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nephillymike
Proud of Ya.

Even to an easy going glass always half full type of guy, even Jeff would not sit there idly and listen to his head of everything try to disclaim GM duties.

My guess is that after hearing that bull shit about not being the GM, Jeff called a meeting, didn't hear a mea culpa and said get the fuck off of my team.

Wait to you hear these guys throw this coach under the bus.

I am not sure if we'll find a guy to take us to the promised land, but I know we just fired a guy who wouldn't get us there.

The thing about it is, is I think this offense can work in this year.

Give me Maclin, Mathis, McCoy, Jackson and either Foles, Bradford or Sanchez, and this is a 10-6 team, minimum.

Phits
Continuity is the key to success. 2 HC and GM's in 4 seasons is not the mark of a successful football team. I don't caer whether it's Chip or another guy, if you hand them the keys to the kingdom and pull the rug out from under them after a single off season ... there can't be any long term success.

With that said, all of the Lurie naysayers owe the man an apology. Apparently he does have balls and cares about more than just $$.

eagleaddict
QUOTE (Phits @ Dec 29 2015, 09:51 PM) *
Continuity is the key to success. 2 HC and GM's in 4 seasons is not the mark of a successful football team. I don't caer whether it's Chip or another guy, if you hand them the keys to the kingdom and pull the rug out from under them after a single off season ... there can't be any long term success.

With that said, all of the Lurie naysayers owe the man an apology. Apparently he does have balls and cares about more than just $$.

I'd bet jersey sales were down this year. But hopefully you're right.
Joegrane
I agree with you. That is why I think this is more likely to send the Eagles into the next Ice Age than send them to the playoffs in the next few years.

Laurie had success with Andy so maybe potential GMs and coaches will take him seriously; however, they'll have to be nervous about an owner who dumped his coach/GM so quickly.

Your two most important players are both free agents, no--Cox and Bradford?

Will we see the big name FAs leave the Eagles over the next few years like we did after Buddy Ryan left?

If Pat Shurmur is the next coach, maybe you are able to retain Bradford. Could this be the reason to let Chip go before the last game?

QUOTE (Phits @ Dec 29 2015, 08:51 PM) *
Continuity is the key to success. 2 HC and GM's in 4 seasons is not the mark of a successful football team. I don't caer whether it's Chip or another guy, if you hand them the keys to the kingdom and pull the rug out from under them after a single off season ... there can't be any long term success....

The Franchise
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Dec 29 2015, 08:37 PM) *
Give me Maclin, Mathis, McCoy, Jackson and either Foles, Bradford or Sanchez, and this is a 10-6 team, minimum.


Actually, it's 10-6, maximum. We saw it twice after all.
Eyrie
QUOTE (Phits @ Dec 30 2015, 01:51 AM) *
Continuity is the key to success. 2 HC and GM's in 4 seasons is not the mark of a successful football team. I don't caer whether it's Chip or another guy, if you hand them the keys to the kingdom and pull the rug out from under them after a single off season ... there can't be any long term success.

With that said, all of the Lurie naysayers owe the man an apology. Apparently he does have balls and cares about more than just $$.

Based on what we saw in 2015, the only continuity would have been of mediocrity. We're now about to enter a genuine rebuilding season with the new head coach starting from scratch.

QUOTE (Joegrane @ Dec 30 2015, 04:23 AM) *
Your two most important players are both free agents, no--Cox and Bradford?

We've got Cox for 2016.
Rick
QUOTE (Phits @ Dec 29 2015, 08:51 PM) *
Continuity is the key to success. 2 HC and GM's in 4 seasons is not the mark of a successful football team. I don't caer whether it's Chip or another guy, if you hand them the keys to the kingdom and pull the rug out from under them after a single off season ... there can't be any long term success.

With that said, all of the Lurie naysayers owe the man an apology. Apparently he does have balls and cares about more than just $$.

Agreed. However, I just hope we wind up with someone who can come in and rebuild and make them a contender again. This has set us back 3-5 years.

Obviously, there is a lot more to the story that we don't know (officially) so I'm not saying it wasn't the right move but it definitely sets us back.

Going to be a rough offseason and (probably) a rough season next year.
SAM I Am
QUOTE (Joegrane @ Dec 29 2015, 11:23 PM) *
Laurie had success with Andy so maybe potential GMs and coaches will take him seriously; however, they'll have to be nervous about an owner who dumped his coach/GM so quickly.

Give me a fucking break with this, "the guy only had one year" bullshit. He had THREE years here, and the team got worse each year. He never should have been named GM in the first place.
Zero
Hold on a second! The line to the Ben is getting surprisingly long. Does everyone forget the doom and gloom when Andy gave us a four win season and was fired? A first time NFL coach on any level came in and delivered two 10-6 seasons.

We've been talking about all this for weeks now. The defense is in much better shape and with a solid DC can be above average if not actually pretty good. The offense needs to add at least one good G and probably a T, plus a reliable WR.

With a new system it's not likely they'll go deep into the playoffs next year, but it's not out of the question to win a WC and get there as long as they have a decent off season. Lurie absolutely needs to get his front office in order and hire a coach that will help attract players.

The talent here isn't bad, we are now seeing what many suspected, the coach was the problem. The coach ignored the OL for two years. The coach said average WRs were the way to success. The coach paid a king's ransom for a RB and put him in an offense that didn't suit him. The coach micromanaged his players.

If it had all worked it would have been great. But it didn't work and apparently the players mentally left the building. It's what we saw on the field. The passion was gone, the consistency was gone ... we never knew what we would be watching and that was because of the coach, not the players.
Zero
QUOTE (Joegrane @ Dec 29 2015, 11:23 PM) *
I agree with you. That is why I think this is more likely to send the Eagles into the next Ice Age than send them to the playoffs in the next few years.

Laurie had success with Andy so maybe potential GMs and coaches will take him seriously; however, they'll have to be nervous about an owner who dumped his coach/GM so quickly.

Your two most important players are both free agents, no--Cox and Bradford?

Will we see the big name FAs leave the Eagles over the next few years like we did after Buddy Ryan left?

If Pat Shurmur is the next coach, maybe you are able to retain Bradford. Could this be the reason to let Chip go before the last game?

I think you may be overreacting, Joe. Ice age answered in my previous post, and Lurie has a history of sticking with coaches. He may not be looking for a personnel guy although I'd like to see Gamble come back ... but that would be a yo-yo act that probably won't happen. Cox is under contract next year and Bradford can be tagged if they want to keep him.

Shurmer is an interesting thought though. He learned the offense from Kelly and he's someone Bradford should be comfortable with. I really have no idea what kind of HC he could be, but there's advantages in keeping him around.
Phits
QUOTE (Zero @ Dec 30 2015, 08:03 AM) *
Hold on a second! The line to the Ben is getting surprisingly long. Does everyone forget the doom and gloom when Andy gave us a four win season and was fired? A first time NFL coach on any level came in and delivered two 10-6 seasons.

I don't want a new HC to come in and give us more smoke and mirror 10-6 season(s). If Lurie is really ready to go another route we need to blow it up to smithereens and start over.

QUOTE
If it had all worked it would have been great. But it didn't work and apparently the players mentally left the building. It's what we saw on the field. The passion was gone, the consistency was gone ... we never knew what we would be watching and that was because of the coach, not the players.

Any players that "checked out" during CK's time need to be chucked out. I still believe that culture trumps talent in most situations.
Zero
QUOTE (Phits @ Dec 30 2015, 09:21 AM) *
I don't want a new HC to come in and give us more smoke and mirror 10-6 season(s). If Lurie is really ready to go another route we need to blow it up to smithereens and start over.

Any players that "checked out" during CK's time need to be chucked out. I still believe that culture trumps talent in most situations.

Agreed on smoke and mirrors, but why is that a forgone conclusion of what would happen with a new HC? If the guy uses his players strengths there should be minimal change of personnel.

Talent and culture (character) don't need to be mutually exclusive. If a coach doesn't know how to connect with his players and get them to meld that character and talent, then it's the coach that needs to go. The question is, which was it?
Phits
My concern is that a really good GM or HC will not want to part of a franchise that has had as much turnover in their management as the Iggles have had...in such a short time. The rumor mill is spouting that Roseman has more "pull" in the organization than one would think. If so, it could be threatening to candidates who have great potential.

QUOTE (Zero @ Dec 30 2015, 09:27 AM) *
Agreed on smoke and mirrors, but why is that a forgone conclusion of what would happen with a new HC? If the guy uses his players strengths there should be minimal change of personnel.

Talent and culture (character) don't need to be mutually exclusive. If a coach doesn't know how to connect with his players and get them to meld that character and talent, then it's the coach that needs to go. The question is, which was it?

Zero
QUOTE (Phits @ Dec 30 2015, 09:39 AM) *
My concern is that a really good GM or HC will not want to part of a franchise that has had as much turnover in their management as the Iggles have had...in such a short time. The rumor mill is spouting that Roseman has more "pull" in the organization than one would think. If so, it could be threatening to candidates who have great potential.

Maybe, maybe not. The reports are still coming out. Roseman does concern me, but what we're hearing is either (conspiracy) a Howie Pravda blast or a huge condemnation of Kelly. Check this one out:
QUOTE
"I know there were reports that Chip lost the locker room this season," the ex-Eagles player said. "I can tell you, he never had the support of the team this year. It was a toxic situation from the moment I arrived. Those guys in that locker room almost universally despised him."

The former player's assessment confirms what an agent for an Eagles starting player told NJ Advance Media last month before a Thanksgiving Day loss to the Detroit Lions. The agent said Kelly had lost the team and a player with a minor injury had refused to play hurt for Kelly.

Peters tapped out of Saturday's blowout loss to the Washington Redskins at Lincoln Financial Field, according to multiple reports, because he did not want to risk further injury for a team not heading for the playoffs.
Eyrie
QUOTE (Phits @ Dec 30 2015, 02:39 PM) *
My concern is that a really good GM or HC will not want to part of a franchise that has had as much turnover in their management as the Iggles have had...in such a short time. The rumor mill is spouting that Roseman has more "pull" in the organization than one would think. If so, it could be threatening to candidates who have great potential.

Reid's time here was done, and both of us would have had him out earlier than Lurie.

So the real turnover would be the GM being sacked last year because the head coach demanded all the power, and the head coach then being fired because he fucked up.

You make it sound like we fire and replace both roles every year.
Rick
QUOTE (Zero @ Dec 30 2015, 10:33 AM) *
Maybe, maybe not. The reports are still coming out. Roseman does concern me, but what we're hearing is either (conspiracy) a Howie Pravda blast or a huge condemnation of Kelly. Check this one out:

If it's true the players quit on him then screw the players. I'm sick of hearing of players whining like babies about their coaches. Waaaaah! We practice too hard! Waaaaah! We run too many plays! Waaaaaah!!! It's your FRIGGIN' JOB to play football for whomever the owner of the team puts in charge...PERIOD! This is a function of what's happening in society where nobody is allowed to offend anyone and everyone is always offended.

I am a huge Peters fan but, if it's true he left the game because he didn't want to play, then screw him. Cut him now. Ditto for anyone else who did this.

I believe this is basically what happened in SF and look at how screwed up everything is over there now.

These players get their way in ousting their coach so, if they don't like the next HC I guess they'll do the same.

They get paid very well to play. They need to STFU and play.

I'm sick of this kind of crap.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Dec 30 2015, 08:39 AM) *
My concern is that a really good GM or HC will not want to part of a franchise that has had as much turnover in their management as the Iggles have had...in such a short time. The rumor mill is spouting that Roseman has more "pull" in the organization than one would think. If so, it could be threatening to candidates who have great potential.

If you're a premium HC candidate, do you want to go to Indianapolis with Luck, Tennessee with Mariota and the #1 pick; or come to Philly where we have fired two successful coaches, have a weird front office setup, no clear QB solution and a generally old roster?

I have a real bad feeling we're going to end up with some lame ass retread that will fall into line under Howie.
Phits
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Dec 30 2015, 02:04 PM) *
Reid's time here was done, and both of us would have had him out earlier than Lurie.

So the real turnover would be the GM being sacked last year because the head coach demanded all the power, and the head coach then being fired because he fucked up.

You make it sound like we fire and replace both roles every year.


There can be a myriad of reasons as to why there is this level of turnover, but the successful franchises don't do that. If there was a power struggle between the (former) HC and the (former/current) GM and the owner sided with one of the two sides, only to flip flop a season after...that makes matters worse. This level of instability offers no security to a new coaching candidate.

QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 30 2015, 04:32 PM) *
If you're a premium HC candidate, do you want to go to Indianapolis with Luck, Tennessee with Mariota and the #1 pick; or come to Philly where we have fired two successful coaches, have a weird front office setup, no clear QB solution and a generally old roster?

I have a real bad feeling we're going to end up with some lame ass retread that will fall into line under Howie.

^^This basically summarizes my thoughts with the situation.
Phits
QUOTE (Rick @ Dec 30 2015, 04:00 PM) *
If it's true the players quit on him then screw the players. I'm sick of hearing of players whining like babies about their coaches. Waaaaah! We practice too hard! Waaaaah! We run too many plays! Waaaaaah!!! It's your FRIGGIN' JOB to play football for whomever the owner of the team puts in charge...PERIOD! This is a function of what's happening in society where nobody is allowed to offend anyone and everyone is always offended.

I am a huge Peters fan but, if it's true he left the game because he didn't want to play, then screw him. Cut him now. Ditto for anyone else who did this.

I believe this is basically what happened in SF and look at how screwed up everything is over there now.

These players get their way in ousting their coach so, if they don't like the next HC I guess they'll do the same.

They get paid very well to play. They need to STFU and play.

I'm sick of this kind of crap.

Yep.
Eyrie
Lurie has only had four head coaches in over twenty years (Kotite, Rhodes, Reid, Kelly) so the argument that this is an unstable franchise doesn't hold water. Any candidate is more likely to look at how he backed a successful Reid for years rather than worry that Rhodes and Kelly were shown the door when their methods didn't work. After all, the new guy will believe that his methods will work.

Mcnabbulous' point about the current state of the roster is a valid concern however (and justifies Kelly's firing).
Phits
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Dec 30 2015, 05:36 PM) *
Lurie has only had four head coaches in over twenty years (Kotite, Rhodes, Reid, Kelly) so the argument that this is an unstable franchise doesn't hold water. Any candidate is more likely to look at how he backed a successful Reid for years rather than worry that Rhodes and Kelly were shown the door when their methods didn't work. After all, the new guy will believe that his methods will work.

Mcnabbulous' point about the current state of the roster is a valid concern however (and justifies Kelly's firing).

The common thread with successful teams is stability. The reason they are stable is usually tied to the presence of a franchise QB or the ability to acquire one quickly. Reid was able to acquire one, Rhodes & Kelly weren't. Like Mcnabbulous suggested, if you are a quality HC would you rather go to a team in flux with a lack of stability in their management or a team that has a franchise QB like Tennessee or Indianapolis? This is the same team that got rid of one of the better DC's in the league after 2 seasons because of a lack of patience (and personnel) and replaced him with the offensive line coach. The same team that ousted their previous GM for their HC (with 2 seasons of NFL experience) and then firing him and bringing back the previous GM who remained on the payroll.

There have been a slew of terrible decisions in the last five years by the owner.

Zero
QUOTE (Rick @ Dec 30 2015, 04:00 PM) *
If it's true the players quit on him then screw the players. I'm sick of hearing of players whining like babies about their coaches. Waaaaah! We practice too hard! Waaaaah! We run too many plays! Waaaaaah!!! It's your FRIGGIN' JOB to play football for whomever the owner of the team puts in charge...PERIOD! This is a function of what's happening in society where nobody is allowed to offend anyone and everyone is always offended.

I am a huge Peters fan but, if it's true he left the game because he didn't want to play, then screw him. Cut him now. Ditto for anyone else who did this.

I believe this is basically what happened in SF and look at how screwed up everything is over there now.

These players get their way in ousting their coach so, if they don't like the next HC I guess they'll do the same.

They get paid very well to play. They need to STFU and play.

I'm sick of this kind of crap.

Although I enthusiastically agree with this sentiment, the reality of professional sports doesn't. And, if you want to start dumping players for not doing what the coach tells them, isn't that the same as what Kelly did to DJax and Mathis?
Zero
QUOTE (Phits @ Dec 30 2015, 04:58 PM) *
There can be a myriad of reasons as to why there is this level of turnover, but the successful franchises don't do that. If there was a power struggle between the (former) HC and the (former/current) GM and the owner sided with one of the two sides, only to flip flop a season after...that makes matters worse. This level of instability offers no security to a new coaching candidate.

Phits, I have no idea what you're talking about. Reid was here for 14 years before they hired Kelly. You call that instability?
Zero
QUOTE (Phits @ Dec 30 2015, 06:22 PM) *
The common thread with successful teams is stability. The reason they are stable is usually tied to the presence of a franchise QB or the ability to acquire one quickly. Reid was able to acquire one, Rhodes & Kelly weren't. Like Mcnabbulous suggested, if you are a quality HC would you rather go to a team in flux with a lack of stability in their management or a team that has a franchise QB like Tennessee or Indianapolis? This is the same team that got rid of one of the better DC's in the league after 2 seasons because of a lack of patience (and personnel) and replaced him with the offensive line coach. The same team that ousted their previous GM for their HC (with 2 seasons of NFL experience) and then firing him and bringing back the previous GM who remained on the payroll.

There have been a slew of terrible decisions in the last five years by the owner.

Holy smokes! Reid fired McDermott! How many teams have the stability you're looking for? Historically, I can think of the Steelers and the Packers as the stand outs. Other than that, every team has a period of bumps, some habitually. But I bet the Eagles are generally regarded as a stable organization. Are you calling Tennessee a stable organization?
Phits
QUOTE (Zero @ Dec 30 2015, 07:16 PM) *
Holy smokes! Reid fired McDermott!

Semantics. I am willing to wager that Reid and McD have a better relationship than Lurie/Roseman and McD.

QUOTE
How many teams have the stability you're looking for? Historically, I can think of the Steelers and the Packers as the stand outs.

Yes, and they seem to have the blueprint for NFL management. Continuity, not high turnover. Their ownership does due diligence in the hiring and firing of the figure heads of their respective organizations. You can't tell me that this situation looks reasonable to onlookers.


QUOTE
Other than that, every team has a period of bumps, some habitually.

5 years = 3 HC + 3 GM's
If this was the Giants/Washington/Dallas we would all be laughing at them.



QUOTE
Are you calling Tennessee a stable organization?

No, but they do have a (potential) franchise QB without a long history of injuries. Which is the X factor.
SAM I Am
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Dec 30 2015, 05:36 PM) *
Lurie has only had four head coaches in over twenty years (Kotite, Rhodes, Reid, Kelly) so the argument that this is an unstable franchise doesn't hold water.

BINGO!!!
Joegrane
That is another reason why I think Pat Shurmur has to be one of the leading candidates.

He already has a relationship with the players, especially Bradford whom he coached in Sam's successful first year in St Louis.

He is well known to management since this is his second time in Philly and he already agreed to be here with the strange front office situation.

They could hire a 4-3 defensive coordinator. The Eagles 4-3 D Line would be attractive to a quality coordinator.

Cox and Logan at DT with Thorton and Allen would be a well above average group.

At DE would be B Graham but now they would be able to resign V Curry as a 4-3 end! If they keep the 3-4 they almost certainly will loose Curry.

I suppose former 1st rounder M Smith would be a 4-3 DE not a MLB--if he even makes the team. Hopefully 4-3 DE would be a more natural position for him and help him to salvage his career.

In this way they would not have to blow up the team.

They would need help at several positions:

O Line. OT in 1st round + FA guard + mid round G.

WR. $ from Coop & Austin plus couple of mil might get an okay #2 WR.

MLB. They would need to sign or draft ( 3rd Round?) a 4-3 MLB. D Ryans has the size to play MLB but does he have anything left in the tank?

Maybe they could temporarily fill-in useful guys who were strangely banished by Chip-- Matthis, Boykin.

I'm not suggesting that the result would be a sure playoff team next year, but in the mediocre NFC East they'd at least be in the conversation. That is much more attractive to me than a rebuild.


QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 30 2015, 04:32 PM) *
If you're a premium HC candidate, do you want to go to Indianapolis with Luck, Tennessee with Mariota and the #1 pick; or come to Philly where we have fired two successful coaches, have a weird front office setup, no clear QB solution and a generally old roster?

I have a real bad feeling we're going to end up with some lame ass retread that will fall into line under Howie.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Phits @ Dec 30 2015, 07:51 PM) *
5 years = 3 HC + 3 GM's
If this was the Giants/Washington/Dallas we would all be laughing at them.


Are you talking about the Eagles? 3 coaches in the last 20 years.....I would say that is stability.....
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Dec 30 2015, 11:41 PM) *
Are you talking about the Eagles? 3 coaches in the last 20 years.....I would say that is stability.....

We are about to have our 3rd coach in 4 years. And GM is in the same boat. I think that's the point he's making.
The Franchise
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 30 2015, 05:32 PM) *
come to Philly where we have fired two successful coaches


Ah yes, Andy the King of the Regular Season kept things interesting. Pray tell, what have Chip's successes been?
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (The Franchise @ Dec 31 2015, 12:41 AM) *
Ah yes, Andy the King of the Regular Season kept things interesting. Pray tell, what have Chip's successes been?

26-21 record in the 3 years following taking over a 4-12 team.

The unfortunate reality is that Chip had too much success too quickly. It caused unrealistic expectations in 2014 and subsequently led to us making shortsighted personnel decisions.

I don't think any other coach in football wins 26 games over the past 3 years with the roster Chip inherited. I also get that the situation had gotten so toxic that we needed to start over.

It still doesn't make our organization look stable.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 31 2015, 12:42 AM) *
We are about to have our 3rd coach in 4 years. And GM is in the same boat. I think that's the point he's making.


It is a silly point when one of those 3 coaches was here for 14 years
Reality Fan
QUOTE (The Franchise @ Dec 31 2015, 01:41 AM) *
Ah yes, Andy the King of the Regular Season kept things interesting. Pray tell, what have Chip's successes been?


hahahaha...I love guys like you....Chuck Knoll was 12-30 to start his career...Bill Belichick was 20-28 his first 3 years..Coughlin was 24-24..(granted he started a franchise)...Mike McCarthy was 6-10 in his 3rd year...John Fox was 25-23 (7-9 in year 3)...Pete Caroll was 25-23...There is a learning curve.....Bellichick certainly went through one...

Kelly made plenty of mistakes......and maybe he deserved to be fired for things we are not privy to....but it always irks me when someone bitterly critiques someone successful in such a foolish manner....are you smart enough to get a job making 6 million dollars a year?...if not then take it easy on calling the guy names....it is fine to acknowledge that he did not do an adequate job hear and should have done things differently but it obvious the guy is a bright offensive mind....he apparently needs work on his people skills.....not uncommon for someone like him....trust me...my brother makes 7 figures and his people skills are horrendous...
Rick
QUOTE (Zero @ Dec 30 2015, 07:08 PM) *
Although I enthusiastically agree with this sentiment, the reality of professional sports doesn't. And, if you want to start dumping players for not doing what the coach tells them, isn't that the same as what Kelly did to DJax and Mathis?

No. They dumped Jackson because, well, who the hell knows. First it was gang ties (BS), then it was he was late to meetings and wasn't good guy. He played and played well. That's what matters.

Mathis was being a bitch (IMO).

And your first statement is what I'm saying. Everyone accepts this type of behavior from professional sports on down to grade school. It's destroying things as we know them.
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