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Zero
This guy is saying the offense sucks because of the historically terrible guards for this system. At this point, if he's right, either you put in untested guys who didn't beat out Gardner and Barbre or you need to make adjustments to the system. Right? Here we've got a QB who needs the opportunity to build his confidence, not find himself in another situation like he was in in St. Louis. Sure, he's got better talent at the skill positions, but if there's DL on him quicker than he can blink that won't help much.
QUOTE
Usually, when a team has studs at centre and tackle, guard play can be relatively replaceable. However, Allen Babre and Andrew Gardner have been beyond bad. Their play has been so bad, it functionally leaves the remaining three players on the line on an island, left to work independently. The play of Gardner and Babre has been so bad, it has negatively impacted the talented players around them. Their incompetence is incredibly detrimental to the offense because interior protection, in general, is more important than edge protection. Edge protection can be manufactured in the passing game by short drops, QB pocket movement and interior running game. However, when plays are getting blown up from inside, there is really nowhere for the quarterback to go and it is impossible to run anywhere because defenders get through the middle so easily. The Eagles, in particular, build their offense around the inside zone run and now that the "inside" part of "inside zone run" is barely applicable, the run game is awful.
CT_Eagle
Reading that makes me draw a parallel between Reid's love of passing and not getting quality WRs and Chip's love of inside zone runs and
failing to secure quality guards.

Shit never changes.
mcnabbulous
What is the source on that, Z? I read something this AM that indicated its basically a different culprit on every play. One play Kelce, the next Gardner, the next Celek. Just a total lack of cohesion.
mcnabbulous
Here is the one I was referring to:
http://chipwagon.typepad.com/eagles/2015/0...a-hot-mess.html
Zero
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Sep 23 2015, 10:48 AM) *
What is the source on that, Z? I read something this AM that indicated its basically a different culprit on every play. One play Kelce, the next Gardner, the next Celek. Just a total lack of cohesion.

Sorry should have linked: http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2015/9/...hip-kelly-sucks
Zero
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Sep 23 2015, 10:58 AM) *

That offers more hope than what I read!
JeeQ
Chip Kelly stayed classy and blamed it all on the players today:

QUOTE
“I think we’ve been varied in our two games, and through our preseason and everything, we’ve been doing a different job, changing formations and things like that. When you’re not successful, I think guys are grasping at excuses, to be honest with you. We still need to block and tackle,” Kelly said. “What I’m saying is we need to execute.”


Way to throw all your handpicked players under the bus genius laugh.gif
mcnabbulous
"I've got to do a better job."

OUR COACH IS SUCH AN IDIOT!!!

"Our guys need to execute."

WAY TO THROW THE PLAYERS UNDER THE BUS!!!!
JeeQ
While we're on the subject of buses when is that 12-Win bus finally going to leave the station laugh.gif
mcnabbulous
Better start soon, but unlike you, I'd be bummed if we had a poor season. If things keep going like they are, my prdictions won't be any farther off than yours were though.
D Rock
QUOTE (JeeQ @ Sep 23 2015, 05:50 PM) *
While we're on the subject of buses when is that 12-Win bus finally going to leave the station laugh.gif

As soon as you're under it.

Fake ass fan.
JeeQ
QUOTE (D Rock @ Sep 23 2015, 10:19 AM) *
As soon as you're under it.

Fake ass fan.


We still win 12 this season.

laugh.gif
Eyrie
QUOTE (JeeQ @ Sep 23 2015, 05:26 PM) *
Chip Kelly stayed classy and blamed it all on the players today:



Way to throw all your handpicked players under the bus genius laugh.gif

You expect him to admit that he fucked up on personnel?

You know that, I know that, everyone on here knows that and Kelly probably knows it as well - he just can't bring himself to say that the reason the players can't execute is because his hand picked Gs aren't good enough and if it's not them at fault, it's the guys next to them worrying about them being a weak link.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (JeeQ @ Sep 23 2015, 11:26 AM) *
Chip Kelly stayed classy and blamed it all on the players today:



Way to throw all your handpicked players under the bus genius laugh.gif


First of all....he was referring to every Tom, Dick and Harry coming up with a new excuse for the poor start...not responses or excuses from players..

Secondly...the players have heaped the blame on themselves all by themselves,,,,check with Lane Johnson for one..

Thirdly...the idiot Ben Naten, who penned the article is just another blog moron who is suddenly an expert...ironically the guards graded out ok....

and last time I checked Kelce and Peters are not handpicked by Kelly....

nephillymike
QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Sep 23 2015, 07:23 AM) *
Reading that makes me draw a parallel between Reid's love of passing and not getting quality WRs and Chip's love of inside zone runs and
failing to secure quality guards.

Shit never changes.


True
mcnabbulous
Hint: it's Celek

Which Eagles lineman blows up these plays?
nephillymike
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Sep 23 2015, 08:37 PM) *



Having listened to the "experts" they all said Celek had a horrible day.

Now go out and find the multiple plays the guards blew up during that game and post those vids.

Be careful to include the two where Kelce looked like shit because the OG's didn't do their job.

Look for the after play "I fucked up" clap of the hands.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Sep 23 2015, 10:26 PM) *
Having listened to the "experts" they all said Celek had a horrible day.

Now go out and find the multiple plays the guards blew up during that game and post those vids.

Be careful to include the two where Kelce looked like shit because the OG's didn't do their job.

Look for the after play "I fucked up" clap of the hands.


ummmm...I think it is on you to find them......they should be easy to find since I am sure they are out there just like the Celek ones....

and Kelce looked like shit because he played poorly...it happens....and Peters got beat several times to the outside...was that the guards fault as well?

Reality Fan
and here is an article quoting the guy you said the guards made look bad...

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/eagles..._poor_play.html

mcnabbulous
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Sep 23 2015, 09:26 PM) *
Having listened to the "experts" they all said Celek had a horrible day.

Now go out and find the multiple plays the guards blew up during that game and post those vids.

Be careful to include the two where Kelce looked like shit because the OG's didn't do their job.

Look for the after play "I fucked up" clap of the hands.

I'm sure I can find plays of the guards messing up. My point is that these issues run deeper than guard play. Every guy along the line has played poorly. I also think defenses are messing with timing due to predictability.

The main point is that this thread was started under the assumption that the guards were screwing us. It's simply not true.

You guys want to believe that because you held Herremans and Mathis in such high regards, but they weren't nearly as good as you suggest last year and they're worse this year.

Reality Fan
and both Mathis and Herremans missed half the season last year.....AND...Mathis was on board for the end of the season swoon last year.....

what is funny is the assumption that the guards make the centre and the tackle look bad while not even considering that the tackle and the centre made the guard look good last year...

I am also mystified that some in the media proclaiming our guards as first time starters when Gardner started 8 games last year....
Dr. Claw
QUOTE (JeeQ @ Sep 23 2015, 12:50 PM) *
While we're on the subject of buses when is that 12-Win bus finally going to leave the station laugh.gif


Oh, that's long gone. After the toilet that was game 2... I'd be happy if the Eagles win 7
Reality Fan
Here you go Mikey....

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2015/...ing-on-offense/
Eyrie
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Sep 24 2015, 02:02 PM) *
I'm sure I can find plays of the guards messing up. My point is that these issues run deeper than guard play. Every guy along the line has played poorly. I also think defenses are messing with timing due to predictability.

The main point is that this thread was started under the assumption that the guards were screwing us. It's simply not true.

You guys want to believe that because you held Herremans and Mathis in such high regards, but they weren't nearly as good as you suggest last year and they're worse this year.

Or alternatively we're still pissed that Kelly failed to adequately replace them.

I've repeatedly said that I had no problem with Herremans not being offered a new deal, but the problem was that we did not bring in any Gs to replace him. Yet despite that lack of competition a further need was created by cutting Mathis rather than making the other guys beat him out.

The correct approach was to draft or sign someone to replace Herremans for 2015, and then to replace Mathis in 2016. If Mathis got beat out for this season, then the better guy won the job rather than being gifted it.

QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Sep 24 2015, 04:47 PM) *
and both Mathis and Herremans missed half the season last year.....AND...Mathis was on board for the end of the season swoon last year.....

what is funny is the assumption that the guards make the centre and the tackle look bad while not even considering that the tackle and the centre made the guard look good last year...

I am also mystified that some in the media proclaiming our guards as first time starters when Gardner started 8 games last year....

We have the same Ts and C as last year, so if they were able to cover for Herremans' decline and Mathis being injured, surely they can still compensate for Barbre and Gardner's lack of talent?

Or maybe the drop off in talent from last year is such that the Ts and C are struggling because of the weak links next to them?

Or maybe Peters is showing signs of age? Or maybe Kelce and Johnson just aren't that good?
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Sep 24 2015, 04:28 PM) *
We have the same Ts and C as last year, so if they were able to cover for Herremans' decline and Mathis being injured, surely they can still compensate for Barbre and Gardner's lack of talent?

Or maybe the drop off in talent from last year is such that the Ts and C are struggling because of the weak links next to them?

Or maybe Peters is showing signs of age? Or maybe Kelce and Johnson just aren't that good?


See....you, like the rest of some here just don't get it....

Mathis was out for 8 games last year....Herremans was out for 8 games last year...

who do you think played while they were out?

Gardner STARTED 8 games last year......8!

I hate to break it to everyone but Mathis AND Herremans DID NOT PLAY 16 games each last year....and guess what.....the Eagles moved the ball and scored without them.....although...as I previously pointed out....3 of the 5 games they failed to rush for 100 yards came with Mathis in the lineup including 37 yards against the Panthers.....

But hell.....don't let the facts get in the way of a good story...
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Sep 24 2015, 03:08 PM) *

Thanks for posting, RF. This was, more or less what I thought was happening. Defenses have found the weaknesses in our plays and are exploiting those right off the snap.

While I do think execution is 90% of what makes a play successful, DC's are too smart to not ultimately exploit these things. Frankly, I'm a bit surprised it has taken this long.

Chip needs to figure out a way to add a bit of confusion pre-snap and it needs to start on Sunday.
D Rock
I also find it baffling that there are no audibles or checks to get out if a bad play. The offense seems much more simple in year 3 than what we saw in year 1.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Sep 24 2015, 05:45 PM) *
Thanks for posting, RF. This was, more or less what I thought was happening. Defenses have found the weaknesses in our plays and are exploiting those right off the snap.

While I do think execution is 90% of what makes a play successful, DC's are too smart to not ultimately exploit these things. Frankly, I'm a bit surprised it has taken this long.

Chip needs to figure out a way to add a bit of confusion pre-snap and it needs to start on Sunday.

IMO it boils down to execution. Chips offense is predicated on executing the "simple" plays continuously to establish a tempo. Once the tempo is established the defense is forced to play into your hands. If you can't establish tempo by executing efficiently, the plays will break down because the D has a chance to counter with personnel and positioning.

More importantly, Chip is calling a very basic game plan with very little wrinkles. It's almost like what you expect from teams in the pre-season. The question is, "why?"
Zero
OK, I thought one of the strengths of this offense was it's adaptability. The QB will read the defense and based on what he sees he'll call run or pass.
Phits
QUOTE (D Rock @ Sep 24 2015, 06:41 PM) *
I also find it baffling that there are no audibles or checks to get out if a bad play. The offense seems much more simple in year 3 than what we saw in year 1.

^^This.

mcnabbulous
It might have something to do with the new faces? Phits, your first paragraph seems to answer the second.

From my perspective, execution is crucial -- but it seems as though defenses have found (via slants and stunts) weaknesses in the facade and are exploiting them. Now it's up to Chip to patch the holes. Quickly.

My fear is that it may be one of those bye week fixes.
Reality Fan
and now Baldy weighs in....

By the way Mikey....he was one of the pundits on your list I believe

http://www.philly.com/philly/columnists/pa...nsive_line.html
Zero
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Sep 24 2015, 11:40 PM) *
and now Baldy weighs in....

By the way Mikey....he was one of the pundits on your list I believehttp://www.philly.com/philly/columnists/paul_domowitch/20150925_Scouting_Eagles__offensive_line.html

Let me help you with that link, RF: Here ...
Reality Fan
and here is another one Mikey....go to about the 1:05 mark for Collingsworth comment on the guards....

but hey....what the hell......ride the horse...

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2015/...eagles-edition/
nephillymike
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Sep 24 2015, 04:08 PM) *



I love this stuff.

Thanks for sharing.

I guess there's a way to get PFF premium. I should look into that.

So, they have Gardner, Peters, and Johnson as positives, and Kelce and Barbre as only ever so slightly negative.

OK, it ain't the line, I guess. My guess is they missed a few in their grading but maybe not.

Problem is with quoting PFF, which is fine by me, is you have to quote what they said about Mathis in 2014 and 2013, and quote what they said about Gardner last year.

If you are in on the PFF band wagon, get all in.

Thanks for sharing. I'm a little short on time these days but I can depend on you to show both the pro and con RF points on PFF right? You too Nabby?

What did PFF rate RF's missing the Dallas game for a lady friend?? devil03.gif

Ike Reese said something tonight on Philly Sports talk.

The Eagles ran this offense to the second best overall for 2013-14 with Foles/Sanchez and McCoy and Mathis and Herremans and Maclin. They better be able to run it with Bradford, Murray/Mathews and Gardner and Barbre and Austin/Algholar.

Chip told us so.

Joegrane
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Sep 25 2015, 09:49 PM) *
...
The Eagles ran this offense to the second best overall for 2013-14 with Foles/Sanchez and McCoy and Mathis and Herremans and Maclin. They better be able to run it with Bradford, Murray/Mathews and Gardner and Barbre and Austin/Algholar.

I'm hearing more commentators talking about predictability of the O. Jaws was the latest.

Maybe part of the issue is that a running QB is off the table, maybe due to Bradford and maybe due to the change in interpretation of the rules after the Baltimore preseason game. Has the league essentially squashed the Read Option?

This is too weird. Something is happening that we don't yet understand. The difference in the O is too great. How did the O look unstoppable in the preseason? I know it is "just preseason" but then someone should be able to explain the difference.

Why are D's able to get so much penetration now that we were not seeing in the past? That has been the biggest difference that I've noticed. How many of these are run blitzes?

Are they no longer afraid of getting beat deep so they can gamble on shutting down the run?

Was Chip drinking too much of the Koolaid and has been saving aspects of his playbook for late in the season and playoffs? Maybe he thought that he was going to win based on superior talent against lesser or injured teams.

Teams just don't go from being considered one of the elite teams to being a cellar dweller without serious injuries.

nephillymike
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Sep 24 2015, 10:40 PM) *
and now Baldy weighs in....

By the way Mikey....he was one of the pundits on your list I believe

http://www.philly.com/philly/columnists/pa...nsive_line.html



I'm confused.

He seems to say that the OL sucks which is contrary to PFF's reference?
nephillymike
QUOTE (D Rock @ Sep 24 2015, 05:41 PM) *
I also find it baffling that there are no audibles or checks to get out if a bad play. The offense seems much more simple in year 3 than what we saw in year 1.



This one shocks me more than finding out recently that Maxwell is not a press man CB. I had no idea.

They better get an audible system in rel quick. This is the NFL!
Robberson
QUOTE (Joegrane @ Sep 25 2015, 10:05 PM) *
This is too weird. Something is happening that we don't yet understand.


It's easy to understand what's happening. We have a narcissist head coach who is in the process of eating a big slice of humble pie. Most of his personnel moves have been baffling, if not outright stupid. And he's proven to be incapable of adjustments and game day managing.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Sep 25 2015, 09:49 PM) *
I love this stuff.

Thanks for sharing.

I guess there's a way to get PFF premium. I should look into that.

So, they have Gardner, Peters, and Johnson as positives, and Kelce and Barbre as only ever so slightly negative.

OK, it ain't the line, I guess. My guess is they missed a few in their grading but maybe not.

Problem is with quoting PFF, which is fine by me, is you have to quote what they said about Mathis in 2014 and 2013, and quote what they said about Gardner last year.

If you are in on the PFF band wagon, get all in.

Thanks for sharing. I'm a little short on time these days but I can depend on you to show both the pro and con RF points on PFF right? You too Nabby?

What did PFF rate RF's missing the Dallas game for a lady friend?? devil03.gif

Ike Reese said something tonight on Philly Sports talk.

The Eagles ran this offense to the second best overall for 2013-14 with Foles/Sanchez and McCoy and Mathis and Herremans and Maclin. They better be able to run it with Bradford, Murray/Mathews and Gardner and Barbre and Austin/Algholar.

Chip told us so.


I did not say that Mathis was never good.....I just think his impact, at this point, is over rated..

Also...I think it is the line...the entire line.....they are not in sync at all and I don't get that because they played together quite a bit last year....and my other point is that Gardner started 8 games last year so he is not new to the line...

and as far as Chip Kelly goes?...I lay this all at his feet....I think not forcing Bradford to start going downfield is at the heart of the issue here.......they have guys who can get open.....they are not running plays to actually go to them......they are running crosses constantly as the primary route and the guys downfield are not even getting a look......they need to go deep to keep the defense honest.......I am concerned that 2 teams gambled on Bradford not looking deep and Kelly not calling anything deep and they were right and Kelly did not adapt......that worries me...Algohaer is as fast as Maclin and Huff is as well.....

and if McCoy was here the result would be the same.....it is not the backs....
Eyrie
The major problem in trying to throw long is the amount of penetration that opposing defences are getting, so there is a lack of time to hold the ball whilst a deep play develops. Bradford looks jittery at the moment as a result.

I'd go so far as to say that the key individual right now isn't Kelly for his playcalling, but Stoutland who has to find a way to get our OL to buy time for the passing game and make holes to run the ball. Some semblance of success there will start to give us hope and make defences think twice.
Zero
QUOTE (Joegrane @ Sep 25 2015, 10:05 PM) *
Maybe part of the issue is that a running QB is off the table, ...

They haven't had a running QB since Vick, though.
Zero
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Sep 26 2015, 06:13 AM) *
The major problem in trying to throw long is the amount of penetration that opposing defences are getting, so there is a lack of time to hold the ball whilst a deep play develops. Bradford looks jittery at the moment as a result.

I'd go so far as to say that the key individual right now isn't Kelly for his playcalling, but Stoutland who has to find a way to get our OL to buy time for the passing game and make holes to run the ball. Some semblance of success there will start to give us hope and make defences think twice.
Maybe it's me and my eyes, but it seems like the biggest problem right now is the run blocking. Pass protection isn't nearly the problem.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Zero @ Sep 26 2015, 06:35 AM) *
Maybe it's me and my eyes, but it seems like the biggest problem right now is the run blocking. Pass protection isn't nearly the problem.

I agree with this. I think (hope) Bradford is pressing a bit because the offense is struggling and is trying to make stuff happen.

The and-long situations aren't helping his cause.
Eyrie
QUOTE (Zero @ Sep 26 2015, 12:35 PM) *
Maybe it's me and my eyes, but it seems like the biggest problem right now is the run blocking. Pass protection isn't nearly the problem.

For my eyeball test it seems like the pocket is under pressure every time. I'll focus more on that tomorrow and hope that you're right.

QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Sep 26 2015, 01:16 PM) *
I agree with this. I think (hope) Bradford is pressing a bit because the offense is struggling and is trying to make stuff happen.

The and-long situations aren't helping his cause.

Hopefully that is the case.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Sep 25 2015, 09:49 PM) *
What did PFF rate RF's missing the Dallas game for a lady friend?? devil03.gif


Here is the funny part......she was actually surprised I let her come over because she thought the Eagles were on and I told her they played at 8.........

Good thing I am not in my 20s or I would have missed the entire game......instead I just missed the second half of the first games and the first half of the Eagles game... ac2.gif
Zero
I record every game to insure against the unexpected and unexplainable. There was a game a couple of years ago when the cable was out and I was fulfilling the unexplainable. mad.gif It wasn't funny.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Sep 26 2015, 10:09 AM) *
Here is the funny part......she was actually surprised I let her come over because she thought the Eagles were on and I told her they played at 8.........

Good thing I am not in my 20s or I would have missed the entire game......instead I just missed the second half of the first games and the first half of the Eagles game... ac2.gif



Well, some one had to go there, so I will volunteer to do it!

Your 20's quote could be taken a few ways so I'll take it to its lowest level and ask:

I thought you only missed the two minute drill?...................... laugh.gif

I'm back on Thursday, try the veal...........................
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Zero @ Sep 26 2015, 12:40 PM) *
I record every game to insure against the unexpected and unexplainable. There was a game a couple of years ago when the cable was out and I was fulfilling the unexplainable. mad.gif It wasn't funny.


I usually do......I have recorded every game for the last several years including preseason......I thought my DVR was set for all NFL games and I usually double check early gameday.....my head was in the clouds....lol
Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Sep 26 2015, 02:58 PM) *
Well, some one had to go there, so I will volunteer to do it!

Your 20's quote could be taken a few ways so I'll take it to its lowest level and ask:

I thought you only missed the two minute drill?...................... laugh.gif

I'm back on Thursday, try the veal...........................


ahhhhh...it would be a relief if I could run the 2 minute drill.....my games always go into overtime.....

devil03.gif
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