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Zero
Howie can't be happy he got prodemoted. He can't be happy with tire tracks on his back. He can't be happy he's apparently not being called on to do his new job either. The contracts and deals Kelly are making seem to be weak in value even if the new players ultimately help the team get to the next level. The Shady deal should have yielded more, Murray should have been cheaper, Bradford cost too much and Austin cost too much.

It's only money, but overspending limits what a team can do ... duh. I'm thinking Roseman has his resume out already and I hope Kelly has a search going for a replacement he can trust. The Eagles desperately need a value guy who can negotiate and understand value for trades and drafting.
Phits
QUOTE (Zero @ Apr 2 2015, 05:58 AM) *
Howie can't be happy he got prodemoted. He can't be happy with tire tracks on his back. He can't be happy he's apparently not being called on to do his new job either. The contracts and deals Kelly are making seem to be weak in value even if the new players ultimately help the team get to the next level.

Market dictates value. If there is a player available that suits your vision, you go for it....but it might cost you. With that said, sometimes, when the cupboard is bare you have to make due with the scraps. It may not be the best meal, but it does the job.

QUOTE
The Shady deal should have yielded more, Murray should have been cheaper

As a fan base we over value a players net worth. Shady wasn't going to bring have the perceived return that we think we should be getting for him. While I am not enthused by the value of Murray's contract, it is in line with the off-seaosn market for this caliber of RB (akin to McCoy's deal in Buffalo). The $25k question is what value would you expect to get for Shady? Realistically, he wouldn't net you a first or a second round pick in the draft. So getting a young 2nd round (perceived) stud LB in exchange would seem to be fair value.

QUOTE
It's only money, but overspending limits what a team can do ... duh. I'm thinking Roseman has his resume out already and I hope Kelly has a search going for a replacement he can trust. The Eagles desperately need a value guy who can negotiate and understand value for trades and drafting.
Overspending would suggest that there is CAP trouble, when there isn't. While "underspending" often earned them the title of "cheap" or "Cap champions".
mcnabbulous
After getting absolutely nothing for Desean, I can't fathom how someone would suggest we didn't get enough for Shady. A 27 year old, expensive, RB coming off a bad year.
Dreagon
Too early to evaluate y'alls offseason yet. I gotta wait until the draft because some of y'alls free agent moves would make sense if you guys trade on draft day.
BirdsWinBaby
Howie isn't going anywhere. There's only one owner in the league who thinks Lurie's cap prodigy should be picking a team's players.

Watching Joe Banner crash and burn after one season in Cleveland tells other owners all they need to know about Lurie heaping tons of praise on the contracts guy

Howie knows Lurie is his best shot to get back into the GM seat. So he will sip his tea, do whatever terrible contracts Chip wants, and bide his time while waiting for it to blow up. When Chip goes, Lurie will no doubt break into tears at Howie's undying 'loyalty' and of course he gets the title/power back

If that were to happen, the problem I see in that scenario is that if Howie's gets back into the GM job there's NO WAY he will allow another coach to come in that will threaten his stature again.

It was reported that the reason people had trouble working with Howie was because he was so paranoid that people were undermining him. After being unseated so quickly by Chip, Howie will be even worse
JeeQ
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 2 2015, 07:52 AM) *
After getting absolutely nothing for Desean, I can't fathom how someone would suggest we didn't get enough for Shady. A 27 year old, expensive, RB coming off a bad year.


I'm going to remember that 3rd in the league in rushing and 1319 yards is your standard for a bad year

You think it's too late to tell Seattle they overpaid for Marshawn since he's coming off a bad year as well? If they hurry maybe there's a LB with a torn ACL out there they can trade him for
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (JeeQ @ Apr 2 2015, 10:25 AM) *
I'm going to remember that 3rd in the league in rushing and 1319 yards is your standard for a bad year

Using total rushing yards is a waste of my time. Stop wasting my time.

QUOTE
You think it's too late to tell Seattle they overpaid for Marshawn since he's coming off a bad year as well? If they hurry maybe there's a LB with a torn ACL out there they can trade him for

Who said anything about overpaid? I think it was a fair trade. We got a young LB and the Bills got a proven, albeit aging RB.

The Seahawks acquired Lynch when he was 24. What point are you trying to make exactly, beyond proving that you don't know what you're talking about.
JeeQ
I'll admit there was a few themes in there so I'll break them all down for you

You said Shady had a bad year, yet he put up more rushing yards than Lynch...

The same Lynch who Seattle just gave $31M over 3 years too

You said Shady is an aging RB...

Yet both Lynch and DeMarco are both older than Shady

You said Shady is an expensive RB...

True... but he's still cheaper than Lynch, who he out rushed last season in his bad year, and DeMarco & Mathews, who he's just flat out better than
D Rock
QUOTE (Zero @ Apr 2 2015, 10:58 AM) *
Howie can't be happy he got prodemoted. He can't be happy with tire tracks on his back. He can't be happy he's apparently not being called on to do his new job either. The contracts and deals Kelly are making seem to be weak in value even if the new players ultimately help the team get to the next level. The Shady deal should have yielded more, Murray should have been cheaper, Bradford cost too much and Austin cost too much.

It's only money, but overspending limits what a team can do ... duh. I'm thinking Roseman has his resume out already and I hope Kelly has a search going for a replacement he can trust. The Eagles desperately need a value guy who can negotiate and understand value for trades and drafting.

Backs don't bring value any more. They are a dime a dozen. Getting a ProBowl linebacker on his rookie deal, for a back with as much wear on the tires as Shady is nothing short of a coup. How you think anybody would have given more for him is beyond me. NFL execs don't value running backs. Fans do. But fans aren't making these deals. Murray got 7 mil less than what we owed Shady and 8 mill less than Minny owes AP.

I'll agree Austin at 2.3 mill is silly. I'd have offered vet min and sweetened with incentives. Bradford, is a curious situation. QBs are outliers on value. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and Chip clearly likes Sam more than Nick. As a Nick fan, even I have to admit . . . there was scant little to like about his game last year. He looked nothing like he did in 2013 and it had red flags rising all over the place.

mcnabbulous
QUOTE (JeeQ @ Apr 2 2015, 01:16 PM) *
I'll admit there was a few themes in there so I'll break them all down for you

You said Shady had a bad year, yet he put up more rushing yards than Lynch...

The same Lynch who Seattle just gave $31M over 3 years too

Let me be explicitly clear here. I think total rushing yards are irrelevant.

QUOTE
You said Shady is an aging RB...

Yet both Lynch and DeMarco are both older than Shady

I would have traded both Murray and Lynch for a young LB prospect like Alonso. I didn't like the Murray signing. What's your point?

QUOTE
You said Shady is an expensive RB...

True... but he's still cheaper than Lynch, who he out rushed last season in his bad year, and DeMarco & Mathews, who he's just flat out better than

You do acknowledge you're the one that brought Lynch into this conversation, right? I don't care about him. I don't care that the Seahawks overpaid him. That's their problem.
With that said, I will point out that Shady had 13 more yards on 32 more carries. But who cares about that kind of stuff. Not to mention how much better Lynch was as a receiver.

He's better than DeMarco? But, but, but...DeMarco had 526 more rushing yards than him?

I'm so confused.
D Rock
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 2 2015, 11:41 PM) *
Let me be explicitly clear here. I think total rushing yards are irrelevant.


I would have traded both Murray and Lynch for a young LB prospect like Alonso. I didn't like the Murray signing. What's your point?


You do acknowledge you're the one that brought Lynch into this conversation, right? I don't care about him. I don't care that the Seahawks overpaid him. That's their problem.
With that said, I will point out that Shady had 13 more yards on 32 more carries. But who cares about that kind of stuff. Not to mention how much better Lynch was as a receiver.

He's better than DeMarco? But, but, but...DeMarco had 526 more rushing yards than him?

I'm so confused.

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

And there you have it.
samaroo
QUOTE (BirdsWinBaby @ Apr 3 2015, 12:54 AM) *
Howie isn't going anywhere. There's only one owner in the league who thinks Lurie's cap prodigy should be picking a team's players.

Watching Joe Banner crash and burn after one season in Cleveland tells other owners all they need to know about Lurie heaping tons of praise on the contracts guy

Howie knows Lurie is his best shot to get back into the GM seat. So he will sip his tea, do whatever terrible contracts Chip wants, and bide his time while waiting for it to blow up. When Chip goes, Lurie will no doubt break into tears at Howie's undying 'loyalty' and of course he gets the title/power back
If that were to happen, the problem I see in that scenario is that if Howie's gets back into the GM job there's NO WAY he will allow another coach to come in that will threaten his stature again.

It was reported that the reason people had trouble working with Howie was because he was so paranoid that people were undermining him. After being unseated so quickly by Chip, Howie will be even worse

I think this is right on. But what happens if Chip doesn't implode? This hate triangle in the FO can't stay. It's gotta be poisonous. So, assuming Chip stays, Howie's gotta go, doesn't he?
JeeQ
QUOTE
Let me be explicitly clear here. I think total rushing yards are irrelevant.

So what stats are relevant to a RB since rushing yards aren't? Because you go on to use nothing but those irrelevant rushing yards as the sole statistic to judge RBs

QUOTE
I would have traded both Murray and Lynch for a young LB prospect like Alonso


I just have no words for this one...

QUOTE
He's better than DeMarco?


I think so... and according to you, so do you: If You Honestly Think DeMarco Murray Is A Better RB Than Shady McCoy; Say It Now...
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (JeeQ @ Apr 2 2015, 09:24 PM) *
So what stats are relevant to a RB since rushing yards aren't?

YPC is more important to me than rushing yards. Total yards, total yards per touch. Also more important.

QUOTE
Because you go on to use nothing but those irrelevant rushing yards as the sole statistic to judge RBs

Did you eat a lot of paint chips when you were a kid?


QUOTE
I just have no words for this one...

I can't really remember the last time we didn't have a really solid RB. Maybe 1998? They're not hard to come by and they are very replaceable. You can hang on to your dogmatic appreciation for Shady's "special" qualities, but we will be fine without him.

I'll take 8 years of really strong LB play, which is a position we've struggled to get consistent play from for most of the past decade.

QUOTE

I said they were different. Not sure what point you are making. I loved Shady, but his decline was inevitable and getting anything for him is a blessing.
JeeQ
QUOTE
YPC is more important to me than rushing yards. Total yards, total yards per touch. Also more important.


So even though YPC and Total Yards are calculated using... *drumroll* rushing yards as their main factor how is rushing yards an irrelevant stat?

QUOTE
Did you eat a lot of paint chips when you were a kid?


I'll have you know your mother cooked me a wonderful dinner every night... Sure it wasn't the best tasting.. but paint chips? With those kind of critiques it's no wonder she tried to have you aborted... but those clothes hangers can be tricky

QUOTE
I can't really remember the last time we didn't have a really solid RB. Maybe 1998? They're not hard to come by and they are very replaceable. You can hang on to your dogmatic appreciation for Shady's "special" qualities, but we will be fine without him.


12+ wins worth of fine apparently in your estimation

QUOTE
I'll take 8 years of really strong LB play, which is a position we've struggled to get consistent play from for most of the past decade.


Demeco coming off season-ending injury, Kiko coming off season-ending injury, Kendricks is about to be traded... you'll be lucky to get 8 games of strong LB play
samaroo
Can we get back to the thread topic, please? And do we really need mom abortion jokes? Jesus.
Phits
QUOTE (JeeQ @ Apr 2 2015, 11:22 PM) *
So even though YPC and Total Yards are calculated using... *drumroll* rushing yards as their main factor how is rushing yards an irrelevant stat?

Simply, YPC is the more important stat than total yards. It can make the difference between 3rd and short vs 3rd and long. For example, if you gain 100 total rushing yards on 25 (4/YPC) carries vs 50 (2/YPC) carries which is better?

mcnabbulous
I agree with Samaroo*. Lets get this back on the topic at hand.

Howie's best chance of getting back to the role he wants is in Philly. I don't think that happens though. He is a good contract negotiator, but I think he was a poor talent evaluator/GM. I'm not sure who is dictating the terms of the contracts that are being signed right now, but I think several of them have been less than favorable for the Eagles (Murray and Austin specifically)

*Despite only rushing for 812 yards in 2004, Westbrook had a significantly better season than Shady in 2014. That's why total rushing yards are irrelevant to me.
BirdsWinBaby
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 3 2015, 12:49 PM) *
Howie's best chance of getting back to the role he wants is in Philly. I don't think that happens though. He is a good contract negotiator, but I think he was a poor talent evaluator/GM.



any bad contracts that happen now are on Chip. it wont be hard for Howie to sell Lurie on that...

'i knew signing him for that much was a bad idea Jeff, but it was Chip's "vision"...what could i do"

did you hear that clip of Lurie scoffing at the notion of Howie not coming back as GM at seasons end? "whaa, is that a question?" whether Howie was doing a good job or not, He had Lurie's hands-down unwavering support.

i believe he still does...thats how Lurie rolls


Phits
QUOTE (BirdsWinBaby @ Apr 3 2015, 01:02 PM) *
any bad contracts that happen now are on Chip. it wont be hard for Howie to sell Lurie on that...

According to the Eagles' news release (back in January), Roseman will continue "directing contract negotiations, salary cap management and NFL strategic matters, while overseeing the team's medical staff, equipment staff and more.

In essence wouldn't that mean, Chip says I want Player X and proceeds to initiate a discussion with said player and their management team. Once they determine if their is an adequate fit, Howie steps in to negotiate the terms.

I don't see it much different than a manager agreeing that Employee X would make a good addition and then handing it off to "HR" who has already pre-determined the appropriate level/salary and benefits range.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Apr 3 2015, 01:32 PM) *
According to the Eagles' news release (back in January), Roseman will continue "directing contract negotiations, salary cap management and NFL strategic matters, while overseeing the team's medical staff, equipment staff and more.

In essence wouldn't that mean, Chip says I want Player X and proceeds to initiate a discussion with said player and their management team. Once they determine if their is an adequate fit, Howie steps in to negotiate the terms.

I don't see it much different than a manager agreeing that Employee X would make a good addition and then handing it off to "HR" who has already pre-determined the appropriate level/salary and benefits range.

This was my understanding, too. It's nearly impossible to say because of the lack of transparency. If he's not doing it, who is? Marynowitz? I can't imagine Chip wants to get into the minutiae of contract negotiations.
BirdsWinBaby
QUOTE (Phits @ Apr 3 2015, 03:32 PM) *
According to the Eagles' news release (back in January), Roseman will continue "directing contract negotiations, salary cap management and NFL strategic matters, while overseeing the team's medical staff, equipment staff and more.

In essence wouldn't that mean, Chip says I want Player X and proceeds to initiate a discussion with said player and their management team. Once they determine if their is an adequate fit, Howie steps in to negotiate the terms.

I don't see it much different than a manager agreeing that Employee X would make a good addition and then handing it off to "HR" who has already pre-determined the appropriate level/salary and benefits range.


that is my understanding of that statement, i think it worked that way with AR/Banner. so many lies since the shakeup tho so dont know what to believe

it really comes down to whether Howie has the option of telling Chip NO (from the contracts side) when Chip targets a player
Zero
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 3 2015, 05:13 PM) *
This was my understanding, too. It's nearly impossible to say because of the lack of transparency. If he's not doing it, who is? Marynowitz? I can't imagine Chip wants to get into the minutiae of contract negotiations.

Lack of transparency is in vogue these days.

I would think the money side takes a lot more time to digest and be good at and it would tend to detract from the football side that is Chip's expertise. This sounds good IF Chip isn't in the position to tell Howie to do whatever it takes which would have the potential to destroy financial stability insofar as cap management is concerned.
samaroo
QUOTE (BirdsWinBaby @ Apr 4 2015, 06:40 AM) *
it really comes down to whether Howie has the option of telling Chip NO (from the contracts side) when Chip targets a player

I don't think Howie feels he can say no. I think he'd need Uncle Jeffy to tell Chip no. Then again, he might just sign the worst deals on purpose just to make Chip look foolish. Of course, I don't think Chip cares more than he absolutely has to, which really isn't much. So, sounds like a potentially toxic situation to me.

QUOTE (Zero @ Apr 4 2015, 07:47 AM) *
Lack of transparency is in vogue these days.

I would think the money side takes a lot more time to digest and be good at and it would tend to detract from the football side that is Chip's expertise. This sounds good IF Chip isn't in the position to tell Howie to do whatever it takes which would have the potential to destroy financial stability insofar as cap management is concerned.

I take it that Chip is the golden child right now, and will win any stalemates between him and Howie. If/When he blows up, then Howie can point all the fingers. But Lurie made a hell of a statement with the FO restructure this offseason, so he's got to side with "The Man with The Plan" for now, otherwise he'll look silly and incompetent.

Which would be terrible.
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