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nephillymike
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300000062...b-wentz-at-no-4

Not bad draft for the Birds.

Look at the first and two thirds!
mcnabbulous
I would love that draft, but no chance in hell Hack makes it to round 3. He's going no later than 22.
nephillymike
By the way, I heard some people opine about Hackenburg and there are more than a few knowledgeable people who say he is legit. None of them picked him as going in the first, but some echoed your sentiments.

We can pick him up in the 2nd...................................

wait, never mind!! sad.gif
mcnabbulous
Im telling ya, man. Getting a talent like him at #13 would prove itself to be a steal. 3 of the final 4 guys were taken #1 overall. Take a look at Carson Palmer's college numbers through his redshirt Junior season. Pro style guys tend to take longer to excel because they don't have the safety valve the runners have.

Hack has legit #1 pick talent and had O'Brien been there for the past two years, we would be talking about it. We haven't drafted #1 since Concrete Charlie. If we are going to get the type of guy, we need to be creative.

I hope we do the right thing and take the guy before anyone else beats us to it.
Reality Fan
Found this comparison funny..

Pro Comparison: Jay Cutler

A lot of positive and negative similarities here. Like Cutler, Hackenberg has a strong arm (not quite as strong), a big body that shows an ability to run, and a tendency to slice up defenses when heís in rhythm. However, also like Cutler heís coming in with bad mechanics, trouble handling pressure, and streaky accuracy and decision-making.

When listing his weaknesses they also mention this:
Tendency to make bad decisions, throwing into tight windows and being careless with the ball. Also holds the ball too much. Needs to learn to throw it away rather than keep taking hits or sacks.
Doesnít always show touch on his passes. Throws a lot of line drives, leading to tipped balls or interceptions.
Can get jittery when blitzed. Struggles to recognize where itís coming from and where to deliver the football.

mcnabbulous
Who's your source?
Zero
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Feb 1 2016, 07:14 AM) *

Most of the criticism seems like the kinds of things that can be corrected with coaching.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Zero @ Feb 1 2016, 08:00 AM) *
Most of the criticism seems like the kinds of things that can be corrected with coaching.

Bingo. His primary issue is footwork, and that's almost exclusively when working out of the shotgun on the single read passes.

This idea that he struggles against the blitz is hilarious. He's one of the few QBs in college football that has been making legit pre snap reads and corrections. Additionally, the vast majority of college guys are making single read throws. Hack was running a pro style offense as a true freshman who didn't even enroll early.

He's been failed the past two years by an overmatched line that was killed by the sanctions and an offensive system that tried to make him do those one read things that didn't play to his strengths.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Feb 1 2016, 10:09 AM) *
Bingo. His primary issue is footwork, and that's almost exclusively when working out of the shotgun on the single read passes.

This idea that he struggles against the blitz is hilarious. He's one of the few QBs in college football that has been making legit pre snap reads and corrections. Additionally, the vast majority of college guys are making single read throws. Hack was running a pro style offense as a true freshman who didn't even enroll early.

He's been failed the past two years by an overmatched line that was killed by the sanctions and an offensive system that tried to make him do those one read things that didn't play to his strengths.



I am curious....you keep raving about his pre snap reads and corrections yet that did not lead to a better performance...Now I can blame some of his issues to poor protection but you completely ignore the poor decision making. Even the Temple highlight film inadvertently pointed to the fact that Temple's exotic defensive scheme fooled him.

As I have said, maybe he becomes something good in the NFL but it is going to take a hell of a lot of work and coaching and then it is still a long shot. He has some highlight throws and a lot of poor ones. I also agree that his line and his scheme were huge problems for him but that may have damaged him more than you think.
The Franchise
Mock drafts before the Super Bowl?! Jeebus.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Feb 1 2016, 10:55 AM) *
I am curious....you keep raving about his pre snap reads and corrections yet that did not lead to a better performance...Now I can blame some of his issues to poor protection but you completely ignore the poor decision making.

He threw 6 picks this year at a 1.6% clip. It's not like he was just throwing the ball all over the field.

QUOTE
Even the Temple highlight film inadvertently pointed to the fact that Temple's exotic defensive scheme fooled him.

Yes, and he's still more advanced in that realm that 98% of the other guys that come out of college.

QUOTE
As I have said, maybe he becomes something good in the NFL but it is going to take a hell of a lot of work and coaching and then it is still a long shot. He has some highlight throws and a lot of poor ones. I also agree that his line and his scheme were huge problems for him but that may have damaged him more than you think.

I've seen a lot of guys that are damaged by poor line play. Hack definitely had some times where he saw ghost pressure, which is natural after what he went through, but his pocket presence is still extremely strong. I'm not worried about it.

What cracks me up about this board is that there is one QB that you guys would draft in the first round, with the lone exception being Andrew Luck. He is essentially the only prospect in the past decade that didn't have major warts.

People complain that Hack didn't have the production to justify it, but when a guy does (e.g. Geno) it's because he played in a "college scheme." Almost every guy plays in that type of offense these days. Those guys are almost never ready to play on day one because they've never had to do half the pre and post snap stuff that Hackenberg was doing as a freshman.

Hack, conversely, is one of the few guys that could step into an NFL offense on day one and not be overwhelmed by the complexities. His numbers through his junior year, while flawed, match up pretty nicely with guys like Matt Ryan, Carson Palmer, and other pro style guys.

You guys can wait around forever for your perfect QB. I'll take a guy like this at #13 all day, every day.
D Rock
And there it is....

Geno Smith's "production" was dismissed because it was the NCAA QB equivalent of a white whale. Years later, who was correct?

I don't know a thing about this Hack fella. But Lawlor (who I'll admit is a hack in my opinion) just posted a piece today about how Hack strikes him as a significant step down from Paxton Lynch. He offered as evidence film of how both Hack and Lynch faired against a good Temple defense.

Lynch played well, Hack did not.

I'm of the "keep Sam" mind set. None of these QBs excites me.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (D Rock @ Feb 1 2016, 02:03 PM) *
And there it is....

Geno Smith's "production" was dismissed because it was the NCAA QB equivalent of a white whale. Years later, who was correct?

My point in bringing up his college production was to point out that college production doesn't mean a whole lot these days. The numbers that guys are putting up have completely inflated expectations.

What's interesting is that Tom Brady's senior season included 16 TDs and 6 INTs. Hack's disaster of a junior year included the same.

QUOTE
I don't know a thing about this Hack fella. But Lawlor (who I'll admit is a hack in my opinion) just posted a piece today about how Hack strikes him as a significant step down from Paxton Lynch. He offered as evidence film of how both Hack and Lynch faired against a good Temple defense.

Lynch played well, Hack did not.

I'm of the "keep Sam" mind set. None of these QBs excites me.

You should have stuck with your first assessment.

"Lynch played well" to the tune of 156 yards on 34 pass attempts

"Hack did not" to the tune of 103 yards on 25 pass attempts.

The reality is that neither played well. Temple's defense was extremely solid this year. I can't say much about Memphis' team, because I don't know anything about them, but I know that Hack's offensive line was the worst I've ever seen in that game.

It was the first game of the season and their brand new LT (who was playing at Lackawanna Junior College the year before) got absolutely manhandled all game long. Unless Mike Vick was playing QB for PSU that day, whoever was under center would have been screwed.

Like I said, no QB will ever excite this crowd. You guys want a sure thing. It just doesn't happen that way. Well, maybe once a decade. But how often do we get the #1 pick those years?

D Rock
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Feb 1 2016, 10:57 PM) *
You should have stuck with your first assessment.

I never offered any "assessment." I merely referred to another's assessment. I'm pretty certain I said quite clearly that "I know nothing about this Hack fella."
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Feb 1 2016, 10:57 PM) *
no QB will ever excite this crowd. You guys want a sure thing.

On the contrary, I'm totally sold on Bradford.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (D Rock @ Feb 1 2016, 04:14 PM) *
I never offered any "assessment." I merely referred to another's assessment. I'm pretty certain I said quite clearly that "I know nothing about this Hack fella."

I meant of Tommy Lawlor
QUOTE
On the contrary, I'm totally sold on Bradford.

Oh. That makes one of us.
D Rock
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Feb 1 2016, 11:28 PM) *
Oh. That makes one of us.

Yeah yeah yeah.... I know. He's no Geno Smith.
Phits
QUOTE (D Rock @ Feb 1 2016, 06:05 PM) *
Yeah yeah yeah.... I know. He's no Geno Smith.

According to their career stats they are a lot closer than you probably thought. Had St. Louis not committed so much $$ to Bradford, they may have brought in Fitzpatrick to replace him long before he became an Eagle.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (D Rock @ Feb 1 2016, 05:05 PM) *
Yeah yeah yeah.... I know. He's no Geno Smith.

No, but sadly his career has been pretty damn similar to the guy you think is the most garbage QB of all time. So I'm not sure what that says about your analysis.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Feb 1 2016, 05:51 PM) *
According to their career stats they are a lot closer than you probably thought. Had St. Louis not committed so much $$ to Bradford, they may have brought in Fitzpatrick to replace him long before he became an Eagle.

It's gotta take some logistical gymnastics to want to bet the future on a guy who has a lower career win percentage than a guy you shouldn't think should be in the league.

Back to the main subject, Hack is going to be legit. Pederson and Reich could do some quality stuff with him.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Feb 1 2016, 12:41 PM) *
He threw 6 picks this year at a 1.6% clip. It's not like he was just throwing the ball all over the field.
You guys can wait around forever for your perfect QB. I'll take a guy like this at #13 all day, every day.


His poor decisions are not limited to picks....he threw a lot of balls into the stands and into the ground...his completion % was not so low because he was making the right reads..
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Feb 1 2016, 08:25 PM) *
His poor decisions are not limited to picks....he threw a lot of balls into the stands and into the ground...his completion % was not so low because he was making the right reads..

Throwing the ball away isn't a poor decision. His completion % regression had a lot to do with scheme and mechanics.

The fact that he performed better with NFL level coaching, receivers and offensive linemen is reassuring to me. Had O'Brien stayed, I have zero doubt he'd be in the conversation for the #1 pick.

When you combine his physical gifts, toughness and his leadership/maturity (highlighted by his willingness to stand by his commitment to PSU) all signs point to long term excellence.
Zero
One scout's opinion:
QUOTE
Paxton Lynch, 6-6 1/2, 245, Memphis: "I still think he's the best of the group. The Bowl game (a 31-10 loss to Auburn) bothers you, but he had some drops and he wasn't protected real well. I mean, he made that team. What did they win (Memphis was 9-4)? Take him away that's a two-win team. He has all the intangibles, size, athleticism, arm strength, poise.''

Carson Wentz, 6-6, 235, North Dakota State: "He showed some things at the Senior Bowl. He has a lot of confidence. He has a good arm. He was the best one there, for sure. He showed he can come back from injury. The obvious is can he make that jump? That's the great unknown. You hear he's going No. 2 (to Cleveland), that's a big jump. He won on his level, but the guy before him (at North Dakota St.) won 40 games, too.''

Jared Goff, 6-4, 210, California: "Some people like him, I'm not too fired up about him. He's got the stats, but look at his record. Watch him play against the good teams and see what he did. I'm just not sold. He's one of those numbers guys. It looks pretty, but I think he's going to disappoint. I just don't see it in him.''

Connor Cook, 6-4, 218, Michigan State: "Doesn't even belong on the list. Did you watch the Alabama game (in the BCS semifinal)? Michigan State's best win (against Ohio State), he didn't even play. What does that tell you? He's nothing more than a game manager.''

On some of the other quarterbacks who will go later:

Cardale Jones, 6-5, 250, Ohio State: "Somebody's going to take a shot on him, but I wouldn't.''

Christian Hackenberg, 6-4, 234, Penn State: "Terrible. Everybody wants to blame (James) Franklin (Penn State's coach). It's him. Go back and look at the freshman year everyone raves about; he really wasn't that good then, either.

And his sleeper:

Kevin Hogan, 6-4, 220, Stanford: "He's got a chance. He's real smart. He's tough. He shows poise. He's coming out of a pro-style offense. I like him.''
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Zero @ Feb 2 2016, 06:02 AM) *
One scout's opinion:

The idea that Hack's freshman year wasn't good is silly. In a vacuum, sure the numbers don't blow you away, but when compared to similar pro style guys (many of whom have gone #1 - for reference, take a look at Stafford's FR and SO years) his numbers hold up extremely well. When you consider some of the other things he was doing at the line, it really stands up.

But yes, he didn't throw for 40 TDs and run for another 8 like lots of guys do these days.

Lynch is an intriguing athlete, but you have to project based on never playing in a real offense, which is the problem you have with 95% of the guys that come out these days. I'm not entirely opposed to it, but it comes with significant risk.
Zero
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Feb 2 2016, 08:56 AM) *
The idea that Hack's freshman year wasn't good is silly. In a vacuum, sure the numbers don't blow you away, but when compared to similar pro style guys (many of whom have gone #1 - for reference, take a look at Stafford's FR and SO years) his numbers hold up extremely well. When you consider some of the other things he was doing at the line, it really stands up.

But yes, he didn't throw for 40 TDs and run for another 8 like lots of guys do these days.

Lynch is an intriguing athlete, but you have to project based on never playing in a real offense, which is the problem you have with 95% of the guys that come out these days. I'm not entirely opposed to it, but it comes with significant risk.
It looks like both Lynch and Wentz will be better served if they go to a team that won't rush them but bring them along slowly with solid coaching. Probably true for most any young QB.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Zero @ Feb 2 2016, 09:32 AM) *
It looks like both Lynch and Wentz will be better served if they go to a team that won't rush them but bring them along slowly with solid coaching. Probably true for most any young QB.

Yeah it's become a weird situation with young QBs. On one hand, they're throwing more than ever in college. On the other, they aren't required to do 90% of the stuff they need to do in the NFL to succeed.

It's basically like every guy is Andre Ware these days. Teams need to be patient and they need coaches who are able to teach the game. It's why having an offensive coach makes so much sense for most teams that don't have an established QB.

It makes Cam's development that much more impressive. Usually guys who play that few snaps in college have no chance in the NFL. He's truly a freak.

Hack doesn't have the athletic upside of a guy like Lynch, but he's much more suited to step into a pro offense. I have some concerns about his accuracy and don't think he'll ever be a guy that gets near 70%, but he can play and push the ball down the field much more than most guys.
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