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nephillymike
In listening to everyone opine about whether or not TO s/b a HOF, or if he should be first ballot HOF etc., it seems almlost 100% of the Philly people say yes and yes to 1st ballot.

While I agree he is a HOF, I don't have a problem with them making him wait.

He played two year here in his prime.

Year 1 he was an awesome HOF talent on display and worked his ass off to come back for the SB.

Year 2 he was the disruptive petulant child and locker room cancer that cost us a season.

You put those two years together, and he didn't make a HOF contribution to our team. We'd have been better served with another Pro Bowl caliber WR than him over that two year period.

His career in total is no doubt HOF.

But, he can wait a year. Just like we had to wait a year to partially recover from his bullshit.

Sorry. That 2005 was a terrible time.
Dreagon
I think he should be a Hall of Famer.

I just think there should b a five to ten year "douchebag" penalty before he is inducted.
The Franchise
It's hard to think of another clear-cut all-time great who may have to wait for the HoF simply for being a dipshit on the field. Hell, Ray Lewis won't have to wait at all and he covered up or committed a double homicide. As long as it's off the field, you're good. laugh.gif
Rick
QUOTE (The Franchise @ Feb 14 2016, 04:57 PM) *
It's hard to think of another clear-cut all-time great who may have to wait for the HoF simply for being a dipshit on the field. Hell, Ray Lewis won't have to wait at all and he covered up or committed a double homicide. As long as it's off the field, you're good. laugh.gif

Exactly. This BS about making someone wait is ridiculous.

And any Philly fan who complains about him is also ridiculous. Whether he was crazy or not, he is exactly what we--as Philly fans--want from our players...someone who cares about playing so much it hurts. Someone who will do whatever it takes on the field to win. TO was that guy.

Also, I'm friends with Lito Sheppard--remember him?--he has never had anything bad to say about him. In fact, he said he is one of the hardest-working guys he's every played with. Said he NEVER saw him drinking or anything like that when the guys were together.

I couldn't care less about his antics. I thought he was entertaining on the field before the old farts changed the rules about celebrating. I LOVED to watch him play and LOVED that he was in an Eagles' uniform. He did EVERYTHING he could to to try and win the SB for us as well. How anyone in Philly dislikes him is beyond me...
nephillymike
QUOTE (Rick @ Feb 14 2016, 05:24 PM) *
Exactly. This BS about making someone wait is ridiculous.

And any Philly fan who complains about him is also ridiculous. Whether he was crazy or not, he is exactly what we--as Philly fans--want from our players...someone who cares about playing so much it hurts. Someone who will do whatever it takes on the field to win. TO was that guy.

Also, I'm friends with Lito Sheppard--remember him?--he has never had anything bad to say about him. In fact, he said he is one of the hardest-working guys he's every played with. Said he NEVER saw him drinking or anything like that when the guys were together.

I couldn't care less about his antics. I thought he was entertaining on the field before the old farts changed the rules about celebrating. I LOVED to watch him play and LOVED that he was in an Eagles' uniform. He did EVERYTHING he could to to try and win the SB for us as well. How anyone in Philly dislikes him is beyond me...


You don't hold him at all responsible for 2005? Nobody ever questioned his work ethic. It is legendary. But his assholery cost us that year. Let him stew for a year!

How's Lito doing these days? Is he still local to Philly? How well do you know him?
Joegrane
I agree with you very much. Let him wait a year or two.

However, there were also lots of injuries the year after the SB

QUOTE (nephillymike @ Feb 14 2016, 04:16 PM) *
...
While I agree he is a HOF, I don't have a problem with them making him wait.
...
Year 1 he was an awesome HOF talent on display and worked his ass off to come back for the SB.

Year 2 he was the disruptive petulant child and locker room cancer that cost us a season.
..
But, he can wait a year. Just like we had to wait a year to partially recover from his bullshit.
...

Rick
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Feb 14 2016, 05:54 PM) *
You don't hold him at all responsible for 2005? Nobody ever questioned his work ethic. It is legendary. But his assholery cost us that year. Let him stew for a year!

How's Lito doing these days? Is he still local to Philly? How well do you know him?

Not a
Rick
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Feb 14 2016, 05:54 PM) *
You don't hold him at all responsible for 2005? Nobody ever questioned his work ethic. It is legendary. But his assholery cost us that year. Let him stew for a year!

How's Lito doing these days? Is he still local to Philly? How well do you know him?

Not at all. I didn't care about his off-field antics. That didn't cost us anything. The guy showed up on game day and played hard for four quarters. Much more than can be said about other people in the HOF.

Lito is back down here in Jacksonville--where he's from. He's doing very well. One of the nicest people you'll ever meet. His wife is also a sweetheart. Lito LOVES talking football. We asked him if he ever got tired of talking football, he just smiled and said, "No...not at all."

He always greets me with a smile, even after a tough Eagles game.

He's also going back to school to finish his degree so I don't see him quite as much. He's commuting to UF to finish.
Phits
QUOTE (Rick @ Feb 15 2016, 04:10 PM) *
Not at all. I didn't care about his off-field antics. That didn't cost us anything. The guy showed up on game day and played hard for four quarters.

His off field antics contributed to the circus of Terrell Owens. As a result it (negatively) impacted his on field relationships. He panned his team mates (don't forget the Hugh Douglas fight) was insubordinate to management (the TC shouting match with AR which prompted his suspension).

In the end it did cost us. Without his ego in check we lost out on one of the all time great WR's (he only played 22 games for us). He deserves to get in the HoF, but he can sit and wait a couple of years before getting admission.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Rick @ Feb 15 2016, 04:10 PM) *
Not at all. I didn't care about his off-field antics. That didn't cost us anything. The guy showed up on game day and played hard for four quarters. Much more than can be said about other people in the HOF.


How in the hell do you figure his off field antics didn't cost the Eagles anything? He completely polarized a locker room and destroyed a team from the inside out....he poisoned that locker room and it showed itself on the field. He worked hard because he is a workout warrior and loves to hit the weights...not because he had an unending love of team and competition.

Rick
Funny thing is I asked Lito about this specifically--the locker room--and he said the media blew that way out of proportion. There really was no problem like the media played it up to be.

I'll believe him before I'll believe any media.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Rick @ Feb 15 2016, 06:30 PM) *
Funny thing is I asked Lito about this specifically--the locker room--and he said the media blew that way out of proportion. There really was no problem like the media played it up to be.

I'll believe him before I'll believe any media.



The players and coach I've heard opine about it all said it was. That includes McNabb, Trotter, Westbrook, Douglas and Runyan, and by his actions Reid.

HOF talent, but let him wait another year or two.

Yep, they say Lito is a good guy. He had a rep of treating the common folk well.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Rick @ Feb 15 2016, 06:30 PM) *
Funny thing is I asked Lito about this specifically--the locker room--and he said the media blew that way out of proportion. There really was no problem like the media played it up to be.

I'll believe him before I'll believe any media.


Then apparently Hugh Douglas is a liar because he detailed his experience with TO in the locker room and Trot has spoken about it at great length as has Dawkins and the list goes on.....no need to ask the media about it....the players involved have talked about it a lot as has TO himself...
Rick
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Feb 15 2016, 07:04 PM) *
The players and coach I've heard opine about it all said it was. That includes McNabb, Trotter, Westbrook, Douglas and Runyan, and by his actions Reid.

HOF talent, but let him wait another year or two.

Yep, they say Lito is a good guy. He had a rep of treating the common folk well.

And why, exactly, should he be made to wait? He has the stats. Never did anything like what some other HOFers have done (i.e. things that would get him arrested). This business of, "making someone wait," is just stupid.

As I said, Lito ALWAYS has a kind word for everyone. Honestly, I didn't even recognize him at first until my buddy mentioned it (he knows I'm an Eagles' fan).

As far as TO in the locker room, as I mentioned, I've spoke with Lito about this (at great length actually) and other things like this (like McNabb in the locker room, his cardio, etc.). I can't speak for other guys but, as I mentioned, he said the media blew everything out of proportion. This isn't an interview that was chopped up and printed/aired on Sportscenter (for sound bytes), this was just two guys talking about what happened. I'll trust what he's telling me over what the press says.

People in Philly are definitely a fickle group when it comes to players. That we all know.
Zero
QUOTE (Rick @ Feb 16 2016, 06:32 AM) *
As I said, Lito ALWAYS has a kind word for everyone.

I'm not taking sides in this discussion, but this says a lot about the man (Lito) and not much about the effect TOO had on the team.
Phits
Next time you talk to Lito, ask him why he didn't want to transition to a safety role.

QUOTE (Rick @ Feb 16 2016, 06:32 AM) *
As far as TO in the locker room, as I mentioned, I've spoke with Lito about this (at great length actually) and other things like this (like McNabb in the locker room, his cardio, etc.). I can't speak for other guys but, as I mentioned, he said the media blew everything out of proportion. This isn't an interview that was chopped up and printed/aired on Sportscenter (for sound bytes), this was just two guys talking about what happened. I'll trust what he's telling me over what the press says.

What did the media blow out of proportion? The divide in the locker room? or that T.O. was a malcontent who acted like a petulant child? Owens has a history of throwing his teammates, particularly his QB's (remember Jeff Garcia?). Had he not been on his last legs in Dallas, you can rest assured that he would have exhausted his welcome there as well.
Rick
QUOTE (Phits @ Feb 16 2016, 10:24 AM) *
Next time you talk to Lito, ask him why he didn't want to transition to a safety role.


What did the media blow out of proportion? The divide in the locker room? or that T.O. was a malcontent who acted like a petulant child? Owens has a history of throwing his teammates, particularly his QB's (remember Jeff Garcia?). Had he not been on his last legs in Dallas, you can rest assured that he would have exhausted his welcome there as well.

I would assume he didn't want to become a safety because he liked being a CB.

They blew the whole idea that it was an actual problem out of proportion. Again, Philly fans can be a fickle lot. The guy did nothing but perform on the field and, because he acted a bit of a fool, people want to hate him. He should have been handled better by management from the start for sure but I don't have any animosity towards him. He almost won us a SB.
Phits
QUOTE (Rick @ Feb 16 2016, 10:27 AM) *
They blew the whole idea that it was an actual problem out of proportion. Again, Philly fans can be a fickle lot.

Being fickle isn't exclusive to Philly sports fans. Had Owens simply put his ego in check he could have retired in Philly as a God. Instead he is reviled because he helped end an era of dominance....and then he signed with a (hated) division rival.

QUOTE
He almost won us a SB.

He also set our franchise back five years. Reid spent the next 6 seasons trying to fit every cast off receiver into the Owens void.
Rick
QUOTE (Phits @ Feb 16 2016, 12:20 PM) *
Being fickle isn't exclusive to Philly sports fans. Had Owens simply put his ego in check he could have retired in Philly as a God. Instead he is reviled because he helped end an era of dominance....and then he signed with a (hated) division rival.


He also set our franchise back five years. Reid spent the next 6 seasons trying to fit every cast off receiver into the Owens void.

I wouldn't say he set the franchise back. They had no receivers BEFORE him and it was no different AFTER him. The Reid crew seemed to be horrible at finding receivers.
The Franchise
QUOTE (Rick @ Feb 16 2016, 01:34 PM) *
I wouldn't say he set the franchise back. They had no receivers BEFORE him and it was no different AFTER him. The Reid crew seemed to be horrible at finding receivers.


I would argue that our receiver situation was significantly better in the last half of the Reid era, probably because TO showed that fat dolt that having a great WR actually matters. Stallworth, Curtis, DJax, and Maclin were leaps and bounds better than Pinkston, Thrash, Small, Johnsons, and 'Na' Brown.

Of course, Reid's successor didn't care too much about retaining talent.....
Zero
QUOTE (Rick @ Feb 16 2016, 10:27 AM) *
They blew the whole idea that it was an actual problem out of proportion.

I recall hearing about near fisticuffs between TOO and Hugh and TOO calling out DMack on more than one occasion. I'm not saying it was ALL his fault, but it would have been hard for the press to blow it out of proportion from what we knew.
PhillySteaks
1st ballot HOFamer. .but since the media don't like him (he didn't kiss their ass like manning) he'll get in next year. .
Reality Fan
QUOTE (PhillySteaks @ Feb 16 2016, 07:42 PM) *
1st ballot HOFamer. .but since the media don't like him (he didn't kiss their ass like manning) he'll get in next year. .


Yep...it was the media...how fucking silly....was it the media in Dallas to? Or San Francisco? How many times does the guy need to pull the same act before these mindless idiots realize that it was their fucked up hero and not every team he played for...
PhillySteaks
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Feb 16 2016, 11:40 PM) *
Yep...it was the media...how fucking silly....was it the media in Dallas to? Or San Francisco? How many times does the guy need to pull the same act before these mindless idiots realize that it was their fucked up hero and not every team he played for...



So he's not a HOFamer?

HOF should be about stats, which he has..not the choir boy HOF

But continue to hate on this franchise's #1 receiver, who if he would have been paid we would have a ring

Mindless idiot lol
Joegrane
That statement is outrageous! It is as crazy as----TO!

TO will never be in the Eagles' Hall of Fame. H Carmichael, Mike Quick and Tommy McDonald (1960 championship team) were not only great Eagles, but excellent members of our community.

I'm not a TO hater. I admire what he did on the field for one year, especially the amazing comeback to be able to contribute at a high level in the SB. However *teams* win, not just egotistical, highly talented individuals.

If I had a vote there would be NO chance I would have voted for him in the first year of eligibility, maybe not even the second. He was that much of a cancer.

Sadly I assume the guy has a borderline mental illness. There is no sin in that. It happens to good people. Playing football can contribute to it as seen in the work by Dr D Amen, a pioneer in use of Spect brain scans in psychiatric care.
http://www.amenclinics.com/latest-news/dem...otball-players/

I wish him all the best.

QUOTE (PhillySteaks @ Feb 16 2016, 11:07 PM) *
... this franchise's #1 receiver...
PhillySteaks
QUOTE (Joegrane @ Feb 17 2016, 01:10 AM) *
That statement is outrageous! It is as crazy as----TO!

TO will never be in the Eagles' Hall of Fame. H Carmichael, Mike Quick and Tommy McDonald (1960 championship team) were not only great Eagles, but excellent members of our community.

I'm not a TO hater. I admire what he did on the field for one year, especially the amazing comeback to be able to contribute at a high level in the SB. However *teams* win, not just egotistical, highly talented individuals.

If I had a vote there would be NO chance I would have voted for him in the first year of eligibility, maybe not even the second. He was that much of a cancer.

Sadly I assume the guy has a borderline mental illness. There is no sin in that. It happens to good people. Playing football can contribute to it as seen in the work by Dr D Amen, a pioneer in use of Spect brain scans in psychiatric care.
http://www.amenclinics.com/latest-news/dem...otball-players/

I wish him all the best.


Again. .the HOF is about the best players. .not good guys

So you're a doctor now? LOL

Believe me..I'm sure TO wouldn't want to be in the Eagles HOF anyways, after the way he was treated here...

He'll get in next yr(going in as a niner), while mcnabbpologists will sing the blues. ..
Dreagon
QUOTE (Joegrane @ Feb 16 2016, 11:10 PM) *
If I had a vote there would be NO chance I would have voted for him in the first year of eligibility, maybe not even the second. He was that much of a cancer.


I think this is the part that gets overlooked too often. It's NOT just about stats. TO was amazing, and he helped his teams, but that was primarily when he was happy. Once he was no longer happy he then HURT his teams. He threw his QBs under the bus, he sulked and pouted when he wasn't constantly fed the ball...often when he wasn't even the target the QB SHOULD be throwing to on a given play...and he was a constant source of locker room drama that hurt his teams. That's part of the whole package of him as a player, and it can't be ignored for simple stats when it comes to something like the Hall of Fame. The whole picture matters...and him being a cancer is a major part of his picture.
nephillymike
For the Eagles fans, if you want to use stats and provincialize it, he played here two years; one great amazing year, and one cancer ridden locker room disturbance. Put the two together and we saw the best and worse of TO. Together, for us, those two years do not equal HOF #'s. Unless of course you believe that others made him act out in year 2........... rolleyes.gif

HOF career without a doubt.

However, for his two years here, fuck em, let him wait and stew a year or two.
Rick
So, like the idiots who vote on HOFers, nobody here has a good reason to NOT put him in other than, "I don't like him." Stupid. Yet, other guys--who actually did things to HURT people (drugs, involved in violent crimes, etc.) make it in easily. Yeah, that makes total sense...

And I love how people around here believe what they want to believe. On one hand, people will tear the press up and talk about them not knowing anything, then--when it suits their argument--the press couldn't have gotten it wrong! Even if an actual player who was ACTUALLY there when things were (supposedly so bad) is saying otherwise.

nephillymike
QUOTE (Rick @ Feb 17 2016, 06:10 AM) *
So, like the idiots who vote on HOFers, nobody here has a good reason to NOT put him in other than, "I don't like him." Stupid. Yet, other guys--who actually did things to HURT people (drugs, involved in violent crimes, etc.) make it in easily. Yeah, that makes total sense...

And I love how people around here believe what they want to believe. On one hand, people will tear the press up and talk about them not knowing anything, then--when it suits their argument--the press couldn't have gotten it wrong! Even if an actual player who was ACTUALLY there when things were (supposedly so bad) is saying otherwise.



I would count Douglas, Dawkins, McNabb, Westbrook, Runyan and Trotter as actual players who were actually there. We've heard plenty of what they said on the matter over the years as well as other players. Maybe your friend Lito disagrees and that's fine.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (PhillySteaks @ Feb 16 2016, 11:07 PM) *
So he's not a HOFamer?

HOF should be about stats, which he has..not the choir boy HOF

But continue to hate on this franchise's #1 receiver, who if he would have been paid we would have a ring

Mindless idiot lol



Yeah? Tell that to Pete Rose....

It is not just about stats...it is about the game.

No one is talking about whether he drank too much or whored around or beat women or did drugs.....it is directly about his impact on the teams he played on and at every stop he caused dissension and distractions and is/was not welcomed back.....ironically something that continued when he tried to make it in reality TV....he was even too screwed up to last there and that is saying something.

So while I may be an idiot I am hardly mindless.....if you think the HOF is not about the game as much as the players you may have that role rapped up.
Phits
QUOTE (Rick @ Feb 17 2016, 06:10 AM) *
So, like the idiots who vote on HOFers, nobody here has a good reason to NOT put him in other than, "I don't like him." Stupid. Yet, other guys--who actually did things to HURT people (drugs, involved in violent crimes, etc.) make it in easily.

Such as who?

QUOTE
And I love how people around here believe what they want to believe. On one hand, people will tear the press up and talk about them not knowing anything, then--when it suits their argument--the press couldn't have gotten it wrong! Even if an actual player who was ACTUALLY there when things were (supposedly so bad) is saying otherwise.

Did Lito happen to make any disparaging remarks about any of his former teammates?

Reality Fan
QUOTE (Rick @ Feb 17 2016, 06:10 AM) *
So, like the idiots who vote on HOFers, nobody here has a good reason to NOT put him in other than, "I don't like him." Stupid. Yet, other guys--who actually did things to HURT people (drugs, involved in violent crimes, etc.) make it in easily. Yeah, that makes total sense...

And I love how people around here believe what they want to believe. On one hand, people will tear the press up and talk about them not knowing anything, then--when it suits their argument--the press couldn't have gotten it wrong! Even if an actual player who was ACTUALLY there when things were (supposedly so bad) is saying otherwise.


Dude....are you not reading? The reasons people do not like him ARE the reasons why he was not a shoo in.....he caused poisoned and/or fractured locker rooms wherever he went and was booted from every team......in spite of being a great talent...how can you just overlook that? It is a team game and this guy was the epitome of a locker room cancer. That is the reason...not "I don't like him"....rather, "no team he ever played on liked him"

Now had he won a SB he might have had all forgiven, instead he fomented a fractured locker room on a team that had a great shot to help him win one.
Zero
I think the point is that a good person who rarely speaks badly of anyone says that TOO wasn't a problem. That Lito didn't diss the guy says more about Lito than it does TOO ... obviously.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Zero @ Feb 17 2016, 03:46 PM) *
I think the point is that a good person who rarely speaks badly of anyone says that TOO wasn't a problem. That Lito didn't diss the guy says more about Lito than it does TOO ... obviously.



True words by the Z man.
Rick
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Feb 17 2016, 08:59 AM) *
Yeah? Tell that to Pete Rose....

It is not just about stats...it is about the game.

No one is talking about whether he drank too much or whored around or beat women or did drugs.....it is directly about his impact on the teams he played on and at every stop he caused dissension and distractions and is/was not welcomed back.....ironically something that continued when he tried to make it in reality TV....he was even too screwed up to last there and that is saying something.

So while I may be an idiot I am hardly mindless.....if you think the HOF is not about the game as much as the players you may have that role rapped up.

Huh? Since when did HOF voting have anything to do with whether a player disrupted a team? Again, pick an HOFer who has been arrested for come violent crime. You don't think that disrupted the team?

I never said the HOF was only about numbers. In fact, I don't think it SHOULD be all about the numbers (unless those numbers are so incredibly-great as to overwhelm people).

Silly argument.
Rick
QUOTE (Phits @ Feb 17 2016, 09:58 AM) *
Such as who?

Michale Irvin did a few questionable things.

QUOTE (Phits @ Feb 17 2016, 09:58 AM) *
Did Lito happen to make any disparaging remarks about any of his former teammates?

Yes.
Rick
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Feb 17 2016, 01:47 PM) *
Dude....are you not reading? The reasons people do not like him ARE the reasons why he was not a shoo in.....he caused poisoned and/or fractured locker rooms wherever he went and was booted from every team......in spite of being a great talent...how can you just overlook that? It is a team game and this guy was the epitome of a locker room cancer. That is the reason...not "I don't like him"....rather, "no team he ever played on liked him"

Now had he won a SB he might have had all forgiven, instead he fomented a fractured locker room on a team that had a great shot to help him win one.

I am reading. Are YOU not reading? The guy was an incredible talent. If he deserves to get in then he deserves to get in first ballot. This business of, "punishing," someone is stupid. That's what I'm saying.

Now, if you're saying you don't believe he should be in the HOF, that's a different discussion entirely.

I guess you missed that part of the conversation....
Rick
QUOTE (Zero @ Feb 17 2016, 03:46 PM) *
I think the point is that a good person who rarely speaks badly of anyone says that TOO wasn't a problem. That Lito didn't diss the guy says more about Lito than it does TOO ... obviously.

No, the point is, someone who was there--that I spoke to in person, not reading in the media--said things that I believe.

And, to turn that around, some of the people who said things about TO have said other bad things about the guy. So you could use the same logic on them.

Either way, my original point is more about TO deserving to be in the HOF. If he deserves to be--something I believe--then it's stupid to, "punish," him because of how he acted. He either deserves to be in or not.
Phits
QUOTE (Rick @ Feb 18 2016, 07:16 AM) *
Michale Irvin did a few questionable things.

So there's precedence because he (Irvin) wasn't a first ballot HOF'er.


QUOTE (Rick @ Feb 18 2016, 07:20 AM) *
No, the point is, someone who was there--that I spoke to in person, not reading in the media--said things that I believe.

And, to turn that around, some of the people who said things about TO have said other bad things about the guy. So you could use the same logic on them.
.

I think you miss the point completely. Owens has a reputation as a bad teammate. The bad rep. has been validated by countless (former) teammates. Owens was suspended for conduct unbecoming and made a spectacle of himself (perhaps to sell a future reality show). That Lito suggests the Owens situation was overblown by the media doesn't hold water.

Is it possible that Lito didn't want to speak poorly of an individual that he likes as a person? Who/what has he said anything negative about?

QUOTE
Either way, my original point is more about TO deserving to be in the HOF. If he deserves to be--something I believe--then it's stupid to, "punish," him because of how he acted. He either deserves to be in or not

Nobody has suggested Owens shouldn't be a HOF'er. However, there is precedence for withholding membership....for a variety of reasons.
Rick
QUOTE (Phits @ Feb 18 2016, 08:23 AM) *
So there's precedence because he (Irvin) wasn't a first ballot HOF'er.

And I would argue that was stupid..if the reason was because of his runins with the law. Either you ARE a HOFer or you are NOT.


QUOTE (Phits @ Feb 18 2016, 08:23 AM) *
I think you miss the point completely. Owens has a reputation as a bad teammate. The bad rep. has been validated by countless (former) teammates. Owens was suspended for conduct unbecoming and made a spectacle of himself (perhaps to sell a future reality show). That Lito suggests the Owens situation was overblown by the media doesn't hold water.

Is it possible that Lito didn't want to speak poorly of an individual that he likes as a person? Who/what has he said anything negative about?


Nobody has suggested Owens shouldn't be a HOF'er. However, there is precedence for withholding membership....for a variety of reasons.

I'm not missing the point, I totally understand what you're saying. As I said before, I choose to believe someone I've spoke with in person over what the media puts out there. Call me crazy...

And I don't care if there is precedence, as I said, you either ARE a HOFer or you are NOT. Whether you are a good team mate or not should have no bearing on WHEN you get in. I can see someone making an argument that someone SHOULDN'T be in because of that but this business of, "punishing," someone for this kind of thing is just stupid.
Phits
QUOTE (Rick @ Feb 18 2016, 05:07 PM) *
Either you ARE a HOFer or you are NOT.

He will likely be a member of the HOF, some day. This year there was more deserving people based on their overall criteria and not just statistics.
QUOTE
To be elected, a finalist must receive at least 80 percent support from the Board, with at least four, but no more than eight, candidates being elected annually.

Marvin Harrison finally got in on his 3rd attempt. I would say he is more deserving than Owens this year. Of the eight candidates elected this year, who would you eliminate to accommodate Owens?

Reality Fan
QUOTE (Rick @ Feb 18 2016, 07:15 AM) *
Huh? Since when did HOF voting have anything to do with whether a player disrupted a team? Again, pick an HOFer who has been arrested for come violent crime. You don't think that disrupted the team?

I never said the HOF was only about numbers. In fact, I don't think it SHOULD be all about the numbers (unless those numbers are so incredibly-great as to overwhelm people).

Silly argument.


Hmmm...let's see....which hall of famer are we talking about? I did not realize that there were so many that were arrested of violent crimes when they played.....which ones are are you referencing in your point?

I am trying to be nice here, it is not easy but Mikey is wearing off on me so I will try this politely. If an athlete has issues off the field such as Ray Lewis I can understand your point because his actions hurt himself and did not necessarily impact his team...same goes for any player suspended for PEDs or drugs or domestic battery, etc... because those acts, while ranging from vile to questionable judgement (referencing them in no particular order), only hurt the team in as much as the palyer was absent and could not contribute. What TO did on each team he played on (not sure about the Bills) was to pit players against players and poison each and every locker room he stepped into, not just Philly. That is his issue and the reason he was not a first ballot HOF guy. What he did was terrible for each team he played on particularly in Philly and Dallas. That had a profound effect on the onfield product.

Wow....I did that I did that with no sarcasm...there is hope for me....lol
Rick
QUOTE (Phits @ Feb 18 2016, 05:29 PM) *
He will likely be a member of the HOF, some day. This year there was more deserving people based on their overall criteria and not just statistics.

Marvin Harrison finally got in on his 3rd attempt. I would say he is more deserving than Owens this year. Of the eight candidates elected this year, who would you eliminate to accommodate Owens?

I don't disagree that they are deserving of being in the HOF. I'm also not aware of a limit on the number of people who can be inducted at any given time. Not saying there ISN'T a limit just not aware of one.

If you deserve to be in the HOF, you deserve to be in.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Feb 18 2016, 06:37 PM) *
Hmmm...let's see....which hall of famer are we talking about? I did not realize that there were so many that were arrested of violent crimes when they played.....which ones are are you referencing in your point?

I am trying to be nice here, it is not easy but Mikey is wearing off on me so I will try this politely. If an athlete has issues off the field such as Ray Lewis I can understand your point because his actions hurt himself and did not necessarily impact his team...same goes for any player suspended for PEDs or drugs or domestic battery, etc... because those acts, while ranging from vile to questionable judgement (referencing them in no particular order), only hurt the team in as much as the palyer was absent and could not contribute. What TO did on each team he played on (not sure about the Bills) was to pit players against players and poison each and every locker room he stepped into, not just Philly. That is his issue and the reason he was not a first ballot HOF guy. What he did was terrible for each team he played on particularly in Philly and Dallas. That had a profound effect on the onfield product.

Wow....I did that I did that with no sarcasm...there is hope for me....lol


Wow. Who woulda thunk it?

Good post!
nephillymike
People forget how the football HOF works.

It's not if you are a legit HOF you get in.

The list gets wittled down from 18 to final 10. (TO didn't make it to the final 10).

Once at that point, they can only take eight max, including the senior finalists. (either 1 or 2 each year). So the max regular guys that could get in this year, since 2 of the 10 were seniors, was six regular guys. Also a contributor is also in the mix.

So if they thought five guys, two seniors and one contributor were more deserving, TO had to wait. They all need 80% of the vote after they wittle it down.

So even if the panel thought he was HOF worthy, if they didn't deem him more worthy than the other five regular guys, he has to wait.

It isn't like the baseball HOF.

R Diddy mentioned the process last weekend on WIP.

There are other clearer descriptions of the process but this should help:

http://www.profootballhof.com/heroes-of-th...-hall-of-famer/
Reality Fan
It is a frustrating process near and not so dear to me as I watched my friend be an 8 time finalist before finally making it into the HOF. Andre Reed was ranked 3rd in catches and 4th in yards when he retired and was squeaky clean and it took 8 years to get in.

So no...I don't boohoo for TO.
Rick
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Feb 18 2016, 08:11 PM) *
People forget how the football HOF works.

It's not if you are a legit HOF you get in.

The list gets wittled down from 18 to final 10. (TO didn't make it to the final 10).

Once at that point, they can only take eight max, including the senior finalists. (either 1 or 2 each year). So the max regular guys that could get in this year, since 2 of the 10 were seniors, was six regular guys. Also a contributor is also in the mix.

So if they thought five guys, two seniors and one contributor were more deserving, TO had to wait. They all need 80% of the vote after they wittle it down.

So even if the panel thought he was HOF worthy, if they didn't deem him more worthy than the other five regular guys, he has to wait.

It isn't like the baseball HOF.

R Diddy mentioned the process last weekend on WIP.

There are other clearer descriptions of the process but this should help:

http://www.profootballhof.com/heroes-of-th...-hall-of-famer/

Thanks for that explanation.
PhillySteaks
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Feb 17 2016, 09:59 AM) *
Yeah? Tell that to Pete Rose....

It is not just about stats...it is about the game.

No one is talking about whether he drank too much or whored around or beat women or did drugs.....it is directly about his impact on the teams he played on and at every stop he caused dissension and distractions and is/was not welcomed back.....ironically something that continued when he tried to make it in reality TV....he was even too screwed up to last there and that is saying something.

So while I may be an idiot I am hardly mindless.....if you think the HOF is not about the game as much as the players you may have that role rapped up.


Bad comparison to Rose....Rose gambled on baseball, the #1 thing you can't do..every clubhouse has that rule to remind players you just can't do it..

Anyways it doesn't matter. .TO will get in next yr, so who really cares. .
Reality Fan
QUOTE (PhillySteaks @ Feb 19 2016, 04:11 PM) *
Bad comparison to Rose....Rose gambled on baseball, the #1 thing you can't do..every clubhouse has that rule to remind players you just can't do it..

Anyways it doesn't matter. .TO will get in next yr, so who really cares. .


I don't discount his betting but he was/is arguably the best non pitcher in baseball history and he served his penance...and they still have kept him out......

And you ignore my comment on Andre Reed...it took him 8 times to get in.....

so, again, boohoo for TO
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