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nephillymike
I will make two different statements and rate your agreement level from 10 highest agreement to 1 strongest disagreement.

1. Mariota will be a better QB for Chip's Eagles than Nick Foles in 2015.


2. Mariota will be a better QB for Chip's Eagles than Nick Foles in 2016.


I'll start.

I say 4 to the first statement and 8 to the second statement.

If that is the case, why not get Mariota?

And, if that is the case, why not keep Foles and Mariota for 2015. Foles is under contract and he's cheap and frankly did not distinguish himself enough last year to lay claim to an incumbant starter's job. Where else can you find a more competent starter and/or upper echelon backup for $800K.

Chip always says you need two QB's in the NFL. Any problem with this tandem? I'm Ok with it. A tendem of Foles Sanchez is not as appealing to me.

Anyone?
Zero
I guess I'd be a 3 and 7 respectively. 2015 would be a steep NFL learning curve for Mariota and he looks like he'd need to put in a lot of work in the weight room if he's going to be able to take the hits.

The reason "why not" get him is solely based on the price. The team has too many needs to sacrifice a lot of roster building. We've learned the hard way that FA should be limited to filling a couple of holes and the draft is more about building and depth.

If Marynowitz/Kelly proves capable of getting talent in the middle and later rounds and if they can get a couple of solid players in FA then sacrificing a couple of picks this year is OK. I just don't want to go into two, three years of mortgaging for a player who may not be what we hope he is.

I'm no fan of Joe Theesman, but he had a point when he suggested a two year "prove it" extension for Foles. Not sure Foles would do it, but it's a good idea for the Eagles. If not, and the Rams offer you #10 for him, do you do it? If you can essentially trade Foles, #20 and another premium pick for Mariota do you do it? Better yet, if you can trade Nick for #10 and get Mariota there keeping #20, is that a no-brainer? You trade away an NFL starter for a shiny unknown leaving you with no proven NFL starting QB.
Zero
Talent evaluation ain't perfect. Sometimes the one's you miss on turn out to be busts other times:
QUOTE
Aaron Rodgers, as you remember and have been told countless times, was passed over for Alex Smith for the first overall pick in the 2005 NFL Draft and slipped all the way to the Packers at no. 24. Rodgers had the apparent misfortune of playing at Cal under Jeff Tedford in a system that had seen Kyle Boller, Joey Harrington, Akili Smith, and David Carr flourish in college and flail in the pros. The prevailing opinion amongst anonymous NFL scouts quoted by the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel’s Bob McGinn at the time was that Rodgers was also of this mold. A sampling:

AFC scout: “He’s a system quarterback. 3-, 5-, 7-step guy. Can’t create on his own. Panics under pressure. Gets flustered easy. I don’t think there’s a quarterback in the draft worthy of a first-round pick. I’m dead serious. None of them are worth it.”

AFC scout: “I don’t like him. He’s a clone of Harrington and Boller. They all throw the same way. What have those guys done? Nothing. If you take him in the second round, fine. Heady guy. They do a marvelous job of coaching quarterbacks there. I don’t think he’s as good as the top quarterbacks coming out last year.”


Of the nine anonymous scouts quoted in the piece, six said or implied that Rodgers was a system quarterback, another said Alex Smith was a better athlete, and a different one said that “there are some things that are just ordinary about him.” These quotes are all ones to keep in mind as NFL Draft Smear Season begins in the next couple months. If these scouts and team architects are so clairvoyant, how do Chris Borland and Russell Wilson get passed over twice by each team? Are these some of the same ones that were dismissing Michael Sam?

Linc ...
Zero
And then there's this:
QUOTE
Looking at Mariota for the past two seasons, I don't see similarities to Rodgers in their play at the collegiate level. The Ducks' standout is an explosive athlete (6-4, 225 pounds) with exceptional speed, quickness and burst on the perimeter. He excels at executing various zone-read concepts and is comfortable using his legs to make plays on the perimeter. As a passer, Mariota displays above-average arm strength and adequate footwork. He is fairly accurate on short and intermediate throws to stationary targets, but has trouble making pinpoint tosses on anticipation or timing routes over the middle of the field. To be fair, he is rarely asked to make these throws in Oregon's system due to the volume of run-action passes featured in the playbook. Mariota routinely throws slants, "pop" passes and seam routes following a zone-read fake, so he rarely makes a conventional drop back and throw without some form of a play fake to hold second-level defenders (linebackers and/or strong safety). This system routinely puts a designated defender in a bind and asks the quarterback to hand the ball off or throw based off the defender's reaction. This allows Mariota to hit his primary read on nearly 90 percent of his passes, allowing the quarterback to function efficiently as a passer in the system.
Here ...
SAM I Am
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Feb 10 2015, 10:46 PM) *
I will make two different statements and rate your agreement level from 10 highest agreement to 1 strongest disagreement.

1. Mariota will be a better QB for Chip's Eagles than Nick Foles in 2015.


2. Mariota will be a better QB for Chip's Eagles than Nick Foles in 2016.


I'll start.

I say 4 to the first statement and 8 to the second statement.

If that is the case, why not get Mariota?

And, if that is the case, why not keep Foles and Mariota for 2015. Foles is under contract and he's cheap and frankly did not distinguish himself enough last year to lay claim to an incumbant starter's job. Where else can you find a more competent starter and/or upper echelon backup for $800K.

Chip always says you need two QB's in the NFL. Any problem with this tandem? I'm Ok with it. A tendem of Foles Sanchez is not as appealing to me.

Anyone?

Level of agreement for numbers one and two is 1, because you left out a third and factual statement.

3. Mariota won't be coming here

Which is the one I will give an agreement level of 10.
JaxEagle
QUOTE (SAM I Am @ Feb 11 2015, 01:08 PM) *
Level of agreement for numbers one and two is 1, because you left out a third and factual statement.

3. Mariota won't be coming here

Which is the one I will give an agreement level of 10.

I so hope you are right. The scout that called him Harrington or Boller has it right in my opinion.
nephillymike
http://www.phillymag.com/birds247/2015/02/...a-fit-eagles/2/

The article above makes some good points.

He fits like a glove!
Zero
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Feb 14 2015, 04:01 PM) *
http://www.phillymag.com/birds247/2015/02/...a-fit-eagles/2/

The article above makes some good points.

He fits like a glove!

So, if Kelly can fill major defensive holes in FA are you ok with him doing a Ditka to get Mariota and sacrificing team depth?
nephillymike
QUOTE (Zero @ Feb 14 2015, 04:33 PM) *
So, if Kelly can fill major defensive holes in FA are you ok with him doing a Ditka to get Mariota and sacrificing team depth?



I'm torn. Most topics are easy for me to pick a side. Not this one.

1. I like Foles and although I was very disappointed in last year's performance, I'd like to see him be the guy. He was a dream come true in '13. It couldn't be a complete fluke.

2. I am one of the few who take the approach that you can address immediate needs in FA, and address the rest of the needs with the draft. This is especially true with where we are as a team and the ages of our better players. So by my approach, I go out and get 2 CB's and a S in FA and after cutting Sconces, I have plenty of cap room to do that. As I've shown before we have plenty of cap room to do almost anything. I would have no problem resigning Maclin for top big dollar. Caveat here is that the Eagles don't spend to the level that I advocate. They like 15% of the cap in the cap bank.

3. With what is said in #2, by getting the 3 impact players in FA and addition by subtraction of Sconces, you have no need for anyone in this draft to start on D to help this team. So it is no longer a trade up for Mariota and sacrifice the ability to get starting defensive players in pos of need. It is, as you say, trade up for Mariota at the sacrifice of depth. I'm OK with that. Besides, not many first round DB's are solid starters in year one of the NFL.

4. I think the strongest point the guy made was that we are a running offense first (man is that music to my ears), and as such, a QB with his run threat will open the running game that much more and will make the passes down field that much easier.

I still don't know. But let's do this. Offer me a trade. Tell me what I need to give up to go from #20 to #5 (assumes that if #1 or #2 want him, they won't trade out so we have to get up before the NYJ).

What do I need to give up to move up and I'll weigh my options.

To move up I need to give up pick #20 + ???

Let me know and we'll go from there.
Zero
The point was a Ditka ... everything this year. The potential killer here is that the cap is increasing and there may not be many FAs on the open market. But we'll assume the defensive holes are filled in FA.

On the plus side, there is some, albeit questionable depth at weak spots like OL and LB - they may be able to add to that via waiver wire, cut downs and low level FA. Not a solid plan, but they'd also be keeping Foles as insurance and as a Pedersen for Mariota. They'd need growth from some of the '14 rooks (Huff, Smith and Watkins mostly) plus players like Carroll, Hart and Long and Ryans would have to return from his injury. The team won a lot of games last year with questionable QB play, poor secondary and backups at different spots throughout the year. Maybe they don't need as much as we think.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Zero @ Feb 14 2015, 07:14 PM) *
The point was a Ditka ... everything this year. The potential killer here is that the cap is increasing and there may not be many FAs on the open market. But we'll assume the defensive holes are filled in FA.

On the plus side, there is some, albeit questionable depth at weak spots like OL and LB - they may be able to add to that via waiver wire, cut downs and low level FA. Not a solid plan, but they'd also be keeping Foles as insurance and as a Pedersen for Mariota. They'd need growth from some of the '14 rooks (Huff, Smith and Watkins mostly) plus players like Carroll, Hart and Long and Ryans would have to return from his injury. The team won a lot of games last year with questionable QB play, poor secondary and backups at different spots throughout the year. Maybe they don't need as much as we think.


As odd as it seems, based on trade point value, that would be a steal for us.

the #5 pick is Was and they won't trade with us, so forget about them. We'd have to get up to #4 which is OAK.

#4 = 1800 pts
#20 = 850 pts.

We need to get to 950 points to make it even without any premium. Here is our draft selections and this is before compensatory selections are awarded:

2nd - #52 = 380 pts
3rd - #84 = 170 pts
4th-1 = #110 = 74 pts
4th #2 = #116 = 62 pts
5th - #148 = 32 pts
6th - #180 = 19 pts
7th - #212 = 7 pts
Total Pt Value = 744

Short fall = 206 pts without any premium.

That would be a mid 3rd. So it would be our entire draft plus next year's 3rd.

So, using a recent example, would we trade:
M. Smith
J. Matthews
Huff
Watkins
Reynolds
Hart
B. Allen
+ B. Logan to move up from #20 to #4.

Most street free agents can out perform Smith, Huff, Watkins, Reynolds, Hart and Allen so it comes down to

Matthews and Logan to move up from #20 to #4.

YES. I do it.

I would want to split it between this year's picks and next years picks.

One problem is that with FA happening before the draft, we may not be able to resign sanchez as a backup and that is over before the draft.

Ideally, if you are parting ways with Foles, you'd want him to be a part of the trade and get at least a 3rd round pick for him. But if we don't re-sign Sanchez as a backup, we'll need to keep Foles and we lose the opportunity to keep the pick he would have gotten for us.

If this kid is the kid that Chip is pretty sure will elevate us to have a top echelon QB (for our system), I say yes, do it.

Like I said, i split the picks between this year and next so not to lose an entire year.

Do you?
Zero
My problem is something you've championed for as long as I've known you: the draft is a major crap shoot. If they sacrifice more than an entire draft for a player who is unable to make the transition to the NFL they're screwed, especially if they trade Foles. What it boils down to is if Kelly KNOWS that Mariota will be an elite NFL QB ... do I have faith that he does?

If, as you say, they split the compensation between 2015 and 2016 I'd take my Ensure, tighten up my Depends and wear out the front edge of my LazyBoy - I'm OK with it but I don't think I'd do it if I were in charge, too risky. Instead, I'd work to make the defense top 10 and build the offense to be top 2 with a "good" QB. If that's not Foles I'd draft one or two a year until I found the Wilson or Brady knock off. The point is that I don't think you need an elite QB to win with this offense, especially if they have a solid OL, very good skill players and a consistent, competent QB who has enough mobility to keep the defense honest ... a Foles who can run would be very scary for the opposition.
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