Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: You know one question we really need to answer right now?
Eagles Forum > Philadelphia Eagles Message Board > Philadelphia Eagles or Football Related Discussion
nephillymike
And it's a tough one:

1. How close is this team to being a legit SB contender?

I mean, the overwhelming majority of the board thought we weren't there yet this year, and that was at the time we had sugar plums of 11, 12 and 13 wins dancing in our heads.

If we weren't close then, where the hell are we now?

If you say we're within two years of being there, you proceed one way, if our growth cycle is longer than that, then we proceed another way, both with coach and QB decisions.

Am I going out on a limb in saying that this team is really not good, and we are more than two years away from being a CAR DEN, NE or ARI?

This is the toughest look in the mirror question we need to ask.

I am normally a "lets do it this year" type more than most, but man, I just don't see it with this team.

I an be swayed to where I want to go, but I don't see it.
Phits
It's all relative to whether we have a franchise QB or not. If Bradford is expected to carry us to the promised land, we are 2-3 years away from the elite category (assuming that we take care of the OL needs, and the receivers progress as expected)

If Bradford is not the QB of the future we are (at least) 5 years away, assuming that we are able to find this mythical figure this off-season.
Reality Fan
Honestly? I have no frickin clue....

Who thought Carolina would be 15-1?

This league is so hard to predict, teams go from worst to first so fast anymore...I don't think they are all that far from the rest of the division but maybe 2 years from being top 10.....3 years from a contender....so hard to say
Zero
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jan 11 2016, 12:02 AM) *
This league is so hard to predict, teams go from worst to first so fast anymore...I don't think they are all that far from the rest of the division but maybe 2 years from being top 10.....3 years from a contender....so hard to say

It will depend entirely on the new coach, the new systems and how he fixes what's broke. But, I agree. With a rebuilt OL and a reliable WR to pair with Matthews they're headed in the right direction. It'll realistically take at least two years to get new OL to play consistently well together and for the QB to get comfortable with both the receivers and the OL. They can make some waves next year, and if the defense can play top 5 with a new DC they may not have to wait until 2017 to have a nice playoff run. We've all seen that the playoffs are ruled by the football gods and anything can happen.

This is called Optimystic.
nd9kel
Well, if Bradford is the man, this will be his first full off-season to concentrate on something other than rehab in a couple of years. I think it will reap dramatic results.....Exponential results if he can stay in the same system with Shurmer in some capacity. Clearly there are other needs on offense, so I wouldn't say "next year is the year."

If we're more than two years away I fear we're into "aging running backs" territory.
Zero
QUOTE (nd9kel @ Jan 11 2016, 08:47 AM) *
Well, if Bradford is the man, this will be his first full off-season to concentrate on something other than rehab in a couple of years. I think it will reap dramatic results.....Exponential results if he can stay in the same system with Shurmer in some capacity. Clearly there are other needs on offense, so I wouldn't say "next year is the year."

If we're more than two years away I fear we're into "aging running backs" territory.

Malcolm Jenkins is 28. Brandon Graham 27. Connor Barwin 29. Jason Kelce 28.
CT_Eagle
Too many variables at this point. Putting aside Bradford and the new HC, this team still has some holes. OL, WR and the secondary are at the top of the list for me. The cap is a little tight for the Eagles this year so that may slow the process a bit. I am bracing for a 3 year time frame to get back to realistically expecting to go deep into the playoffs. That may be a bit optimistic but worse teams have reversed their fortunes more quickly.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Jan 11 2016, 02:55 PM) *
Too many variables at this point. Putting aside Bradford and the new HC, this team still has some holes. OL, WR and the secondary are at the top of the list for me. The cap is a little tight for the Eagles this year so that may slow the process a bit. I am bracing for a 3 year time frame to get back to realistically expecting to go deep into the playoffs. That may be a bit optimistic but worse teams have reversed their fortunes more quickly.


tough to evaluate the secondary minus the Billy Davis factor....remember...Kurt Coleman was a Pro Bowl safety in Carolina this year....Davis coached him up to his only season without an INT....

Under Davis vs. the Pass
2005 49ers 32nd
2006 49ers 26th
2009 Cardinals 23rd
2010 Cardinals 23rd

After inheriting a secondary that ranked 9th in yards allowed in Philly he promptly went:
2013 32nd
2014 31st
2015 28th

It is clear that Davis never figured out how to stop the pass and his system clearly does not work...it ain't the players
Dreagon
You have the leagues leading rusher of 2014 who likes to run between the tackles. If you draft a guard high, and sign a good free agent guard to play on the other side, you would probably have an immediate upgrade right there.

WR would be what the other high pick should be.

Assuming you hang on to Bradford, those moves could make an instant difference in your offense.
CT_Eagle
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jan 11 2016, 09:44 PM) *
tough to evaluate the secondary minus the Billy Davis factor....remember...Kurt Coleman was a Pro Bowl safety in Carolina this year....Davis coached him up to his only season without an INT....

Under Davis vs. the Pass
2005 49ers 32nd
2006 49ers 26th
2009 Cardinals 23rd
2010 Cardinals 23rd

After inheriting a secondary that ranked 9th in yards allowed in Philly he promptly went:
2013 32nd
2014 31st
2015 28th

It is clear that Davis never figured out how to stop the pass and his system clearly does not work...it ain't the players


I am not a fan of Davis and I want him gone. I did not like the hire in the first place. With that said, the drop that commenced in 2013 coincided with the introduction of Chip's offense which IMHO leaves the defense on the field too long. Both the arrival of Davis and Chip's offense led to the increase in yards against the Eagle's D. I think regardless of what happens with Davis those yards will move more towards the middle of the pack. More so if Davis is gone too.
CT_Eagle
QUOTE (Dreagon @ Jan 11 2016, 09:50 PM) *
You have the leagues leading rusher of 2014 who likes to run between the tackles. If you draft a guard high, and sign a good free agent guard to play on the other side, you would probably have an immediate upgrade right there.

WR would be what the other high pick should be.

Assuming you hang on to Bradford, those moves could make an instant difference in your offense.


I would like to see that approach. Solidify the guard position and take advantage of the depth at the RB position.
nd9kel
So you're saying there's a chance...

Zero
QUOTE (Dreagon @ Jan 11 2016, 03:50 PM) *
You have the leagues leading rusher of 2014 who likes to run between the tackles. If you draft a guard high, and sign a good free agent guard to play on the other side, you would probably have an immediate upgrade right there.

WR would be what the other high pick should be.

Assuming you hang on to Bradford, those moves could make an instant difference in your offense.

I'd rather have a decent FA WR than another rookie.
make_it_rain
QUOTE (Zero @ Jan 11 2016, 05:28 PM) *
I'd rather have a decent FA WR than another rookie.


I agree, problem is there isn't too much in terms of FA WR this year. Most notable names I can think of:

Alshon Jeffrey (Not Happening)
Mohamed Sanu
Jermain Kearse
Percy Harvin (no thanks)
Ruben Randle
Travis Benjamin
Anquan Boldin
Marvin Jones
Rishard Mathews
nephillymike
QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Jan 11 2016, 03:58 PM) *
I would like to see that approach. Solidify the guard position and take advantage of the depth at the RB position.



Am I the only one who thinks that Murray is the 3rd or 4th best RB option on this team whether they call an inside run play, an outside run play or the friggin' statue of liberty play!!?

We can't afford to eat his salary so he needs to stay as nobody will trade for him.

But I don't plan on using him much. I need to win games, not justify the personnel moves of head coaches who weren't the GM!!
Zero
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jan 11 2016, 08:25 PM) *
We can't afford to eat his salary so he needs to stay as nobody will trade for him.

We'd save $4 mil if we could find someone.
CT_Eagle
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jan 12 2016, 01:25 AM) *
Am I the only one who thinks that Murray is the 3rd or 4th best RB option on this team whether they call an inside run play, an outside run play or the friggin' statue of liberty play!!?

We can't afford to eat his salary so he needs to stay as nobody will trade for him.

But I don't plan on using him much. I need to win games, not justify the personnel moves of head coaches who weren't the GM!!


I think Murray can have value if used properly. Even if you don't designate him as the starter, improving the guards will benefit Mathews, Barner and Sproles as well.

Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jan 11 2016, 08:25 PM) *
Am I the only one who thinks that Murray is the 3rd or 4th best RB option on this team whether they call an inside run play, an outside run play or the friggin' statue of liberty play!!?

We can't afford to eat his salary so he needs to stay as nobody will trade for him.

But I don't plan on using him much. I need to win games, not justify the personnel moves of head coaches who weren't the GM!!



I think you are...and for good reason

I admit Murray started out poorly but that was likely his Hammy issues more than anything.....and ended poorly...an obvious demotion by Kelly post Lurie plane sitdown.....but he was moving very well and looked like his old self....but he is not a back to run stretch plays every down......he did not have a good year but an new offensive philosophy could benefit him greatly....it would be premature to write him off at this point....
D Rock
I honestly don't think we're that far off...

First, I say keep Bradford. He was out of football for 2 years with a twice torn ACL. It sHoUlD have been no shock that he struggled early. He looked like a legit franchise QB to me the 2nd half of the season. Imagine how much better he'd have looked if we DIDN'T lead the league with 50+ dropped passes (a generous number in my opinion) Keep him.

I like Ryan Matthews, with Murray there as expensive insurance. Sproles is sproles.

Celek still has some left in the tank and Ertz has tons of potential and upside to grow into.

Fix the interior of the O-line and draft depth for Peters.

Find someone (ANYONE) who can catch a goddam ball to play WR.

On defense, we're short a corner and (ironically) a real middle linebacker. Erick Kendricks looks like 10x the player his fraud of a brother is. SMH. Maybe Kiko looks like a player in his 2nd year removed from the ACL (wouldn't be the first player to struggle year 1 in his return from that injury).

The D line is loaded.

Add help at CB and resign #26.

So....

Fix O-line, WR and add secondary help and we're good to go from a personnel stand point.

Chip lost the locker room (or at least a portion of it). That's the story of 2015.

Reality Fan
QUOTE (D Rock @ Jan 12 2016, 03:50 PM) *
Chip lost the locker room (or at least a portion of it). That's the story of 2015.


Makes me wonder if he did not lose it in the middle of 2014.....

mcnabbulous
I'm pretty sure Hicks is the real deal at MLB.
Phits
QUOTE (D Rock @ Jan 12 2016, 03:50 PM) *
Chip lost the locker room (or at least a portion of it). That's the story of 2015.

I'm cautious of any team that gives up on their coach....especially during the season.
The Franchise
QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 12 2016, 06:32 PM) *
I'm cautious of any team that gives up on their coach....especially during the season.


We have no idea what actually happened, but where there's smoke, there's fire. Chip clearly wanted to be king, tolerated no dissent, punished players for mild infractions, and generally never realized he was dealing with millionaire professionals, not college kids. Once the losing started, they were done.
Phits
QUOTE (The Franchise @ Jan 12 2016, 07:24 PM) *
We have no idea what actually happened, but where there's smoke, there's fire. Chip clearly wanted to be king, tolerated no dissent, punished players for mild infractions, and generally never realized he was dealing with millionaire professionals, not college kids. Once the losing started, they were done.

A professional performs at the level expected and is compensated as a result. Anybody who "quit on the team" is not a professional. It's the equivalent to taking your ball and going home. If a player has an issue talk to management, talk to the union, stage a coup or hold out and not collect those bi-weekly hundred(s) thousand dollar pay checks.
Rick
QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 12 2016, 11:13 PM) *
A professional performs at the level expected and is compensated as a result. Anybody who "quit on the team" is not a professional. It's the equivalent to taking your ball and going home. If a player has an issue talk to management, talk to the union, stage a coup or hold out and not collect those bi-weekly hundred(s) thousand dollar pay checks.

I agree 100%. Anyone who was determined to have quit, should be gone...period.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 12 2016, 11:13 PM) *
A professional performs at the level expected and is compensated as a result. Anybody who "quit on the team" is not a professional. It's the equivalent to taking your ball and going home. If a player has an issue talk to management, talk to the union, stage a coup or hold out and not collect those bi-weekly hundred(s) thousand dollar pay checks.



hmmm...so it is unprofessional to not give maximum effort but it professional to "stage a coup" or better yet, hold out? I mean, you sign a legally binding contract without a gun to your head but refuse to honor its terms and that is better than going 75%? They both suck.

The problem with your point is one of idealism.....maybe you never played sports and there is no disrespect meant by that but effort is often amplified by inspiration or motivation. It is not that a player actually quits, although that does happen, but rather they do not perform to the best of their ability due to a lack of belief in the plan....they try but like anything else in life, if your heart is not in it your performance suffers.

And if you get to the point of complaining to management, it is time for a change....in sports.....once the chain of command is broken it is virtually impossible to put that toothpaste back in the tube.
Rick
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jan 13 2016, 09:45 AM) *
hmmm...so it is unprofessional to not give maximum effort but it professional to "stage a coup" or better yet, hold out? I mean, you sign a legally binding contract without a gun to your head but refuse to honor its terms and that is better than going 75%? They both suck.

The problem with your point is one of idealism.....maybe you never played sports and there is no disrespect meant by that but effort is often amplified by inspiration or motivation. It is not that a player actually quits, although that does happen, but rather they do not perform to the best of their ability due to a lack of belief in the plan....they try but like anything else in life, if your heart is not in it your performance suffers.

And if you get to the point of complaining to management, it is time for a change....in sports.....once the chain of command is broken it is virtually impossible to put that toothpaste back in the tube.

Holding out is a very different thing than agreeing to play, then deciding not to play (or play hard) because you don't like the guy the owner puts in charge of you.

I have no problem with players trying to get theirs via holdout. The teams certainly don't always honor their contracts with the players. How many times do you hear of a team going to a player and asking to restructure their contract? If the player balks, the team can always just cut them. The players don't have the same protection.

And I did play a lot of sports and still coach.
Pila
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jan 13 2016, 02:45 PM) *
The problem with your point is one of idealism.....maybe you never played sports and there is no disrespect meant by that but effort is often amplified by inspiration or motivation. It is not that a player actually quits, although that does happen, but rather they do not perform to the best of their ability due to a lack of belief in the plan....they try but like anything else in life, if your heart is not in it your performance suffers.

I'd say that is a very good way of describing it. Most professional athletes are incredibly competitive and proud to consciously quit or not try as hard. The subtle difference is minute and it's unconscious. But in professional sports, that difference shows up in terms of mistakes, mistackles, dropped balls, penalties etc. Very seldom it involves someone obviously quitting (ala Asomuguah).
Phits
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jan 13 2016, 09:45 AM) *
hmmm...so it is unprofessional to not give maximum effort but it professional to "stage a coup" or better yet, hold out? I mean, you sign a legally binding contract without a gun to your head but refuse to honor its terms and that is better than going 75%? They both suck.

The problem with your point is one of idealism.....maybe you never played sports and there is no disrespect meant by that but effort is often amplified by inspiration or motivation. It is not that a player actually quits, although that does happen, but rather they do not perform to the best of their ability due to a lack of belief in the plan....they try but like anything else in life, if your heart is not in it your performance suffers.

And if you get to the point of complaining to management, it is time for a change....in sports.....once the chain of command is broken it is virtually impossible to put that toothpaste back in the tube.

For the love of the game is one thing, but if you are a professional you're being compensated financially to perform at the level to which you are expected. This is a business not a pick up game. If integrity is so important that you find it difficult to perform at your best, it is time to look for a new line of work. After all these are professional athletes not college players.

A chain of command is established so that everybody knows their role. Players play, coaches coach. A player who thinks they know better than the coach is not who you want on the team. Just going through the motions is not the sign of a good professional.
mcnabbulous
Considering that it sounds like Lurie also hated Chip, I'm not sure we can really blame the players on this one.

Chip is a brilliant football mind, but he's obviously a flawed social being.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 13 2016, 10:58 AM) *
Considering that it sounds like Lurie also hated Chip, I'm not sure we can really blame the players on this one.

Chip is a brilliant football mind, but he's obviously a flawed social being.

That may be the case, but I am of the opinion that you play your ass off while you are getting paid. Save your grievances for the off-season.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 13 2016, 10:36 AM) *
That may be the case, but I am of the opinion that you play your ass off while you are getting paid. Save your grievances for the off-season.

I tend to agree, but this situation is becoming more clearly unique.

The fact that Chip has gotten one sympathy interview since being canned tells me that the behind the scene stuff in Philly must have been incredibly toxic. No one will even sniff Chip and I'm almost certain it's because of Lurie's reputation and respect around the league.
The Franchise
QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 12 2016, 11:13 PM) *
A professional performs at the level expected and is compensated as a result. Anybody who "quit on the team" is not a professional. It's the equivalent to taking your ball and going home. If a player has an issue talk to management, talk to the union, stage a coup or hold out and not collect those bi-weekly hundred(s) thousand dollar pay checks.


Well put - if Lurie's film company ever decides to do a 1950's style instructional video on player conduct, you should be the one to narrate it.

Now back to reality - we just watched two thugs hand a fucking playoff game to a rival because one wanted to injure an opponent, and another couldn't handle being dissed by an opposing coach. It has to be tough keeping control over a locker room, and once you lose it, you don't get it back. Chip lost it.
Phits
QUOTE (The Franchise @ Jan 13 2016, 09:47 PM) *
Well put - if Lurie's film company ever decides to do a 1950's style instructional video on player conduct, you should be the one to narrate it.

Now back to reality - we just watched two thugs hand a fucking playoff game to a rival because one wanted to injure an opponent, and another couldn't handle being dissed by an opposing coach. It has to be tough keeping control over a locker room, and once you lose it, you don't get it back. Chip lost it.

Reality is what you make it. If you allow the inmates to run the asylum, who's really in charge? you don't kiss cancer and make nice with it. You cut it out and throw it away.

Chip was on the right track. His problem was that he didn't have enough history in the NFL to justify his actions. The players sensed weakness and essentially did what they wanted. Lurie ultimately backed their play. Now we (as fans) have to live with the consequences.

- Apparently none of the HC prospects are interested in the role
- Our 'franchise QB' seems disinterested in playing for us
- The team talent level is at the glass half empty stage
- We now have a locker room that knows they can win a power struggle with the coaching staff

Great days ahead for Eagledom.
The Franchise
QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 13 2016, 11:00 PM) *
Chip was on the right track. His problem was that he didn't have enough history in the NFL to justify his actions. The players sensed weakness and essentially did what they wanted. Lurie ultimately backed their play. Now we (as fans) have to live with the consequences.


This whole series of events has basically been swept under the rug. The murmurs we hear are of an entire organization, from the billionaire owner down to the rookies, that hated his guts and were sick of him.

His main problem is simple - he started losing.
Phits
QUOTE (The Franchise @ Jan 13 2016, 10:06 PM) *
This whole series of events has basically been swept under the rug. The murmurs we hear are of an entire organization, from the billionaire owner down to the rookies, that hated his guts and were sick of him.

His main problem is simple - he started losing.

That about says it all.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2017 Invision Power Services, Inc.