision on a marginal returning QB
-is thrust into a busy Free Agency period and trades to undo past sins
- and still has vacancies in key scouting positions today

does a team and its scouting department have all of the resources necessary to think and act with one clear mind?

Nope.

They didn't have time to think it through.


Considering they were thinking of making this move 2-3 months before they fired Kelly....yes...that is why Howie had his former scouting guys working for him...

You make it sound like they fired Kelly on the spur of the moment. Have their moves seemed like that of an out of control FO or a series of calculated moves.

If you find this offseason as out of control and frantic than nothing Roseman does will ever satify you and regardless of previous words you think this has been a bad offseason......either that or you have missed his former guys working in the shadows even though I pointed it out twice here.

Had they signed Bradford right away I might have said you have a leg to stand on....signing him was no rash decision.

Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Mar 30 2016, 09:15 PM) *
BTW, RF, is this guy your cousin or something?

You got some serious man love of Murphy.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. biggrin.gif



He was a Phillies beat guy and always loved his writing...he is a smart guy and does his research...I don't always agree with him but he is a great sportswriter.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Mar 30 2016, 09:29 PM) *
I prefer the irrational...........

http://www.phillymag.com/birds247/2016/03/...k/#more-3090238

Apologies to Nabby for the Geno flashbacks. biggrin.gif



Hey...I could be wrong....I admit that but the tea leaves are all reading the wrong way....

We will find out in a few weeks
nephillymike
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Mar 30 2016, 08:53 PM) *
Considering they were thinking of making this move 2-3 months before they fired Kelly....yes...that is why Howie had his former scouting guys working for him...

You make it sound like they fired Kelly on the spur of the moment. Have their moves seemed like that of an out of control FO or a series of calculated moves.

If you find this offseason as out of control and frantic than nothing Roseman does will ever satify you and regardless of previous words you think this has been a bad offseason......either that or you have missed his former guys working in the shadows even though I pointed it out twice here.

Had they signed Bradford right away I might have said you have a leg to stand on....signing him was no rash decision.


Frantic or rash, no, not at all. It was thought out for the time they had and the people they had.

But they didn't have enough people, nor even have THE people early enough to have their bases covered.

I think the real risk is this year in the mid, bottom and late/UDFA picks. Other teams have more people, who spent more time to cover their bases.

If one team had 20,000 hours in scouting for the year and the other has only 12,000 because of turnover and turmoil, it will show somewhere.
Zero
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Mar 30 2016, 10:03 PM) *
If one team had 20,000 hours in scouting for the year and the other has only 12,000 because of turnover and turmoil, it will show somewhere.

I'm not disagreeing with the odds here, only the absolute of "will." You're assumption is that quantity trumps quality. We know the Eagles' have fewer personnel, but we don't "know" they are inferior at what they do. I realize the probability is that they visited fewer campuses and talked to fewer coaches and that alone would put them at a disadvantage. But I assume most of the leg work had been done throughout 2015 and that the results of that work is proprietary and stayed with the team.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Zero @ Mar 31 2016, 05:09 AM) *
I'm not disagreeing with the odds here, only the absolute of "will." You're assumption is that quantity trumps quality. We know the Eagles' have fewer personnel, but we don't "know" they are inferior at what they do. I realize the probability is that they visited fewer campuses and talked to fewer coaches and that alone would put them at a disadvantage. But I assume most of the leg work had been done throughout 2015 and that the results of that work is proprietary and stayed with the team.



I forget where I heard it or who said it, maybe Caplan?, but a few weeks ago, someone detailed their scouting (pro and college) vacancies, firings, positions not filled from before, and hiring timeline of the new guys they got in place, both temps and permanent guys, since the upheaval last year and it was amazing.

We were a team with draft results that were middle of the road at best from late Andy through Chip's second year. Now, with all of the turmoil, its as close to "will be a problem" as can be.

Maybe I should just send them the NEPM draft compilation for this year!!
Zero
I'm blaming everything on Chip, starting with Michael Haddix.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Mar 30 2016, 10:03 PM) *
Frantic or rash, no, not at all. It was thought out for the time they had and the people they had.

But they didn't have enough people, nor even have THE people early enough to have their bases covered.

I think the real risk is this year in the mid, bottom and late/UDFA picks. Other teams have more people, who spent more time to cover their bases.

If one team had 20,000 hours in scouting for the year and the other has only 12,000 because of turnover and turmoil, it will show somewhere.


You could not be more wrong.....Howie was preparing for this for an entire year......his off the books covert scouting team likely doing the same.....and Zach Berman, another beat writer, pointed out that all the blather of them being short handed was just that. They had plenty of people but he did alos comment on the upheaval or the perception that there was no clear structure to the outside world.

But you avoid my comment on your eva;uation of Roseman.....with the tact you take you either think Roseman has had a terrible offseason and anything that works out is blind luck or you are ignoring the obvious that he was very prepared for this......

Off course you apparently have no clue what other teams have....for instance...the Eagles have 16 people on their xcouting department roster...the Giants have 14. The Cowboys have 16, the Patriots have 19, the Panthers have 14.

Note that the Eagles, besides there 16 listed guys have at least 2 for personnel guys working for/with Roseman and that is just who we know about.
Zero
Are you saying Roseman has a clandestine scouting staff?
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Zero @ Mar 31 2016, 08:39 AM) *
Are you saying Roseman has a clandestine scouting staff?



Damn right.....he has had 2 guys, his former Director of scouting and another personnel guy....I posted their names and titles here previously, working for him for an undisclosed period of time....and those are just the 2 we know about. Judging from the orderly execution of his off season plan it seems like they were in place and functioning long before Kelly got the boot.
Zero
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Mar 31 2016, 10:05 AM) *
Damn right.....he has had 2 guys, his former Director of scouting and another personnel guy....I posted their names and titles here previously, working for him for an undisclosed period of time....and those are just the 2 we know about. Judging from the orderly execution of his off season plan it seems like they were in place and functioning long before Kelly got the boot.

jumpclap.gif
Phits
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Mar 31 2016, 10:05 AM) *
Damn right.....he has had 2 guys, his former Director of scouting and another personnel guy....I posted their names and titles here previously, working for him for an undisclosed period of time....and those are just the 2 we know about. Judging from the orderly execution of his off season plan it seems like they were in place and functioning long before Kelly got the boot.

That's comical. So what you're saying is Howie had a covert scouting staff, even though he had no power over personnel? Was this with Lurie's knowledge/consent?

If any of this is true, the Eagles organization is a joke. It would mean that the executive staff was planning for Chip's downfall, less than a year after giving him power. That would also mean he was being undermined internally, which would then lend credibility to his claims of not being in control or making decisions regarding contracts etc..
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Phits @ Mar 31 2016, 10:37 AM) *
That's comical. So what you're saying is Howie had a covert scouting staff, even though he had no power over personnel? Was this with Lurie's knowledge/consent?

If any of this is true, the Eagles organization is a joke. It would mean that the executive staff was planning for Chip's downfall, less than a year after giving him power. That would also mean he was being undermined internally, which would then lend credibility to his claims of not being in control or making decisions regarding contracts etc..


If it is true? It is true....the only question is whether it extended beyond them and how long they have been on Howie's payroll.

http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2016/2/...ch-rick-mueller

It was Moesher, not Berman...my mistake. That being said these are 2 former prominent Eagles scouting guys on board with Howie....I can't imagine Lurie did not know about it. The only question is how long these guys were in place. Maybe it was only since the end of the season...we don't know but the Eagles never denied it and neither did either guy. The Eagles still have their 16 man scouting department and that is with them letting a few guys go. I have read so many comments about how short handed they are and it is obvious that those who make the comments have no clue how big the Eagles scouting department is vs. other teams in the league. Their issues are titular, not staffing.

Reality Fan
And another high rating for the Eagles "frantic and desperate and grossly undermanned" personnel department...

http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2016/3/...nsider-rankings

Woe is we......
Joegrane
It is one thing to make solid moves in free agency; it is another to correctly evaluate college talent.

They've done a very nice job patching up what looked like a sinking ship a few months ago. In a few years we'll see how well they do in the draft.

At least by patching the holes, they don't need a great draft to keep the team afloat. They've given themselves an opportunity to pick BPA in one of several areas of semi-need, rather than do a Marcus Smith--who I think will have an okay year in their very good DE rotation.

QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Mar 31 2016, 10:50 AM) *
And another high rating for the Eagles "frantic and desperate and grossly undermanned" personnel department...

http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2016/3/...nsider-rankings

Woe is we......

Reality Fan
QUOTE (Joegrane @ Mar 31 2016, 02:29 PM) *
It is one thing to make solid moves in free agency; it is another to correctly evaluate college talent.

They've done a very nice job patching up what looked like a sinking ship a few months ago. In a few years we'll see how well they do in the draft.

At least by patching the holes, they don't need a great draft to keep the team afloat. They've given themselves an opportunity to pick BPA in one of several areas of semi-need, rather than do a Marcus Smith--who I think will have an okay year in their very good DE rotation.


Ok...we have disproved the "they are shorthanded in the scouting department" theorem or else proven that plenty of other teams are equally shorthanded...one of the 2.

It is always a challenge to draft well....for any team butthe critique offered in this thread that I responded to was one of the Eagles being A) shorthanded in the scouting department - wrong cool.gif frantic and desperate in the personnel moves - wrong and C) The man hours the Eagles have spent were significantly less than other teams wrong

Whether they have a good draft or not...it will not be for lack of bodies giving input.
Zero
QUOTE (Phits @ Mar 31 2016, 10:37 AM) *
If any of this is true, the Eagles organization is a joke. It would mean that the executive staff was planning for Chip's downfall, less than a year after giving him power. That would also mean he was being undermined internally, which would then lend credibility to his claims of not being in control or making decisions regarding contracts etc..

Correct me if my memory flatuates, but didn't Lurie tell us that he gave Chip total power to determine if he was capable of doing what he claimed he could do with personnel? If so, I wouldn't think it would be a joke if the owner were to have approved a safety net with scouts loyal to Howie.

At the time I read that, I had the feeling that the owner could have been more decisive knowing that Kelly had only two years of NFL experience. He should have emulated Nancy Reagan and "just said no!" He should also have either sided with his boy Howie or hired a damn GM.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Mar 31 2016, 09:46 AM) *
If it is true? It is true....the only question is whether it extended beyond them and how long they have been on Howie's payroll.

http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2016/2/...ch-rick-mueller

It was Moesher, not Berman...my mistake. That being said these are 2 former prominent Eagles scouting guys on board with Howie....I can't imagine Lurie did not know about it. The only question is how long these guys were in place. Maybe it was only since the end of the season...we don't know but the Eagles never denied it and neither did either guy. The Eagles still have their 16 man scouting department and that is with them letting a few guys go. I have read so many comments about how short handed they are and it is obvious that those who make the comments have no clue how big the Eagles scouting department is vs. other teams in the league. Their issues are titular, not staffing.



But the guy who is the source for the article, Moesher, tells us that these guys came on board, the assumption by him and others reading it, is that it was after Kelly's firing, and the guy who is the source of the information, says that HE is concerned about draft prep. Yet you take this to somehow mean that they were around for most of last year on the down low, and we're find.

That's quite a stretch there RF! If it was early on that these guys were on board, I'd think they would have found out about it and Moesher would be less concerned.

Watch out for that shooter on the grassy knoll !!
nephillymike
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Mar 31 2016, 10:50 AM) *
And another high rating for the Eagles "frantic and desperate and grossly undermanned" personnel department...

http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2016/3/...nsider-rankings

Woe is we......



Click on the link at the story on the bottom of that page

http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2016/1/...t-favre-packers

Super Bowl Baybee!!!

duel.gif
nephillymike
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Mar 31 2016, 02:02 PM) *
Ok...we have disproved the "they are shorthanded in the scouting department" theorem or else proven that plenty of other teams are equally shorthanded...one of the 2.

It is always a challenge to draft well....for any team butthe critique offered in this thread that I responded to was one of the Eagles being A) shorthanded in the scouting department - wrong cool.gif frantic and desperate in the personnel moves - wrong and C) The man hours the Eagles have spent were significantly less than other teams wrong

Whether they have a good draft or not...it will not be for lack of bodies giving input.


The guys doing the work last year are not here any longer.

The guys we hired new, started in January.

That's not ideal by any stretch.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Mar 31 2016, 07:27 AM) *
You could not be more wrong.....Howie was preparing for this for an entire year......his off the books covert scouting team likely doing the same.....and Zach Berman, another beat writer, pointed out that all the blather of them being short handed was just that. They had plenty of people but he did alos comment on the upheaval or the perception that there was no clear structure to the outside world.

But you avoid my comment on your eva;uation of Roseman.....with the tact you take you either think Roseman has had a terrible offseason and anything that works out is blind luck or you are ignoring the obvious that he was very prepared for this......

Off course you apparently have no clue what other teams have....for instance...the Eagles have 16 people on their xcouting department roster...the Giants have 14. The Cowboys have 16, the Patriots have 19, the Panthers have 14.

Note that the Eagles, besides there 16 listed guys have at least 2 for personnel guys working for/with Roseman and that is just who we know about.


What was you comment on Roseman that I missed? Sorry, repeat the comment and I'll respond.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Mar 31 2016, 07:54 PM) *
The guys doing the work last year are not here any longer.

The guys we hired new, started in January.

That's not ideal by any stretch.


Mikey...you have no clue....the lion share of those 16 WERE here last year...
2015 2016
Joe Pannunzio, Director of Personnel Operations HERE
Louis Clark, Senior Director of Pro Personnel HERE
Dwayne Joseph, Director of Pro Scouting HERE
Chris Shea, Director of Scouting Administration/Strategic Management HERE
Tom Donahoe, Senior Football Advisor HERE
Michael Davis, Personnel Executive HERE
Trey Brown, Assistant Director of College Scouting HERE
Matt Lindsey, College Scouting Coordinator GONE
Marty Barrett, Senior Scout HERE
Mike Bradway, Southwest Area Scout HERE
Alan Wolking, Southeast Area Scout HERE
Ryan Myers, Pro/College Scout HERE
David Hinson, Midwest Area Scout HERE
David Giuliani, Data Research Coordinator HERE
John Lovett, Pro Scout Left last year before the season
Ted Williams, Pro Scout HERE
Phil Bhaya, Scouting Assistant HERE
Tom Hayden, Scouting Assistant HERE
John Syty, Scouting Assistant HERE

http://www.philadelphiaeagles.com/news/art...d0-0a1438e609be

http://www.philadelphiaeagles.com/team/staff.html

So they got rid of Lindsey and Marynowitz, Brought back Patch and Mueller. So tell me again what I am missing when I say you are dead wrong?...and please supply some data other than "because I said so"... devil03.gif
Zero
Damn, son. You're getting pretty good at this posting links thing. jumpclap.gif
Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Mar 31 2016, 07:46 PM) *
But the guy who is the source for the article, Moesher, tells us that these guys came on board, the assumption by him and others reading it, is that it was after Kelly's firing, and the guy who is the source of the information, says that HE is concerned about draft prep. Yet you take this to somehow mean that they were around for most of last year on the down low, and we're find.

That's quite a stretch there RF! If it was early on that these guys were on board, I'd think they would have found out about it and Moesher would be less concerned.

Watch out for that shooter on the grassy knoll !!


First....I don't know how long they have been there and never said it was "all of last year"...that is a possibility but it would not surprise me that they were working for Howie before Chip got the boot.and Moesher does not say when they were brought on because he does not know.....the fact that they are working in the shadows is suspicious as to the time frame of their hire.(and no one even knew they were involved until Moesher mentioned it)

Second, what is more of a stretch....that or you crying about all the new scouts when you had no clue and , in fact, almost the entire scouting department is intact? Worry less about conspiracy theories (because, you know, Chip DID get fired) and more about dig up info about decimated scouting departments that, you know, didn't get decimated.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Zero @ Mar 31 2016, 09:08 PM) *
Damn, son. You're getting pretty good at this posting links thing. jumpclap.gif



Thank you sensei...lol
nephillymike
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Mar 31 2016, 07:45 PM) *
Mikey...you have no clue....the lion share of those 16 WERE here last year...
2015 2016
Joe Pannunzio, Director of Personnel Operations HERE
Louis Clark, Senior Director of Pro Personnel HERE
Dwayne Joseph, Director of Pro Scouting HERE
Chris Shea, Director of Scouting Administration/Strategic Management HERE
Tom Donahoe, Senior Football Advisor HERE
Michael Davis, Personnel Executive HERE
Trey Brown, Assistant Director of College Scouting HERE
Matt Lindsey, College Scouting Coordinator GONE
Marty Barrett, Senior Scout HERE
Mike Bradway, Southwest Area Scout HERE
Alan Wolking, Southeast Area Scout HERE
Ryan Myers, Pro/College Scout HERE
David Hinson, Midwest Area Scout HERE
David Giuliani, Data Research Coordinator HERE
John Lovett, Pro Scout Left last year before the season
Ted Williams, Pro Scout HERE
Phil Bhaya, Scouting Assistant HERE
Tom Hayden, Scouting Assistant HERE
John Syty, Scouting Assistant HERE

http://www.philadelphiaeagles.com/news/art...d0-0a1438e609be

http://www.philadelphiaeagles.com/team/staff.html

So they got rid of Lindsey and Marynowitz, Brought back Patch and Mueller. So tell me again what I am missing when I say you are dead wrong?...and please supply some data other than "because I said so"... devil03.gif



Not ideal to have no scouting college director, but if it is as you show, than it's not as big of deal as advertised. However, Caplan is normally on top of these things, and he rambled off a bunch of positions open with a big conern, but I don't remember the details, so I have nothing to debate with. I'd like to know how Moesher was totally off base in his concerns when he covers the people on a daily basis. Two guys in the know who apparently have no clue.

Good research.

BTW, interesting to see the employees list. True story, I spoke with one of the people twice in the last few days at work and was not aware how high up on the pecking order they were. Same with the other person I deal with.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Mar 31 2016, 09:14 PM) *
Not ideal to have no scouting college director, but if it is as you show, than it's not as big of deal as advertised. However, Caplan is normally on top of these things, and he rambled off a bunch of positions open with a big conern, but I don't remember the details, so I have nothing to debate with. I'd like to know how Moesher was totally off base in his concerns when he covers the people on a daily basis. Two guys in the know who apparently have no clue.

Good research.

BTW, interesting to see the employees list. True story, I spoke with one of the people twice in the last few days at work and was not aware how high up on the pecking order they were. Same with the other person I deal with.



Full disclosure....I thought there was more shakeup until I researched it....the media narrative by Caplan and a few others appears to be a "we hate Howie" agenda.....guys like Frank (the fat drunk) and most others have backed off of Howie...

I was probably just as surprised as you.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Mar 31 2016, 08:21 PM) *
Full disclosure....I thought there was more shakeup until I researched it....the media narrative by Caplan and a few others appears to be a "we hate Howie" agenda.....guys like Frank (the fat drunk) and most others have backed off of Howie...

I was probably just as surprised as you.



I haven't heard Caplan bash Howie.

Just the opposite actually. He knows why people don't like Howie and it annoys me because he doesn't say why. He knows why and doesn't tell. He's been complimentary.

BTW, would it surprise you if Roob doesn't drink?
Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Mar 31 2016, 09:28 PM) *
I haven't heard Caplan bash Howie.

Just the opposite actually. He knows why people don't like Howie and it annoys me because he doesn't say why. He knows why and doesn't tell. He's been complimentary.

BTW, would it surprise you if Roob doesn't drink?


now...no...he looks like he is in the 12 step after killing the bottle for 30 years...
Zero
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Mar 31 2016, 09:14 PM) *
True story, I spoke with one of the people twice in the last few days at work and was not aware how high up on the pecking order they were. Same with the other person I deal with.

And no insider report? sad.gif
Zero
And this on Kelly and "his" scouts:
QUOTE
"Right before that draft, the scouts set the board," the person said Tuesday. "Then Chip got a hold of it and totally turned it around. Scouts had no say at all in that draft. Anybody that Chip didn't want, that player's card got removed from the board and thrown in the trash. Those guys were never even in the discussion.

"Almost immediately, you had a lot of scouts looking around and wondering, 'Why am I even working? Why the hell are we even here?' We put all of this work in, put the information in and Chip changed everything and took whoever he wanted to take."
Linc ...

What does it say that Howie took responsibility for drafting Smith? He's either being honest or playing Harry Truman but in either case the contrast between that and Chip's inability to accept any responsibility for anything that went wrong tells me the team is much better off without him and the 9ers could be in for some trouble with him.
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