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Phits
Of all the off season losses during the Chip Kelly era, he is the line player that I wish we had a do over for. That's not to say he would have improved our wins this season, but he was a dependable consistent wr. His dependability would probably be a confidence booster for Bradford. We would likely see more consistency with a dependable target.

Our current group of receivers aren't ready for primetime... yet.
mcnabbulous
Chip definitely didn't anticipate Maclin leaving. We would be better with him, but he made his choice. Not much we could have done.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 4 2015, 05:04 PM) *
Chip definitely didn't anticipate Maclin leaving. We would be better with him, but he made his choice. Not much we could have done.

True enough. I don't fault either side. It was a reasonable offer. As the saying goes....if wishes were horses beggars would ride.
nephillymike
What could we have done?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm...........................

For starters, maybe Chip could have answered the fucking phone when Maclin tried to call him when Andy and Avant were calling him after the Chiefs increased their offer and make him feel wanted.

Or maybe, you could have made him a higher offer than the Chiefs did given that we had a lot more cap room than they did at the time and we still have over $4M of cap room than they do. BTW, that $4M of cap room played at Pro Bowl Level this year hasn't it?

Of course we don't miss Maclin.

That would mean that maybe the Genius GM made a bad move and we all know that that isn't possible.

These 1-3 starts are all execution related.

Our talent level is top rate.

Just ask Chip the Coach as he will tell you it is execution in every press conference he has.

Greater talent executes a greater percentage of the time.

A lesson we will know all too well at the end of this season.
mcnabbulous
I can't believe you're still buying that puff piece bullshit, Mikey. We tried to sign Maclin long term before 2014. He bet on himself and then cashed in when the opportunity presented itself. Nothing more.
nephillymike
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 4 2015, 07:58 PM) *
I can't believe you're still buying that puff piece bullshit, Mikey. We tried to sign Maclin long term before 2014. He bet on himself and then cashed in when the opportunity presented itself. Nothing more.



I have $10M this year more than you.

We both want the same thing at auction.

You out bid me by 1/2M a year.

Whose the idiot in this transaction?

He should have cashed in when the opportunity presented itself by us being the highest bidder.

Now if we had any semblance of a WR corps without him, maybe, just maybe, it would be understandable.

With Cooper, Matthews, Huff and Maehl it wasn't.
mcnabbulous
I was told by everyone preseason that Matthews is great.

Maclin left on his own. Blaming Chip for that is stupid.
nephillymike
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 4 2015, 08:05 PM) *
I was told by everyone preseason that Matthews is great.

Maclin left on his own. Blaming Chip for that is stupid.



NO.

If we offered him more money, then Maclin left on is own.

Otherwise, the blame lies at the feet of our GM.
mcnabbulous
Don't pay guys more than you think they are worth. A numbers guy should respect that.
nephillymike
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 4 2015, 08:14 PM) *
Don't pay guys more than you think they are worth. A numbers guy should respect that.


A numbers guy doesn't respect when the valuation is wrong.

A fan doesn't respect when that bad valuation leads to losses on the football field.

It is exponentially more difficult to find talent in this league than it is to pony up the extra $500,000 or so a year to keep talent.
GQSmooth
I don't think Maclin would matter with the Qb and offensive line in place. Maclin was dependable but wasn't dramatically better than the receivers on the field now.
CT_Eagle
Why wasn't the franchise tag used? Maybe Maclin would have been overpaid this season but with the tag, they could have moved on after
this year.

If Chip wanted Maclin, Maclin would be here.
nephillymike
QUOTE (GQSmooth @ Oct 4 2015, 08:22 PM) *
I don't think Maclin would matter with the Qb and offensive line in place. Maclin was dependable but wasn't dramatically better than the receivers on the field now.


He is a pace to have 112 catches for 1592 yards and 4 TD's.

I think we could squeeze him into our lineup somewhere.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 4 2015, 09:31 PM) *
He is a pace to have 112 catches for 1592 yards and 4 TD's.

I think we could squeeze him into our lineup somewhere.



Did I miss something? Did the 1-3 Chiefs rack up a ton of TDs with Maclin? or did they also lose today and settle for 7 FGs and no TDs?



Joegrane
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 4 2015, 05:04 PM) *
Chip definitely didn't anticipate Maclin leaving. We would be better with him, but he made his choice. Not much we could have done.

I don't know about that. It think Chip had to realize Andy was desperate for a real WR and that Maclin would be attracted to the opportunity to return to Mo as home town hero.

I most certainly agree that we miss Maclin. He made many big catches, including many over the middle in traffic.


nephillymike
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 4 2015, 08:51 PM) *
Did I miss something? Did the 1-3 Chiefs rack up a ton of TDs with Maclin? or did they also lose today and settle for 7 FGs and no TDs?



His 140 yards weren't enough.

I got a hunch we could use a few of those yards.
D Rock
16 drops on the season.
nephillymike
QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 4 2015, 10:19 PM) *
16 drops on the season.



Mac had one drop last year. ONE.

We may be able to squeeze the sure hands in maybe as our 5th WR with our HOF cast.
mcnabbulous
Maclin is great. He also chose to leave a great situation to go play for a limp armed Alex Smith. He made his choice. Get over it.
Eyrie
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 5 2015, 02:03 AM) *
I have $10M this year more than you.

We both want the same thing at auction.

You out bid me by 1/2M a year.

Whose the idiot in this transaction?

He should have cashed in when the opportunity presented itself by us being the highest bidder.

Now if we had any semblance of a WR corps without him, maybe, just maybe, it would be understandable.

With Cooper, Matthews, Huff and Maehl it wasn't.

So you up your offer by $750k to beat me.

Are you doing that from $5m? $7m? $9m? $11m?

At what point do you stop and think about what value you're getting?

Maclin was offered top dollar to stay, and even more to leave.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 4 2015, 11:49 PM) *
Mac had one drop last year. ONE.

We may be able to squeeze the sure hands in maybe as our 5th WR with our HOF cast.


He is a great possession WR...maybe the best ever....usually those are your number 3 guys. Maclin is a good WR who got great WR money....I congratulate him.....and we may miss him this year......but he got 5 years....it was a ridiculous deal....if you can't see the absurdity of that deal in the big picture than I can't explain it any better...

It is cute watching the panic set in though.....relax......take a deep breath.....
nephillymike
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 5 2015, 09:40 AM) *
Maclin is great. He also chose to leave a great situation to go play for a limp armed Alex Smith. He made his choice. Get over it.



We made our choice.

Maybe one day our offense will get over it.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Oct 5 2015, 01:31 PM) *
So you up your offer by $750k to beat me.

Are you doing that from $5m? $7m? $9m? $11m?

At what point do you stop and think about what value you're getting?

Maclin was offered top dollar to stay, and even more to leave.


When I have Cooper Huff Mathews and Maehl as my WR's at the time, I do whatever it takes to get the deal done.

IN an era when the cap goes up close to $10M a year (BTW, Mac;'s cap value this year, approx $3.5M), his audacious contract devalues over time.
CT_Eagle
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 6 2015, 12:49 AM) *
When I have Cooper Huff Mathews and Maehl as my WR's at the time, I do whatever it takes to get the deal done.

IN an era when the cap goes up close to $10M a year (BTW, Mac;'s cap value this year, approx $3.5M), his audacious contract devalues over time.

I still think they should have franchised him and moved on after this season.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 5 2015, 06:45 PM) *
We made our choice.

Maybe one day our offense will get over it.

What choice? We offered him a very fair contract. Prior to that, we offered him a multi year deal despite the fact that he was coming off his second major knee injury.

Maclin took the money and hit the road.
nephillymike
QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Oct 5 2015, 06:56 PM) *
I still think they should have franchised him and moved on after this season.



Or franchise him and then give him a good deal this past offseason

Or franchise him and see how he plays this year then give him a good deal now.

Or just out bid a team that can't carry our cap jock.

Not very difficult.
samaroo
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 6 2015, 09:01 AM) *
Or franchise him and then give him a good deal this past offseason

Or franchise him and see how he plays this year then give him a good deal now.

Or just out bid a team that can't carry our cap jock.

Not very difficult.


I don't know, Mikey. You seem like the type to jump down a throat for overpaying for a player. I know you scream every year to spend the money, but if overpaying for players becomes a habit, you end up like the Skins. You have to draw the line somewhere. $10M/year for Mac is too much.

Having said that, I will now talk out of the other side of my mouth:

I was totally cool with the numbers in the Maxwell signing. It was exorbitant, but we needed that hole plugged. Whatever the market will bear, right? So, there's an argument for both sides. I think the tricky part is determining when to take which side. Too much money too often puts the franchise in a hole. Too little money too often means you are likely not fielding a contender.

Maybe it's hard to be a GM.
Eyrie
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 6 2015, 12:49 AM) *
When I have Cooper Huff Mathews and Maehl as my WR's at the time, I do whatever it takes to get the deal done.

IN an era when the cap goes up close to $10M a year (BTW, Mac;'s cap value this year, approx $3.5M), his audacious contract devalues over time.

So you're admitting you'd overpay for a player.

And then when the next deal comes up (Kendricks? Cox?) you have to do the same for them. Suddenly the extra $2m a year that you overpaid one player by starts to mount up because there could be four or five deals involved.

D Rock
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Oct 6 2015, 11:07 PM) *
So you're admitting you'd overpay for a player.

And then when the next deal comes up (Kendricks? Cox?) you have to do the same for them. Suddenly the extra $2m a year that you overpaid one player by starts to mount up because there could be four or five deals involved.

Glass legged Kendricks has already been extended. -just sayin.
nephillymike
QUOTE (samaroo @ Oct 5 2015, 11:23 PM) *
I don't know, Mikey. You seem like the type to jump down a throat for overpaying for a player. I know you scream every year to spend the money, but if overpaying for players becomes a habit, you end up like the Skins. You have to draw the line somewhere. $10M/year for Mac is too much.

Having said that, I will now talk out of the other side of my mouth:

I was totally cool with the numbers in the Maxwell signing. It was exorbitant, but we needed that hole plugged. Whatever the market will bear, right? So, there's an argument for both sides. I think the tricky part is determining when to take which side. Too much money too often puts the franchise in a hole. Too little money too often means you are likely not fielding a contender.

Maybe it's hard to be a GM.



I've consistently said since the discovery of the Eagles haucking the salary cap back in 2001 that we needed to spend more.

A broken record to some of the old timers I'm sure.

I realize that you have to let talent go sometimes. But you only do it when you have the depth to do so. How nayone can think we had depth worthy of a Maclin departure is beyond me. Don't create a need. Needs will find you. That part isn't difficult.

I was all for the Maxwell deal. Even at his best, I don't think there was anyone who thought he wasn't over paid. He was the highest prize in a sellers market. The think that I was completely blind sided by was that he is a Cb who played zone 90% of the time in SEA, and was not known as a man to man press corner. Having experienced Naamdi a few years ago, that would have given me pause. I had no idea. My bad. But you would think scheme fit would have come up in our GM department before doing the deal. Take Maxwell's deal add a few mill and get Reavis or a better scheme fit Cb or two if need be if you can't get the big fish for the bigger money.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Oct 6 2015, 05:07 PM) *
So you're admitting you'd overpay for a player.

And then when the next deal comes up (Kendricks? Cox?) you have to do the same for them. Suddenly the extra $2m a year that you overpaid one player by starts to mount up because there could be four or five deals involved.



Most times if you sign a big money free agent or your own player to a top deal, you "over pay".

But, if the ILB situation plays out like it might Hicks playing well, Alonzo coming back and playing well and Kendricks doing the same, then you can cut ties with Demeco. We have depth there.

However at OLB, you can't jettison Graham or Barwin because our depth got Marcused.

When you have the backups on OL we had, you can't let both starting guards go.

However, our RB depth is there, so we can let a RB go in the future.

That part isn't difficult IMO.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 4 2015, 08:51 PM) *
Did I miss something? Did the 1-3 Chiefs rack up a ton of TDs with Maclin? or did they also lose today and settle for 7 FGs and no TDs?


As the 4-0 Broncos is a reflection of Mathis' greatness..................................
Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 6 2015, 10:55 PM) *
As the 4-0 Broncos is a reflection of Mathis' greatness..................................


really?.....in spite of Mathis Peyton has forced them to go more with the shotgun to get rid of the ball fast so Mathis getting beat repeatedly is not an issue as much...and the Eagles sacks allowed % is still below Denver's

and Denver has the number 2 defense in the league for points allowed....they have 3 times the number of sacks that we have......

another example of terrible writers in Philly who proclaimed our front 7 so good...Billy Davis is horrible....horrible....
D Rock
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 7 2015, 03:55 AM) *
As the 4-0 Broncos is a reflection of Mathis' greatness..................................

... and Big Tod is a healthy scratch on a terrible o line in Indy. Not even dressed.
D Rock
We're down to our 4th defensive end. Our fourth ILB. And have zero depth at OLB. Wonder why we can't rush the passer? They rush Barwin and put Grahamm in coverage. Really?
samaroo
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 7 2015, 09:19 AM) *
I was all for the Maxwell deal. Even at his best, I don't think there was anyone who thought he wasn't over paid. He was the highest prize in a sellers market. The think that I was completely blind sided by was that he is a Cb who played zone 90% of the time in SEA, and was not known as a man to man press corner. Having experienced Naamdi a few years ago, that would have given me pause. I had no idea. My bad. But you would think scheme fit would have come up in our GM department before doing the deal. Take Maxwell's deal add a few mill and get Reavis or a better scheme fit Cb or two if need be if you can't get the big fish for the bigger money.


I keep seeing you say this here, but you're the only one I've heard that from. You made me do some research on it. Seattle played a 1 or 3 deep coverage 90% of the time. Their CBs played a press-bail concept most of the time. So, technically he was in a zone defense, but it was mostly man concept.
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 7 2015, 12:07 PM) *
really?.....in spite of Mathis Peyton has forced them to go more with the shotgun to get rid of the ball fast so Mathis getting beat repeatedly is not an issue as much...and the Eagles sacks allowed % is still below Denver's

and Denver has the number 2 defense in the league for points allowed....they have 3 times the number of sacks that we have......

another example of terrible writers in Philly who proclaimed our front 7 so good...Billy Davis is horrible....horrible....


Our opposing QBs have gotten rid of the ball pretty fast against us, it seems to me. Which, I think, is a product of our pass rush. Davis has said a few times that sacks and INTs are linked, and I agree. Our secondary has looked better than they really are particularly because of the guys up front, in my opinion.
Eyrie
QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 7 2015, 12:39 AM) *
Glass legged Kendricks has already been extended. -just sayin.

I know, but my point was that we'd have had to pay him more if we'd added another $1m to the Maclin offer.

QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 7 2015, 01:25 AM) *
Most times if you sign a big money free agent or your own player to a top deal, you "over pay".

But, if the ILB situation plays out like it might Hicks playing well, Alonzo coming back and playing well and Kendricks doing the same, then you can cut ties with Demeco. We have depth there.

However at OLB, you can't jettison Graham or Barwin because our depth got Marcused.

When you have the backups on OL we had, you can't let both starting guards go.

However, our RB depth is there, so we can let a RB go in the future.

That part isn't difficult IMO.

That doesn't answer my point about when you decide to stop overpaying. Some would say that the offer we made Maclin was already overpaying.

Agree with you on Ryans and OL. We can use some of the cap that we haven't over-overspent to fix OLB and OL next year (assuming we actually spend the money).
nephillymike
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Oct 7 2015, 05:09 PM) *
I know, but my point was that we'd have had to pay him more if we'd added another $1m to the Maclin offer.


That doesn't answer my point about when you decide to stop overpaying. Some would say that the offer we made Maclin was already overpaying.

Agree with you on Ryans and OL. We can use some of the cap that we haven't over-overspent to fix OLB and OL next year (assuming we actually spend the money).



You stop over paying when you have enough depth to do so.

Understand?
nephillymike
QUOTE (samaroo @ Oct 7 2015, 03:12 AM) *
I keep seeing you say this here, but you're the only one I've heard that from. You made me do some research on it. Seattle played a 1 or 3 deep coverage 90% of the time. Their CBs played a press-bail concept most of the time. So, technically he was in a zone defense, but it was mostly man concept.


Our opposing QBs have gotten rid of the ball pretty fast against us, it seems to me. Which, I think, is a product of our pass rush. Davis has said a few times that sacks and INTs are linked, and I agree. Our secondary has looked better than they really are particularly because of the guys up front, in my opinion.



I heard it from Didinger, Baldinger and Jaws.

All three are avid tape watchers and know the game.

I had no idea this was the case and was shocked.

Diddy even said that even though he didn't play in that style, he thought that Maxwell would adjust well. He said he has doubts watching him in this system. He said that in the cover 3, the CB turns the WR over to the safties on may of the inside slants while in this system the CB is expected to handle the entire route. Also said some other techie stuff that football coaches would understand but I didn't remember the details.
samaroo
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 8 2015, 10:44 AM) *
I heard it from Didinger, Baldinger and Jaws.

All three are avid tape watchers and know the game.

I had no idea this was the case and was shocked.

Diddy even said that even though he didn't play in that style, he thought that Maxwell would adjust well. He said he has doubts watching him in this system. He said that in the cover 3, the CB turns the WR over to the safties on may of the inside slants while in this system the CB is expected to handle the entire route. Also said some other techie stuff that football coaches would understand but I didn't remember the details.


If I'm not mistaken, in Seattle's Cover 3 the CB stays with the WR as deep as he goes. It's the underneath stuff they pass off. But the CBs play press and then turn and run to get depth. That's what I've seen from them anyway.

And IF I'm not mistaken, that should translate pretty well to what we are asking him to do here, which is kind of survive on an island, with help over the top.
Eyrie
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 8 2015, 02:36 AM) *
You stop over paying when you have enough depth to do so.

Understand?

OK, so our depth at WR was Matthews. Huff had shown nothing and Cooper is Cooper.

On that basis we were right to offer to overpay Maclin. But what if KC had upped their offer? Would you then over-overpay to keep Maclin?

We overpaid to get Maxwell based on his value at the time (rather than his current performance level) but we got our man. Should we have over-overpaid for Revis instead?
nephillymike
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Oct 8 2015, 02:48 PM) *
OK, so our depth at WR was Matthews. Huff had shown nothing and Cooper is Cooper.

On that basis we were right to offer to overpay Maclin. But what if KC had upped their offer? Would you then over-overpay to keep Maclin?

We overpaid to get Maxwell based on his value at the time (rather than his current performance level) but we got our man. Should we have over-overpaid for Revis instead?



When you have Matthews Huff, Cooper and Maehl, you pay what it takes to prevent us from having a dearth of talent.

When you are battling one on one with the cap strapped KC Chiefs, you definitely get your man as they can't go toe to toe with you.

I was fine with the money they committed to getting a FA CB. I Just wish they would have spent it on someone who could play our system, or adapt the system to fit the 61M new CB. Doing it the way they did makes no sense.

At the end of the day, a good team will have a few guys who are overpaid, and a few guys who are underpaid and a bunch of guys in between. Individually, it doesn't matter if you over pay this guy, or have a good low earning contributing guy in his first contract for that guy. In totality, all that matters is that you are able to fit the sum of the over and under payments under the salary cap while making the team the best it can be. I don't think this team is near the best it could be given the cap space we entered the off season with and the talent we had here to being with. I would hope that is obvious.
CT_Eagle
I know I keep beating this horse but one more time... If Chip wanted Maclin here, he would be here. All Chip had to do is apply the franchise tag.

A tag would have put the Eagles on the hook for one season of Maclin's salary. I am pretty sure the Eagles have enough room under this year's
cap to afford Maclin's salary this year.



mcnabbulous
The WR number was $12.83M for WRs. It's pretty obvious that they didn't think he was worth that much.
CT_Eagle
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 9 2015, 12:28 PM) *
The WR number was $12.83M for WRs. It's pretty obvious that they didn't think he was worth that much.


The money is irrelevant since it would have been only one year of the Eagles paying Maclin 3.8 mil more than the Eagles offer to Maclin.
That is nothing in the grand scheme of things and the Eagles have the room under the cap to accommodate 3.8 mil. If that 3.8 mil is the
reason Chip did not bring back Maclin then Chip was being penny wise and pound foolish. Overpaying a player over several years is one thing.
This would have been one season and it would have provided the offense with some consistency which the offense desperately needs right now.
mcnabbulous
As far as I know, Howie is still the contract guy. I don't know enough about our cap situation to say what led to their choices. Could we have extended Kendricks had we franchised Maclin?

The bottom line is that Maclin made his choice. Chip has made mistakes, but Maclin choosing to leave isn't on him.
CT_Eagle
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 9 2015, 04:03 PM) *
As far as I know, Howie is still the contract guy. I don't know enough about our cap situation to say what led to their choices. Could we have extended Kendricks had we franchised Maclin?
Chip has made mistakes, but Maclin choosing to leave isn't on him.


Maclin choosing to leave is not on Chip. Chip allowing Maclin to leave is on Chip.

I have said it several times, If Chip wanted Maclin here, Maclin would be here. The franchise tag was at Chip's disposal and he did not use it to
keep Maclin. That is on Chip.
Phits
QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Oct 9 2015, 11:21 AM) *
Maclin choosing to leave is not on Chip. Chip allowing Maclin to leave is on Chip.

I have said it several times, If Chip wanted Maclin here, Maclin would be here. The franchise tag was at Chip's disposal and he did not use it to
keep Maclin. That is on Chip.

Tagging him and forcing him into a one year deal might have just pissed him off. He just finished a "show me" season. Maclin would be risking injury or under performing. I can't imagine he would be happy with taking that same risk in back to back seasons. You would have to trust that his contempt doesn't bleed through the locker room.

CT_Eagle
QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 9 2015, 03:39 PM) *
Tagging him and forcing him into a one year deal might have just pissed him off. He just finished a "show me" season. Maclin would be risking injury or under performing. I can't imagine he would be happy with taking that same risk in back to back seasons. You would have to trust that his contempt doesn't bleed through the locker room.


Maclin would be no different than any other player that gets the franchise tag. They all risk injury or underperforming while under the franchise
tag.

Again, this has nothing to do with my point. I will say it again. If Chip wanted Maclin here, Maclin would be here. There is nothing Maclin could
have done about it other than sit the season out.

Phits
QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Oct 9 2015, 12:05 PM) *
Maclin would be no different than any other player that gets the franchise tag. They all risk injury or underperforming while under the franchise
tag.

Again, this has nothing to do with my point. I will say it again. If Chip wanted Maclin here, Maclin would be here. There is nothing Maclin could
have done about it other than sit the season out.

If Maclin wanted to be here, he would have signed the offer that was made to him in the off season....or the previous summer (when he was coming off of injury).

More importantly, what benefit would there be in keeping him for an additional (single) season? The likelihood of him re-signing is basically gone, and you still have a hole to fill on the roster the next season. Unless you're on the cusp of contending for a SB, I don't see how franchising a mid tier (albeit hard-working & talented) WR helps your cause.

A good offer was presented to Maclin and he was swayed by another. nothing more to it than that. I certainly wish he as here, but I'm not losing sleep over it.
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