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nephillymike
Here's how the QB situation could play out:

1. Keep Foles for this year and either resign Sanchez if he's interested as a backup or find another veteran backup.

2. Do what is takes to get Mariota, keep Foles as backup.

3. Do what it takes to get Mariota, trade Foles, and find another backup.

In two of the three options, backup QB is an issue. Assuming the price is about the same, which it should be AND assuming neither of the three get starters gigs, which is not a reach, which would you want for backup:

A. Mark Sanchez
B. Jake Locker
C. Michael Vick

I think, gun to my head, I go MV7. Sanchez would be my second choice. Locker has never showed anything. If you compare the two, Vick's arm and legs give us more options than Sanchez. A better skill set. MV weaknesses are also Sanchez', the turnover. Same weakness, more upside.

Anyone?
Zero
Don't know much about him but from what I've read I'd stay away from Locker. Between Vick and Sanchez ph34r.gif, who cares? Either one could carry for a couple of games and neither would get the team to the promised land.
D Rock
Screw the backup QB. If he has to start 2 or more games (whoever he is) our season is toast.

I'm moving closer and closer to the "do whatever it takes to get Mariota" camp being of the mind that we need to "go all in on Chip."

If it doesn't work, move on. Rebuild.

But dicking around for another 5 years in this half assed approach to Kelly-ball isn't going to do much for anybody. If we believe in the Chippa, go all in. It may work. It may not. But we'll know sooner than later and that's a big plus in my mind.

Phits
QUOTE (D Rock @ Feb 15 2015, 05:43 PM) *
But dicking around for another 5 years in this half assed approach to Kelly-ball isn't going to do much for anybody. If we believe in the Chippa, go all in. It may work. It may not. But we'll know sooner than later and that's a big plus in my mind.

Yep.
HOUSEoPAIN
We're not going anywhere without a big upgrade on defense. The Genius's offense at Oregon and here proves that. Give Foles one more chance, bring back Sanchez if he accepts a small contract as a backup, and BEEF UP THE GODDAM SECONDARY!
nephillymike
QUOTE (D Rock @ Feb 15 2015, 05:43 PM) *
Screw the backup QB. If he has to start 2 or more games (whoever he is) our season is toast.

I'm moving closer and closer to the "do whatever it takes to get Mariota" camp being of the mind that we need to "go all in on Chip."

If it doesn't work, move on. Rebuild.

But dicking around for another 5 years in this half assed approach to Kelly-ball isn't going to do much for anybody. If we believe in the Chippa, go all in. It may work. It may not. But we'll know sooner than later and that's a big plus in my mind.

Au contraire DRock!

Was the 2013 season over when Vick went down?

Was the 2009 season over when Donovan went down?

Was the 2002 season over when McNabb got hurt and then when Detmer got hurt?

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

The backup QB is an important part of any football team. It is an important decision.

A big part of me does agree with the "all in" on Chip's style of offense approach.
nephillymike
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Feb 15 2015, 07:21 PM) *
We're not going anywhere without a big upgrade on defense. The Genius's offense at Oregon and here proves that. Give Foles one more chance, bring back Sanchez if he accepts a small contract as a backup, and BEEF UP THE GODDAM SECONDARY!



What if we were getting two new starting DB's in FA?

Would you be OK with a big trade for Mariota then?
Eyrie
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Feb 16 2015, 12:21 AM) *
We're not going anywhere without a big upgrade on defense. The Genius's offense at Oregon and here proves that. Give Foles one more chance, bring back Sanchez if he accepts a small contract as a backup, and BEEF UP THE GODDAM SECONDARY!

Agreed.

QUOTE (nephillymike @ Feb 16 2015, 12:29 AM) *
What if we were getting two new starting DB's in FA?

Would you be OK with a big trade for Mariota then?

No, because we have three gaping holes in our secondary and need a high draft pick for the other spot in your scenario.

I understand DRock's logic of going all in with Kelly but ultimately that is too big a risk. If Kelly was that desperate to get Mariota then he should have started Barkley when Foles went down.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Feb 15 2015, 07:29 PM) *
What if we were getting two new starting DB's in FA?

Would you be OK with a big trade for Mariota then?


In theory, if you could guarantee they will play at a high level for the next 3-4 years, and we don't have to completely piss away our top picks for the next couple years. But you can't.

I think the big problem I have, as I mentioned a few times, is that there seems to be a perception that he needs Mariota, and only Mariota, and if we don't mortgage the franchise for Mariota then we're doomed and we never gave him a chance. Fuck that, if The Genius can't find another way to win a championship (much less win a playoff game sometime) then he's a fraud. On that note, if he goes 'all in' and it doesn't work, he'll give us the finger and leave us with the bill as he goes back to college. I'm very worried about what he's got planned, I think he's going to go for it.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Feb 16 2015, 02:21 PM) *
If Kelly was that desperate to get Mariota then he should have started Barkley when Foles went down.


Very good point. Further, instead of grabbing his crotch after getting eliminated from playoff contention and declaring vengeance on the Giants, if getting Mariota was his plan he could've started Barkley that game, gotten a sure loss, and moved up 4? spots in the draft. Don't get me wrong, I always want to beat the Giants, but from his point of view.
samaroo
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Feb 16 2015, 09:27 AM) *
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?


I laughed at this!

QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Feb 17 2015, 08:45 AM) *
I'm very worried about what he's got planned, I think he's going to go for it.


I'm kind of leaning towards DRock's opinion of late. If he goes for it, at least it would be an honest effort with nothing held back.

I'm sick of almost/sorta/kinda in contention.

I'm sick of feeling like the Birds aren't willing to do whatever it takes.

I'm sick of reading Mike's bitchy rants every offseason about how much money they didn't spend.

If Chip is here, and he has a plan, and he (seems to) really want to win, and we* believe in him, let him do it his way. Whatever else this team has been doing hasn't worked.

* "We" in this case meaning fans, but also FO, including Lurie.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE
If Chip is here, and he has a plan, and he (seems to) really want to win, and we* believe in him, let him do it his way.


While he made several stupid 'I'm smarter than you' decisions in his first year, I was totally behind him and what he was doing, as we all were.

.....then he cut DJax, seemingly because he has an attitude.

.....then we drafted Marcus Smith in the first round.

.....etc., etc., etc. Then he got defensive when people started suggesting a change from Fletcher, or that keeping his D on the field for 40 minutes wasn't a great idea.

The honeymoon's over. And I am very concerned about giving him absolute power and mortgaging the franchise for Mariota, when he could just shrug his shoulders and get a top paying job in college again if it doesn't work, while we sit in the basement.

QUOTE
Whatever else this team has been doing hasn't worked.


Like making shitty personnel decisions, specifically on defense. Draft defense.


samaroo
I totally get what you're saying, HoP. But, we have to go (gulp) all in one way or the other. Either Chip does it his way, and we let him, or we get someone else and keep treading water like we have been. This "somewhere in the middle" stuff is killing me. Chip's here, he's different, he wants to shake things up...let him! What's the worst that can happen? A(nother) decade without a trophy?!? Been there...

They brought Chip here because they liked his "vision" and all that. So, give him his tools and let him execute it. If it doesn't work, fine, he's gone and we'll suck a little more for a little while longer. But what definitely won't do it is handcuffing him. That hasn't worked for anybody, anywhere.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (samaroo @ Feb 16 2015, 07:55 PM) *
I totally get what you're saying, HoP. But, we have to go (gulp) all in one way or the other. Either Chip does it his way, and we let him, or we get someone else and keep treading water like we have been. This "somewhere in the middle" stuff is killing me. Chip's here, he's different, he wants to shake things up...let him! What's the worst that can happen? A(nother) decade without a trophy?!? Been there...

They brought Chip here because they liked his "vision" and all that. So, give him his tools and let him execute it. If it doesn't work, fine, he's gone and we'll suck a little more for a little while longer. But what definitely won't do it is handcuffing him. That hasn't worked for anybody, anywhere.


Well, one thing's for sure - he's gonna do what he wants, he's got the power. All we can do is hope it works.
samaroo
Amen! Here's to hope! It's all we have in the offseason!
nephillymike
QUOTE (samaroo @ Feb 16 2015, 07:27 PM) *
I'm sick of reading Mike's bitchy rants every offseason about how much money they didn't spend.



I'm sick of writing them!!
nephillymike
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Feb 16 2015, 07:48 PM) *
While he made several stupid 'I'm smarter than you' decisions in his first year, I was totally behind him and what he was doing, as we all were.

.....then he cut DJax, seemingly because he has an attitude.

.....then we drafted Marcus Smith in the first round.

.....etc., etc., etc. Then he got defensive when people started suggesting a change from Fletcher, or that keeping his D on the field for 40 minutes wasn't a great idea.

The honeymoon's over. And I am very concerned about giving him absolute power and mortgaging the franchise for Mariota, when he could just shrug his shoulders and get a top paying job in college again if it doesn't work, while we sit in the basement.



Like making shitty personnel decisions, specifically on defense. Draft defense.


What if the removal of Jackson from our future plans was Chip's decision he made in January (which Lurie has said).

What if getting a return for this asset was Howie's (makes sense to me)

I was always Ok with getting rid of Jackson. I was never OK with getting nothing for him.

To me, the ROI dept would seem to be Howie's area.

Last year. This year it is not.
Phits
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Feb 16 2015, 07:48 PM) *
And I am very concerned about giving him absolute power and mortgaging the franchise for Mariota, when he could just shrug his shoulders and get a top paying job in college again if it doesn't work, while we sit in the basement.

Like samaroo said in an earlier post; If it doesn't work, then we fall to the basement and the better draft picks ensue. What harm is in that? Otherwise we can remain a mid tier team and be semi-competitive.

If this is his program, we should be all in with his vision. If it doesn't work he gets fired (or quits) and we move on to the next...
Eyrie
QUOTE (Phits @ Feb 17 2015, 03:58 AM) *
Like samaroo said in an earlier post; If it doesn't work, then we fall to the basement and the better draft picks ensue. What harm is in that? Otherwise we can remain a mid tier team and be semi-competitive.

If this is his program, we should be all in with his vision. If it doesn't work he gets fired (or quits) and we move on to the next...

Erm ... how about the draft is a crap shoot?

If Kelly blows everything on Mariota and it doesn't work out, then we'll have to start from ground zero. There will be a lot of holes to fill as we will have an entire year where the draft contributed nothing. How many people backing the "all for Mariota" approach will console themselves that it seemed like a good idea at the time when we're facing another 4-12 season as we rebuild from the 4-12 seasons that got Kelly fired and Mariota released?


Phits
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Feb 17 2015, 02:39 PM) *
Erm ... how about the draft is a crap shoot?

That's primarily why I don't value the picks. Unless there is a target that you feel fits your needs to a "T".


QUOTE
If Kelly blows everything on Mariota and it doesn't work out, then we'll have to start from ground zero. There will be a lot of holes to fill as we will have an entire year where the draft contributed nothing. How many people backing the "all for Mariota" approach will console themselves that it seemed like a good idea at the time when we're facing another 4-12 season as we rebuild from the 4-12 seasons that got Kelly fired and Mariota released?

I can only speak for myself, but I would rather win or lose by going all in with a vision. We have dealt with the "patchwork" method and achieved some moderation of success with the previous regime. In other words trust the architect with the right tools and the time to build his vision.
samaroo
QUOTE (Phits @ Feb 18 2015, 04:59 AM) *
I can only speak for myself, but I would rather win or lose by going all in with a vision. We have dealt with the "patchwork" method and achieved some moderation of success with the previous regime. In other words trust the architect with the right tools and the time to build his vision.


This is what I'm saying. I wouldn't mortgage a season for Mariotta if I were in charge. But if that's what Chip wants to do, then I say go for it! I'm sick of being mediocre because of hedged bets. One vision should drive us. If Chip is the guy, let him be the guy! If he's not, than we'll move on. He can't be worse than everybody else we've ever had. He can't get negative Lombardi's!

This goes for the FO, too. Spend the money that Chip needs spent on the players he wants. Sink or swim as a unit.

Time's Chips.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Feb 17 2015, 02:39 PM) *
Erm ... how about the draft is a crap shoot?

If Kelly blows everything on Mariota and it doesn't work out, then we'll have to start from ground zero. There will be a lot of holes to fill as we will have an entire year where the draft contributed nothing. How many people backing the "all for Mariota" approach will console themselves that it seemed like a good idea at the time when we're facing another 4-12 season as we rebuild from the 4-12 seasons that got Kelly fired and Mariota released?



You well know my opinion of the draft.

However, wouldn't you agree that a QB who has run this offense to near perfection at the college level, for this coach, who, ignoring the sytem paremeters is deemed by almost all as being a top 10 talent, has a lot LESS risk than most draft picks.

I can see it as Mariota being less risky than the five or so draft picks we give up for him.

Also, a way too hedge your risk for 2015? Keep Foles and let the best QB play.
Birdman420
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Feb 17 2015, 10:54 PM) *
You well know my opinion of the draft.

However, wouldn't you agree that a QB who has run this offense to near perfection at the college level, for this coach, who, ignoring the sytem paremeters is deemed by almost all as being a top 10 talent, has a lot LESS risk than most draft picks.

I can see it as Mariota being less risky than the five or so draft picks we give up for him.

Also, a way too hedge your risk for 2015? Keep Foles and let the best QB play.



+1

yup

The position of Head Coach was contracted to Chip Kelly, His responsibility is simple- Implement his vision (Edit: "with total authority")

It's time to strap in boys and girls, it's going to be an interesting off-season!
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE
However, wouldn't you agree that a QB who has run this offense to near perfection at the college level, for this coach, who, ignoring the sytem paremeters is deemed by almost all as being a top 10 talent, has a lot LESS risk than most draft picks.


Near perfection, yes. And when he runs into elite teams with good defenses, like our offense, he fails. I don't think I'd feel that much better if we went from one-and-dones (or barely missing the playoffs) to another decade of NFCCG losses, and maybe a Super Bowl loss here or there - and that was WITH a great defense and a star QB (the opinions and revisionist history of hater dipshits notwithstanding). We're going absolutely nowhere without improving our defense and maintaining our talent at other positions, which is the whole point of the draft.

QUOTE
Also, a way too hedge your risk for 2015? Keep Foles and let the best QB play.


laugh.gif

Sorry pal. If we go up there and grab Mariota, he's PLAYING. And while even I would give him time before skewering him, you better freaking believe he better start winning on day one! Or else Chip is going to see just how different South Philly and Eugene really are.....
Eyrie
QUOTE (Phits @ Feb 17 2015, 07:59 PM) *
That's primarily why I don't value the picks. Unless there is a target that you feel fits your needs to a "T".

I can only speak for myself, but I would rather win or lose by going all in with a vision. We have dealt with the "patchwork" method and achieved some moderation of success with the previous regime. In other words trust the architect with the right tools and the time to build his vision.

But what if the price of that "all-in" is too high?

QUOTE (nephillymike @ Feb 18 2015, 02:54 AM) *
You well know my opinion of the draft.

However, wouldn't you agree that a QB who has run this offense to near perfection at the college level, for this coach, who, ignoring the sytem paremeters is deemed by almost all as being a top 10 talent, has a lot LESS risk than most draft picks.

I can see it as Mariota being less risky than the five or so draft picks we give up for him.

Also, a way too hedge your risk for 2015? Keep Foles and let the best QB play.

Mariota may be less risky than each of the five picks we give up for him, but in total? What are those five picks?

Say they're this years first three picks and next year's first two. We could reasonably expect one excellent and two good starters from those picks - is Mariota worth more than that by himself?
samaroo
It seems like there's a lot of people hesitant to go for MM because his price would be too high. AND there's a lot of people who say the draft is a crap shoot.

If it's a crap shoot, then that devalues picks, which lowers MM's price tag. You can't have it both ways.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (samaroo @ Feb 18 2015, 06:29 PM) *
It seems like there's a lot of people hesitant to go for MM because his price would be too high. AND there's a lot of people who say the draft is a crap shoot.

If it's a crap shoot, then that devalues picks, which lowers MM's price tag. You can't have it both ways.


A few positions are crapshoots, because of how hard it is to transition from college to the NFL. QB is the worst of them all. Usually a dominant college WR or defensive player will translate to a dominant NFL player, at least among the higher valued picks. For every Peyton Manning, there's 10 Ryan Leafs. When you 'earn' a top 5 pick, fine, go for it. When you have to give up several high picks in order to roll the dice on a dominant college QB (who, as we've seen, can't beat elite college defenses), it seems too much of a stretch.
samaroo
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Feb 19 2015, 08:34 AM) *
A few positions are crapshoots, because of how hard it is to transition from college to the NFL. QB is the worst of them all. Usually a dominant college WR or defensive player will translate to a dominant NFL player, at least among the higher valued picks. For every Peyton Manning, there's 10 Ryan Leafs. When you 'earn' a top 5 pick, fine, go for it. When you have to give up several high picks in order to roll the dice on a dominant college QB (who, as we've seen, can't beat elite college defenses), it seems too much of a stretch.


Yeah, I understand that thinking, but that's not what I'm seeing (here and elsewhere.) Also, like Mike put up somewhere else, what 1st/2nd round picks wouldn't you trade for MM that we've made in the past? We haven't hit a Luck-like homerun with a high pick in a long while, unless I'm forgetting someone...
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (samaroo @ Feb 18 2015, 06:38 PM) *
Yeah, I understand that thinking, but that's not what I'm seeing (here and elsewhere.) Also, like Mike put up somewhere else, what 1st/2nd round picks wouldn't you trade for MM that we've made in the past? We haven't hit a Luck-like homerun with a high pick in a long while, unless I'm forgetting someone...


And as I've said before, if our logic is 'our picks will suck anyway so let's do it,' then our problems are much deeper than we can imagine.
D Rock
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Feb 18 2015, 08:35 PM) *
We could reasonably expect one excellent and two good starters from those picks - is Mariota worth more than that by himself?

Not at our recent success rate.
samaroo
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Feb 19 2015, 10:09 AM) *
And as I've said before, if our logic is 'our picks will suck anyway so let's do it,' then our problems are much deeper than we can imagine.


Agreed, for sure. But my point isn't that our picks have sucked more or less than other teams. IMO, the draft IS a crap shoot, worse at some positions for sure. But if the % of a hit on any player in the draft is as low as it seems, than why is it so scary to trade for what is seemingly a higher hit % player?

I think we would've taken ODB last year if he had been available. Would you trade him for MM?

What about our first 4 picks from last year for MM. Would you make that trade?

This is all based on the supposition that MM has a better shot at being good-to-great here than other prospects, so to some extent, it's a thought excercise. But it's the offseason, and I'm bored, I guess.

But, if we did make a splash and get MM, it would, if nothing else, make this offseason WAY more exciting!
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE
I think we would've taken ODB last year if he had been available. Would you trade him for MM?


He's arguably the best WR in the game - after not even playing a full rookie season. I wouldn't trade him for anything short of half a roster full of high picks.

QUOTE
What about our first 4 picks from last year for MM. Would you make that trade?


I would trade our entire draft from last year for MM. Again, doesn't mean we should do it now, just because we had a shitty draft. Apologies to Jordan Matthews who could end up being very good.

QUOTE
But, if we did make a splash and get MM, it would, if nothing else, make this offseason WAY more exciting!


Agreed. Hopefully Chip will give the media something before he's mandated to.
Eyrie
QUOTE (D Rock @ Feb 19 2015, 01:22 AM) *
Not at our recent success rate.

Which wouldn't bode well for Mariota - in the length of time it takes to announce our pick he'll go from potential HoF if drafted by another team to just another Eagles bust.

It's the off season, so I'm entitled to unrealistic optimism and a prediction that we'll have another draft on par with 2002 eventually.
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