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mcnabbulous
Seems like a good kid. I would still rather have drafted Allan Robinson, from a pure football player perspective though. There is something about Matthews' game that just doesn't excite me.
nephillymike
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jun 27 2015, 05:52 PM) *
Seems like a good kid. I would still rather have drafted Allan Robinson, from a pure football player perspective though. There is something about Matthews' game that just doesn't excite me.


The guy from Penn State?
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jun 27 2015, 06:08 PM) *
The guy from Penn State?

Yeah. There is tons of excitement about him down in Jacksonville. His athleticism is off the charts. Matthews is a bit too stiff, in my opinion.
Zero
Time will tell. Sometimes the guys with all the talent aren't as successful as the guys with some talent who work harder than everyone else. Where would Michael Vick be today if he had Matthews' mindset as a rookie?

I'm excited to see how Lane Johnson and Zack Ertz do this year after dedicating themselves in the off season.
nephillymike
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jun 27 2015, 06:13 PM) *
Yeah. There is tons of excitement about him down in Jacksonville. His athleticism is off the charts. Matthews is a bit too stiff, in my opinion.



I'll stick with Matthews. Matthews is a good bit faster (4.44 vs 4.57) and probably stronger (21 reps vs. DNL for Robinson, assuming if that was a strength for him he would have lifted). Robinson has the better vertical 39 to 35 -1/2, but I'll stick with our guy. I think Robinson will be decent, but the full attention Matthews had to face as Vandy's offense made him a better player. He had to take everything the opposition threw at him every game where Robinson didn't have that type of attention at PSU.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jun 27 2015, 06:47 PM) *
I'll stick with Matthews. Matthews is a good bit faster (4.44 vs 4.57) and probably stronger (21 reps vs. DNL for Robinson, assuming if that was a strength for him he would have lifted). Robinson has the better vertical 39 to 35 -1/2, but I'll stick with our guy. I think Robinson will be decent, but the full attention Matthews had to face as Vandy's offense made him a better player. He had to take everything the opposition threw at him every game where Robinson didn't have that type of attention at PSU.

Not sure how much PSU football you watch, but that was absolutely not the case during his final two years. He was the offense.

Matthews measurables are great, no doubt. But Robinson is a more fluid athlete. This is based on watching Robinson for two years and Matthews for one.
D Rock
I've looked very hard, and can find NOTHING to dislike about J.Mathews. If your PSU guy turns out to be great, good on him. But, I too am super happy about Mathews from a skills, effort, and culture stand point. He's a badass without the badass attitude. What's not to like?
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (D Rock @ Jun 30 2015, 05:46 PM) *
I've looked very hard, and can find NOTHING to dislike about J.Mathews. If your PSU guy turns out to be great, good on him. But, I too am super happy about Mathews from a skills, effort, and culture stand point. He's a badass without the badass attitude. What's not to like?

Oh I don't dislike Matthews. I'm just not super high on his upside. I think he'll be a very solid contributor. At this point, I'm higher on Agholor.

I think Robinson has some special talent though. He's a more natural athlete from what I've seen.
Reality Fan
Robinson played on a team without a prolific WR or TE and still had less receptions and yards and yards per catch and 2 TDs so I have to ask where his fluid athleticism went?

It is not as if Bortles was any worse than Foles or Sanchez...granted they threw less(60 less completions) but there was no standout target like a Maclin. It seems the rest of the NFL disagrees with you as well since Robinson went 61st. I liked him at PSU but I like Matthews better as a Pro...and really as a college player.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jun 30 2015, 06:05 PM) *
Robinson played on a team without a prolific WR or TE and still had less receptions and yards and yards per catch and 2 TDs so I have to ask where his fluid athleticism went?

It is not as if Bortles was any worse than Foles or Sanchez...granted they threw less(60 less completions) but there was no standout target like a Maclin. It seems the rest of the NFL disagrees with you as well since Robinson went 61st. I liked him at PSU but I like Matthews better as a Pro...and really as a college player.

Is this like the time you told me Eddie Royal was better than DJax because of their stats their rookie years?
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jun 30 2015, 06:19 PM) *
Is this like the time you told me Eddie Royal was better than DJax because of their stats their rookie years?


funny that is the 2nd time you brought up that fantasy.....I may have said Royal had a better rookie season but I never said Royal was better than Jackson....I would love for you to repost that so we can all see the context....please do.

and aren't you the guy who still thinks Gino Smith is a stud?

Now back to the actual post subject which of course you shy away from when facts get in the way.

In college Matthews was the only real threat for Vandy proven by his percentage of catches vs. team completions and he still had a better year than Robinson in either of their final 2 years. I don't get where you see such a difference athletically. Their combine numbers are not that drastically different. Matthews was faster and stronger and a better short cone number and Robinson had a better vertical and long jump....both are gifted athletes.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jun 30 2015, 08:04 PM) *
funny that is the 2nd time you brought up that fantasy.....I may have said Royal had a better rookie season but I never said Royal was better than Jackson....I would love for you to repost that so we can all see the context....please do.


Ask and you shall receive:
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Mar 17 2009, 05:47 PM) *
You can believe that DJ is better than Royal but the fact remains he is not. Royal has better hands and runs better routes and does not easily get knocked off the LOS. DJ is slightly faster but that does not make him better and you are high if you think that Cutler'saccuracy made Royal a 30 catch favorite over DJ. He did not just catch 5 or 10 more balls, he caught 30 more. I assume your reference to the game that was his best was the Tampa game but for not playing marshall endedup with 3 catches, did he get knocked out? It seems he played all 17 games. I don't know a ton about the Broncos, I just check out some things when points are made here. Don't forget that the Broncos spread the ball around as well, but, like when T.O. was here, the studs get the first look. For all Cutler's accuracy, I wonder why he only has 2 more passing TDs and 7 more picks?


QUOTE
and aren't you the guy who still thinks Gino Smith is a stud?

I don't know that I ever said Geno Smith was a stud. I said Geno Smith was worthy of a first round pick and we were a QB needy team. I also said the upside of hitting on a QB outweighed the risks of busting on one. Especially when the alternative is drafting an OL. I still believe he has an opportunity to be a successful NFL QB. He has to curb the turnovers, but lots of great QB's have struggled with those early in their careers.

People always want QB's to throw with anticipation, but they bitch about the growing pains. Especially for a guy that was in an awful situation and should have been given more development time before being thrown into the mix.

QUOTE
Now back to the actual post subject which of course you shy away from when facts get in the way.

What have I shied away from? I explicitly said I like Matthews, but I would rather have Robinson. I can't be any more direct about that.

QUOTE
In college Matthews was the only real threat for Vandy proven by his percentage of catches vs. team completions and he still had a better year than Robinson in either of their final 2 years.

Matthews definitely had a better career. Comparing the statistics of two guys who played on two different teams in two different systems is pretty worthless though.

QUOTE
I don't get where you see such a difference athletically. Their combine numbers are not that drastically different. Matthews was faster and stronger and a better short cone number and Robinson had a better vertical and long jump....both are gifted athletes.

See, here's the thing. This was an opinion. The opinion was derived from my personal experience in watching every game Robinson played in at PSU and a season's worth of watching Matthews. From watching Matthews, I found him to be a bit stiff. Not prohibitively, but enough that I think his upside is limited.

Conversely, Robinson is extremely fluid in both his route running and after the catch. His top-end speed may not be incredible, but I think he has Larry Fitzgerald like jumping ability and ball skills.

Comparing them entirely on statistics in their rookie year, when one plays for an offensive mastermind and the other was playing for Gus Bradley with a rookie QB is a waste of time.

Besides, it's just one man's opinion. Obviously Chip disagreed. Time will tell, but I think Robinson is going to be really special.
mcnabbulous
To the original post, Jordan sounds like a great kid. So does Nelson. Seems like we'll be set there for a long time.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jun 30 2015, 08:37 PM) *
Ask and you shall receive:



I don't know that I ever said Geno Smith was a stud. I said Geno Smith was worthy of a first round pick and we were a QB needy team. I also said the upside of hitting on a QB outweighed the risks of busting on one. Especially when the alternative is drafting an OL. I still believe he has an opportunity to be a successful NFL QB. He has to curb the turnovers, but lots of great QB's have struggled with those early in their careers.

People always want QB's to throw with anticipation, but they bitch about the growing pains. Especially for a guy that was in an awful situation and should have been given more development time before being thrown into the mix.


Ahhh context...we were discussing the 2 players after their rookie years, one where Royal had a far better season...one where he became the no. 2 in NFL history for receptions by a rookie and was 6th or 7th leading WR in the league. Imagine that......hindsight is always 20/20.......Royal battled injuries the following year...the nagging kind and he has never met those expectations since......the fact of the matter was that he was a stud as a rookie and better than Jackson at the time. But you did leave out the injuries Royal had and the hip surgery and the fact that his coach was gone after year one.....but hey...you did cut and paste the snippet.


Gino Smith was easy to forecast as an NFL bust and he is living up to it.


mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jul 1 2015, 04:43 PM) *
Ahhh context...we were discussing the 2 players after their rookie years, one where Royal had a far better season...one where he became the no. 2 in NFL history for receptions by a rookie and was 6th or 7th leading WR in the league.

Right. And I said rookie numbers didn't mean dick and you said he was better. Better hands, better routes, stronger. Better.

So in this thread you said. "I may have said Royal had a better rookie season but I never said Royal was better than Jackson" and I pointed you to a thread in which you said, "Royal has better hands and runs better routes and does not easily get knocked off the LOS." You can twist this however you want, but everyone else can read.

QUOTE
Imagine that......hindsight is always 20/20.......Royal battled injuries the following year...the nagging kind and he has never met those expectations since......the fact of the matter was that he was a stud as a rookie and better than Jackson at the time. But you did leave out the injuries Royal had and the hip surgery and the fact that his coach was gone after year one.....but hey...you did cut and paste the snippet.

So wait, now you're saying that for it not for the injuries, Royal would have been better? Alright, dude.

The point here is that you're making the same, silly, irrelevant argument about rookie WR stats and projecting future success. Matthews will likely have a very nice career. My opinion is that Robinson is a more dynamic WR. Comparing the two based on one season in very different situations is futile.

QUOTE
Gino Smith was easy to forecast as an NFL bust and he is living up to it.

Geno definitely had a high bust factor. He also went to the worst offensive situation in football. He also played about 2 years before he was ready to become an NFL starter.

There are probably 5 guys in the league that would have thrived in that situation in NY the past two years. Even fewer could have done it as rookies and second year players.

But again, assuming a QB will turn out to be a bust is the least risky prediction someone can make. Most QB's don't turn into good NFL players. I mean, that really great rookie QB that Robinson had throwing him the ball didn't fare so well last year. Probably worth declaring him a bust right now.
D Rock
Geno would SUCK Balls where ever he went. He, to put it simply, SUCKS!!!!
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (D Rock @ Jul 1 2015, 06:04 PM) *
Geno would SUCK Balls where ever he went. He, to put it simply, SUCKS!!!!

This may be true, but it doesn't change the reality that most everyone would have sucked in NY the past two years. I think he is going to see significant improvement this season though.

But I'm not trying to turn another thread into a Geno Smith thread.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jul 1 2015, 04:57 PM) *
Right. And I said rookie numbers didn't mean dick and you said he was better. Better hands, better routes, stronger. Better.

So in this thread you said. "I may have said Royal had a better rookie season but I never said Royal was better than Jackson" and I pointed you to a thread in which you said, "Royal has better hands and runs better routes and does not easily get knocked off the LOS." You can twist this however you want, but everyone else can read.


So wait, now you're saying that for it not for the injuries, Royal would have been better? Alright, dude.

The point here is that you're making the same, silly, irrelevant argument about rookie WR stats and projecting future success. Matthews will likely have a very nice career. My opinion is that Robinson is a more dynamic WR. Comparing the two based on one season in very different situations is futile.


Geno definitely had a high bust factor. He also went to the worst offensive situation in football. He also played about 2 years before he was ready to become an NFL starter.

There are probably 5 guys in the league that would have thrived in that situation in NY the past two years. Even fewer could have done it as rookies and second year players.

But again, assuming a QB will turn out to be a bust is the least risky prediction someone can make. Most QB's don't turn into good NFL players. I mean, that really great rookie QB that Robinson had throwing him the ball didn't fare so well last year. Probably worth declaring him a bust right now.


Ummm..the quote you posted was after their rookie season ....you get that , right? You see that? In year 2 you had a new coach come in and suck up the joint , you remember Josh McDaniels? Jackson had Reid who drafted him. Royals was a stud as a rookie and then had a coach come in who wanted him to concentrate on special teams.

But you are right....I did say that Royals was better...because he was....as rookie which was all we had to go on at that point. Jackson had the benefit of stability with his coaching staff to develop. It is pretty funny that you keep leaving out the time frame of those comments.march of 2009....5 months before their 2nd seasons even started...folks can read that too...great stuff.


mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jul 2 2015, 07:18 PM) *
Ummm..the quote you posted was after their rookie season ....you get that , right? You see that? In year 2 you had a new coach come in and suck up the joint , you remember Josh McDaniels? Jackson had Reid who drafted him. Royals was a stud as a rookie and then had a coach come in who wanted him to concentrate on special teams.

You're not this dense, are you?

The thing is, these types of quotes wouldn't stand out so dramatically if you weren't so condescending with each thing you type. You state opinion as fact and try to belittle anyone who calls you on it.

You acted like you knew everything there was to know about Eddie Royal, but later admitted your entire schtick was based on reading what "experts" had said (and his meaningless rookie numbers).

QUOTE
But you are right....I did say that Royals was better...because he was....as rookie which was all we had to go on at that point.

No, he wasn't better. That's what you keep failing to realize. He had a better statistical season. Several variables contribute to those types of things happening. The guy throwing the ball, the teams willingness to give opportunities, injuries, etc...

He had a better statistical season than probably 95% of all WR's in the game. Eddie Royal isn't better than 95% of rookie WRs and he wasn't better his rookie year either.

DJax didn't magically become better the next year. He was better the whole time. If the circumstances were reversed, the results likely would have matched.

QUOTE
Jackson had the benefit of stability with his coaching staff to develop.

No, Jackson had the benefit of being the superior talent. As anyone who isn't a stubborn mule would admit at this point.

QUOTE
It is pretty funny that you keep leaving out the time frame of those comments.march of 2009....5 months before their 2nd seasons even started...folks can read that too...great stuff.

Jeez, you really are obtuse. You don't realize how that situation compares to this one?

This whole pissing match got started because I said that one second year WR is better than another, in my personal opinion. Your unintelligent response was that because of their rookie statistics, my opinion is wrong. I proceeded to point out another time in which you said the same thing. You were wrong. Time will tell if you're wrong this time, but history isn't on your side.

mcnabbulous
Figured I would check in with a little update through the first 6 weeks:

*seasonal projections in parenthesis

Jordan Matthews:
36 receptions (96)
384 yards (1024)
10.7 ypc
1 td (3)

Allen Robinson
25 receptions (78)
488 yards (1301)
17.4 ypc
5 td (13)


Reality Fan
1 for 30 is not bad.....lol
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 20 2015, 03:29 PM) *
1 for 30 is not bad.....lol

I've been way more right than wrong on this board. Especially when it comes to Eagles draft picks. More than happy to bring up a few examples, as you know I like to do. Everyone gets hung up on Geno Smith, but based on the production of the 2013 NFL draft, my opinion on that subject was still correct.

Would the Chiefs be any worse if they had drafted Geno over Eric Fisher? At the very least, they would have a young QB who one of the best QB coaches in the NFL could have been mentoring over the past 3 years. Instead, they are stuck with the dead end that is Alex Smith and have a mediocre RT to show for it.

Unless you have a QB, there is literally no harm in drafting one. The Bills missed completely on EJ Manuel and it hasn't set them back more than any of the other middling offenses in the NFL.

I'd still like to see Geno in this offense. He couldn't be much worse than what we've been getting from Bradford. And he can run.
samaroo
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 21 2015, 05:39 AM) *
I'd still like to see Geno in this offense. He couldn't be much worse than what we've been getting from Bradford. And he can run.

So can Bradford! Didn't you see that gazelle-like scamper for a first down yesterday? It was like watching Randall all over again! biggrin.gif
nephillymike
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 20 2015, 03:39 PM) *
I've been way more right than wrong on this board. Especially when it comes to Eagles draft picks. More than happy to bring up a few examples, as you know I like to do. Everyone gets hung up on Geno Smith, but based on the production of the 2013 NFL draft, my opinion on that subject was still correct.

Would the Chiefs be any worse if they had drafted Geno over Eric Fisher? At the very least, they would have a young QB who one of the best QB coaches in the NFL could have been mentoring over the past 3 years. Instead, they are stuck with the dead end that is Alex Smith and have a mediocre RT to show for it.

Unless you have a QB, there is literally no harm in drafting one. The Bills missed completely on EJ Manuel and it hasn't set them back more than any of the other middling offenses in the NFL.

I'd still like to see Geno in this offense. He couldn't be much worse than what we've been getting from Bradford. And he can run.


You lost me at Geno!!
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 20 2015, 09:20 PM) *
You lost me at Geno!!

I'm not afraid to hold bold, unpopular opinions. How about Robinson? He's damn impressive. And Matthews has been anything but.
nephillymike
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 20 2015, 09:28 PM) *
I'm not afraid to hold bold, unpopular opinions. How about Robinson? He's damn impressive. And Matthews has been anything but.


You went to the court room with what should have been a winning case and you went all Geno on everyone.

The judge threw you out for contempt!!
Robberson
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 20 2015, 04:39 PM) *
I've been way more right than wrong on this board. Especially when it comes to Eagles draft picks. More than happy to bring up a few examples, as you know I like to do. Everyone gets hung up on Geno Smith, but based on the production of the 2013 NFL draft, my opinion on that subject was still correct.


Nobody 'gets hung up' on Geno Smith except you. Everyone here knows he sucks ass, yet you continue trying to deny reality, and we are forced to continue engaging you on the topic. Just give it up.

mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Robberson @ Oct 20 2015, 09:52 PM) *
Nobody 'gets hung up' on Geno Smith except you. Everyone here knows he sucks ass, yet you continue trying to deny reality, and we are forced to continue engaging you on the topic. Just give it up.

Didn't you just join the board?
Robberson
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 20 2015, 09:55 PM) *
Didn't you just join the board?


And in the last month, I must have seen you ramble on about Geno Smith on at least 2 dozen threads. Is this a Jets draft bust board, or an Eagles board?!
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Robberson @ Oct 20 2015, 09:57 PM) *
And in the last month, I must have seen you ramble on about Geno Smith on at least 2 dozen threads. Is this a Jets draft bust board, or an Eagles board?!

Nice try, zed. You haven't been missed.

Still wish we drafted Allen Robinson.
mcnabbulous
Another update!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CV5R0_3XAAERpNd.png
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 10 2015, 05:14 PM) *

It wouldn't matter if we had him. Our QB play has been well below average. He wouldn't achieve those types of numbers in our offense's current incarnation.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Dec 10 2015, 05:32 PM) *
It wouldn't matter if we had him. Our QB play has been well below average. He wouldn't achieve those types of numbers in our offense's current incarnation.

It would definitely matter if we had him. That's ridiculous.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 10 2015, 07:24 PM) *
It would definitely matter if we had him. That's ridiculous.

Which one of our slightly above pathetic QB's would help get him these yards?
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Dec 10 2015, 08:04 PM) *
Which one of our slightly above pathetic QB's would help get him these yards?

Having him match those numbers and him improve our offense are two different things. He's a budding superstar. Our offense would be better with him.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 10 2015, 09:08 PM) *
Having him match those numbers and him improve our offense are two different things.

It wouldn't take much to help improve our offense, so that's not saying much.

QUOTE
He's a budding superstar. Our offense would be better with him.

That's pushing it a bit, don't you think? He's having a very good sophmore season.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Dec 10 2015, 08:17 PM) *
It wouldn't take much to help improve our offense, so that's not saying much.

Got it. You don't think having one of the best young receivers in football would be helpful. Good to know.

QUOTE
That's pushing it a bit, don't you think? He's having a very good sophmore season.

He's on pace for 87/1440/15 with the most 20+ yard receptions in football. It's not pushing it at all. That's well beyond "a nice sophomore season."
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 10 2015, 09:24 PM) *
Got it. You don't think having one of the best young receivers in football would be helpful. Good to know.

You mean in place of the one that we have? Because that's what it would mean to have him. Despite his down season, I still like Jordan Matthews. I think he is a fine young receiver.

QUOTE
He's on pace for 87/1440/15 with the most 20+ yard receptions in football. It's not pushing it at all. That's well beyond "a nice sophomore season."

If he gets those numbers I will concede. I don't think her will.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Dec 10 2015, 09:25 PM) *
You mean in place of the one that we have? Because that's what it would mean to have him. Despite his down season, I still like Jordan Matthews. I think he is a fine young receiver.

As I stated at the beginning of this thread, I watched every game the guy played in college. I can assure you his athleticism and fluidness is on a different level from Matthews. Jordan has a chance to be a fine player. Robinson is going to be (already is really) a star. If he was anywhere other than Jacksonville, you would know more about it.

QUOTE
If he gets those numbers I will concede. I don't think her will.

I don't need your confirmation. I saw this coming before the season, when all the "on paper" data suggested Matthews was the better player. My eyes told me a different story.
Reality Fan
kind of hard to compare the two......Matthews function in this offense is one of crossing routes and generally short yardage completions while Robinson plays outside and runs the deep routes......

He is having a great season....no question.....but they serve very different functions......and I would love have both...
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