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nephillymike
1. Tell Chip he has to fire Billy Davis.

If he refuses, fire Chip

2. Tell Chip that he is removed from his GM duties.

If he refuses, fire Chip

3. Or do we just remove the hassle and skip right to #3 and, Fire Chip?


I think as an offensive coach, his system has a chance to work, although it is fading badly, I am not sold that his system won't work in the NFL. I'm not a proponent of the time of possession concern that almost everyone else is so I'm OK with that, with the given that the better your O and D is, the more TOP will turn around. I think he can coach offense

This team is much worse than the team we finished with in 2013 and it is because of Chip. After saying he didn't need personnel control, he seized it behind the scenes, made ill-advised decisions, in seeming haste ate times, and a combination of departures, free agents signed and draft choices, this team is significantly below average in talent, with limited draft options and significant cap implications to clean it up.

What worries me most about him are:

#1 He needs to be able to determine what NFL players fit his scheme and which ones on the team are important to it and make sure they play here. For him to look at tape of guys like Murray and Maxwell and determine they are good fits and look at Mathis, and Maclin and determine they aren't is puzzling. The easiest thing to do should be to look at NFL tape and determine who would fit well in your system. His draft record is poor also, but I think draft picks are more crap shoots than most.

#2 The bloom is off the rose. Chip's culture has been exposed and without the winning, players will not comply. That's a tough road to travel back from. There was a lot of buy in by the players with no reward. I don't know if he'll ever get the locker room back to his liking or to our success.

Can he overcome the above two to get us on the right track again?

I don't think he can, however, there enough of a chance that I give him another year with the Davis and GM provisions above.

Anyone?
mcnabbulous
I give him another year at GM, but Davis needs to go.

My biggest concern right now is Agholor. We need him to turn into a player next year or we are screwed again at WR. Finding an adequate RB won't be too difficult.

I think Chip has done a good job on the defensive side of the ball from a personnel perspective. His coaching choice sucks though.
The Franchise
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Dec 27 2015, 03:29 PM) *
1. Tell Chip he has to fire Billy Davis.

If he refuses, fire Chip

2. Tell Chip that he is removed from his GM duties.

If he refuses, fire Chip

3. Or do we just remove the hassle and skip right to #3 and, Fire Chip?


I just imagine Howie Roseman constantly laughing his ass off. He must send Lurie about 50 passive-aggressive text messages a game.

"Oohh, it's a shame we didn't execute on that play."

"4th and 1 with Matthews, a bold call, I expected it to work."

"Say, I've been watching video of this WR from Michigan State, do you think Chip will allow us to draft him?"

Chip is in way over his head, and the product he has put on the field shows that. Can his system work with the right personnel? I guess. But his in-game management has proven to be inadequate, and that matters when you play good teams, as he has a track record of not being able to win big games. It was a good and exciting hire and worth the risk, but his time is up as far as I'm concerned. Send him back to college, where he'll score 40+ points per game beating up on the Beavers and Appalachian State and we'll all be much happier.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Dec 27 2015, 03:29 PM) *
1. Tell Chip he has to fire Billy Davis.

If he refuses, fire Chip

2. Tell Chip that he is removed from his GM duties.

If he refuses, fire Chip

3. Or do we just remove the hassle and skip right to #3 and, Fire Chip?



My take.....

I actually agree completely with number 1....a year too late to be honest but he needs to be killed...not just fired...

I think 2 and 3 go together.....an owner who gives a GM 1 year to change things before firing him is as ridiculous as the fan who call for the same....

The question becomes whether you want to become Cleveland or Jacksonville.
Ask yourself this......what GM is going to come into a situation where the last GM had 1 year? Regrdless of whether it is a coach...Kelly succeeds Roseman who came to power in a palace coup himself.....Lurie is not dumb and he values perception.

Firing Kelly outright is also a little silly after his first losing season.....lets face it...catching the ball is not coaching....penalties may be a discipline issue but his offense clearly works...the question is whether he learns from his mistakes and adapts....I have no doubt he gets another year at both jobs.

P.S. Go Chiefs!!!!
Phits
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Dec 27 2015, 04:54 PM) *
My take.....

I actually agree completely with number 1....a year too late to be honest but he needs to be killed...not just fired...

I think 2 and 3 go together.....an owner who gives a GM 1 year to change things before firing him is as ridiculous as the fan who call for the same....

The question becomes whether you want to become Cleveland or Jacksonville.
Ask yourself this......what GM is going to come into a situation where the last GM had 1 year? Regrdless of whether it is a coach...Kelly succeeds Roseman who came to power in a palace coup himself.....Lurie is not dumb and he values perception.

Firing Kelly outright is also a little silly after his first losing season.....lets face it...catching the ball is not coaching....penalties may be a discipline issue but his offense clearly works...the question is whether he learns from his mistakes and adapts....I have no doubt he gets another year at both jobs.

Well said. cheers.gif

QUOTE
P.S. Go Chiefs!!!!

Fcuk KC! They can ka.gif
Eyrie
I agree with Mikey that Kelly's offense can work, but it will only work with the right players. That starts with a functional OL, then a decent QB, receivers that can catch and RBs that fit the scheme.

I agree with Mikey about TOP, because it is the defence's job to ensure that the opposition drives are stopped early.

I agree with Mikey that Davis has to be fired.

I agree with Mikey that we need a GM to offer a different opinion. The new guy coming in wouldn't be worried about his predecessor only getting one year, because his predecessor was the head coach who couldn't do both jobs and so won't get the GM job again. Indeed, if the head coach turns in another season like this one then the new GM can look forward to hiring his successor for 2017.

If I'm agreeing with Mikey so often, can I have an Axis membership card please?
nephillymike
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Dec 27 2015, 06:13 PM) *
I agree with Mikey that Kelly's offense can work, but it will only work with the right players. That starts with a functional OL, then a decent QB, receivers that can catch and RBs that fit the scheme.

I agree with Mikey about TOP, because it is the defence's job to ensure that the opposition drives are stopped early.

I agree with Mikey that Davis has to be fired.

I agree with Mikey that we need a GM to offer a different opinion. The new guy coming in wouldn't be worried about his predecessor only getting one year, because his predecessor was the head coach who couldn't do both jobs and so won't get the GM job again. Indeed, if the head coach turns in another season like this one then the new GM can look forward to hiring his successor for 2017.

If I'm agreeing with Mikey so often, can I have an Axis membership card please?


You wouldn't pass the spelling test to get in!
Zero
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Dec 27 2015, 03:29 PM) *
1. Tell Chip he has to fire Billy Davis.

If he refuses, fire Chip

2. Tell Chip that he is removed from his GM duties.

If he refuses, fire Chip

3. Or do we just remove the hassle and skip right to #3 and, Fire Chip?

I think you're going in the right direction but not in the right way. I don't think you want the owner to start "interfering" but you want the HC/GM and the owner to be on the same page. Chip's smart enough to to figure out the intent of that discussion and it ends up the same place. With what this team went through status quo isn't getting you where you want to be. Kelly's a good salesman though, so don't be surprised if he bets the house on things being different next year and explains how that will be very convincingly.

Chip has to explain why he paid the money he did for Murray and why it hasn't worked. He'll have to describe how he will make it work in 2016. He has to explain why he ignored obvious holes on the OL for two years then traded for a QB coming off of two ACLs. He has to have a good reason why four pro bowl players are playing for other teams and he didn't come close to replacing their production. He'll need to offer a reasonable excuse for breaking the bank on a CB who isn't played to his strengths and why he traded a record breaking RB for a LB who has been unable to prove he can play. He should be able to explain why the 2015 Eagles are different from the 2011 dream team.
bwc2112
Fire Davis
Find Decent GM and hire (not Chip)
Keep Chip to" COACH" with a say in said above (limited)
Build a team that is not as embarrassing as this one was.
If that doesn't happen we should hire Jerry Jones and jump off a cliff.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Dec 27 2015, 06:13 PM) *
I agree with Mikey that Kelly's offense can work, but it will only work with the right players. That starts with a functional OL, then a decent QB, receivers that can catch and RBs that fit the scheme.

I agree with Mikey about TOP, because it is the defence's job to ensure that the opposition drives are stopped early.

I agree with Mikey that Davis has to be fired.

I agree with Mikey that we need a GM to offer a different opinion. The new guy coming in wouldn't be worried about his predecessor only getting one year, because his predecessor was the head coach who couldn't do both jobs and so won't get the GM job again. Indeed, if the head coach turns in another season like this one then the new GM can look forward to hiring his successor for 2017.

If I'm agreeing with Mikey so often, can I have an Axis membership card please?


The largest problem of the entire point you make is Kelly taking the hiring of a GM sitting down.....My guess is that he would have a hard time taking that which means you start from ground zero with a new GM and a new coach...Kelly has options.....he can make as much going back to college or another NFL destination as he can here.

The question becomes what conversations did he have with Lurie prior to the season. Did he promise him the moon or did he tell him this was a rebuilding year and they were going to take their lumps.....not something they would publicize and not something we will ever know but again, Lurie is not dumb.....he had to ask the question....when Chip made all of his personnel moves...he had to ask about Mathis....about Maclin......about Cole...about Herremans...about Murray. Neither of these guys are dumb. Kelly may be arrogant but he is not dumb. We as fans (myself included)looked at them as contenders after the preseason but even then they did not sign or attempt to sign Bradford to an extension.(and reports to the contrary have been refuted by Bradford himself) I am not saying that it happened but there are a lot of dots out there that are easily connected. If that is the case than any questions about Kelly's security are moot. The problem we have in Philly is that there are few beat writers who have a pulse on the team....Reuben Frank is the primary guy and he is more concerned about being buddies with the players and starting rumors and then later acting indignant that someone would report those rumors. He still misses kissing McCoy's jock. David Murphy has started to write about the Eagles so that is a plus for us fans.

The bottom line is that we just don't know.
Eyrie
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Dec 28 2015, 04:56 AM) *
The largest problem of the entire point you make is Kelly taking the hiring of a GM sitting down.....My guess is that he would have a hard time taking that which means you start from ground zero with a new GM and a new coach...Kelly has options.....he can make as much going back to college or another NFL destination as he can here.

We've both made that point before, but it does bear repeating.

The way round it may be to appoint an experienced GM as Kelly's "advisor" but on the understanding that Kelly listens to the new man and doesn't ignore him. Of course, such an arrangement would work only if everyone buys into it, which means Kelly accepting that he can't do both jobs and that will probably be the stumbling block.
Eyrie
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Dec 27 2015, 11:20 PM) *
You wouldn't pass the spelling test to get in!

Damn sad.gif
Zero
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Dec 27 2015, 11:56 PM) *
The bottom line is that we just don't know.

This is the biggest truth and it's not restricted to sports. The bigger problem is that we all know we know what we don't know. biggrin.gif
Zero
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Dec 28 2015, 06:23 AM) *
We've both made that point before, but it does bear repeating.

The way round it may be to appoint an experienced GM as Kelly's "advisor" but on the understanding that Kelly listens to the new man and doesn't ignore him. Of course, such an arrangement would work only if everyone buys into it, which means Kelly accepting that he can't do both jobs and that will probably be the stumbling block.

No experienced GM who could help will take a job as an advisor - maybe if it's a Pat Gillick type deal. Bill Polian?
SAM I Am
Fire both Chip the Head Coach, and Chip the GM next Monday morning.
make_it_rain
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 27 2015, 05:17 PM) *
I give him another year at GM, but Davis needs to go.


I disagree. I think we've seen all we need to see from Chip the GM. Chip the GMs ineptitude undermines everything he wants to do as a coach. Everyone talks about the limited number of plays, how its designed to get receivers open, etc, but its all predicated on not having a bunch of 3 and 4 WRs masquerading as number ones...e.g actually having talent to execute, which we do not.

I mean, just go through every personnel move hes made (or not made) to nuke the team.... Shady for Kiko, The Agholor pick, letting Maclin walk, Cutting Desean, not addressing the line, etc... seems pretty clear he's in over his head, no?

Im not crazy about Davis at all. Go ahead and fire him if you want, but at the end of the day you still have piles of clothing like Kiko Alonso and EJ Biggers running around out there, and all the george lucas magic in the world won't turn them into serviceable players. You might be able to bring in someone who hides their (vast) shortcomings, but the much more pressing issue is the players (or lack thereof) on defense, which falls on the GM.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (make_it_rain @ Dec 28 2015, 08:57 AM) *
I disagree. I think we've seen all we need to see from Chip the GM. Chip the GMs ineptitude undermines everything he wants to do as a coach. Everyone talks about the limited number of plays, how its designed to get receivers open, etc, but its all predicated on not having a bunch of 3 and 4 WRs masquerading as number ones...e.g actually having talent to execute, which we do not.

Our receivers were still getting open. The problems seemed to come to a head after that part.

QUOTE
I mean, just go through every personnel move hes made (or not made) to nuke the team....

Sure thing.

QUOTE
Shady for Kiko

Did Shady have some balls out year that I missed? He was routinely injured. Kiko wasn't good, I don't see how having a regularly injured RB makes our team dramatically better.

QUOTE
The Agholor pick

This one has me really concerned. Agholor needs to step up big time in year two. Still not sure why we are writing off a rookie.

QUOTE
letting Maclin walk

This simply wasn't the case. He did almost everything he could to reasonably retain Mac.

QUOTE
Cutting Desean

I had problems with this one, but ultimately he didn't like the guy. I can't speak to the rationale for that.

QUOTE
not addressing the line

For whatever reason, we had major regression from two of our best lineman this year. That contributed to our issues up front as much as the personnel decisions at guard.

QUOTE
seems pretty clear he's in over his head, no?

I am vocally opposed to head coaches being GM, but I like Chip the coach. I don't see how things end well if we strip him of personnel power after one year. I think we need one more year to see his bigger picture.

QUOTE
Im not crazy about Davis at all. Go ahead and fire him if you want, but at the end of the day you still have piles of clothing like Kiko Alonso and EJ Biggers running around out there, and all the george lucas magic in the world won't turn them into serviceable players. You might be able to bring in someone who hides their (vast) shortcomings, but the much more pressing issue is the players (or lack thereof) on defense, which falls on the GM.

Our defensive talent is the best it's been in years (07/08ish). Do you really think we performed to that level?
make_it_rain
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 28 2015, 11:12 AM) *
Did Shady have some balls out year that I missed? He was routinely injured. Kiko wasn't good, I don't see how having a regularly injured RB makes our team dramatically better.


Maybe not dramatically better, but still better, and unquestionably a better fit in the offense than Murray. Kiko isnt just "not good", he's useless. Even with the inuries, Mccoy still got ~900 yards, and nearly 300 more than our leading rusher who was just demoted to 4th string effectively. All I'm saying is who is the team better off with A. Mccoy or B. Murray and Kiko ?

QUOTE
This one has me really concerned. Agholor needs to step up big time in year two. Still not sure why we are writing off a rookie.


Fair enough. I'll give you that one. He has been putrid in year on though.

QUOTE
This simply wasn't the case. He did almost everything he could to reasonably retain Mac.


I mean I've read so much about this I'm not really sure what I believe. Maclin said he never got a call back, etc. It seemed pretty clear he wanted to stay though, and Chip decided he did not want to overpay.


QUOTE
I am vocally opposed to head coaches being GM, but I like Chip the coach. I don't see how things end well if we strip him of personnel power after one year. I think we need one more year to see his bigger picture.


I agree, I think if we take the GM title Chip the Coach is gone. I detest Chip the GM, but am not sure if its worth separating the two if it means Chip the Coach leaves. The unfortunate reality is there really isnt a scenario where you can just cleanly revoke personnel power from the guy, as much as I would like to see that happen.

QUOTE
Our defensive talent is the best it's been in years (07/08ish). Do you really think we performed to that level?


Yeah, but this speaks more to how inept the defense has been from 2009-14 as opposed to how good it has been in 2015. We have a good to very good defensive line, good safeties, mediocre to below average corners, decent outside linebackers and absolutely pathetic inside linebackers, save for Hicks when he returns from injury and maybe Kendricks, although he took a huge step back at the end of the season. That said, its not like this is a top 10 defense that simply isn't being coached up to its potential.
Phits
QUOTE (Zero @ Dec 28 2015, 06:35 AM) *
This is the biggest truth and it's not restricted to sports. The bigger problem is that we all know we know what we don't know. biggrin.gif

Agreed. We all know that we don't know what we think we know, because those in the know aren't likely to reveal what they know.
Zero
QUOTE (make_it_rain @ Dec 28 2015, 10:41 AM) *
... absolutely pathetic inside linebackers, save for Hicks when he returns from injury and maybe Kendricks, although he took a huge step back at the end of the season.

I don't think this is fair. Agreed on Hicks so far, but Hendricks was very good last year. Meco was kept as a mentor and a leader, injuries and the disappointing play of Alonso kept him on the field too much this year. Alonso was coming off a serious knee injury and he reinjured it. It's not a slam dunk that he's a bust. I'm still putting a lot of the blame on Davis, mostly because of the studs we have on the DL and how erratic their play was.
Phits
QUOTE (make_it_rain @ Dec 28 2015, 10:41 AM) *
Maybe not dramatically better, but still better, and unquestionably a better fit in the offense than Murray. Kiko isnt just "not good", he's useless. Even with the inuries, Mccoy still got ~900 yards, and nearly 300 more than our leading rusher who was just demoted to 4th string effectively. All I'm saying is who is the team better off with A. Mccoy or B. Murray and Kiko ?

The initial plan wasn't to bring in a single back to replace Shady's production. They tried to bring in a combination of Gore/Mathews. When Gore faked us out, Chip went with a second option. He overpaid for a rival team's (star) RB. Basically he did to Dallas what KC did to us. I never liked the move. I think that productive skill players offer the same benefit as 'star players'. That said, it was clear that the plan was to use 2 backs in our offense. Unfortunately, Murray failed to live up to expectations and showed to be much worse than anybody would have predicted.

McCoy in this offense would have offered no benefit. He would have been a malcontent and aided to any dissension in the locker room.

QUOTE
I mean I've read so much about this I'm not really sure what I believe. Maclin said he never got a call back, etc. It seemed pretty clear he wanted to stay though, and Chip decided he did not want to overpay.

Maclin never said he didn't get a call back, a 'family friend' (Jeff Parres) did. He (Jeff Parres) suggested that the Iggles didn't put up enough fight to keep Maclin.

And then there's this:
That Sunday, while Maclin was on the golf course, the Eagles called and countered by shifting money from year three of their offer to year two — which contrary to Kelly and published reports made it close enough to the same deal Maclin was offered with the Chiefs that Maclin was ready to stay.

As they stood on the 16th tee, Maclin’s initial thought was just that.

Then Reid called again.

And 10 minutes later Maclin was Kansas City-bound.


Linc

QUOTE
Yeah, but this speaks more to how inept the defense has been from 2009-14 as opposed to how good it has been in 2015. We have a good to very good defensive line, good safeties, mediocre to below average corners, decent outside linebackers and absolutely pathetic inside linebackers, save for Hicks when he returns from injury and maybe Kendricks, although he took a huge step back at the end of the season.

They focussed on the D in the off-season and shored up the talent. There was more focus on the defensive side of things than we have seen in years (particularly at LB). With Hicks and Cox we have (star) feature players in the front 7 to build around.

QUOTE
That said, its not like this is a top 10 defense that simply isn't being coached up to its potential.

Many disagree with the sentiment (me included). If this group were properly coached it would certainly be a top 10 defense.
SLOiggles
The problem I've had all along with the DeMarco Murray signing wasn't so much that they signed HIM, but rather they didn't use the money used to sign him to keep Maclin or upgrade along the O-line.

I still go back to the decision of Frank Gore spurring the Eagles to play in Indy. The pie in the face of Chip Kelly the GM had to be wiped away ASAP and in a big way. So what better way than to get the prized RB on the market? For some of that, I think (read: I hope) Chip Kelly learned his lesson between recruiting pro athletes and college athletes.

As to the what should be done: Billy Davis should be fired before he gets to walk past the sidelines at the conclusion of the Giants game.

Chip and Lurie should meet and outline the situation and how much lee-way he gets with this "rebuild". I don't think, as others have mentioned, that you can remove Chip Kelly the GM after one season on the job. Likewise, I don't think you can remove him from the head coaching job after he had his first losing season but could still finish just a game out of first place.

I'd keep Chip the GM and the coach on a year-to-year basis starting next season. In doing so, I'd find a way to re-sign Bradford for a team friendly deal that can be nixed in the event Kelly bolts for anywhere else.

The underlying problem is going to be the players. DeMarco Murray, LeSean McCoy, DeSean Jackson....these are stars in the NFL and they have a lot of tout with the other players in the league. Remove our personal perception of these guys for a second. Having players vocally discrediting the coach could have a ripple-effect towards prospective free agents. If any part of the Jason Peters' story of him taking himself out of the game has truth to it, now you have players that don't want to give it their all for the team.

PhillySteaks
How about get rid of both gentleman Billy Davis and chipper?. .unfortunately, lurie doesn't have the guts to, and he would be admitting a mistake if he did...

So expect more of the same garbage next yr....
Eyrie
QUOTE (Zero @ Dec 28 2015, 11:35 AM) *
This is the biggest truth and it's not restricted to sports. The bigger problem is that we all know we know what we don't know. biggrin.gif

What worries me isn't that we know what we don't know, but that those who actually make the decisions don't know what they think they know.

QUOTE (Zero @ Dec 28 2015, 11:39 AM) *
No experienced GM who could help will take a job as an advisor - maybe if it's a Pat Gillick type deal. Bill Polian?

No idea who Pat Gillick is, but having Bill Polian as the advisor would be ideal. He's too old to want a full time job, so Kelly wouldn't feel threatened, but knowledgeable and respected enough that Kelly would think twice if Polian raised doubts about a course of action.

SAM I Am
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Dec 28 2015, 05:23 PM) *
What worries me isn't that we know what we don't know, but that those who actually make the decisions don't know what they think they know.


No idea who Pat Gillick is, but having Bill Polian as the advisor would be ideal. He's too old to want a full time job, so Kelly wouldn't feel threatened, but knowledgeable and respected enough that Kelly would think twice if Polian raised doubts about a course of action.

Pat Gillick is the president of the Philadelphia Phillies baseball team. I'm surprised you didn't know that.

Anyway, that just goes to show you how desperate we are. Not only does he have plenty of professional sports (baseball) experience as an executive, we could probably also line him up at wide receiver. He is 6'1", 185 lbs. The only drawback might be that he is 79 years old. But he has great hands from what I have been hearing.
The Franchise
QUOTE (PhillySteaks @ Dec 28 2015, 03:18 PM) *
How about get rid of both gentleman Billy Davis and chipper?


cheers.gif
Zero
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Dec 28 2015, 05:23 PM) *
What worries me isn't that we know what we don't know, but that those who actually make the decisions don't know what they think they know.


No idea who Pat Gillick is, but having Bill Polian as the advisor would be ideal. He's too old to want a full time job, so Kelly wouldn't feel threatened, but knowledgeable and respected enough that Kelly would think twice if Polian raised doubts about a course of action.

Gillick is a baseball HOF GM and served as sort of a mentor/advisor for Ruben Amaro when Ruben first took over as GM of the Phillies. Gillick was credited with putting together the final pieces of the Phillies team that won the World Series in '08. Before working for the Phillies he was GM of the Toronto Blue Jays and took them to two World Series wins.

So, the point is the mentor part. I have no idea if Polian wants a job either as GM or as a team executive who would help a rookie GM learn the personnel business of the NFL. His son was on the rumor list to work with Kelly before Marynowitz was hired, but he hasn't had a ton of success so far. Apparently the old man would consider consulting.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (PhillySteaks @ Dec 28 2015, 03:18 PM) *
How about get rid of both gentleman Billy Davis and chipper?. .unfortunately, lurie doesn't have the guts to, and he would be admitting a mistake if he did...

So expect more of the same garbage next yr....


I love idiotic statements like these......it is not about admitting a mistake...he has fired coaches before....it is about establishing continuity and allowing a process to work before trashing it....any person with a clue does not expect changes to take effect in year 1......many of us were pie-eyed in that regard but when you look at it from 10,000 feet you realize that a rebuild takes time......there are holes to be filled but not as many as some think...a new defensive coordinator is first and then a WR and some OL.....after that it is just some depth....this is not a bad team...
Eyrie
QUOTE (SAM I Am @ Dec 28 2015, 11:42 PM) *
Pat Gillick is the president of the Philadelphia Phillies baseball team. I'm surprised you didn't know that.

Anyway, that just goes to show you how desperate we are. Not only does he have plenty of professional sports (baseball) experience as an executive, we could probably also line him up at wide receiver. He is 6'1", 185 lbs. The only drawback might be that he is 79 years old. But he has great hands from what I have been hearing.

QUOTE (Zero @ Dec 29 2015, 02:23 AM) *
Gillick is a baseball HOF GM and served as sort of a mentor/advisor for Ruben Amaro when Ruben first took over as GM of the Phillies. Gillick was credited with putting together the final pieces of the Phillies team that won the World Series in '08. Before working for the Phillies he was GM of the Toronto Blue Jays and took them to two World Series wins.

So, the point is the mentor part. I have no idea if Polian wants a job either as GM or as a team executive who would help a rookie GM learn the personnel business of the NFL. His son was on the rumor list to work with Kelly before Marynowitz was hired, but he hasn't had a ton of success so far. Apparently the old man would consider consulting.

Thanks both - being Scottish and having no interest in baseball meant the reference went over my head.

QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Dec 29 2015, 03:59 AM) *
I love idiotic statements like these......it is not about admitting a mistake...he has fired coaches before....it is about establishing continuity and allowing a process to work before trashing it....any person with a clue does not expect changes to take effect in year 1......many of us were pie-eyed in that regard but when you look at it from 10,000 feet you realize that a rebuild takes time......there are holes to be filled but not as many as some think...a new defensive coordinator is first and then a WR and some OL.....after that it is just some depth....this is not a bad team...

You'd put WR ahead of OL in our offseason needs?

Like you I'd start with a new defensive co-ordinator, but then I'd focus on the OL before OLB and WR. We need a dominant pass rusher every bit as much as a reliable receiver.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Dec 29 2015, 05:49 AM) *
Thanks both - being Scottish and having no interest in baseball meant the reference went over my head.


You'd put WR ahead of OL in our offseason needs?

Like you I'd start with a new defensive co-ordinator, but then I'd focus on the OL before OLB and WR. We need a dominant pass rusher every bit as much as a reliable receiver.



I do.....Barbre was decent to good.....a good WR would change the coverage dynamics this offense faces....

Some of it is scheme as well......they need to have audibles....I can't believe an NFL offense does not have audibles....

A new DC changes everything that side......they have the talent but their defensive scheme is a jumbled mess of puke and wastes the talent they have.....
mcnabbulous
I also think WR is more of a need than OL right now (although I have to imagine that we'll be replacing JP at tackle this year, so that changes things).

With that said, I don't know how we can reasonably allocate more draft pick resources at the position. In the past two years, we've spent a 1, 2 and 3 on the position. Thinking we're going to get an impact player at that position in the draft is unlikely, but we'd also probably have to spend another 1 to do so.

I'm not sure what the FA situation looks like, but that seems like the only option to me. In reality, I think we just need to count on Agholor stepping up.

You can also make a pretty strong argument that the two worst WR corps in football are going to be the #1 seeds in both divisions.
BirdsWinBaby
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 29 2015, 03:32 PM) *
I also think WR is more of a need than OL right now (although I have to imagine that we'll be replacing JP at tackle this year, so that changes things).

With that said, I don't know how we can reasonably allocate more draft pick resources at the position. In the past two years, we've spent a 1, 2 and 3 on the position. Thinking we're going to get an impact player at that position in the draft is unlikely, but we'd also probably have to spend another 1 to do so.

I'm not sure what the FA situation looks like, but that seems like the only option to me. In reality, I think we just need to count on Agholor stepping up.

You can also make a pretty strong argument that the two worst WR corps in football are going to be the #1 seeds in both divisions.


If you believe in being patient with Chip and his rebuild/system/GM/whatever...then that would have to include his WRs...given the resources stated above spent at WR, if it is going to work it will need time, if it's not going to work then why be confident in Chip finding the proper talent this time ?

The FA field is once again filled with a bunch of guys. Couple guys of recent note Rueben Randle, Brandon Tate, Alshon Jeffery, etc,... I tried to compare a couple lists and I likely missed somebody but the only FA WR in the top 30 in yds is Boldin. Even at his age he is likely better than what Chip has now but do you give him a contract? At his age is he (or any of the other decent FAs) even willing to play in Chip's system? 'What do you mean every 23 seconds?'

Will wait and see how it plays out
BirdsWinBaby
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Dec 28 2015, 06:23 PM) *
having Bill Polian as the advisor would be ideal. He's too old to want a full time job, so Kelly wouldn't feel threatened


Kelly would be threatened by Polian and I wouldn't blame him. Polian is in the NFL HOF. At his age and with his resume he has forgotten more about NFL winning and losing, building teams and getting to the Super Bowl than Kelly will learn in the next 20years

Right now Lurie only has Chip to turn to when he has questions about Chip. Howie is still there but he can't trump Chip when it comes to football. It would be easy for Lurie to disregard Howie if Chip starts fast talking

If Polian is in the building? He speaks, it's NFL gospel. Yes he is far too old and too accomplished to soil his hands with Lurie's messes......but if Chip screws up, and Polian has Lurie's ear? Yea no doubt that would pose a threat.....not sure Chip would stay if it was proposed
Eyrie
QUOTE (BirdsWinBaby @ Dec 29 2015, 09:01 PM) *
Kelly would be threatened by Polian and I wouldn't blame him. Polian is in the NFL HOF. At his age and with his resume he has forgotten more about NFL winning and losing, building teams and getting to the Super Bowl than Kelly will learn in the next 20years

Right now Lurie only has Chip to turn to when he has questions about Chip. Howie is still there but he can't trump Chip when it comes to football. It would be easy for Lurie to disregard Howie if Chip starts fast talking

If Polian is in the building? He speaks, it's NFL gospel. Yes he is far too old and too accomplished to soil his hands with Lurie's messes......but if Chip screws up, and Polian has Lurie's ear? Yea no doubt that would pose a threat.....not sure Chip would stay if it was proposed

So Kelly wouldn't be threatened by Polian trying to undermine him in favour of a hand picked replacement but only by Polian expecting him to explain his moves rather than bamboozle his way through questions.

If Kelly feels that insecure then he can bolt. Besides, didn't Kelly build his career on picking other coaches brains?
mcnabbulous
Polian was so bad in Indianapolis. He's way, way past his prime.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 29 2015, 06:05 PM) *
Polian was so bad in Indianapolis. He's way, way past his prime.

Yep. The NFL has passed Polian by. He was a good GM in his hey day, but this isn't that NFL any longer. It's not just players, executives (GM's, VP's etc..) have a shelf life too.
BirdsWinBaby
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Dec 29 2015, 07:01 PM) *
So Kelly wouldn't be threatened by Polian trying to undermine him in favour of a hand picked replacement but only by Polian expecting him to explain his moves rather than bamboozle his way through questions.

If Kelly feels that insecure then he can bolt. Besides, didn't Kelly build his career on picking other coaches brains?


no ..no. its not about making him explain. I'm saying Polian wont be up for the job but if he saw enough 'missteps' and decided to bend Lurie's ear about "_____ who has really impressed me?" an owner would be hard pressed to disregard that counsel because Chip (with nothing to show) is talking fast in circles.

Kelly built his career winning in college. picking brains is nice but unless you can show me on paper that you used that 'brain picking' to build a top-tier NFL franchise? it doesn't mean much.

Polian can do that....Chip is coming off a year where it didn't happen. again. Polian can speak to that as well. with FOUR SB losses.

can Chip bend to such an influence (I say influence and not boss) as Polian? after living the life of a college GOD, where even your AD is beholden to your will? where recruits flock to your program? after asserting your will (and winning vs Howie) at the NFL level and wielding the same power and influence on an NFL franchise just like you did in college?

Kelly is used to being in charge of it all. it happens because he says so....Polian trumps all that college success and when year after year your NFL season ends with 'wump, wump, wahhhh?' Polian trumps that too.

can you honestly blame Chip for KNOWING how inferior he is at the feet of Polian? I wouldnt
nephillymike
At least one of my clients listened to my proposal !!

As long as you get the big guy to go along, it doesn't matter what you guys think!! blah.gif
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