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nephillymike
This is the play by play of the drive vs NE, down by 14 points to start the drive with 6:29 left.

The time to score the first 7 points was 5:16

When asked about it, they said they didn't want to give the ball back to Tom Brady!

But you needed to score TWICE, with TWO TD's to tie the game!!

What kind of idiocy is this? I could see if they were only down one score, but they were down TWO TD's!!

This is gross negligence in managing the clock. It's one thing to take too much time on a drive, but it's entirely another in not realizing the mechanics of needing two possessions and the time it takes to score two td's in those possessions.

If Pederson want to call the plays to learn on company time, I guess we'll have to unnecessarily take our uncalled for lumps. But he better have the foresight to let Reich call the plays when down late in halves and practice it enough for the team to be proficient at it. It will be a factor. A big frustratingly annoying factor a few times a year, and most certainly those games we really need.

Look at it another way. In the NFL, you have 40 seconds from stop of the previous play to snap the ball on the next. During this drive, here were the amount of seconds elapsed between plays on that drive:

29,8,31,5,25,9,25,10,29,TO-NE,30,27,33,2 Min Warn, Pen, 33, Pen, 4, TD, XP.

9 plays were more than 24 seconds.

I guess we should be happy that we didn't get a delay of game penalty. laugh.gif

I'm sure he knew that the recovery % for expected onside kick situations was 20%, right?

I'm sure he knew the average time it would take to score a TD even if they recovered it on their own 35 right?

Can anyone defend this? Is there anyone not concerned of this blatant flaw?
====================================================================
Kansas City Chiefs at 6:29
1-10-KC 20 (6:29) (Shotgun) A.Smith scrambles right end ran ob at KC 22 for 2 yards.
2-8-KC 22 (6:00) (Shotgun) A.Smith pass incomplete deep right to A.Wilson (M.Butler).
3-8-KC 22 (5:52) (Shotgun) A.Smith pass short left to C.Conley to KC 38 for 16 yards (J.Coleman). P21
1-10-KC 38 (5:21) (No Huddle, Shotgun) A.Smith pass incomplete deep right to A.Wilson.
2-10-KC 38 (5:16) (Shotgun) A.Smith pass short right to C.Conley ran ob at KC 40 for 2 yards.
3-8-KC 40 (4:51) (No Huddle, Shotgun) A.Smith pass incomplete short left to K.Davis.
4-8-KC 40 (4:42) (Shotgun) A.Smith pass short middle to J.Avant to NE 47 for 13 yards (L.Ryan). P22
1-10-NE 47 (4:17) (No Huddle, Shotgun) A.Smith scrambles left end pushed ob at NE 38 for 9 yards (D.Hightower).
2-1-NE 38 (4:07) (Shotgun) A.Smith pass short middle to C.West to NE 32 for 6 yards (R.Ninkovich). P23
1-10-NE 32 (3:38) (No Huddle, Shotgun) A.Smith scrambles left end ran ob at NE 26 for 6 yards.
Timeout #2 by NE at 03:30.
2-4-NE 26 (3:30) (Shotgun) A.Smith scrambles up the middle to NE 20 for 6 yards (J.Sheard). R24
1-10-NE 20 (3:00) (No Huddle, Shotgun) A.Smith pass short left to A.Wilson to NE 1 for 19 yards (M.Butler). P25
1-1-NE 1 (2:33) (No Huddle) C.West right guard to NE 2 for -1 yards (J.Sheard; D.Watson).
Two-Minute Warning
2-2-NE 2 (2:00) (Shotgun) PENALTY on KC-E.Fisher, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at NE 2 - No Play.
2-7-NE 7 (2:00) (Shotgun) A.Smith pass short right to J.Avant to NE 3 for 4 yards (L.Ryan).
3-3-NE 3 (1:27) (Shotgun) A.Smith pass incomplete short right to J.Avant.
PENALTY on NE-L.Ryan, Defensive Pass Interference, 2 yards, enforced at NE 3 - No Play. X26
1-1-NE 1 (1:22) (Shotgun) A.Smith pass incomplete short left to C.Conley.
2-1-NE 1 (1:18) (Shotgun) C.West right end for 1 yard, TOUCHDOWN. R27
C.Santos extra point is GOOD, Center-J.Winchester, Holder-D.Colquitt.
KC 20 NE 27, 16 plays, 80 yards, 1 penalty, 5:16 drive, 13:47 elapsed
Zero
Doug is an Andy acolyte. Andy is well known for always telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
huh.gif biggrin.gif laugh.gif

It's pretty clear to me that saying something as obviously idiotic as that, and not either smoothly or convincingly, is just another way of saying "next question."

So, the next question we have is what really happened? Alex? Method of selecting plays too time consuming? Play verbiage too complicated? Headset problems?
nephillymike
QUOTE (Zero @ Jan 23 2016, 09:59 AM) *
Doug is an Andy acolyte. Andy is well known for always telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
huh.gif biggrin.gif laugh.gif

It's pretty clear to me that saying something as obviously idiotic as that, and not either smoothly or convincingly, is just another way of saying "next question."

So, the next question we have is what really happened? Alex? Method of selecting plays too time consuming? Play verbiage too complicated? Headset problems?



I just think that Kelly's pace with audible capability is the way to go.

Visions of JJ Watt rendered useless down on one knee in exhaustion are too fresh to think otherwise.
mcnabbulous
I seriously don't know why people think this mattered. What Andy and Doug basically were saying was "we needed a miracle to win." Which was the case.

They weren't scoring two times in 7 minutes. Not with those receivers. Not with that quarterback. Not against that oppononent.

It wasn't about pace. That Chiefs team isn't built to come from behind. They needed to hold the Pats to 17 or less. They needed to stay within a score. When those things didn't happen, the game was over.

The fumble on the first drive of the second half is what really killed them. They were about to put another score on the board.
nephillymike
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 23 2016, 10:19 AM) *
I seriously don't know why people think this mattered. What Andy and Doug basically were saying was "we needed a miracle to win." Which was the case.

They weren't scoring two times in 7 minutes. Not with those receivers. Not with that quarterback. Not against that oppononent.

It wasn't about pace. That Chiefs team isn't built to come from behind. They needed to hold the Pats to 17 or less. They needed to stay within a score. When those things didn't happen, the game was over.

The fumble on the first drive of the second half is what really killed them. They were about to put another score on the board.



You don't think it mattered?

Wow!!

I know you are a big time Andy fan but really??

If being down by 14 with 6+ minutes left and all of your timeouts constitutes a miracle, with a excellent D, we have bigger problems than I imagine.
Zero
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 23 2016, 10:19 AM) *
I seriously don't know why people think this mattered. What Andy and Doug basically were saying was "we needed a miracle to win." Which was the case.

They weren't scoring two times in 7 minutes. Not with those receivers. Not with that quarterback. Not against that oppononent.

It wasn't about pace. That Chiefs team isn't built to come from behind. They needed to hold the Pats to 17 or less. They needed to stay within a score. When those things didn't happen, the game was over.

The fumble on the first drive of the second half is what really killed them. They were about to put another score on the board.

This almost sounds like you're saying the quit and that it is understandable.
Joegrane
I agree with you. I think it is impressive that they accomplished what they did after losing their star RB a couple of O Linemen and then having a hobbled Maclin. They didn't loose to a lesser opponent.

QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 23 2016, 10:19 AM) *
I seriously don't know why people think this mattered. What Andy and Doug basically were saying was "we needed a miracle to win." Which was the case.

They weren't scoring two times in 7 minutes. Not with those receivers. Not with that quarterback. Not against that oppononent.

It wasn't about pace. That Chiefs team isn't built to come from behind. They needed to hold the Pats to 17 or less. They needed to stay within a score. When those things didn't happen, the game was over.

The fumble on the first drive of the second half is what really killed them. They were about to put another score on the board.

mcnabbulous
I'm not saying they quit. I'm saying they knew the reality of the situation. They didn't have the horses to score quickly. So their hope was to score methodically, get an onsides kick, and score again. It was a proverbial Hail Mary.

It's not why they lost the game, which is the main point. The game was basically already over.
nephillymike
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 23 2016, 10:53 AM) *
I'm not saying they quit. I'm saying they knew the reality of the situation. They didn't have the horses to score quickly. So their hope was to score methodically, get an onsides kick, and score again. It was a proverbial Hail Mary.

It's not why they lost the game, which is the main point. The game was basically already over.


This must be a thing of beauty then:
4 5:40 1 10 PHI 21 Donovan McNabb pass complete to L.J. Smith for 4 yards (tackle by Harrison)
4 5:10 2 6 PHI 25 Donovan McNabb pass complete to Greg Lewis for 4 yards (tackle by Dexter Reid).
4 4:52 3 2 PHI 29 Donovan McNabb pass complete to Terrell Owens for 5 yards (tackle by Ted Johnson)
4 4:19 1 10 PHI 34 Donovan McNabb pass complete to Josh Parry for 2 yards (tackle by Roman Phifer)
4 3:45 2 8 PHI 36 Donovan McNabb pass incomplete intended for Freddie Mitchell
4 3:42 3 8 PHI 36 Donovan McNabb pass complete to Terrell Owens for 10 yards (tackle by Asante Samuel)
4 3:36 1 10 PHI 46 Donovan McNabb pass incomplete intended for Terrell Owens
4 3:28 2 10 PHI 46 Donovan McNabb up the middle for no gain (tackle by Tedy Bruschi)
4 2:55 3 10 PHI 46 Donovan McNabb pass complete to Freddie Mitchell for 11 yards (tackle by Tedy Bruschi)
4 2:20 1 10 NWE 43 Donovan McNabb pass incomplete intended for Brian Westbrook
4 2:14 2 10 NWE 43 Donovan McNabb pass complete to Brian Westbrook for 13 yards (tackle by Randall Gay)
4 2:00 1 10 NWE 30 Donovan McNabb pass incomplete intended for Terrell Owens (defended by Seymour)
4 1:55 2 10 NWE 30 Donovan McNabb pass complete to Greg Lewis for 30 yards, touchdown
4 1:55 David Akers kicks extra point good

Down by two scores, 14-24, 5:40 left and two timeouts. Time of plays:

30,18,33,34,3,6,8,33,35,6,14,5 5 plays over 30 seconds!!

Prompting Belecheat to ask his asst, "Is that score right, we are winning right?"

That's our Andy.

Seems like it will be our Doug.

I'd like to set the bar a tad higher, maybe have our HC be more capable than most HS coaches in the two minute offense.

Most games it doesn't matter. but for those four regular season games and maybe a playoff game or two, it will be brutal.
mcnabbulous
Do you have any idea how often teams down by two touchdowns with 6 minutes left come back to win? Or even easier, how often has it happened to Belichick's Patriots?

I suspect it is very rarely.

You're focused on the wrong things. That game wasn't about Andy or Doug's clock management. It was about Brady's brilliance. He took the Chiefs pass rush out of the game. He's the best. The Chiefs weren't beating him that day.
mcnabbulous
Here are some fun stats. By my unscientific calculations, Brady has lost 8 times in his career when his team scored 27 points.

They have only lost one of those games at home. 2015 vs. the Eagles.

Only one of those was playoff games. 2006 vs. Indy.

Last week's game wasn't about the last 6 minutes.
Zero
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 23 2016, 11:19 AM) *
Do you have any idea how often teams down by two touchdowns with 6 minutes left come back to win? Or even easier, how often has it happened to Belichick's Patriots?

I suspect it is very rarely.

You're focused on the wrong things. That game wasn't about Andy or Doug's clock management. It was about Brady's brilliance. He took the Chiefs pass rush out of the game. He's the best. The Chiefs weren't beating him that day.

Do you think that clock management has been an issue for Andy throughout his career?
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Zero @ Jan 23 2016, 10:39 AM) *
Do you think that clock management has been an issue for Andy throughout his career?

I guess it depends on what you mean by clock management. I agree that he usually has fewer timeouts for end of half management, but I also think that he doesn't value/use timeouts for that purpose.

I've never believed clock management was the reason we lost games, nor do I think it's the reason the Chiefs lost on Saturday.

Lots of stuff has to happen to be down two scores with 6 mins to play. Those are the important things. Last Saturday, the two things that most impacted the final score were Brady's brilliance and Kniles Davis' fumble.
nephillymike
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 23 2016, 11:19 AM) *
Do you have any idea how often teams down by two touchdowns with 6 minutes left come back to win? Or even easier, how often has it happened to Belichick's Patriots?

I suspect it is very rarely.

You're focused on the wrong things. That game wasn't about Andy or Doug's clock management. It was about Brady's brilliance. He took the Chiefs pass rush out of the game. He's the best. The Chiefs weren't beating him that day.


So what if it is a small % of the time.

Do you quit, take a knee?

Why onside kick, when only works 20% of the time when expected?

If you get the deficit to 7, with the ball and two minutes left, you have about a 10% chance to win from that point on. In order to do that, you need to score faster on the first TD. And that is to WIN the game, not just get it to overtime, which I think most watching that deficit would have been happy with. So it is higher than that just to go into OT.

http://archive.advancedfootballanalytics.c...robability.html

As far as the chances when you are down 14 pts and 6+ minutes left, my calculation has the probability roughly:

25% x 20% x 25% = 1.25% which is the % of drives ending in TD x the chance a non surprised on side kick works x the % of drives ending in a TD. Note that NE three and out % is 19.2% so that approximates the onside kick % so it works also.

As long as those odds seem, they are better odds than a 1-5 team making it to the 2nd round of the playoffs.

As Herm would say; "You play to win the game!"

That play calling and that of the NE SB is indicative of a problem. A problem that is now our problem, again!

Now maybe Doug, unlike Andy, knows his limitations and plans around it.

It's a concern.
mcnabbulous
They didn't quit. They scored a TD without 3 of their top 4 offensive players, against the best defensive mind in football.

That along is impressive. Your opinion is that they should have made it look easier.

Do you at least acknowledge that it isn't why they lost the game? Because it most certainly was not.
nephillymike
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 23 2016, 12:12 PM) *
They didn't quit. They scored a TD without 3 of their top 4 offensive players, against the best defensive mind in football.

That along is impressive. Your opinion is that they should have made it look easier.

Do you at least acknowledge that it isn't why they lost the game? Because it most certainly was not.



Oh it is absolutely NOT why they lost the game.

Had they lost by an INT, a fumble, a bad call or just plain ass whooping I would have way less worry than watching that display of negligent clock management, which is transferable here.

Someone needs to sit down with Doug and go through what happened and make it clear that that cannot happen here, before he brings that shit here. Put in the procedures now before it's too late in the process.
Eyrie
I'm just concerned that a rookie head coach wants to add to his learning curve by calling plays for the first time.

I can understand him contributing to the scheme during the week, but on game days he needs to focus on the bigger picture. If Pederson had 3-4 seasons of successful play calling behind him then it might work.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Jan 23 2016, 12:29 PM) *
I'm just concerned that a rookie head coach wants to add to his learning curve by calling plays for the first time.

I can understand him contributing to the scheme during the week, but on game days he needs to focus on the bigger picture. If Pederson had 3-4 seasons of successful play calling behind him then it might work.



Agree
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jan 23 2016, 11:20 AM) *
Oh it is absolutely NOT why they lost the game.

Had they lost by an INT, a fumble, a bad call or just plain ass whooping I would have way less worry than watching that display of negligent clock management, which is transferable here.

Someone needs to sit down with Doug and go through what happened and make it clear that that cannot happen here, before he brings that shit here. Put in the procedures now before it's too late in the process.

What about that offense makes you think they were capable of scoring at a faster pace? Jason Avant was the leading receiver.
nephillymike
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 23 2016, 12:36 PM) *
What about that offense makes you think they were capable of scoring at a faster pace? Jason Avant was the leading receiver.



Look at the amount of time between plays.

The time between plays has nothing to do with the talent.

The number of plays needed does, but not the time between the calls.

Maybe better talent scores in three less plays, however, there is NO excuse for averaging those times per play.

mcnabbulous
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jan 23 2016, 11:52 AM) *
Look at the amount of time between plays.

The time between plays has nothing to do with the talent.

The number of plays needed does, but not the time between the calls.

Maybe better talent scores in three less plays, however, there is NO excuse for averaging those times per play.

But that was Andy/Doug's point. They knew it was going to take a lot of plays. And for that reason, their strategy was to score, onsides kick, score. It was a long shot, but it's the only shot they felt like they had.

Giving the ball back to Brady wasn't an option for them, because he had been shredding them with short, quick release passes all game long.

I realize you don't like the math, but that's how they felt they needed to play it out. Like I said, it was a Hail Mary. The game was already, for all intents and purposes, over.

Even having Maclin potentially would have changed their strategy. They weren't that fortunate.
Zero
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 23 2016, 11:46 AM) *
I guess it depends on what you mean by clock management. I agree that he usually has fewer timeouts for end of half management, but I also think that he doesn't value/use timeouts for that purpose.

I've never believed clock management was the reason we lost games, nor do I think it's the reason the Chiefs lost on Saturday.

Lots of stuff has to happen to be down two scores with 6 mins to play. Those are the important things. Last Saturday, the two things that most impacted the final score were Brady's brilliance and Kniles Davis' fumble.

Here's where you lose me. They were down two scores and the odds were that they would give the ball back to Brady no matter what they did. It seems obvious to me that they had to score as quickly as they could, stop Brady and score again. That takes time and for whatever reason anyone gives, they wasted time.

It doesn't matter if they had to use a methodical approach, they needed to score twice so they needed to conserve as much time as possible. They were standing around and taking their time in the huddle. It was eerily the same thing we saw too often here with Andy, including in the Super Bowl. He's a methodical man which has much to do with why he has been so successful. I submit that it has much to do with why he's never won the Super Bowl too.
mcnabbulous
I think they were intending to onsides kick under any circumstances. 1, 2, or 3 minutes left.
nephillymike
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 23 2016, 01:02 PM) *
But that was Andy/Doug's point. They knew it was going to take a lot of plays. And for that reason, their strategy was to score, onsides kick, score. It was a long shot, but it's the only shot they felt like they had.

Giving the ball back to Brady wasn't an option for them, because he had been shredding them with short, quick release passes all game long.

I realize you don't like the math, but that's how they felt they needed to play it out. Like I said, it was a Hail Mary. The game was already, for all intents and purposes, over.

Even having Maclin potentially would have changed their strategy. They weren't that fortunate.



It doesn't matter they had to use a lot of plays. It's that they took so damn long to call those plays. And you know what? The fewer yards per play results in a quicker lineup which helps save the time between plays.

This is a no brainer. I don't see why you don't see this as an issue.

I can see if you say, his time mgt sucks but he's still a great coach, but not to acknowledge it is curious.
mcnabbulous
What would your strategy have been?

Score faster, kick deep, try to get a three and out?
nephillymike
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 23 2016, 01:15 PM) *
What would your strategy have been?

Score faster, kick deep, try to get a three and out?



Score faster to give myself more time to either onside and engineer a drive from my own 40ish, or kick deep and stop them on a three and out or maybe even stop them after their second drive (if I have enough time) and try to score from where they punt the ball to me.

Scoring at a faster pace gives them more options, whether those options be extra time to score on our second TD drive (judging by what I saw, the Slowski's need every second they can get), or option for a defensive let down prior to getting the ball on our last drive, or the option of either doing an onside kick or kicking it deep after the first score.

Jeez, at the pace they were moving, they could have recovered the onside kick and still not had enough time to score the second TD!!

Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 23 2016, 10:53 AM) *
I'm not saying they quit. I'm saying they knew the reality of the situation. They didn't have the horses to score quickly. So their hope was to score methodically, get an onsides kick, and score again. It was a proverbial Hail Mary.

It's not why they lost the game, which is the main point. The game was basically already over.

The hole in your theory is that they would have to score quickly, if they recovered the onside kick. The methodical pace that they used to score the first of two necessary TD's would (virtually) eliminate the possibility of scoring again. That is unless you feel that Hail Mary passes have a higher rate of success.

The bottom line is Any/Doug whomever needed to push the pace and try to score quickly. They didn't. It was a coaching gaffe. It's been AR's achilles heel since Day 1.
Reality Fan
No matter how you look at it was a total goat screw and a terrible answer.

If the goal was to keep the ball away from Brady that is fine but there is no defending eating up the clock so that you have no time for the 3nd drive you will need....it as if you are trying to get the ball back with no time left..

That being said....who gives a rat's ass? It is done...Pederson is here and that's that.....oops...I forgot...it is NegaPhillyMike...hahahahaha
CT_Eagle
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 23 2016, 04:19 PM) *
I seriously don't know why people think this mattered. What Andy and Doug basically were saying was "we needed a miracle to win." Which was the case.

They weren't scoring two times in 7 minutes. Not with those receivers. Not with that quarterback. Not against that oppononent.


So what are you saying exactly? That Andy realized that the task at hand was insurmountable so why bother? I know you like Andy as a coach but he has always sucked in those situations. That closing sequence was true to form and any attempt to defend that drive is ridiculous.

CT_Eagle
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 23 2016, 05:19 PM) *
Do you have any idea how often teams down by two touchdowns with 6 minutes left come back to win? Or even easier, how often has it happened to Belichick's Patriots?

I suspect it is very rarely.

You're focused on the wrong things. That game wasn't about Andy or Doug's clock management. It was about Brady's brilliance. He took the Chiefs pass rush out of the game. He's the best. The Chiefs weren't beating him that day.


Damn dude. I am starting to thing you have a thing for Andy.

To answer your first question I do know the answer of hand. What I can say is that the clock management at the end of that game made the task damn near impossible.

I agree that the game was not about Andy's clock management but that last drive sure as hell was.
CT_Eagle
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jan 23 2016, 07:25 PM) *
Score faster to give myself more time to either onside and engineer a drive from my own 40ish, or kick deep and stop them on a three and out or maybe even stop them after their second drive (if I have enough time) and try to score from where they punt the ball to me.

Scoring at a faster pace gives them more options, whether those options be extra time to score on our second TD drive (judging by what I saw, the Slowski's need every second they can get), or option for a defensive let down prior to getting the ball on our last drive, or the option of either doing an onside kick or kicking it deep after the first score.

Jeez, at the pace they were moving, they could have recovered the onside kick and still not had enough time to score the second TD!!


Nailed it. Your approach does not guarantee a victory of course but it would have given the Chiefs their best chance of completing the comeback.
mcnabbulous
They would have had the ball at the 44 yardline with 3 timeouts and 1:13 on the clock. It really wasn't much of an issue. I don't think they handled the time around the two min warning well, but I think that says more about their struggles to score than anything else.

Once again, none of this cost them the game. It would have been a miracle had they won, given the way things played out.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jan 23 2016, 03:34 PM) *
No matter how you look at it was a total goat screw and a terrible answer.

If the goal was to keep the ball away from Brady that is fine but there is no defending eating up the clock so that you have no time for the 3nd drive you will need....it as if you are trying to get the ball back with no time left..

That being said....who gives a rat's ass? It is done...Pederson is here and that's that.....oops...I forgot...it is NegaPhillyMike...hahahahaha

hey hey!!!

I resemble that remark..............................

You don't care about it either?
The Franchise
I looked at the title of the thread, and before reading the comments, thought to myself "I bet a certain fanboy moron will....."

laugh.gif

Good god. I mean, seriously. Being a fanboy is one thing. Having a man-crush on someone is another. Combining that with not knowing anything about football or math is yet another. But what I'm reading here?!??!

The fact that our resident dumbass is giddy about Pederson gives me more pause than anything else. I truly hope DP was just showing class and not wanting to throw Andy under the bus with his bullshit response to the question about KC's 5 minute drill. If we're truly getting Andy Part Deux in terms of clock management, it's going to be a long couple of years.....
mcnabbulous
If you don't think going 44 yards with 1:13 and 3 timeouts is possible, I'm not sure how you justify saying they should have moved faster to score the first one.

Yeah, they could have saved time around the two min warning. But they also were trying to score against Bill Belichick's defense with Albert Wilson and Jason Avant as their primary receivers.

It was hard. They tried. It seriously didn't matter. You guys can be worried about it if you want. I'm not.

If we, like the Chiefs, are built to win with defense and ball control, just assume we won't be winning many games where we trail by two touchdowns late in the 4th. You'll sleep easier.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 23 2016, 05:06 PM) *
If you don't think going 44 yards with 1:13 and 3 timeouts is possible, I'm not sure how you justify saying they should have moved faster to score the first one.

Yeah, they could have saved time around the two min warning. But they also were trying to score against Bill Belichick's defense with Albert Wilson and Jason Avant as their primary receivers.

It was hard. They tried. It seriously didn't matter. You guys can be worried about it if you want. I'm not.

If we, like the Chiefs, are built to win with defense and ball control, just assume we won't be winning many games where we trail by two touchdowns late in the 4th. You'll sleep easier.

You still can't admit that the playcalling was at fault? Instead you justify the methodical drive.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 23 2016, 10:43 PM) *
You still can't admit that the playcalling was at fault? Instead you justify the methodical drive.

What types of plays do you think they should have been calling? Go routes with Jason Avant?

You can't give yourself a chance to score two TDs until you score the first one. That's what they were trying to do. They did and gave themselves a chance for an onsides kick. That was about as much as they could have hoped for.

In a perfect world, they would have scored more quickly, but had that been so easy, they likely wouldn't have found themselves in the 14 point deficit to begin with.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 24 2016, 12:00 AM) *
What types of plays do you think they should have been calling? Go routes with Jason Avant?

You can't give yourself a chance to score two TDs until you score the first one. That's what they were trying to do. They did and gave themselves a chance for an onsides kick. That was about as much as they could have hoped for.

In a perfect world, they would have scored more quickly, but had that been so easy, they likely wouldn't have found themselves in the 14 point deficit to begin with.

How about calling the plays in a timely manner so that you aren't wasting time?
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 23 2016, 11:26 PM) *
How about calling the plays in a timely manner so that you aren't wasting time?

I already said that the situation around the 2 minute warning wasn't handled well, but it didn't impact their chances of winning.

Had they recovered the onsides kick, they would have had plenty of time to score.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 24 2016, 12:44 AM) *
I already said that the situation around the 2 minute warning wasn't handled well, but it didn't impact their chances of winning.

Had they recovered the onsides kick, they would have had plenty of time to score.

Again, your logic doesn't make sense.
- Execute a methodical drive, because a quick score isn't possible against the "vaunted" NE defense. Taking your time in between plays of your TD drive. Attempt an onside kick, so that you can make a quick score against the "vaunted" NE defense....of which you have "plenty of time to score" (1m 14s)
nephillymike
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 24 2016, 12:44 AM) *
I already said that the situation around the 2 minute warning wasn't handled well, but it didn't impact their chances of winning.

Had they recovered the onsides kick, they would have had plenty of time to score.



Nabby, they called nine plays that took more than 24 seconds, four in excess of 30 seconds!!

I don't care if it is me and you running the patterns, that is gross mismanagement of the clock. No excuse for it.

And that's the important takeaway. As an Eagles fan, I don't give a shit that NE was better than KC, but I do care that the architect of the second half play calling and that final drive is now our HC calling the plays for us.

With us being used to Chip's pace and never worrying about time or timeouts, if Doug doesn't get this straightened out, he will get killed for this. It will be such a stark contrast.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 23 2016, 11:59 PM) *
Again, your logic doesn't make sense.
- Execute a methodical drive, because a quick score isn't possible against the "vaunted" NE defense. Taking your time in between plays of your TD drive. Attempt an onside kick, so that you can make a quick score against the "vaunted" NE defense....of which you have "plenty of time to score" (1m 14s)

40ish yards and 3 timeouts. That is more than enough time.

I keep saying, they bungled the time around the 2 minute warning. They should have had closer to two minutes. But it wasn't that big of a deal. 1:14 and 3 timeouts is more than enough time to move 40+ yards. It's not the Hail Mary situation you suggested before.

Saying my logic makes sense is no different than me saying your logic makes no sense. You can't say 1:14 and 3 timeouts isn't enough time to move 44 yards and then say they should have moved faster the first time around.

It seriously wasn't an issue. Had they recovered the onsides kick, they would have put themselves in the position they were hoping to. Regardless, it was a desperate situation because of how the game played out.
Reality Fan
Mikey...you have to give it up....while it is the most bizarre of his many bizarre defenses, there are 2 things you should realize....he will never change his mind and he will never say he is wrong....somehow it is better to have 3 timeouts and 1:14 seconds left than it is to have 3 timeouts and 2 minutes or 3 minutes...

to all rational minds it was a situation for a hurry-up offense and yet......

Just when you think you heard it all...
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jan 24 2016, 12:00 AM) *
With us being used to Chip's pace and never worrying about time or timeouts, if Doug doesn't get this straightened out, he will get killed for this. It will be such a stark contrast.

Doug will do some things that are better than Chip, some that are worse, and lots that are different.

If he has a guy like Alex Smith throwing to receivers like Avant and Wilson, he's not going to try to score quick. Maybe if Chip had that mentality, our defense wouldn't have played significantly more snaps than every other team in football during his tenure.

You guys are just worrying about something that's not worth worrying about. Instead of freaking out over a minute of clock management, you should be focused on what that Chiefs team was able to achieve. Once Doug took over second half play calling, they didn't lose a regular season game.

They gave themselves a shot, but it was a desperate attempt because Brady had a fantastic performance. The only real shot they had of winning that game was causing him to have an off day. He didn't allow it to happen. The extra minute didn't impact the game and most likely wouldn't have even had they recovered the onsides kick.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jan 24 2016, 09:33 AM) *
Mikey...you have to give it up....while it is the most bizarre of his many bizarre defenses, there are 2 things you should realize....he will never change his mind and he will never say he is wrong....somehow it is better to have 3 timeouts and 1:14 seconds left than it is to have 3 timeouts and 2 minutes or 3 minutes...

to all rational minds it was a situation for a hurry-up offense and yet......

Just when you think you heard it all...

There is a quote feature. Go ahead and quote the part where I said it was better to have 1:14 than 2 or 3 minutes.

What I said was that it didn't really matter. Because it didn't. It could have been handled better, but it didn't matter either way. They had plenty of time if the opportunity presented itself. But it was such a long shot anyways, the fact that they gave themselves a chance was impressive in its own right.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 24 2016, 10:39 AM) *
Doug will do some things that are better than Chip, some that are worse, and lots that are different.

If he has a guy like Alex Smith throwing to receivers like Avant and Wilson, he's not going to try to score quick. Maybe if Chip had that mentality, our defense wouldn't have played significantly more snaps than every other team in football during his tenure.

You guys are just worrying about something that's not worth worrying about. Instead of freaking out over a minute of clock management, you should be focused on what that Chiefs team was able to achieve. Once Doug took over second half play calling, they didn't lose a regular season game.

They gave themselves a shot, but it was a desperate attempt because Brady had a fantastic performance. The only real shot they had of winning that game was causing him to have an off day. He didn't allow it to happen. The extra minute didn't impact the game and most likely wouldn't have even had they recovered the onsides kick.


I agree that it is meaningless at this point and that it was pretty much over already.....

But with a top defense you have to trust them......regardless...because the odds are far better that they get a 3 and out against Brady than that they recover an onside kick.....you have to see that, right? and beyond that....even if you want to score and have an onside kick....as it played out they were on the doorstep withnearly 3 minutes left.....

It was a bad coaching display...but it is a teaching moment and hopefully Doug learned from it....it was not his fault....Reid obviously agreed...it is on him...
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jan 24 2016, 09:46 AM) *
I agree that it is meaningless at this point and that it was pretty much over already.....

But with a top defense you have to trust them......regardless...because the odds are far better that they get a 3 and out against Brady than that they recover an onside kick.....you have to see that, right? and beyond that....even if you want to score and have an onside kick....as it played out they were on the doorstep withnearly 3 minutes left.....

It was a bad coaching display...but it is a teaching moment and hopefully Doug learned from it....it was not his fault....Reid obviously agreed...it is on him...

They were a top defense largely because of their pass rush, right? Their best pass rusher is Justin Houston. Justin Houston was a shell of himself due to injury.

And even had he been in there, Brady was masterfully getting rid of the ball immediately, taking the pass rush out of the game. Kicking the ball to him was never an option. Regardless of scoring with 2 or 3 minutes.

You guys are funny though. You wanted a team that was struggling to score to score faster. All running a hurry up would have done was hurried up how quickly that drive stalled out. They were running different formations and personnel because they didn't have the horses to just go out there and move the ball.

They ended up scoring and giving themselves enough time to have a small chance to do it again. They needed a miracle and didn't get it.
Zero
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 24 2016, 11:01 AM) *
They were a top defense largely because of their pass rush, right? Their best pass rusher is Justin Houston. Justin Houston was a shell of himself due to injury.

And even had he been in there, Brady was masterfully getting rid of the ball immediately, taking the pass rush out of the game. Kicking the ball to him was never an option. Regardless of scoring with 2 or 3 minutes.

You guys are funny though. You wanted a team that was struggling to score to score faster. All running a hurry up would have done was hurried up how quickly that drive stalled out. They were running different formations and personnel because they didn't have the horses to just go out there and move the ball.

They ended up scoring and giving themselves enough time to have a small chance to do it again. They needed a miracle and didn't get it.

Your logic is like a maze. To score more than once they had to give the ball to him. To score twice in a limited time frame they had to hurry up. I fail to see how anyone can argue against that.
mcnabbulous
No they didn't. They had to recover the onsides kick. Had they done that, it would have been fine.

They had no confidence in their ability to stop Brady, so that was never part of the plan. I'm not sure what you guys don't get about that.

Their plan was to onsides kick. Whether 1:14 on the clock, two minutes, or three.

If your point is that they wouldn't have been able to score with 1:14 and 3 timeouts, I concede that was a risk. But if that's your point, I don't understand how you suggest the first drive should have moved any faster.

Their goal in the first drive was to score. Anything beyond that was desperation.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Zero @ Jan 24 2016, 12:12 PM) *
Your logic is like a maze. To score more than once they had to give the ball to him. To score twice in a limited time frame they had to hurry up. I fail to see how anyone can argue against that.



Your mistake is that you are thinking logically....we both know it was a horribly misguided strategy at best...incompetence at worst.....you will never get nabby to realize that.....rest knowing that you are right and nabby is....welll...nabby...lol
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