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nephillymike
got tied up today at work so didn't hear much of this but

Apparently Murray bypassed Chip and went to Lurie about lack of playing time.

Also, it was noted by others (I didn't notice this), that on Murray's last two carries while we were trying to milk the clock, he:

-gained 19 or so yards and voluntarily went out of bounds.
-gained 3 yards and voluntarily went out of bounds

-didn't go back in the game and involuntarily watched RB's who stayed in bounds run the rest of the game.

Good!
Dreagon
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Dec 8 2015, 11:05 PM) *
Apparently Murray bypassed Chip and went to Lurie about lack of playing time.


I can't imagine what owner ever gave him the idea that might be the thing to do.
samaroo
That sounds like an alarmist spin that I didn't see. Ed Werder was the one (to my knowledge) that popped the story, and he didn't couch it as that. Check out Jimmy K, he's got a piece on it.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Dec 9 2015, 12:05 AM) *
got tied up today at work so didn't hear much of this but

Apparently Murray bypassed Chip and went to Lurie about lack of playing time.

Also, it was noted by others (I didn't notice this), that on Murray's last two carries while we were trying to milk the clock, he:

-gained 19 or so yards and voluntarily went out of bounds.
-gained 3 yards and voluntarily went out of bounds

-didn't go back in the game and involuntarily watched RB's who stayed in bounds run the rest of the game.

Good!


A few issues....Murray's last carry was with nearly 13 minutes left in the 4th quarter.......not exactly burning the clock....it was also the drive on which they scored a TD so whoever mentioned that is an idiot

I also wonder how Werder could have gotten so much detail about a conversation between 2 people......

and he also involuntarily watched a rb trying to run out the clock fumble to give New England a chance....

but hey...why mention any of that...
nd9kel
the conversation was on the team plane, going home from New England. Who initiated the conversation?
Phits
QUOTE (nd9kel @ Dec 9 2015, 10:10 AM) *
the conversation was on the team plane, going home from New England. Who initiated the conversation?

According to Chip (in his post game presser), Lurie likes to talk to the players and coaches before and/or after the game to ask 'how things are going'. It's quite possible that this was just one of those occurrences where Murray felt comfortable talking candidly.

In other words 'much ado about nothing'.

Murray is obviously frustrated with his productivity this season. Like most pro athletes he probably feels that he should be contributing more and that Chip has the ability to make it happen. Even though he would be right on both counts, he fails to acknowledge that he has been the least productive of our RB's when given the opportunity.
mcnabbulous
The numbers are pretty staggering when you compare Murray's production against the combination of Sproles, Mathews, and Barner.

With that said, it doesn't come as much of a surprise. Dallas abused him last year and his acceleration this year seems pretty evident of that. He looks like he is moving in slow motion compared to the other guys. I didn't watch enough of him last year to say if it looks the same, but I can't imagine he ran for 1,800 yards with this lack of burst.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 9 2015, 10:36 AM) *
The numbers are pretty staggering when you compare Murray's production against the combination of Sproles, Mathews, and Barner.

With that said, it doesn't come as much of a surprise. Dallas abused him last year and his acceleration this year seems pretty evident of that. He looks like he is moving in slow motion compared to the other guys. I didn't watch enough of him last year to say if it looks the same, but I can't imagine he ran for 1,800 yards with this lack of burst.


It has nothing to do with his acceleration....he is not and never has been a guy to run east west....he is a guy who does best running north south....and Kelly's refusal to run him out of the shotgun is baffling.....last year he ran with the QB under centre 91% of the time.....that is his strength....to sign him and not play to his strength is really odd. He is still fast but his speed is deceptive because of his leg motion...he runs like Keith Byars only faster. The Eagles have run him with the QB under centre less than 17%.....I am beginning to wonder if they were more concerned about keeping him from Dallas.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Dec 9 2015, 09:53 AM) *
It has nothing to do with his acceleration

I'll have to disagree with you here. No need to get into a 30 post rant. Neither of us can prove our case.
JeeQ
Murray has always been an overrated punk bitch who benefited from a great O-Line last season... He's fucking garbage and I hate everything about having him on this team... Hopefully this is the beginning of his way out of Philadelphia. Trading Shady and signing this crybaby fuckboy was the worst move GM Chip made all season... 40 million for the 4th best RB on the roster
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (JeeQ @ Dec 9 2015, 10:33 AM) *
Murray has always been an overrated punk bitch who benefited from a great O-Line last season...

This simply isn't true. That line is overrated. We currently have a slightly lesser ypa, but more yards and TD's despite being pretty obviously a trainwreck up front this season. Our best OL has missed time and our centre has regressed as much as any player in recent memory.

Murray is a solid talent, but signing the guy to a huge contract after a season where he carried the ball 436 times was fucking stupid.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (JeeQ @ Dec 9 2015, 11:33 AM) *
Murray has always been an overrated punk bitch who benefited from a great O-Line last season... He's fucking garbage and I hate everything about having him on this team... Hopefully this is the beginning of his way out of Philadelphia. Trading Shady and signing this crybaby fuckboy was the worst move GM Chip made all season... 40 million for the 4th best RB on the roster


Simply ridiculous....that great Dallas offensive line? last in the NFL in 3rd and short.....last!

grossly overrated.....Murray is a great back but he is in the wrong system....that is on the coach...
JeeQ
If only DeMarco had as many yards as he does excuses for being garbage all season he'd be a Pro Bowler
The Franchise
QUOTE (JeeQ @ Dec 9 2015, 02:30 PM) *
he'd be a Pro Bowler


And he'd earn himself a cut right after.
Eyrie
Pretty certain the spin at the time was that McCoy was a poor fit because he liked to dance around behind the line of scrimmage and so could lose yards, whilst Murray would be a good fit as he is a N-S runner to pound the ball between the tackles.

So what's gone wrong? Is Coach Kelly calling the wrong plays by getting Murray to run laterally? Or did GM Kelly sign the wrong player for that system? Or is it that our OL is so poor that it struggles to hold open a hole long enough for Murray to burst through? I've said before that the reason Mathews and Sproles look better is because they have that initial acceleration that Murray lacks.

Maybe fixing our ignored OL in the offseason will fix Murray.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Dec 9 2015, 02:45 PM) *
Pretty certain the spin at the time was that McCoy was a poor fit because he liked to dance around behind the line of scrimmage and so could lose yards, whilst Murray would be a good fit as he is a N-S runner to pound the ball between the tackles.

So what's gone wrong? Is Coach Kelly calling the wrong plays by getting Murray to run laterally? Or did GM Kelly sign the wrong player for that system? Or is it that our OL is so poor that it struggles to hold open a hole long enough for Murray to burst through? I've said before that the reason Mathews and Sproles look better is because they have that initial acceleration that Murray lacks.

Maybe fixing our ignored OL in the offseason will fix Murray.


Great questions....

It is a bit of all of it....

Kelly calls the wrong plays because he does not like the QB under centre.....our O line has been in trouble with Peters either missing or hobbled for most of the season..

And Sproles and Matthews and Barner are quicker to cut than Murray.

Murray has some culpability in this...he does not react well to small holes moving east west.

nephillymike
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Dec 9 2015, 06:58 PM) *
Great questions....

It is a bit of all of it....

Kelly calls the wrong plays because he does not like the QB under centre.....our O line has been in trouble with Peters either missing or hobbled for most of the season..

And Sproles and Matthews and Barner are quicker to cut than Murray.

Murray has some culpability in this...he does not react well to small holes moving east west.



I am glad he has "some" culpability in this.

It's always good when a guy with a 3.5 yards/carry and having almost $20M of guarantees and is the 4th best RB on the team has some culpability.

Is there much doubt that if we went to the QB taking the snap from the centre, that the other 3 would STILL be the better options?

I see the problem as two fold:

1. We are not a smash mouth type blocking OL. We are more finesse. That calls for quicker backs.

2. Murray, who was never that quick or elusive, is less so after the pounding he took last year.

We'l have him for another year with that price tag.

What is really alarming about Chip the GM to me is that one of the easiest things to do, should be to scout pro players to see if they are a fit for your system. I can see how doing that with college guys is a crap shoot, but finding a NFL player who is a system fit, should not be that hard. Chip has a RB who doesn't play our style, after jettisoning a guy who he said didn't play our style and paid him $20M+. We have a press corner who didn't play much press at SEA and paid him a shit load. We brought in a veteran WR, who wasn't a system fit either, nor a talent fit. If he can't figure out the easier parts of GMing, he ain't ever going to master the difficult stuff IMO.
samaroo
You are still the only person, Mikey, that I've ever seen say Maxwell wasn't a press corner.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Dec 9 2015, 11:44 PM) *
I am glad he has "some" culpability in this.

It's always good when a guy with a 3.5 yards/carry and having almost $20M of guarantees and is the 4th best RB on the team has some culpability.

Is there much doubt that if we went to the QB taking the snap from the centre, that the other 3 would STILL be the better options?

I see the problem as two fold:

1. We are not a smash mouth type blocking OL. We are more finesse. That calls for quicker backs.

2. Murray, who was never that quick or elusive, is less so after the pounding he took last year.

We'l have him for another year with that price tag.

What is really alarming about Chip the GM to me is that one of the easiest things to do, should be to scout pro players to see if they are a fit for your system. I can see how doing that with college guys is a crap shoot, but finding a NFL player who is a system fit, should not be that hard. Chip has a RB who doesn't play our style, after jettisoning a guy who he said didn't play our style and paid him $20M+. We have a press corner who didn't play much press at SEA and paid him a shit load. We brought in a veteran WR, who wasn't a system fit either, nor a talent fit. If he can't figure out the easier parts of GMing, he ain't ever going to master the difficult stuff IMO.



you see...you have to get carried away and get all silly....

Austin was a WR added for veteran presence and you portray him as if he was signed to be the number 1...

and you go on about signing Maxwell as if there was another option.....you would be crying like a baby had they not signed him......hell...you wanted to make the Pittsburgh bench warmer your starter....

I agree that Kelly should have either passed on Murray or run more plays under centre...and no...the other backs would not be as good in the I.....Matthews would have gotten hurt sooner and Sproles the same....

Kelly has not been a horrible GM by any means...he has made some errors but overall he is been ok for his first year with only 2 years in the NFL.
Zero
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Dec 9 2015, 11:44 PM) *
What is really alarming about Chip the GM to me is that one of the easiest things to do, should be to scout pro players to see if they are a fit for your system. I can see how doing that with college guys is a crap shoot, but finding a NFL player who is a system fit, should not be that hard. Chip has a RB who doesn't play our style, after jettisoning a guy who he said didn't play our style and paid him $20M+. We have a press corner who didn't play much press at SEA and paid him a shit load. We brought in a veteran WR, who wasn't a system fit either, nor a talent fit. If he can't figure out the easier parts of GMing, he ain't ever going to master the difficult stuff IMO.

Remember that Kelly's first instinct was to sign Gore and Mathews which probably would have been a better fit than Murray. When Gore backed out and Bradford pushed for the still available and disgruntled Murray, Kelly reacted impulsively. Hopefully just a rookie mistake.

We needed a CB and grabbed the best one available, not a crime until the DC doesn't play him to his strengths. I always thought the good coaches adjusted their schemes to fit the talent of their players. Over time they get players who will excel in their system, and there's where Kelly will hopefully be going.

It's unrealistic to expect a third year NFL coach and first year GM to be mistake free. If Murray has actually been demoted it's a good sign because it shows the man is learning to admit mistakes and adjust. He and Marynowitz have now had a full year to settle into their respective jobs, devise and research prospective FA and draft for players who will not only have the talent to improve the team but who will fit the systems. We should expect more this year than last year.

The problem with judging a GM is that it likely will take 3-4 years to know if their moves worked. Sometimes, like Murray (maybe) you'll know sooner but to declare Kelly either a failure or success as GM after one season, especially considering all the contributing factors isn't fair.
SAM I Am
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Dec 10 2015, 01:07 AM) *
Kelly has not been a horrible GM by any means...he has made some errors but overall he is been ok for his first year with only 2 years in the NFL.

Which is why he shouldn't be the GM of this team, just the Head Coach. That position shouldn't be filled by an on-the-job training college coach/GM. It should be held by an experienced NFL executive.

I'm sure Jeff Lurie means well --- although truth be told, he probably no longer possesses that burning desire to win a SB that I am sure he had when he first bought the team --- but I think he, like Chip, needs all the NFL experienced and qualified help he can get when making decisions for the organization.
Zero
QUOTE (SAM I Am @ Dec 10 2015, 08:19 AM) *
I think he, like Chip, needs all the NFL experienced and qualified help he can get when making decisions for the organization.

I agree with this obvious point which is different from an argument that he should not be GM.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (SAM I Am @ Dec 10 2015, 07:19 AM) *
Which is why he shouldn't be the GM of this team, just the Head Coach. That position shouldn't be filled by an on-the-job training college coach/GM. It should be held by an experienced NFL executive.

Ding ding ding. It shoudn't be filled by a coach, period. Chip has his hands full as it is with trying to keep his offense one step ahead of NFL defenses. To date, that isn't trending in the right direction.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (SAM I Am @ Dec 10 2015, 08:19 AM) *
Which is why he shouldn't be the GM of this team, just the Head Coach. That position shouldn't be filled by an on-the-job training college coach/GM. It should be held by an experienced NFL executive.

I'm sure Jeff Lurie means well --- although truth be told, he probably no longer possesses that burning desire to win a SB that I am sure he had when he first bought the team --- but I think he, like Chip, needs all the NFL experienced and qualified help he can get when making decisions for the organization.



Sammy...I like you but I disagree on Lurie.......I think the fire burns ever hotter and grows every year without a ring...

Jeff is all about football....

As far as being GM? I don't care if he is...as long as the job gets done....I did not like Howie....always thought he was like a kid playing......he was becoming a pariah with agents a a bit of a megalomaniac....
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 10 2015, 10:31 AM) *
Ding ding ding. It shoudn't be filled by a coach, period. Chip has his hands full as it is with trying to keep his offense one step ahead of NFL defenses. To date, that isn't trending in the right direction.



A fair point
mcnabbulous
RF -- This article seems to throw water on most of your arguments. Murray has simply been bad this year. And scheme isn't the primary culprit.

At this point, the beating he took last year is the best explanation.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 10 2015, 05:09 PM) *
At this point, the beating he took last year is the best explanation.

He's an average RB who had an outstanding season (last year), behind a very good o-line.

It was a desperation signing by Chip last season after the Gore deal fell apart.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Dec 10 2015, 05:29 PM) *
He's an average RB who had an outstanding season (last year), behind a very good o-line.

It was a desperation signing by Chip last season after the Gore deal fell apart.

C'mon man. 1800+ yards doesn't happen by accident. He's an excellent talent. He just got beat to shit last year. No one has ever overcome that type of beating.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 10 2015, 07:23 PM) *
C'mon man. 1800+ yards doesn't happen by accident. He's an excellent talent. He just got beat to shit last year. No one has ever overcome that type of beating.

Right place, right time. Lightning in a bottle.

I have 2 words for you: Nick Foles (27-2). His 2013 performance level doesn't happen "by accident". He had 7 TD's in 1 game, only 6 other QB's have done that in the history of the game. I dare you to call him an excellent talent.



mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Dec 10 2015, 08:11 PM) *
Right place, right time. Lightning in a bottle.

I have 2 words for you: Nick Foles (27-2). His 2013 performance level doesn't happen "by accident". He had 7 TD's in 1 game, only 6 other QB's have done that in the history of the game. I dare you to call him an excellent talent.

Nick Foles sucks. The difference is that Murray had an excellent season the year before his 1800 yard season. He was a career 4.8 ypc guy before this season. The only thing keeping him from consideration as one of the better backs in football was his injury history.

Nick Foles had one good season which has been sandwiched between is real mediocrity.

What is happening to Demarco this year is nothing like the rest of his career.
JeeQ
QUOTE (Phits @ Dec 10 2015, 03:29 PM) *
He's an average RB who had an outstanding season (last year), behind a very good o-line.

It was a desperation signing by Chip last season after the Gore deal fell apart.


All this right here
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 10 2015, 05:09 PM) *
RF -- This article seems to throw water on most of your arguments. Murray has simply been bad this year. And scheme isn't the primary culprit.

At this point, the beating he took last year is the best explanation.


Yep...I read it....another one of us with delusions of grandeur....

What is missed is that Dallas ran out of the I almost exclusively....a completely different running style for the back who gets the ball with a head of steam. Beyond that they also have a TE and WR who demand attention on every play. Now if Dallas ran more than 20% out of the shotgun I would agree with you but sadly they did not. Murray ran out of the shotgun in Dallas less than 10% of his runs.....that becomes a novelty rather than a play you scheme for. He has run out of the shotgun here over 80%(although last game they quoted 91%). Of course the NFL analysts all mention the same thing...not that Murray looks slow....that he is in the wrong scheme here in Philly....funny how that is nearly unanimous among the national analysts.

The article compares apples to oranges.

Also annoying is the sudden elevation of Barner as a god......he had a 19 yard run on an obvious passing down after a holding call made it 1 and 20. He had a nice run against a nickle defense and then proceeded to get 20 yards on the next 8 carries.....awesome.....and he had some runs against Detroit and Tampa....terrific.....they played prevent while leading by several TDs.......great stuff......not to mention his fumble in crunch time that nearly allowed NE to tie the game....maybe he should start.

What I do like is that Murray is 10 for 10 on 3rd and 1......another stat the would be reporter missed in his silly article.

There are several reason for Murray's lack of production.....his early injuries....a spotty O line and Murray himself being tentative picking holes on the edge(probably the biggest issue)Matthews really seems to thrive on that aspect and honestly, if Matthews could stay healthy we would not have him because he is an immensely talented back...really fast and very strong....but fragile.

I discount the games with Sanchez for one reason....their exchange was painful to watch....sometimes it seemed Sanchez nearly tripped him...clearly a coaching issue...not sure if that is Murray or Sanchez or both.

mcnabbulous
What your argument doesn't justify is why his numbers from the gun vs. under centre were largely the same prior to coming to Philly and why his numbers when under centre are so bad here.

I know you don't want to admit it, but last years beating is doing a number on the guy.

And I've been commending him for his short yardage ability all year. In fact, I really think it's the only time he should be on the field at this point.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 11 2015, 11:47 AM) *
What your argument doesn't justify is why his numbers from the gun vs. under centre were largely the same prior to coming to Philly and why his numbers when under centre are so bad here.

I know you don't want to admit it, but last years beating is doing a number on the guy.

And I've been commending him for his short yardage ability all year. In fact, I really think it's the only time he should be on the field at this point.


My argument does not justify it? I said it rather clearly....he ran less than 10% from the shotgun in Dallas..less than 10%!!...which means it was primarily a lot of 3rd and longs trying to catch the defense offguard....draws..it was more of their "get some yardage back before punting" play.....here it is the staple of the offense. Big difference.

I do not discount the workload may have taken a toll....butwhen all the national analysts including multiple SB winning coaches point to scheme rather than physical ability I take notice.

mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Dec 11 2015, 02:00 PM) *
My argument does not justify it? I said it rather clearly....he ran less than 10% from the shotgun in Dallas..less than 10%!!...which means it was primarily a lot of 3rd and longs trying to catch the defense offguard....draws..it was more of their "get some yardage back before punting" play.....here it is the staple of the offense. Big difference.

I do not discount the workload may have taken a toll....butwhen all the national analysts including multiple SB winning coaches point to scheme rather than physical ability I take notice.

Well, he's been shit from under centre this year...
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 11 2015, 03:23 PM) *
Well, he's been shit from under centre this year...


Hard to evaluate that on so few runs.....and considering the entire defense knows that he is running the ball if the QB is under centre not unexpected.....

Murray may be simply on the decline...I do not rule that out but I do not think that is it....after getting over the early hammy issues he has moved well.....but he is just not that dig and turn runner.....he is a momentum runner and he has had a hard time finding the surge point on stretch plays....he has not fit in yet.....I am just not ready to throw out the baby with the bath water
nephillymike
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 11 2015, 11:47 AM) *
What your argument doesn't justify is why his numbers from the gun vs. under centre were largely the same prior to coming to Philly and why his numbers when under centre are so bad here.

I know you don't want to admit it, but last years beating is doing a number on the guy.

And I've been commending him for his short yardage ability all year. In fact, I really think it's the only time he should be on the field at this point.


Yep, that 3rd and 1 slide was a doozy!! If only Vick could have mastered that!
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 10 2015, 09:18 PM) *
What is happening to Demarco this year is nothing like the rest of his career.

What he did last season (with Dallas) is nothing like the rest of his career.
JeeQ
QUOTE (Phits @ Dec 11 2015, 06:50 PM) *
What he did last season (with Dallas) is nothing like the rest of his career.


mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Dec 11 2015, 08:50 PM) *
What he did last season (with Dallas) is nothing like the rest of his career.

You're right. His ypa was about yard less than the year before.
nephillymike
More drama.

It was the first story on NFL Network this AM.

Saying that Eagles are contemplating benching Murray and having him as the 4th most used RB in this game.

And they say that the ability to make defenders miss at the second level is a prerequisite in Chip's offense.

Huh? There is not a person with a brain cell that would ever think that Murray is more elusive than McCoy in the second level, so I don't know where that prerequisite comes from. I think it's true in reality, but it wasn't true based upon the dismissal of McCoy and recruitment of Murray.

They say that he dissed both Chip and Duce to Lurie.

Who knows what's true.

The fact they are reporting it with a bunch of unknown sources in two different segments is interesting.

Even I would be surprised if they activated four RB's and didn't use Murray much or deactivated him all together.

However, if MY job as coach is on the line and I need to field my best RB's, he's 4th, no doubt.

Too much drama.
Zero
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Dec 13 2015, 09:55 AM) *
More drama.

It was the first story on NFL Network this AM.

Saying that Eagles are contemplating benching Murray and having him as the 4th most used RB in this game.

And they say that the ability to make defenders miss at the second level is a prerequisite in Chip's offense.

Huh? There is not a person with a brain cell that would ever think that Murray is more elusive than McCoy in the second level, so I don't know where that prerequisite comes from. I think it's true in reality, but it wasn't true based upon the dismissal of McCoy and recruitment of Murray.

They say that he dissed both Chip and Duce to Lurie.

Who knows what's true.

The fact they are reporting it with a bunch of unknown sources in two different segments is interesting.

Even I would be surprised if they activated four RB's and didn't use Murray much or deactivated him all together.

However, if MY job as coach is on the line and I need to field my best RB's, he's 4th, no doubt.

Too much drama.

I wouldn't say Chip 'recruited' Murray. He recruited Gore and Mathews, Gore backed out and Murray was still available, felt dissed by a division rival and was recruited by the new QB.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Zero @ Dec 13 2015, 10:31 AM) *
I wouldn't say Chip 'recruited' Murray. He recruited Gore and Mathews, Gore backed out and Murray was still available, felt dissed by a division rival and was recruited by the new QB.



Fair enough.

Whether heavily recruited or he fell into his lap, at that type of guaranteed coin A LOT of conversation went on about him being a good fit.
Zero
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Dec 13 2015, 10:40 AM) *
Fair enough.

Whether heavily recruited or he fell into his lap, at that type of guaranteed coin A LOT of conversation went on about him being a good fit.

Yeah, it sure likes like a rookie GM mistake no matter how it came down.
Phits
QUOTE (Zero @ Dec 13 2015, 10:44 AM) *
Yeah, it sure likes like a rookie GM mistake no matter how it came down.

I think this hits the nail on the head. It was a bad rookie mistake. CK's advances were spurned by Gore, rather than let it happen again he probably sweetened the pot for Murray. Now we are where we are.

Lesson learned, you don't need to spend premium $$ on an RB....unless his name is Adrian Peterson and it is 5 years ago wink.gif
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