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Zero
I don't want to beat the horse, and I didn't fact check this but it's an interesting read on the statistical differences between Bradford and Foles.
QUOTE
... at some point Kelly determined that Foles simply is not the best fit for what they’re trying to accomplish, and when you look at some of these underrated yet key elements to playing the position, you can understand why.

Bradford may not turn out to be the answer, as Chip himself admitted, but if Foles definitely wasn’t the guy, it makes sense to find out if somebody else can be. Bradford was the No. 1 overall pick of the draft in 2010. He got a raw deal with the Rams, who never surrounded him with talent on offense. The injuries are a concern, but Foles hasn’t exactly been a picture of health, either.
nephillymike
If the Rams were such a bad offensive team for QB's, inquiring minds want to know why the backups who played for those teams all had better than career average years??

Bradford may be the answer, but I won't use his Rams play as a reason.
Phits
QUOTE (nephillymike @ May 6 2015, 07:58 AM) *
If the Rams were such a bad offensive team for QB's, inquiring minds want to know why the backups who played for those teams all had better than career average years??

My 2 cents

Normally teams dumb down the playbook to allow the backup to get up to speed. This would help increase their stats. The Rams had a workhorse at the RB position. Despite that they were a low ranking rushing team. That would indicate that teams knew they would depend on the run and force the (backup) QB to beat them, which would also help to inflate the (individual) stats for the backup QB.
Zero
QUOTE (Phits @ May 6 2015, 10:22 AM) *
My 2 cents

Normally teams dumb down the playbook to allow the backup to get up to speed. This would help increase their stats. The Rams had a workhorse at the RB position. Despite that they were a low ranking rushing team. That would indicate that teams knew they would depend on the run and force the (backup) QB to beat them, which would also help to inflate the (individual) stats for the backup QB.

AJ Feeley comes to mind and I'm sure there's a long list that my brain just can't get out.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Zero @ May 7 2015, 07:04 PM) *
AJ Feeley comes to mind and I'm sure there's a long list that my brain just can't get out.

Feeley and Clemmens were the two backups!

AJ had plenty of experience at that point and there was no need to dumb down their offense for him.

Clemmens had already played a few years too.
mcnabbulous
The Rams backups have been awful, what are we talking about here?

Their coaching and talent have been pathetic. There is virtually nothing to judge Bradford on as a professional.
nephillymike
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ May 7 2015, 07:42 PM) *
The Rams backups have been awful, what are we talking about here?

Their coaching and talent have been pathetic. There is virtually nothing to judge Bradford on as a professional.



The theory goes like this.

Bradford had bad stats because the Rams offense was so pitiful. They were holding him back from what he could have been.

Well, if that Rams offense was so pitiful, it surely would have a harmful impact on the stats of those QB's that filled in for Bradford, and would have held them back to, no?

But when those backup had passer rating that were slightly higher than their career averages, then it can't be as bad as we've heard.

Forget that the backups were bad, they were. But they weren't as bad as they were during the rest of their careers.

A real good friend of mine is a big St Louis Rams fan and was a season ticket holder for years and a very good X's and O's guy. He said from day one that yes, Bradford was hurt may times, but in his opinion, he just did not play well and was check down Charlie all to often. Maybe Chip can do his thing with him. I got a feeling if he stays healthy he might. But the bottom line is that Bradford has to improve significantly.
Phits
QUOTE (nephillymike @ May 7 2015, 08:19 PM) *
Feeley and Clemmens were the two backups!

AJ had plenty of experience at that point and there was no need to dumb down their offense for him.

Clemmens had already played a few years too.

New team...new offense....new playbook

QUOTE
The St. Louis Rams claimed Clemens off of waivers from Houston the following day, on December 7.[11]
After an ankle sprain sidelined starting quarterback Sam Bradford and with backup A.J. Feeley out with a thumb injury, Clemens started on December 18 against the Cincinnati Bengals. With only 11 days to get familiar with the team and the offense Clemens passed for 229 yards completing 25 of 36 passes. In that game, he completed a 25-yard touchdown pass to wide receiver Danario Alexander, his first NFL touchdown pass since 2007 with the Jets, but the Bengals won, 20-13. Clemens started the final two games for the Rams, both losses to the Steelers and rival 49ers. He finished the 2011 season with 2 touchdown passes and 1 rushing touchdown, and was re-signed by the Rams.
After Bradford went down with a season-ending injury in week 7 in 2013, Clemens started the final nine games, going 4-5 as the Rams' starter and finished with 1,673 yards, 8 TD's, and 7 INT's.


QUOTE
On March 5, 2010, Feeley agreed to a two-year contract with the St. Louis Rams.[19][20] Although he was in competition for the starting job, #1 pick Sam Bradford won the starting job in the preseason. During the 2011 Regular Season, Feeley replaced an injured Bradford for three games and he led the Rams to a stunning upset of the New Orleans Saints on October 30. It was the first win of the season for St. Louis which entered the game with a 0-and-6 record.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (nephillymike @ May 7 2015, 07:10 PM) *
The theory goes like this.

Bradford had bad stats because the Rams offense was so pitiful. They were holding him back from what he could have been.

Well, if that Rams offense was so pitiful, it surely would have a harmful impact on the stats of those QB's that filled in for Bradford, and would have held them back to, no?

But when those backup had passer rating that were slightly higher than their career averages, then it can't be as bad as we've heard.

Forget that the backups were bad, they were. But they weren't as bad as they were during the rest of their careers.

A real good friend of mine is a big St Louis Rams fan and was a season ticket holder for years and a very good X's and O's guy. He said from day one that yes, Bradford was hurt may times, but in his opinion, he just did not play well and was check down Charlie all to often. Maybe Chip can do his thing with him. I got a feeling if he stays healthy he might. But the bottom line is that Bradford has to improve significantly.

Feeley wasn't. Clemens was, but only compared to an equally awful situation in NY.

The Rams were a dumpster fire. It's really worth disregarding.
Speed_Kills
QUOTE (Phits @ May 6 2015, 10:22 AM) *
My 2 cents

Normally teams dumb down the playbook to allow the backup to get up to speed. This would help increase their stats. The Rams had a workhorse at the RB position. Despite that they were a low ranking rushing team. That would indicate that teams knew they would depend on the run and force the (backup) QB to beat them, which would also help to inflate the (individual) stats for the backup QB.


A lot of truth here and as a long time Ram fan I can add a few things.

* The Rams, by their own admission, failed this guy by NEVER getting him a #1 wr. Ex-GM Billy Devaney has mentioned this many times. He played with cast offs like Mark Clayton (former Raven), Danny Amendola (Cowboys), D Alexander (UDFA), Brandon Gibson (Eagles), Mike Simms-Walker( JAX), Laruent RObinson (take your pick), and on and on and on... Just embarrassing what this guy had to play with and when Fisher finally got him Tavon Austin & Jared Cook Sam took off (14/4 td/int) in 7 games to start 2013 despite no run game whatsoever (Only team in the league WITHOUT a rush TD in first 7 games of 13')

* Despite the above and joining a sad lineup in 2010 (won a total of 5 games the prior THREE seasons to Sam's arrival) he managed 59 td's/38 int's in his Ram career.

If he can get back to 100% health you folks are going to be over the moon happy with the results. The guy is a stud pure and simple. Chip hit the nail on the head, if not for the injuries he would have NEVER been available.

His arm talent is outstanding, LOL I read Z Ertz comments the other day where he said Sam has the strongest arm he's ever seen, Luck included, and that Sam isn't even able to fully step in to his throws yet.

Just wait till camp, the reports will be glowing from the receivers & media.

Pray for health, the kid is due some good fortune. The rest is just waiting to be unleashed.

And make no mistake, Bradford has a huge chip on his shoulder to prove his worth.

Perfect storm.
Zero
Thanks, Speed. Anything insight on the knee injuries? Were these freak things or was there talk of something more ominous? Tied with that, with what you said, why did Fisher give up on him?
Speed_Kills
QUOTE (Zero @ May 10 2015, 09:46 AM) *
Thanks, Speed. Anything insight on the knee injuries? Were these freak things or was there talk of something more ominous? Tied with that, with what you said, why did Fisher give up on him?


A few things here. First the toughness of Bradford will never be in doubt. The dude was brutally hit time and time again his first couple years while that goof Spags was still running the show, and Bradford never left the field (well 1 play in AZ as i recall, only to return and lead the Rams back to victory by throwing 2 long td's). The guy is tough as nails and a real warrior.

As for his ACL injuries, the first in Carolina as he scrambled and was about to step out of bounds he seemed to slow down thinking he was safe when the db inexplicably grabbed him awkwardly from behind/side, I knew immediately it was his ACL.

The second in Cleveland last year in PS when I was only worried if he would be gun shy (it was his second game back, the first vs GB he was money but played only 2 drives 91 was a pin point TD pass)..in Cleveland the more he played in the opening series the more I grew concerned because the offense was wide open, he threw 9-10 passes on one drive (several called back by penalty) and they finally had a 3rd and lone (28?) and I kept thinking "just hand off, don't hold the ball!" but he hit Britt down the seam for 30 yards and a first down!

As I just started to relax it was the next play when he rolls left, stops and gets sort of leg whipped by the DE. Just a weird sort of hit where his knee got hyper-extended but as concerned as I was it wasn't one of those "it's his ACL!" type hits...until the next day when they confirmed it was. I was sick for weeks, trust me.

Fisher was and I believe still is a BIG Sam guy. I don't know if it just got to the point where he and Snead couldn't possible risk a 3rd season without him under center or if he got pressure from above.

Honestly though, if not for a starting caliber QB in return like Foles I don't think Sam gets traded.

All of that said, I think it was a good move for Sam. Fisher is conservative by nature, a run first, and second coach who wants to win with defense.

People talk about how QB friendly Chip's offense is and it's true but I promise you if Bradford is healthy (I'll leave that up to God) he will take this offense by storm, and I can't wait to see it! The guy is as good a human being as there is, he deserves a stretch of great health...and that's all he needs to succeed.
mcnabbulous
Hey Mikey,

This is a nice recap of a game from a few years ago vs. the Panthers. Holy shitballs, his team was bad. He sure doesn't look too dink and dunk to me though:

http://www.reddit.com/r/eagles/comments/35...2013_with_gifs/
Joegrane
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ May 12 2015, 04:59 PM) *
Hey Mikey,

This is a nice recap of a game from a few years ago vs. the Panthers. Holy shitballs, his team was bad. He sure doesn't look too dink and dunk to me though:

http://www.reddit.com/r/eagles/comments/35...2013_with_gifs/


The youtube video of *all* of his throws of 15 yrs and longer also shows that he is not "dink and dunk". I think there were as many drops as there were poorly thrown balls! The guy can chuck it. He also moves nicely in the pocket, much better than Foles and I'm a Foles fan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhLDkYravNA


nephillymike
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ May 12 2015, 03:59 PM) *
Hey Mikey,

This is a nice recap of a game from a few years ago vs. the Panthers. Holy shitballs, his team was bad. He sure doesn't look too dink and dunk to me though:

http://www.reddit.com/r/eagles/comments/35...2013_with_gifs/


From Eagles 24/7 writeup a while ago:

" The 2013 Rams offense was the definition of dink and dunk. Per PFF, only 8.4 percent of Bradford's passes traveled 20+ yards downfield. That ranked 37th out of 40 quarterbacks. Remember last year when it seemed like the Eagles never went downfield once Sanchez took over? Even then, 12 percent of Sanchez's passes went 20+ yards downfield.

Overall, 133 of Bradford's 159 completions in 2013 (83.6 percent) came within 10 yards of the line of scrimmage.

But much of the Eagles' offense the past two years has been about chucking it downfield. They see a lot of single-high looks, and defenses have had to respect the run game. In 2014, the Eagles' passing game produced 63 plays of 20+ yards, third in the league. In 2013, that number was 80, tops in the NFL.

It's fair to wonder whether Bradford can push the ball downfield effectively in this offense.

The tape suggests he can. Bradford's 40.9 percent accuracy mark (PFF) was middle of the pack (21st out of 40). But he shows good touch and doesn't miss a lot of wide-open guys downfield when he has time in the pocket.

Questioning whether Bradford's lack of deep attempts in St. Louis was his fault or offensive coordinator Brian Schottenheimer's fault is fair. In 2013, after Kellen Clemens took over, the Rams still were mostly dink and dunk. Just 10.3 percent of Clemens' passes went 20+ yards downfield (33rd).

But in 2014, Austin Davis ranked 12th in that category (13.7 percent), and Shaun Hill ranked 16th (12.7 percent). Perhaps the Rams made an effort to push the ball downfield more in 2014, or maybe the specific quarterbacks just liked to take more shots.

On tape, there were not a lot of instances where Bradford had guys open downfield and checked it down. But he also didn't seem like much of a risk-taker either."


Read more at http://www.phillymag.com/birds247/2015/03/...C3RJXlrRK6Ei.99

I think Chip will allow him to play at a decently high level. Not sure if it will be at a high enough level.

He does look good in your film, but sounds mediocre in the 24/7 writeup.

He definitely has more throws in his arsenal than Sanchez; you can't ignore the 20 yard out on him. And really, if he sees the field better than Foles did last year, there are guys wide open in this offense all of the time. If he sees them, he should be able to get it to them.

I just don't know if he'll be good enough OR if he'll be $11M of cap room and a 2nd round pick better than Foles.

That's a tall order.
mcnabbulous
He's gonna be great. I'm excited.
samaroo
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ May 13 2015, 11:07 AM) *
He's gonna be great. I'm excited.

Fingers crossed on the first sentence. Ditto on the second, though.
Zero
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ May 12 2015, 10:07 PM) *
He's gonna be great. I'm excited.

If he stays healthy.
QUOTE
"Sam Bradford was as good as it gets when he was coming out of college, and he still can be that. It’s hard to go to a franchise where you’re building," Spagnuolo said. "You talk about the offensive line, that’s a challenge for a young quarterback and yet, he's Offensive Rookie of the Year in 2010."

Spagnuolo also noted that other teams were just as high on Bradford, thanks to a tremendous pre-draft workout he had at Oklahoma.

"I still remember the workout at Oklahoma when we went to watch him, it was outstanding," he said. "I remember talking to Mike Holmgren after that. Mike was at Cleveland at the time, and I want to say they had the fifth or the sixth pick, and he was trying to find any way and every way to get Sam Bradford. He felt that—and coach Holmgren has seen a lot of quarterbacks—he said it was the best workout he’d ever seen."

Linc ...
mcnabbulous
Other than Luck, I can't recall another QB who I was so sure would be a star. I guess Peyton and I was also pretty high on Rivers.

The more highlights I watch of Bradford, the more I'm beginning to believe that few QBs could have succeeded there. Maybe Peyton, maybe Brady, maybe Rodgers. Other than that...I'm not sure about anyone.

I'm also unbelievably impressed with his arm strength. That wasn't something I was so aware of prior to watching him more closely. His deep ball accuracy was something I admired coming out of college, but I'm beginning to realize that it's because his arm is so strong that he can make those throws look so easy.

He's going to thrive here. Knee forbidding.
slip
Trade what was or wasn't offered to the Titans to Seattle for Russell Wilson = 3 to 5 superbowls
D Rock
QUOTE (slip @ May 14 2015, 08:52 PM) *
Trade what was or wasn't offered to the Titans to Seattle for Russell Wilson = 3 to 5 superbowls

You're an imbecile.
mcnabbulous
One of the local bloggers has been reviewing some (maybe all of) Bradford's pro throws and posting vines of the good and bad. There is far more positive than negative in my opinion.

You can check them out here:
https://vine.co/u/931078328650186752

A few stray observations:
- The ball really jumps out of his hand
- His pocket presence is leaps and bounds beyond Foles (as if that should be a surprise to anyone)
- His receivers were the worst I've ever seen. Beyond simply not being able to ever create separation, they dropped an insane amount of passes.
- His OL was almost as bad
- He's going to crush it in Chip's O. I feel bad that I've considered his career a bust based on what he's been working with. He's really going to excel here.

nephillymike
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ May 15 2015, 11:30 AM) *
One of the local bloggers has been reviewing some (maybe all of) Bradford's pro throws and posting vines of the good and bad. There is far more positive than negative in my opinion.

You can check them out here:
https://vine.co/u/931078328650186752

A few stray observations:
- The ball really jumps out of his hand
- His pocket presence is leaps and bounds beyond Foles (as if that should be a surprise to anyone)
- His receivers were the worst I've ever seen. Beyond simply not being able to ever create separation, they dropped an insane amount of passes.
- His OL was almost as bad
- He's going to crush it in Chip's O. I feel bad that I've considered his career a bust based on what he's been working with. He's really going to excel here.

I am warming up to him and think he may be better than average to good, but one nagging thing:

Is he was such a find, why would the Rams want to trade him for Foles? Why would they give up on him?
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (nephillymike @ May 15 2015, 07:21 PM) *
I am warming up to him and think he may be better than average to good, but one nagging thing:

Is he was such a find, why would the Rams want to trade him for Foles? Why would they give up on him?

Because they are oblivious to how bad their offensive coaching has been. Jeff Fisher isn't a good coach.
Zero
QUOTE (nephillymike @ May 15 2015, 09:21 PM) *
I am warming up to him and think he may be better than average to good, but one nagging thing:

Is he was such a find, why would the Rams want to trade him for Foles? Why would they give up on him?

There was a St Louis fan here last week explaining that. I tried finding the post but I'm useless doing that stuff.

If I remember correctly, his take was that Fisher lost confidence in the knee. As pumped as I am to see Bradford run this offense, that is the pit in my stomach. Everyone I listen to on the radio or every 'knowledgeable' pundit I read who offers an opinion on Bradford says essentially the same thing ... rather have Mariota but Bradford will be lights out as long as he can stay on the field.

If you were Fisher what would you have done? Your QB is coming off of two successive knee injuries. You have an up and coming team but need someone to run the offense. You're not drafting high enough to get other than a project and you probably got the same information Kelly got ... you're not getting either Winston or Mariota. You're offered a first rounder for Bradford but where's that taking you? You need a QB who can play now. Where are your options? If you gamble and lose on Bradford and your defense gets you enough wins to keep you out of QB land in 2016 you're in the same place or worse than both you and the Eagles are in now. Kelly is on the other side of that conundrum so they trade gambles and Fisher gets a second rounder to boot.
Speed_Kills
QUOTE (Zero @ May 16 2015, 06:53 AM) *
There was a St Louis fan here last week explaining that. I tried finding the post but I'm useless doing that stuff.

If I remember correctly, his take was that Fisher lost confidence in the knee. As pumped as I am to see Bradford run this offense, that is the pit in my stomach. Everyone I listen to on the radio or every 'knowledgeable' pundit I read who offers an opinion on Bradford says essentially the same thing ... rather have Mariota but Bradford will be lights out as long as he can stay on the field.

If you were Fisher what would you have done? Your QB is coming off of two successive knee injuries. You have an up and coming team but need someone to run the offense. You're not drafting high enough to get other than a project and you probably got the same information Kelly got ... you're not getting either Winston or Mariota. You're offered a first rounder for Bradford but where's that taking you? You need a QB who can play now. Where are your options? If you gamble and lose on Bradford and your defense gets you enough wins to keep you out of QB land in 2016 you're in the same place or worse than both you and the Eagles are in now. Kelly is on the other side of that conundrum so they trade gambles and Fisher gets a second rounder to boot.


Kelly's "gamble" is far less.

The Eagles are in a MUCH easier division not only to win in but for an offense to shine in.

If Bradford goes down Sanchez, limited as he is, could function well enough to where he could be successful for 1 year.

In St. Louis the Rams had paid Sam $50+ mil already and would have paid him this year too if not for Philly offering what Fisher perceives to be a big upgrade over his last 2 back up QB's (Hill & Clemens) on a Ram team that will ask its QB to do FAR LESS than the Eagles QB will be asked to do.

Philly has a 1 year, relatively minor price to pay for a guy who, if healthy (I know) will be a fantastic QB for the next 10 years.

Truth is Bradford has abilities that Foles and most QB's do not.

The one big advantage Foles had in the Eagles offense is he played with dynamic wr's the last 2 years in Macklin & Jackson (when he had his 1 big year) but I like what the Eagles have now and if the kid from USC is as good as I think he is I look for the Eagles offense to soar.

Sam's on a 1 year deal. To me it's NOT a "prove it" deal its a "stay healthy" deal because if he does he is going to be fantastic, not merely because of Chip's offense but because he IS.
Speed_Kills
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ May 15 2015, 12:30 PM) *
One of the local bloggers has been reviewing some (maybe all of) Bradford's pro throws and posting vines of the good and bad. There is far more positive than negative in my opinion.

You can check them out here:
https://vine.co/u/931078328650186752

A few stray observations:
- The ball really jumps out of his hand
- His pocket presence is leaps and bounds beyond Foles (as if that should be a surprise to anyone)
- His receivers were the worst I've ever seen. Beyond simply not being able to ever create separation, they dropped an insane amount of passes.
- His OL was almost as bad
- He's going to crush it in Chip's O. I feel bad that I've considered his career a bust based on what he's been working with. He's really going to excel here.


There is a lot I could add to this video if I had the time and desire. I have seen every single throw this cat has made since college and remember drives vividly. As such, a lot of "same drive' narrative is incorrect. A couple of the "picks" where not because there were flags early in the play against the D, the bomb to Amendola in OT vs SF was called back because they said the opposite side wr lined up incorrectly!, etc.

One thing that does strike me is he has played against such tremendous defenses in the west, and with horribly inferior weapons AND play calling, not to mention OL..

Personally I can't wait to see him play this year.
Zero
I just re-watched Bradford's press conference and was taken with how quickly he processed what was thrown at him. That's not unusual but there was a marked difference between his and Foles. Some of that may have been that Brad was by himself and Nick was sandwiched between the coach and the GM but I just got the sense that Foles responses weren't as quick. I don't mean to diss the guy but if watching both does show a difference.

Bradford Presser

Foles Presser
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