Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Is Murray better than Shady?
Eagles Forum > Philadelphia Eagles Message Board > Philadelphia Eagles or Football Related Discussion
samaroo
Okay, I've been on Football Outsiders too much today. It's really slow at work, don't judge me.

Anyway, found this snippet on the site talking about the difference between "Boom and Bust" RBs vs. North-South runners. It's real short, so I'll just paste it here:

QUOTE
If their overall yards per carry are equal, a running back who consistently gains yardage on every play is more valuable than a boom-and-bust running back who is frequently stuffed at the line but occasionally breaks a long highlight-worthy run.
Our brethren at Baseball Prospectus believe that the most precious commodity in baseball is outs. Teams only get 27 of them per game, and you can't afford to give one up for very little return. So imagine if there was a new rule in baseball that gave a team a way to earn another three outs in the middle of the inning. That would be pretty useful, right?

That's the way football works. You may start a drive 80 yards away from scoring, but as long as you can earn 10 yards in four chances, you get another four chances. Long gains have plenty of value, but if those long gains are mixed with a lot of short gains, you are going to put the quarterback in a lot of difficult third-and-long situations. That means more punts and more giving the ball back to the other team rather than moving the chains and giving the offense four more plays to work with.

The running back who gains consistent yardage is also going to do a lot more for you late in the game, when the goal of running the ball is not just to gain yardage but to eat clock time. If you are a Baltimore Ravens fan watching your team with a late lead, you don't want to see three straight Justin Forsett stuffs at the line followed by a punt. You want to see a game-icing first down.


I definitely think McCoy is the better RB in a vaccuum, but Chip's a thinker, and I think he was thinking something along these lines.
nephillymike
That makes sense.

The only thing I would counter with, and not sure how you would factor it in, is the HR hitter in Shady will have certain drives he will make shorter because he hits a HR run and will eliminate drive killing turnovers that may be incurred with the extra possession time that is required by using a back like Murray or Matthews.
samaroo
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Mar 25 2015, 07:23 PM) *
That makes sense.

The only thing I would counter with, and not sure how you would factor it in, is the HR hitter in Shady will have certain drives he will make shorter because he hits a HR run and will eliminate drive killing turnovers that may be incurred with the extra possession time that is required by using a back like Murray or Matthews.

Yep, you are no doubt right. Reading into the thinking behind their analyses, it seems pretty right on. And I think Chip would rather have a significantly higher percentage of getting the next first down than a slightly higher percentage of hitting a home run. I mean, what's our ratio of huge plays to 3 and outs?
D Rock
Like I said in another thread . . .

# of plays means more in Chip's world that most other offensive stats. Shady's style of running kept # of offensive plays down, both by leading to more 3 and outs AND by hitting on the occasional "home run."

4 yards, 4 yards, 4 yards, is better than zero yards, -2 yards, 20 yards in Chip's world. I don't disagree.
Eyrie
QUOTE (D Rock @ Mar 25 2015, 03:02 PM) *
Like I said in another thread . . .

# of plays means more in Chip's world that most other offensive stats. Shady's style of running kept # of offensive plays down, both by leading to more 3 and outs AND by hitting on the occasional "home run."

4 yards, 4 yards, 4 yards, is better than zero yards, -2 yards, 20 yards in Chip's world. I don't disagree.

I'd agree with that, but then I've spent most of the last couple of years moaning about the focus on ToP rather than snaps when evaluating whether our defence should be tired because our offense was so damned fast.
koolaidluke
There totally different types of runners. Murray is an inside runner whereas Shady excelled on the outside zone.

I think Murray can be effective on outside zone runs, but don't think he'll be as good as mccoy was. Although he is a much better receiver and blocker so it more than evens out.
koolaidluke
There totally different types of runners. Murray is an inside runner whereas Shady excelled on the outside zone.

I think Murray can be effective on outside zone runs, but don't think he'll be as good as mccoy was. Although he is a much better receiver and blocker so it more than evens out.
Birdman420
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Mar 25 2015, 03:34 PM) *
I'd agree with that, but then I've spent most of the last couple of years moaning about the focus on ToP rather than snaps when evaluating whether our defence should be tired because our offense was so damned fast.


Then MAYBE there is something to sconces speaking out about being overworked? Was he trying to save what he had in the tank for game day because he knew the defense would be on the field all day?


Anyway this was my exact points(in different english)when I responded to an earlier post about MY opinion that Murray was a better RB then Mccoy.... Sorry I just love it when I'm actually right about something for a change.

Football fans(and gm's/owners) got caught up in the oohhs and ahhhss of having supremely gifted star players on their teams and the spectacular plays they produce bring in the fanfare and give us something to talk about albeit a loss. Chip is getting us back to the basics of doing what you gotta do to win games, It's about the team and no specific player holds seniority over anyone else.

Is Chips team going to be the most talented players in the NFL? doubt it, but what I don't doubt is that he will be leading a team of gentlemen(in a perfect world)to a superbowl or two

complete babble but that's what I bring to this forum
JeeQ
Shady will be the next former Eagle to enter the Hall Of Fame wearing another team's jersey... you heard it here first
nephillymike
FWIW, BWest said today that Shady told him point blank that they never asked him to redo his deal.

They didn't want HIM.
D Rock
QUOTE (JeeQ @ Mar 25 2015, 10:38 PM) *
Shady will be the next former Eagle to enter the Hall Of Fame wearing another team's jersey... you heard it here first

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
samaroo
QUOTE (JeeQ @ Mar 26 2015, 07:38 AM) *
Shady will be the next former Eagle to enter the Hall Of Fame wearing another team's jersey... you heard it here first

I don't think that's out of the realm of possibility. And I don't think anyone here has said or thinks that McCoy is not an outstanding RB.

This is gonna sound like a Disney movie line, but I think Chip is trying to build the best team, not get the best players. Stars and scrubs is a viable fantasy strategy, but doesn't seem to work in the NFL (see: Redskins.)
Zero
I keep hearing that Shady was just OK in blitz pickup and that both Murray and Mathews are much better. Kelly just traded for an injury plagued QB and it may be that he has a rookie QB playing. Add this to a smart guy realizing his defense needs to get off the field and it makes sense that the home run hitter wouldn't be as valuable to him as the guy who consistently gets on base ... moving the chains. In baseball a home run doesn't end the inning, in football that long ass run or deep pass shortens the inning and ultimately tires (weakens) the defense. You want the defense off the field but not because the other team scores. Number of plays may be more important to Chip than TOP, but the math ends up in the same place if you ask me.
Dreagon
All I can say is that a healthy Murray made Romo's life a whole lot easier. Also, while I don't think it's the whole story, it's not lost on me that we have a much better record in the year that he plays all sixteen games.
JeeQ
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Mar 25 2015, 04:44 PM) *
FWIW, BWest said today that Shady told him point blank that they never asked him to redo his deal.

They didn't want HIM.


I keep telling them that, but they don't want to listen...
JeeQ
QUOTE (Dreagon @ Mar 26 2015, 09:19 AM) *
All I can say is that a healthy Murray made Romo's life a whole lot easier. Also, while I don't think it's the whole story, it's not lost on me that we have a much better record in the year that he plays all sixteen games.


No disrespect to Murray but the best benefit for him and Romo was having the best O-Line in the league. When the Eagles had the best O-Line in the league Foles and Shady put up record breaking numbers... Soon as that O-Line was injured Foles ended up a St. Louis Ram and Shady ended up a Buffalo Bill
samaroo
QUOTE (JeeQ @ Mar 27 2015, 06:24 AM) *
I keep telling them that, but they don't want to listen...

I think everyone gets that. I think it's really obvious given who they signed (and targeted in Gore) and how much they spent. Chip wanted a bruiser, not a dancer. Period.

It's still amazing to me how healthy McCoy stayed given his style and build, and how little he fumbled given that he held the ball like he thought it was icky.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2017 Invision Power Services, Inc.