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nephillymike


#1. Do you want Mariota as your QB this year or would you prefer to stick with Bradford? For purposes of this question, assume you could do a straight up swap, one for one. We give the Jets Bradford and they give us the right to pick Mariota.

In principle, Do you want him??


#2. Do you want him in reality? Suppose the Jets are shopping the #6 and MM is there to be had. That infamous trade value chart has the #6 at 1600 points and the #20 at 850 points.

So here's what we do:

A. trade Bradford to the Browns for the 19th pick (worth 875 points). They were offering that before for him, figure we can get it now. This gives us 1725 points to get 1600 points and in most spots would be close to a fair deal with us paying a premium of a late 3rd round pick (125 pts)

B. Further reality is our premium would have to be sweetened. Let's say we have to throw in our 3rd and 4th (170 and 68 pts) for a further kicker of 238 points for a total premium of 363 points which equates to a mid 2nd round value premium.

Do you do this deal?
Remove the 3rd and 4th round picks and replace them with Kendricks. Do you do this deal?

My answer to #1 is yes, in principle I want Mariota.

My answer to both parts of #2 is yes. In reality I want him and am willing to pay the market premium. If I could chose, I would keep the picks and use Kendricks in the deal and then I would use the picks to get a real player at WR or S or OG. But gun to head, I'd do either. The NFL is strange. The scratch off draft lottery tickets is always worth more than the real thing and for that reason, I think the 2 picks gets us more than Kendricks.

Anyone??
samaroo
I'd say yes in principle. I'd also say yes to the picks, but am more hesitant to give up Kendricks. Which seems weird, as we are pretty stacked at ILB. I think I still say yes, but less enthusiastically.

My caveat to this is this: only if Chip really wants MM. I don't doubt that he does one bit. But I would feel better with MM as our QB than with Bradford, under the assumption that MM is the perfect QB for Chip's system.

tl;dr: yes.
Zero
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Mar 30 2015, 11:26 PM) *
I would keep the picks and use Kendricks in the deal and then I would use the picks to get a real player at WR or S or OG.

I had to reread this a few times. Is this the same man who keeps telling us how much of crap shoot the draft is and how valuable proven players are???

No. I don't want Mariota. I'm very sceptical of his ability to succeed in the NFL (I think Kelly is too) and I think the team would ultimately be better if they keep their proven players. IMO, the picks should be used for BPA. Keep Bradford, draft a QB in round two or three who can sit and learn for a year or two and build the defense to championship caliber.

Are you really willing to give up one of our best blitzers, a sideline to sideline ILB who can cover ... for an unknown?
Eyrie
#1 - I'll trust Kelly to know if Mariota can make the transition to the NFL.

#2 - A straight trade of Bradford for #19, followed by sending #19 and #20 to the Jets would be fine. I'm not interested in creating further holes in the roster by including players or using draft picks that are required for the existing holes.
D Rock
Get MM. That is all.
samaroo
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Apr 1 2015, 03:34 AM) *
#1 - I'll trust Kelly to know if Mariota can make the transition to the NFL.

#2 - A straight trade of Bradford for #19, followed by sending #19 and #20 to the Jets would be fine. I'm not interested in creating further holes in the roster by including players or using draft picks that are required for the existing holes.

#1 - Exactly my feelings.

#2 - I would be way more than okay with this, but I don't think it'll be enough. But here's to hoping! I also agree with the "creating holes" thing. I know DeMeco is our Mufasa. And I have seen Kiko play dominately in the NFL, and think he will for us. But Kendricks could be, too. I really don't want to lose his versatility and athleticism at such a crucial position.

BTW, does anyone remember that Bills fan who said their plan was for Kiko to play OLB? Anybody think that might happen here? That we might start Meco and Kendricks and have Graham and Kiko trade snaps opposite Barwin?
JeeQ
#MariotaOrBust
nephillymike
QUOTE (Zero @ Mar 31 2015, 05:15 AM) *
I had to reread this a few times. Is this the same man who keeps telling us how much of crap shoot the draft is and how valuable proven players are???

No. I don't want Mariota. I'm very sceptical of his ability to succeed in the NFL (I think Kelly is too) and I think the team would ultimately be better if they keep their proven players. IMO, the picks should be used for BPA. Keep Bradford, draft a QB in round two or three who can sit and learn for a year or two and build the defense to championship caliber.

Are you really willing to give up one of our best blitzers, a sideline to sideline ILB who can cover ... for an unknown?


Ahhh, Z my man. You know me well, but you interpret my confusing verbage not so well.

I would keep the picks, not because I want the scratch off lottery they represent, but because I know that other teams covet them more than real players, and I think I can get more by trading them than Kendricks. I get rid of Kendricks because we don't need three starting ILB's and we have some depth coming back off injury plus we signed the guy from GB. When you have gaping holes like we do, you can't afford the luxury of a starter on the bench.

So, I keep the picks and then trade the picks before or during the draft to get REAL NFL players (ie existing guys we know who can play!!)

By offering a 3rd and 4th round pick, I should be able to get two solid starters at positions of need. Not all pros. Maybe guys with a higher salary, but when we lineup on Sunday's, I'll have two more solid starters and the teams I trade my picks to will have two scratch offs to use May 1st!!

Follow me now??

samaroo
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Apr 1 2015, 10:54 AM) *
Ahhh, Z my man. You know me well, but you interpret my confusing verbage not so well.

I would keep the picks, not because I want the scratch off lottery they represent, but because I know that other teams covet them more than real players, and I think I can get more by trading them than Kendricks. I get rid of Kendricks because we don't need three starting ILB's and we have some depth coming back off injury plus we signed the guy from GB. When you have gaping holes like we do, you can't afford the luxury of a starter on the bench.

So, I keep the picks and then trade the picks before or during the draft to get REAL NFL players (ie existing guys we know who can play!!)

By offering a 3rd and 4th round pick, I should be able to get two solid starters at positions of need. Not all pros. Maybe guys with a higher salary, but when we lineup on Sunday's, I'll have two more solid starters and the teams I trade my picks to will have two scratch offs to use May 1st!!

Follow me now??

I don't want to undervalue Meco's value to this team, not just on the field. And I get that Kendricks' age makes him a more tradeable commodity, but am I the only one that would rather keep Mychal around over Ryans?
nephillymike
QUOTE (samaroo @ Mar 31 2015, 09:40 PM) *
I don't want to undervalue Meco's value to this team, not just on the field. And I get that Kendricks' age makes him a more tradeable commodity, but am I the only one that would rather keep Mychal around over Ryans?


I hear you.

I look at it this way.

IMO, this team is better with Ryans at ILB plus the player we get for trading Kendricks than we would be with Kendricks at ILB and the player we get for trading Ryans.

In 2013 Ryans was the better of the two as Kendricks ran fast but many times not in the right direction.

Last year Kendricks was the better of the two.

Chip had the balls in his annual meeting with reporters last week to mention that Kendricks was hurt for four games!!

This is a guy who signs every player coming off a season on the IR he can get!!

I think Chip doesn't like Kendricks and he's on his way out because of it. He probably already made the decision that he won't be resigning him after this year so why not get something for him now.
samaroo
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Apr 1 2015, 11:54 AM) *
IMO, this team is better with Ryans at ILB plus the player we get for trading Kendricks than we would be with Kendricks at ILB and the player we get for trading Ryans.

When you put it that way, it makes more sense. Plus, LBs usually can play at a high level into their 30s. If healthy.


QUOTE
Chip had the balls in his annual meeting with reporters last week to mention that Kendricks was hurt for four games!!

I think Chip doesn't like Kendricks and he's on his way out because of it. He probably already made the decision that he won't be resigning him after this year so why not get something for him now.

Yeah, I thought that sounded odd, too. I only read the quote, didn't see video or hear audio, but it read a little snarky. Maybe he just doesn't like Mychal like you suggest, but I can't see why. He's a little short, I guess, but he seems to have all the tangibles Chip would like. He's fast, and has really, really improved the last couple years. I know the NFL is speed-crazy, but ILB is one of the positions where speed can really be devastating, IMO. He just seems like someone you want on the team, is all.

So, if we can turn Kendricks into MM, or a starting-caliber S, or a #1/#2 WR, or a G, than I guess I'd feel better about it. And I'd much rather do that than just let him play out his contract and walk away.
nephillymike
So we got four yes votes for the deals.

One yes to a lesser deal, (which is the Scotish way of saying no to the proposed deal. What do you want from a country that uses "whilst")

And one person who would rather have Bradford/Sanchez than Mariota.

Seems like most avoided the question as it must be a successful uncomfortable "on the record" question.

Hmmmm.........................................
samaroo
Maybe it's time for one of those pre-season sticky threads like: "Put up or shut up! Who will be the Eagles starting QB in week 1!!" to go along with our (inevitable) record prediction thread.
Zero
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Mar 31 2015, 09:54 PM) *
Follow me now??
I think I got that the first time, but my base point is that everyone is assuming how great Mariota will be. He's completely unproven in the NFL, Kendricks has tape. It's not that I'm going to go fetal if Chip trades people and drafts him, but as a card carrying DKD I'm being conservative and want to lessen the opportunity for disaster. Mariota may not be what people assume he will be ... crap shoot and the inconsistency of your argument IMO.

Isn't it possible that Bradford is a one-year experiment and mentor for a different, less costly rookie? If he stays healthy and plays to his potential they re-sign him, have a young guy in the wings and either a commodity in Sanchez or a deep bench of QBs? If Bradford doesn't stay healthy, he's gone and they're down to Sanchez and the rookie who hopefully is progressing and capable. That way they also have the WR, CB or S they drafted with their first pick they didn't trade away and a very good LB corps. The only thing they've lost is 2015 cap, and in 2016 that's irrelevant.
D Rock
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Apr 1 2015, 02:54 AM) *
I hear you.

I look at it this way.

IMO, this team is better with Ryans at ILB plus the player we get for trading Kendricks than we would be with Kendricks at ILB and the player we get for trading Ryans.

In 2013 Ryans was the better of the two as Kendricks ran fast but many times not in the right direction.

Last year Kendricks was the better of the two.

Chip had the balls in his annual meeting with reporters last week to mention that Kendricks was hurt for four games!!

This is a guy who signs every player coming off a season on the IR he can get!!

I think Chip doesn't like Kendricks and he's on his way out because of it. He probably already made the decision that he won't be resigning him after this year so why not get something for him now.

Chips problem with Mychal seems to be not that he was injured. He's not scared away by ACL tears or legitimate injury keeping players out. But when a guy misses 4 games because of a soft tissue injury (calf strain), that's more of a problem. He's got to be tough enough to play through that kind of thing. ACLs are certainly an excuse to miss work. But a muscle strain is not. Mychal is not "tough" enough for Chip. That's what I'm seeing when reading between the lines.
JaxEagle
NO
samaroo
QUOTE (Zero @ Apr 1 2015, 06:28 PM) *
I think I got that the first time, but my base point is that everyone is assuming how great Mariota will be. He's completely unproven in the NFL, Kendricks has tape. It's not that I'm going to go fetal if Chip trades people and drafts him, but as a card carrying DKD I'm being conservative and want to lessen the opportunity for disaster. Mariota may not be what people assume he will be ... crap shoot and the inconsistency of your argument IMO.

Isn't it possible that Bradford is a one-year experiment and mentor for a different, less costly rookie? If he stays healthy and plays to his potential they re-sign him, have a young guy in the wings and either a commodity in Sanchez or a deep bench of QBs? If Bradford doesn't stay healthy, he's gone and they're down to Sanchez and the rookie who hopefully is progressing and capable. That way they also have the WR, CB or S they drafted with their first pick they didn't trade away and a very good LB corps. The only thing they've lost is 2015 cap, and in 2016 that's irrelevant.

That's definitely not out of the question, but I'd rather Chip get a QB he thinks can be a star (MM) than a QB who might work out (Hundley, etc.)

QUOTE (D Rock @ Apr 2 2015, 01:20 AM) *
Chips problem with Mychal seems to be not that he was injured. He's not scared away by ACL tears or legitimate injury keeping players out. But when a guy misses 4 games because of a soft tissue injury (calf strain), that's more of a problem. He's got to be tough enough to play through that kind of thing. ACLs are certainly an excuse to miss work. But a muscle strain is not. Mychal is not "tough" enough for Chip. That's what I'm seeing when reading between the lines.

I hadn't thought of that. That's interesting...
JeeQ
QUOTE (samaroo @ Mar 31 2015, 08:18 PM) *
Maybe it's time for one of those pre-season sticky threads like: "Put up or shut up! Who will be the Eagles starting QB in week 1!!" to go along with our (inevitable) record prediction thread.


I draft Mariota and do whatever it takes to do so... he's my Day 1 starter and he plays every down until his throwing arm falls off...

As for my record prediction... Clearly I don't see 12 wins coming if Bradford is our QB at the start of this season. I already know what Bradford can do... he can tear ACLs and not make the playoffs
nephillymike
QUOTE (Zero @ Apr 1 2015, 04:28 AM) *
I think I got that the first time, but my base point is that everyone is assuming how great Mariota will be. He's completely unproven in the NFL, Kendricks has tape. It's not that I'm going to go fetal if Chip trades people and drafts him, but as a card carrying DKD I'm being conservative and want to lessen the opportunity for disaster. Mariota may not be what people assume he will be ... crap shoot and the inconsistency of your argument IMO.

Isn't it possible that Bradford is a one-year experiment and mentor for a different, less costly rookie? If he stays healthy and plays to his potential they re-sign him, have a young guy in the wings and either a commodity in Sanchez or a deep bench of QBs? If Bradford doesn't stay healthy, he's gone and they're down to Sanchez and the rookie who hopefully is progressing and capable. That way they also have the WR, CB or S they drafted with their first pick they didn't trade away and a very good LB corps. The only thing they've lost is 2015 cap, and in 2016 that's irrelevant.


I think MM is less of a performance and less of an injury risk than Bradford.

You have seen what he can do in this system AND he adds a dimension that makes the most important facet of our offense, the running game, more lethal.

I think Foles is less of a performance risk and less of an injury risk than Bradford and costs 11M more.

I don't think you pay $11M more for a one year experiment. I don't think he's talented enough that you bank on him for the long term.

I think Bradford is trade bait.

we'll see.
samaroo
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Apr 2 2015, 12:09 PM) *
I think MM is less of a performance and less of an injury risk than Bradford.

You have seen what he can do in this system AND he adds a dimension that makes the most important facet of our offense, the running game, more lethal.

I think Foles is less of a performance risk and less of an injury risk than Bradford and costs 11M more.

I don't think you pay $11M more for a one year experiment. I don't think he's talented enough that you bank on him for the long term.

I think Bradford is trade bait.
we'll see.

I agree with this. However, I think Bradford has more upside than Foles, but more risk of injury. But I'm really hoping to get MM. I know Chip keeps downplaying it, but I would love to see this offense being run by a QB with some wheels.
nephillymike
QUOTE (samaroo @ Apr 1 2015, 10:44 PM) *
I agree with this. However, I think Bradford has more upside than Foles, but more risk of injury. But I'm really hoping to get MM. I know Chip keeps downplaying it, but I would love to see this offense being run by a QB with some wheels.



FWIW, NFL.com Bucky Brooks has him going to SD at the 17th pick.

Maybe we'll get lucky.

What we need to do, is give him a joint, unlike Clinton, have him inhale, and then get him tested. That should do the trick!!
Zero
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Apr 2 2015, 06:22 AM) *
What we need to do, is give him a joint, unlike Clinton, have him inhale, and then get him tested. That should do the trick!!
Call Cheech and Chong! laugh.gif
JeeQ
Given Chip's history of "Not Being Able To Believe A Fucking Thing He Says To The Media"... him saying we weren't going for Mariota sealed the deal for me that we're doing whatever it takes to get Mariota
Birdman420
To answer the questions:

Yes get MM, But please don't trade away kendricks... Our LB core could be legendary with the current lineup we have and I haven't been this excited about our defense since trotter/dawk/asante(Bobby taylor)

I think it's slightly unfair to compare Bradford to foles even though they have similar upsides and downsides. I consider foles to be much more of an injury risk simply because his injuries were upper body related(his money maker) whereas bradford's injuries are lower body(he can't run anyway). If i had to choose a pocket passer with a string of upper body bangups or lower body I would chose bradford over foles.

Another interesting thing I noticed about Foles was that his basic fundamentals were sooooo far off this past season. He kept throwing off his back foot and shying away from stepping into his throws- This was a complete turnaround from the previous year and I suspect that unless he fixes this straight away he will just be another pick throwing machine.

When you are a starting QB and your fundamentals are out of whack you cannot expect to be a starter for much longer. I've mentioned before that I think foles&Shady suffered from similar problems, they are scared of contact and shy away from the designed plays. For Shady it was after he hit his head in the 3rd(4th?) game of the year... never the same shady since. Foles came back from his injury and was never the same QB after that.

I don't really know but I think chip has an ability to read the writing on the wall and predict trends with his players playing abilities. If he decides to go all in for MM then we will see what he gets from a player of his choosing and it will be a very fun year to watch.
samaroo
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Apr 2 2015, 07:22 PM) *
FWIW, NFL.com Bucky Brooks has him going to SD at the 17th pick.

Maybe we'll get lucky.

What we need to do, is give him a joint, unlike Clinton, have him inhale, and then get him tested. That should do the trick!!

Yep. I'm hoping for a slide. If we could get him without trading up, or trading past 10 or so, that would be the coup of the decade! Bridgewater was supposed to be cream of the crop last year, and he fell, so...here's to hoping! cheers.gif
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