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nephillymike
I'm still on the fence about him, which is remarkable improvement from where I was mid season.

On the plus side, I like him. Seems like he is a good guy and we heard about some leadership qualities he exhibited. On the field, he grew a set of balls and hung in there and made some tough throws.

Also, with him going through so many OC's in his career, I feel for his plight of having to do it again, especially after all of the adjustments needed for Chip's system.

He has played better since coming back from injury, logging in an average game passer rating of 89.9 the last four games against defenses that give up passer ratings of 86.4, so a decent 3.5 ticks higher.

On the season, however, he's got a passer rating of 84.6 against defenses that normally give up 90.1, 5.5 ticks lower.

He's a 78 career guy who's improved to a 84 in a QB friendly offense (admitting that the WR suck balls and weren't very friendly). He's 27th ranked starting QB in the league in passer rating.

Sure his rating over the last four games are top 20ish, but what do you weigh more in the equation, a four game streak or an entire season, or an entire career.

If we could get him for cheap by starting QB standards, say $10M or so, then maybe I'd sign him short term. But in the NFL, QB's are in high demand, and a 1st overall pick pedigree proven that he's healthy QB, even with poor performance stats, is going to land in the $40-$60M guarantee range, in the $16M-$20M average per year range. Franchising him could cost $22-$25M guaranteed and hurt the cap. I can't do it. Way too expensive for the quality of play.

Does anyone else take that deal? Say 5 years, 18M avg per year, $50M guaranteed?

BTW, in another post, I have the comparable QB contract info for recent signees.

I just can't.



Rick
This is exactly what I've been thinking about Bradford. He sucked balls early and has improved greatly towards the end. I'm still not 100% sold on him but I was 100% against him until recently. Problem is, as you mentioned, someone will over-pay for him based on the horrid state of QB play in the NFL at this time.

The question is, does the next HC see Bradford as a fit for what ever offense they bring in? That's the toughest part, the unknown.

The other problem is, what's the alternative? I was saying Kapernick would be a nice fit for Kelly's offense if they could get him for a decent trade. Well, we're not running Kelly's offense any longer. So not sure whether he'd be a good fit here yet.

I'll be SHOCKED if the Redskins don't over-pay Cousins to stay there.

So, the Eagles may be forced to over-pay Bradford. Sure, they could franchise him and only over-pay him for one season but then we're right back to where we were before this season--with a QB we're not 100% sure of with a 1 year contract. Kelly not making the trade contingent on Bradford extending really screwed us at QB.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Rick @ Jan 1 2016, 10:25 AM) *
This is exactly what I've been thinking about Bradford. He sucked balls early and has improved greatly towards the end. I'm still not 100% sold on him but I was 100% against him until recently. Problem is, as you mentioned, someone will over-pay for him based on the horrid state of QB play in the NFL at this time.

The question is, does the next HC see Bradford as a fit for what ever offense they bring in? That's the toughest part, the unknown.

The other problem is, what's the alternative? I was saying Kapernick would be a nice fit for Kelly's offense if they could get him for a decent trade. Well, we're not running Kelly's offense any longer. So not sure whether he'd be a good fit here yet.

I'll be SHOCKED if the Redskins don't over-pay Cousins to stay there.

So, the Eagles may be forced to over-pay Bradford. Sure, they could franchise him and only over-pay him for one season but then we're right back to where we were before this season--with a QB we're not 100% sure of with a 1 year contract. Kelly not making the trade contingent on Bradford extending really screwed us at QB.


Rick,

Even if the new coach determines that he is a fit for his offense, do you pay him the market value?

I can't see justification for that.

I would like to think differently, but I can't.
Rick
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jan 1 2016, 10:31 AM) *
Rick,

Even if the new coach determines that he is a fit for his offense, do you pay him the market value?

I can't see justification for that.

I would like to think differently, but I can't.

I'm with ya. It's tough to do but, what are our options? Unfortunately, we may be forced to over-pay him.

This, of course, all depends on whether Bradford even wants to play here any longer.
Zero
With the needs for a solid WR and at least one OL in FA, if they resign Bradford or decide to sign an available Kaepernick the contract has to be team friendly. Fair to the player, but for the benefit of both they need to add those parts. His cap hit this year was $13 mil this year, what would his cap # be in your scenario?
nephillymike
You got Sanchez for another year.

Sure he didn't play well in the two games against generous defenses. But not having Peters, Mathews and Ertz for most of those two games, AND being way behind for most of those two games, had an impact in his lowly 80 passer rating performances. He should suffice for one year.

Being in a veteran QB to compete.

Draft a kid.

Use the $15M of cap and $40M of real money you'd save and put it into other areas of the team.

I think Sanchez plus that money used wisely, is a heck of a lot better option.

Worst case scenario, it doesn't work, we don't make the playoffs next year like we didn't the last two, and we hope the kid develops and to hedge our bets, draft another kid next year.

Keep on swinging until we hit one out of the park.
Rick
I so don't want to ever see Sanchez behind center ever again...unless it's against the Eagles. Talk about a turnover machine! 86 TD and 84 Interceptions. I don't care what line he has in front of him, the guy is just a turnover machine. I like him personally but, as a QB, hell no!

But, over-paying for someone to give everyone false hope isn't a great option either.

Maybe Bradford starts to flourish? Who the hell knows.

Horrible situation the Eagles are in currently.
Zero
The Eagles aren't winning the cap trophy any more. Here's the breakdown of the top 20 players and what they cost the team next year. Do they keep everyone or is there room to cut. I doubt Cooper will be around, but do you try to restructure anybody? I'd extend Cox, especially if you can lower that cap number, try to renegotiate Peters and cut Cooper. I wouldn't be surprised to see Sanchez let go with a new coach either.
QUOTE
Player.............. Salary.............. Cap Hit............. Dead Money...... Cap Savings
Jason Peters......$7,550,000....... $9,300,000....... $3,000,000....... $6,300,000
Fletcher Cox......$7,799,000....... $7,799,000....... $0................... $7,799,000
Connor Barwin...$6,750,000....... $7,350,000....... $4,200,000....... $3,150,000
Malcolm Jenkins $5,000,000....... $7,166,668 .......$1,666,668...... $5,500,000
Lane Johnson.....$675,000......... $6,128,388....... $3,016,146....... $3,112,242
Mark Sanchez....$4,500,000 ......$5,500,000....... $2,000,000....... $3,500,000
Riley Cooper......$4,500,000.......$5,300,000....... $2,400,000....... $2,900,000
Jason Kelce.......$4,000,000.......$5,200,000...... $3,600,000....... $1,600,000
Brent Celek....... $4,925,000....... $5,000,000....... $0................... $5,000,000
Darren Sproles...$3,500,000...... $4,500,000....... $1,000,000....... $3,500,000
DeMeco Ryans...$2,500,000....... $4,500,000....... $1,000,000....... $3,500,000
Ryan Mathews....$3,000,000...... $4,000,000....... $3,000,000....... $1,000,000
Donnie Jones.....$1,750,000....... $2,083,334....... $333,334......... $1,750,000
Zach Ertz.......... $1,138,527........$1,711,563...... $573,036......... $1,138,527
Chris Maragos....$1,500,000...... $1,700,000....... $200,000......... $1,500,000
Allen Barbre.......$1,250,000...... $1,450,000....... $300,000......... $1,150,000
Andrew Gardner $1,183,333....... $1,358,333....... $375,000......... $983,333
Jordan Matthews$869,934......... $1,349,801.......$959,734......... $390,067
Jon Dorenbos.....$985,000......... $1,085,000....... $100,000......... $985,000
Kiko Alonso....... $941,418......... $991,418......... $0................... $991,418
Here ...
PhillySteaks
Badford, sanchize suck

We need to get a franchise qb

Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jan 1 2016, 10:15 AM) *
I'm still on the fence about him, which is remarkable improvement from where I was mid season.

Sure his rating over the last four games are top 20ish, but what do you weigh more in the equation, a four game streak or an entire season, or an entire career.

If we could get him for cheap by starting QB standards, say $10M or so, then maybe I'd sign him short term. But in the NFL, QB's are in high demand, and a 1st overall pick pedigree proven that he's healthy QB, even with poor performance stats, is going to land in the $40-$60M guarantee range, in the $16M-$20M average per year range. Franchising him could cost $22-$25M guaranteed and hurt the cap. I can't do it. Way too expensive for the quality of play.

Does anyone else take that deal? Say 5 years, 18M avg per year, $50M guaranteed?

BTW, in another post, I have the comparable QB contract info for recent signees.

I just can't.



Just so we are on the same page.....you don't want to take the last 4 games or the the last 6 games (which is even higher) but you want to count the first 6 games for a guy who did almost nothing in the offseason because , you know, he could barely walk.....did little in training camp because, you know, he had just started to...ummm..run....came off 2 knee surgeries to the same knee....was playing in a new offense on a new team and he could not be a stud immediately? Do you know how silly it sounds for you to ignore that? That is as bad as mcnabby saying that Newton inaacurracy is because the Panthers offense is more downfield...

Bradford clearly improved as the season went on....better coacking of the WRs and even his strt is markedly better....

You have convinced me...I hope they sign him to 10 years/300 million....and they tears his leg off the first practice.....you deserve it for being disingenuous...lolol
Eyrie
QUOTE (Zero @ Jan 1 2016, 04:34 PM) *
The Eagles aren't winning the cap trophy any more. Here's the breakdown of the top 20 players and what they cost the team next year. Do they keep everyone or is there room to cut. I doubt Cooper will be around, but do you try to restructure anybody? I'd extend Cox, especially if you can lower that cap number, try to renegotiate Peters and cut Cooper. I wouldn't be surprised to see Sanchez let go with a new coach either.
Here ...

Guys that look most vulnerable are Sanchez $3.5, Cooper $2.9m, Celek $5m and Ryans $3.5m, although the last two could get reworked deals to save cap space. Peters is interesting - how much of the decline in his play was due to injury and how much to age? I'd be inclined to keep him for another year if only because we have two Gs and a future T to find, which is more disruption than the OL needs with a new system to learn.

Untouchables would be Barwin, Jenkins, Kelce and Sproles due to their contribution. Cox gets that extension.

So we have plenty of money for Bradford if we want him. And whilst I'm not his biggest fan I wouldn't be opposed to a new deal given the alternatives. Sadly those same alternatives mean that we will have to "overpay" to match other offers.
Zero
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Jan 1 2016, 01:44 PM) *
Guys that look most vulnerable are Sanchez $3.5, Cooper $2.9m, Celek $5m and Ryans $3.5m, although the last two could get reworked deals to save cap space. Peters is interesting - how much of the decline in his play was due to injury and how much to age? I'd be inclined to keep him for another year if only because we have two Gs and a future T to find, which is more disruption than the OL needs with a new system to learn.

Untouchables would be Barwin, Jenkins, Kelce and Sproles due to their contribution. Cox gets that extension.

So we have plenty of money for Bradford if we want him. And whilst I'm not his biggest fan I wouldn't be opposed to a new deal given the alternatives. Sadly those same alternatives mean that we will have to "overpay" to match other offers.

I'd try to renegotiate Peters and maybe Celek and Ryans. I think Bradford or any FA depends a lot on who the coach is.
nd9kel
Question: What could possibly be a worse offense for Bradford to fit than Kelly's offense?
nephillymike
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jan 1 2016, 12:56 PM) *
Just so we are on the same page.....you don't want to take the last 4 games or the the last 6 games (which is even higher) but you want to count the first 6 games for a guy who did almost nothing in the offseason because , you know, he could barely walk.....did little in training camp because, you know, he had just started to...ummm..run....came off 2 knee surgeries to the same knee....was playing in a new offense on a new team and he could not be a stud immediately? Do you know how silly it sounds for you to ignore that? That is as bad as mcnabby saying that Newton inaacurracy is because the Panthers offense is more downfield...

Bradford clearly improved as the season went on....better coacking of the WRs and even his strt is markedly better....

You have convinced me...I hope they sign him to 10 years/300 million....and they tears his leg off the first practice.....you deserve it for being disingenuous...lolol


Not disingenuous at all.

The guy's career, and entire season and the snippets of his last four games, six games, one quarter of a pre season game, are not worth what the market will pay him.

So for the record, based on what you know of his career, and how he played this year, RF would definitely ante up and pay the $40-$60M guarantees and $16-20M per year to sign Sam Bradford as the long term answer as our QB.

Is that correct?

If it is not, state your Maclin line, what is considered too much for RF to land Bradford as your QB.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jan 1 2016, 04:21 PM) *
Not disingenuous at all.

The guy's career, and entire season and the snippets of his last four games, six games, one quarter of a pre season game, are not worth what the market will pay him.

So for the record, based on what you know of his career, and how he played this year, RF would definitely ante up and pay the $40-$60M guarantees and $16-20M per year to sign Sam Bradford as the long term answer as our QB.

Is that correct?

If it is not, state your Maclin line, what is considered too much for RF to land Bradford as your QB.


I expect him to get a 4-5 year contract for 18-20 million per and 30 guaranteed....much what any viable starter will get in this league...there simply is not another starter quality guy out there looking for work that is an upgrade....good or bad Bradford is the best food in the pantry....

Now maybe a good personnel guy can get him for a shrter period or less money but I think 4 years is the least to be expected realistically...he is the best of a bad lot and there is no one in college that is anywhere near a sure thing.

Bradford clearly improved and did so with a mediocre group and sadly with a coach who had lost his way....I don't think he is great but I do think he has shown his potential is pretty bright right now...remember...he was playing pretty well when he blew out his knee.......it looked like he was back for the last 6 games...he has his confidence back and that has changed his game
rumply
Sanchez as starter?? I dont think I could watch that again for any length of time - He's ok as a backup, but just ok.

I'm scratching my head a bit because people cant see the obvious improvement Bradford showed this season despite having who knows how many quality passes dropped cold by his receivers, having to work behind an OL that was clearly struggling most of the time, & a having a running game that looked to be a little confused at times as to what it was supposed to be. How would Bradford's numbers have looked if say Maclin had still been on the team & if that money pissed away on Murray has been spent on the OL?

I say the Eagles take the risk & pay Bradford, because if they dont someone else will.
Eyrie
QUOTE (Zero @ Jan 1 2016, 06:55 PM) *
I'd try to renegotiate Peters and maybe Celek and Ryans. I think Bradford or any FA depends a lot on who the coach is.

Peters is about to be 34 and is signed through 2018, so probably won't be amenable to anything that will cost him cash. I'd expect him to retire when his current deal expires.

I'd be inclined to keep him on his existing contract for 2016 (and hope 2015 was just injuries). That can buy us time to draft a T in the third round and slot the rookie in at G for a year or two before replacing Peters.
nephillymike
QUOTE (rumply @ Jan 1 2016, 05:02 PM) *
Sanchez as starter?? I dont think I could watch that again for any length of time - He's ok as a backup, but just ok.

I'm scratching my head a bit because people cant see the obvious improvement Bradford showed this season despite having who knows how many quality passes dropped cold by his receivers, having to work behind an OL that was clearly struggling most of the time, & a having a running game that looked to be a little confused at times as to what it was supposed to be. How would Bradford's numbers have looked if say Maclin had still been on the team & if that money pissed away on Murray has been spent on the OL?

I say the Eagles take the risk & pay Bradford, because if they dont someone else will.


I should clarify the Sanchez starting comment.

If we keep a Chip Kelly type offense with short passing game, I would be more inclined to keep him on as a stop gap starter and/or viable competitor for the job. In that type of offense, Sanchez is comparable and would be a good fit.

I would not be interested in a chuck the ball down the field type system.

nephillymike
from another post

M. Stafford, 3 yrs, 53M, 17.7M average, 41.5 guaranteed
J. Cutler, 7 years, 126.7M, 18.1M avg, 54M guaranteed
R. Tannehill, 4 years, 77M, 19.2M avg, 45M guaranteed
M. Ryan, 5 years, 103M, 20.7M avg, 41.5M guaranteed.

And for comparison:

QB franchise tag amount 2015 = 18.5M, fully guaranteed
QB franchise tag amount projected 2016 = $25.1M, fully guaranteed

Although the 25.1M guarantee could go down as the franchise amount is adjusted if deals are redone to lower cap hit for next year of QB's. The top five QB's 2016 cap amounts that make up the average are below. Look for any of these deals to be redone, which will lower the franchise tag amount before the tagging deadline:

Brees 30.0M
Flacco 28.5M
Eli 24.2M
Ben 23.9M
Ryan 23.7M

I can see Brees getting adjusted, don't know about anyone else.

Rick
QUOTE (rumply @ Jan 1 2016, 05:02 PM) *
Sanchez as starter?? I dont think I could watch that again for any length of time - He's ok as a backup, but just ok.

I'm scratching my head a bit because people cant see the obvious improvement Bradford showed this season despite having who knows how many quality passes dropped cold by his receivers, having to work behind an OL that was clearly struggling most of the time, & a having a running game that looked to be a little confused at times as to what it was supposed to be. How would Bradford's numbers have looked if say Maclin had still been on the team & if that money pissed away on Murray has been spent on the OL?

I say the Eagles take the risk & pay Bradford, because if they dont someone else will.

We've all noted his improvement as the season went on. All we're saying is, we're not sure if he is a long-term viable starter with the ability to be a franchise QB. I am on the fence now, which is WAY better than I was before.

It's not a question of sign him because others will. First of all, he has to WANT to stay in Philly. And, more importantly, it's not worth spending all that money on the guy if you don't believe he is THE guy. Why waste the money on someone if you don't believe in him?
Zero
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jan 1 2016, 06:31 PM) *
from another post

M. Stafford, 3 yrs, 53M, 17.7M average, 41.5 guaranteed
J. Cutler, 7 years, 126.7M, 18.1M avg, 54M guaranteed
R. Tannehill, 4 years, 77M, 19.2M avg, 45M guaranteed
M. Ryan, 5 years, 103M, 20.7M avg, 41.5M guaranteed.

And for comparison:

QB franchise tag amount 2015 = 18.5M, fully guaranteed
QB franchise tag amount projected 2016 = $25.1M, fully guaranteed

Although the 25.1M guarantee could go down as the franchise amount is adjusted if deals are redone to lower cap hit for next year of QB's. The top five QB's 2016 cap amounts that make up the average are below. Look for any of these deals to be redone, which will lower the franchise tag amount before the tagging deadline:

Brees 30.0M
Flacco 28.5M
Eli 24.2M
Ben 23.9M
Ryan 23.7M

I can see Brees getting adjusted, don't know about anyone else.
I could see him getting a Stafford type deal if the new coach wants him. He still has something to prove and, essentially starting over the Eagles could use the draft or maybe a trade as an alternative. I doubt there's a "win now" dictum for the new coach.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jan 1 2016, 06:31 PM) *
from another post

M. Stafford, 3 yrs, 53M, 17.7M average, 41.5 guaranteed
J. Cutler, 7 years, 126.7M, 18.1M avg, 54M guaranteed
R. Tannehill, 4 years, 77M, 19.2M avg, 45M guaranteed
M. Ryan, 5 years, 103M, 20.7M avg, 41.5M guaranteed.

And for comparison:

QB franchise tag amount 2015 = 18.5M, fully guaranteed
QB franchise tag amount projected 2016 = $25.1M, fully guaranteed

Although the 25.1M guarantee could go down as the franchise amount is adjusted if deals are redone to lower cap hit for next year of QB's. The top five QB's 2016 cap amounts that make up the average are below. Look for any of these deals to be redone, which will lower the franchise tag amount before the tagging deadline:

Brees 30.0M
Flacco 28.5M
Eli 24.2M
Ben 23.9M
Ryan 23.7M

I can see Brees getting adjusted, don't know about anyone else.


Flacco will also get adjusted...they talked before the season...his injury clouds that but he will get a new deal....

Also..all these guys (your contract examples)were negotiating from a position of strength with teams they have played on for years....Bradford is not in that position...
rumply
QUOTE (Rick @ Jan 1 2016, 07:56 PM) *
We've all noted his improvement as the season went on. All we're saying is, we're not sure if he is a long-term viable starter with the ability to be a franchise QB. I am on the fence now, which is WAY better than I was before.

It's not a question of sign him because others will. First of all, he has to WANT to stay in Philly. And, more importantly, it's not worth spending all that money on the guy if you don't believe he is THE guy. Why waste the money on someone if you don't believe in him?



If Bradford wants to go, then there's not much that can be done about that. Of course the front office doesn't spend the money if they don't believe he is the chosen one, but there comes a point where you have to commit to a guy & give him a balanced team to give him every chance to show what he can do. Bradford didnt have much of an opportunity this year off the back of serious injury & extended time out of the game to show his all but still put up good numbers at the back end.

The Eagles are heading into Cleveland territory when it comes to their starting QB stats, that shit has got to stop.
Joegrane
So that would be an increase for Sam from around 13 to 18mil or so right?

The eagles supposedly have 16mil free under the cap for next year, a below average amount, but that does not include the half dozen free agents, including Sam's 18mil!
http://overthecap.com/salary-cap-space/


QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jan 1 2016, 08:02 PM) *
Flacco will also get adjusted...they talked before the season...his injury clouds that but he will get a new deal....

Also..all these guys (your contract examples)were negotiating from a position of strength with teams they have played on for years....Bradford is not in that position...
nephillymike
QUOTE (Joegrane @ Jan 1 2016, 08:14 PM) *
So that would be an increase for Sam from around 13 to 18mil or so right?

The eagles supposedly have 16mil free under the cap for next year, a below average amount.
http://overthecap.com/salary-cap-space/



Actually, the way the cap works and the deals, it is likely that year 1 will have a big signing bonus that will be amortized over the term. I would imagine his year one cap hit will be less than $13M, even with a cash outlay of over $25M.
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