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nephillymike
This year's #1, next year's #1 and 2017 number one for Mariotta?

Or, Shady, plus this year's #1 plus next year's #1?

That's what it would cost.

We can give every pick in this year's draft for Mariotta and it still falls short by about a future second rounder.

That bein the case, would you do our entire draft this year plus next year's 2nd round pick?
JeeQ
Or, Shady, plus this year's #1 plus next year's #1?


This...
Zero
Does anyone believe the Bucs would make any of those trades with McCown and Glennan as their QBs?
nephillymike
QUOTE (Zero @ Jan 3 2015, 08:19 PM) *
Does anyone believe the Bucs would make any of those trades with McCown and Glennan as their QBs?



C;mon Z!

Let's not let anything like common sense get in our way!!!
nephillymike
QUOTE (JeeQ @ Jan 3 2015, 08:00 PM) *
Or, Shady, plus this year's #1 plus next year's #1?


This...



Interesting, you may be on to something. The last 11 combos based on actual picks:

Mariotta for Shady +

M. Smith & Johnson
Johnson & Cox
Cox & Watkins
Watkins & Graham
Graham & Maclin
Maclin & Bunkley
Bunkley & Patterson
Patterson & Andrews
Andrews & McDougle
McDougle & Shepherd
Shepherd & Mitchell

There you have our last 11 combos. I think I'd do every one of them. The Johnson and Cox is the only one that gives me pause.

You?
Phits
Is Mariotta the only draft worthy QB this year? or is he just the overwhelming sure fire pick?
nephillymike
QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 3 2015, 10:28 PM) *
Is Mariotta the only draft worthy QB this year? or is he just the overwhelming sure fire pick?


He, Winston and Hundley are the projected 1st rounders. We could get Hundley at #20. Winston is a character problem and may have better passing tools but make some questionable on field decisions. Mariotta fits Chip's offense to to T.

It's early, things always change, but neither Mariota or Winston should get out of the first five.
Dreagon
After watching the whole RGIII experience, I would never consider ANY college player to be worth more than one first round draft pick (maybe combined with a lesser round pick, but never 2 number ones). You've got Foles for now....use your picks to build the team around him until a draft that is deeper in QBs comes along.
Eyrie
We have too many holes to target one player as the solution, particularly given the cost of getting Mariotta, so I'd rather build a strong team (ie fix the secondary) and wait for the QB.

Given the poor year from Cooper it wouldn't surprise me if we went WR in rounds 1 or 2 this year, even although our needs are on the other side of the ball and can't all be addressed in FA.


BirdsWinBaby
QUOTE (Dreagon @ Jan 4 2015, 03:46 AM) *
You've got Foles for now....use your picks to build the team around him until a draft that is deeper in QBs comes along.


yes we have Foles for now....its not gonna win us anything except a bunch of regular season games vs the NFC south and a playoff win if the opponent sucks

then what? he is only under contract thru next season





Dreagon
QUOTE (BirdsWinBaby @ Jan 4 2015, 09:16 AM) *
yes we have Foles for now....its not gonna win us anything except a bunch of regular season games vs the NFC south and a playoff win if the opponent sucks

then what? he is only under contract thru next season


Get him some more help. And if it still doesn't work out then that next QB will inherit the help you got Foles.
BirdsWinBaby
QUOTE (Dreagon @ Jan 4 2015, 10:32 AM) *
Get him some more help. And if it still doesn't work out then that next QB will inherit the help you got Foles.


yea thats the point...when do you decide it didnt work out?....after his first 4 seasons or should we try 4 more?

you can afford a lot more patience then the fans here...or Chip for that matter

im not saying that i think they will give a ton for mariota...im saying that Chip/Foles will continue to win just enough that we will never be bad enough to draft THAT GUY

or never good enough for a parade. as we have seen, Foles/Vick/Sanchez/Kolb 'for now' is a bad plan. at some point you need a franchise QB or bust


Dreagon
QUOTE (BirdsWinBaby @ Jan 4 2015, 09:46 AM) *
yea thats the point...when do you decide it didnt work out?....after his first 4 seasons or should we try 4 more?

you can afford a lot more patience then the fans here...or Chip for that matter

im not saying that i think they will give a ton for mariota...im saying that Chip/Foles will continue to win just enough that we will never be bad enough to draft THAT GUY

or never good enough for a parade. as we have seen, Foles/Vick/Sanchez/Kolb 'for now' is a bad plan. at some point you need a franchise QB or bust


What you're waiting for is a draft class that is deep enough at QB for a good one with potential to be able to fall to the lower first round. It happens. As a matter of fact the draft that had RGIII and Luck also produced Tannehill and Wilson.
BirdsWinBaby
QUOTE (Dreagon @ Jan 4 2015, 11:02 AM) *
What you're waiting for is a draft class that is deep enough at QB for a good one with potential to be able to fall to the lower first round. It happens. As a matter of fact the draft that had RGIII and Luck also produced Tannehill and Wilson.



yea it happens...not projected to happen soon

Chip is not used to waiting. in college you win a lot and top prospects are beating on your door to play for your team

is he gonna live thru year after year of mediocrity hoping to get his guy? THEN once you draft him you have a year or two of adjusting to the NFL...THEN you have to hope that all the talent you amassed around Foles isnt gone/aging?

thats the plan? Chip has 3 more years. one is with Foles as his QB....if he doesnt have his guy by next year i dont see him staying and hoping for a deep QB draft
Dreagon
QUOTE (BirdsWinBaby @ Jan 4 2015, 10:14 AM) *
yea it happens...not projected to happen soon

Chip is not used to waiting. in college you win a lot and top prospects are beating on your door to play for your team

is he gonna live thru year after year of mediocrity hoping to get his guy? THEN once you draft him you have a year or two of adjusting to the NFL...THEN you have to hope that all the talent you amassed around Foles isnt gone/aging?

thats the plan? Chip has 3 more years. one is with Foles as his QB....if he doesnt have his guy by next year i dont see him staying and hoping for a deep QB draft


Grayson or Hundley in the second round and let them develop a year under Foles?
Of course if you do that, then Foles sees the handwriting on the wall on draft day.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jan 3 2015, 07:45 PM) *
This year's #1, next year's #1 and 2017 number one for Mariotta?

Or, Shady, plus this year's #1 plus next year's #1?

That's what it would cost.

We can give every pick in this year's draft for Mariotta and it still falls short by about a future second rounder.

That bein the case, would you do our entire draft this year plus next year's 2nd round pick?


The Genius still thinks he's in college. I want us to beef up our defense, not waste any more draft picks on guys who can't get on the field, and do none of these things.

We're in agreement he may try to push all-in, especially in light of recent events we're he's in charge of personnel. It's a disaster waiting to happen IMO. In the off chance that mortgaging a franchise for a QB works THIS TIME, I'll be happy to hear 'I told you so.'
nephillymike
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Jan 4 2015, 11:55 AM) *
The Genius still thinks he's in college. I want us to beef up our defense, not waste any more draft picks on guys who can't get on the field, and do none of these things.

We're in agreement he may try to push all-in, especially in light of recent events we're he's in charge of personnel. It's a disaster waiting to happen IMO. In the off chance that mortgaging a franchise for a QB works THIS TIME, I'll be happy to hear 'I told you so.'


But if the past is prologue, look at the combos of the players we would be giving up. In hindsight, wouldn't yu say yes to most if not all of them?
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jan 4 2015, 12:21 PM) *
But if the past is prologue, look at the combos of the players we would be giving up. In hindsight, wouldn't yu say yes to most if not all of them?


Perhaps, but if we're going to justify giving up the farm because our picks will 'probably suck anyway,' then our problems are much bigger than getting a QB.
nephillymike
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Jan 4 2015, 01:08 PM) *
Perhaps, but if we're going to justify giving up the farm because our picks will 'probably suck anyway,' then our problems are much bigger than getting a QB.

Our picks during this period were above average if you believe all of those rating sources from the past.

Our picks are indicative of the crapshoot the draft is.

HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jan 4 2015, 02:06 PM) *
Our picks during this period were above average if you believe all of those rating sources from the past.

Our picks are indicative of the crapshoot the draft is.


We've been hit or miss. I think some positions are that way by nature - the Colts wanted Ryan Leaf over Peyton Manning after all. However, some positions are not hit or miss, and we have drafted pretty shitty at those positions - while teams like the Seahawks have drafted their way to a dominant defense capable of winning it all. Calling the overall draft a crapshoot is a cop out, several teams consistently draft well and several consistently suck.

Bobby Cox once said that the MLB playoffs were a crapshoot once you get in - that's nice coming from someone who won one World Series in 14 straight trips to the playoffs - and he only got that one ring because the Braves happened to bump into the only bigger choke artists in the history of the game, the Indians in 1995.

The Red Sox, Giants, Cardinals, and Yankees disagree with you Bobby.

SAM I Am
Okay guys. Before we get all kinds of crazy and give up whatever it takes to draft this guy --- personally, I haven't watched him play much at all --- could we at least spell his last name correctly first, Mariota rolleyes.gif
JeeQ
Basically it comes down to one question... do you think Mariota is a future elite QB? If so, then he's worth everything and more. If not, then he's not even worth trying to move up for

If our coach was anyone other than Chip Kelly I'd say no, he's not worth it. But this is one of those rare circumstances where a coach has a chance to get the QB of his dreams... Personally I want to see what happens
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (JeeQ @ Jan 4 2015, 04:33 PM) *
Basically it comes down to one question... do you think Mariota is a future elite QB? If so, then he's worth everything and more. If not, then he's not even worth trying to move up for

If our coach was anyone other than Chip Kelly I'd say no, he's not worth it. But this is one of those rare circumstances where a coach has a chance to get the QB of his dreams... Personally I want to see what happens


Bottom line is, Chip's in charge of personnel now and everyone knows it. If he gives up several top picks and Shady to get Mariota, he'll either have a statue one day in front of the Linc, or we'll be cursing his name for the next 2 decades.
Phits
Draft picks are crap shoots. There is no way to tell how a college players skills will translate to the pro's. Every now and then there is a sure fire player, but even then without the right system and coaching there is no guarantee.


The Seahawks were swimming in mediocrity before they finally found their franchise QB.
GroundedBird
QUOTE (JeeQ @ Jan 4 2015, 04:33 PM) *
Basically it comes down to one question... do you think Mariota is a future elite QB? If so, then he's worth everything and more. If not, then he's not even worth trying to move up for

If our coach was anyone other than Chip Kelly I'd say no, he's not worth it. But this is one of those rare circumstances where a coach has a chance to get the QB of his dreams... Personally I want to see what happens


Actually, it may depend on who we get in FA. IF we can get some DBs, drafting Mariota might lead to future FAs too. IF we could pull it off then this would be a fun team to watch!

My other concern is the OLine: we are getting quite long in the tooth.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 4 2015, 05:27 PM) *
The Seahawks were swimming in mediocrity before they finally found their franchise QB.


No, they were swimming in mediocrity until they hired Pete Carroll and John Schneider, who drafted several defensive Pro Bowlers, and an adequate QB.
CT_Eagle
Nothing. I am not sold on Mariotta.
Phits
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Jan 4 2015, 05:49 PM) *
No, they were swimming in mediocrity until they hired Pete Carroll and John Schneider, who drafted several defensive Pro Bowlers, and an adequate QB.

Is that your opinion. that Wilson is an "adequate" QB?
JeeQ
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Jan 4 2015, 02:49 PM) *
No, they were swimming in mediocrity until they hired Pete Carroll and John Schneider, who drafted several defensive Pro Bowlers, and an adequate QB.


Y Tu HoP? I thought for sure you'd be one of the people who see the greatness in Wilson. His O-Line is adequate (most pressured QB two seasons in a row), his WRs are adequate (Kearse? Baldwin?), but Wilson is anything but merely adequate. While he's not in the Manning/Brady echelon he does all the right things to win a football game. If only we could be blessed with a QB as adequate as Wilson
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (JeeQ @ Jan 5 2015, 12:11 AM) *
While he's not in the Manning/Brady echelon he does all the right things to win a football game.


Precisely. In other words, he's adequate. As in, 'satisfactory.' The Seahawks are elite because of their defense, which was built almost entirely through great drafting. It doesn't hurt that he has Beast Mode in the backfield. You act like the word is an insult.
Phits
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Jan 5 2015, 10:52 AM) *
Precisely. In other words, he's adequate. As in, 'satisfactory.' The Seahawks are elite because of their defense, which was built almost entirely through great drafting. It doesn't hurt that he has Beast Mode in the backfield. You act like the word is an insult.

He's a top 10 QB (I'd put him 6th or 7th in the league). That is better than adequate or satisfactory.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 5 2015, 03:34 PM) *
He's a top 10 QB (I'd put him 6th or 7th in the league). That is better than adequate or satisfactory.


Since you've been defending cutting a Pro-Bowl WR for nothing in return for the last year, your rankings do more to back me up than anything.

He's a top 10-15 QB, in an excellent system, with one of the top RB's in the league, and he's utilized perfectly to play to his strengths and weaknesses. In fact, Seattle runs more than any team in the league, including with Wilson.
samaroo
QUOTE (Dreagon @ Jan 5 2015, 01:21 AM) *
Grayson or Hundley in the second round and let them develop a year under Foles?
Of course if you do that, then Foles sees the handwriting on the wall on draft day.


I'd be okay with this. I'm not worried about Foles seeing any handwriting. If he doesn't think he needs to drastically improve already, he and us are in more trouble than we think.

QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jan 5 2015, 02:21 AM) *
But if the past is prologue, look at the combos of the players we would be giving up. In hindsight, wouldn't yu say yes to most if not all of them?


It's easier to say yes because we see what we've drafted. Could you say the same for the 1 and 2 picks of other teams? Our drafting poorly shouldn't deflate the value of those picks. Also, if we were "1 QB away" from having a legitimate shot at a trophy, I'd be more inclined to agree with this. As we stand, however, I'd rather take your cap numbers and buy some talent. What we can't buy, we try to draft. Washington's mistake wasn't that they gave up too much to get their (hopefully) franchise QB, it's that they had so many other holes to fill, the QB wasn't going to save them. Even if they had hit with RG3, they wouldn't be a competetive team.

QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Jan 5 2015, 03:08 AM) *
Perhaps, but if we're going to justify giving up the farm because our picks will 'probably suck anyway,' then our problems are much bigger than getting a QB.


I agree with this.
Phits
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Jan 5 2015, 03:46 PM) *
Since you've been defending cutting a Pro-Bowl WR for nothing in return for the last year, your rankings do more to back me up than anything.

This from a guy who believes running your RB 20+ times a game guarantees victory rolleyes.gif

QUOTE
He's a top 10-15 QB

P.Manning, Brady, Rodgers, Brees. Who are the other 6-11 QB's ahead of him?

QUOTE
In fact, Seattle runs more than any team in the league, including with Wilson.

That's not surprising, considering he is a running QB. He's got 849 yards rushing this season. That doesn't mean he isn't a passing threat. He completes almost 65% of his passes and has the luxury of passing the ball to the likes of Doug Baldwin. Calling Wilson "adequate" is just plain ignorant.

HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 5 2015, 08:39 PM) *
This from a guy who believes running your RB 20+ times a game guarantees victory rolleyes.gif


The fact that you continue to misrepresent an argument I've backed up statistically for a long time shows that you really have nothing intelligent on the subject to say in response. Also, not too long ago you agreed with me on how we didn't run enough - I think you're just upset that I called you out for your disingenuous 'Redskins epiphany.'

If any team proves that an adequate QB, well-utilized star RB, and solid defense can win it all and play at an elite level for years, it's Seattle. Stick to arguing for cutting Pro-Bowlers on a whim.
D Rock
Wilson is beyond "adequate" and the defense is well beyond "solid" mr. "20 carries = win"
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (D Rock @ Jan 6 2015, 12:23 PM) *
Wilson is beyond "adequate" and the defense is well beyond "solid" mr. "20 carries = win"


McNabb was never a top-30 QB, that's pretty much what you've offered here before in talent evaluation, right?
D Rock
McNabb was never top 10 has always been my opinion. As for my "talent evaluation" offered here, it's been pretty much limited to pointing out your obvious lack of it.

HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE
McNabb was never top 10 has always been my opinion.


laugh.gif

While that's certainly a ridiculously naive opinion (even for you), you've said he was never a top-30 QB - running away from your own words now are we?


QUOTE
As for my "talent evaluation" offered here, it's been pretty much limited to pointing out your obvious lack of it.


It took you an hour to come up with that line? Wow, I wish McNabbulous would come back.....
Phits
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Jan 6 2015, 10:08 AM) *
The fact that you continue to misrepresent an argument I've backed up statistically for a long time shows that you really have nothing intelligent on the subject to say in response.

You claimed that using a RB to run the ball 20+ all but guarantees a win. Good for you if you foound stats to back up the nonsensical claim.

QUOTE
Also, not too long ago you agreed with me on how we didn't run enough -

Under AR we didn't run the ball enough. However, there is no magic number that correlates to victory.

QUOTE
I think you're just upset that I called you out for your disingenuous 'Redskins epiphany.'

The fact that you fail to comprehend how the term "redskin" is offensive continues to prove your ignorance.

QUOTE
If any team proves that an adequate QB, well-utilized star RB, and solid defense can win it all and play at an elite level for years, it's Seattle. Stick to arguing for cutting Pro-Bowlers on a whim.

In 2010 Seattle was 7-9, with Matt Hasselbeck as their starter.
In 2011 Seattle was 7-9, with Tavaris Jackson as their starter.
In 2012 Seattle was 11-5, with Russell Wilson as their starter.

With 2 average QB's Seattle couldn't finish above .500. They got their franchise QB and they finished 11-5 in his rookie season, 13-3 in a SB season and are heavy favorites to repeat (12-4) this season.
Phits
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Jan 6 2015, 02:18 PM) *
While that's certainly a ridiculously naive opinion (even for you), you've said he was never a top-30 QB - running away from your own words now are we?

KAL (with his schtick) was the one who laid claim to McNabb not being a top 30 QB. DRock simply never liked McNabb.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE
You claimed that using a RB to run the ball 20+ all but guarantees a win.


No you're lying, I have never said using an RB to run 20+ times a game all but guarantees a win. I've talked about utilizing Shady specifically in our offense during his career here, and backed it up with stats, records, and common sense, using 20 carries by him as a benchmark for a good percentage of plays in a given game to establish a running game with an All-Pro RB. I used a benchmark to try to keep it simple for people like you - obviously I didn't make it simple enough. Again, you're making shit up to cover up for the fact that you have nothing intelligent or relevant to add to this topic.

QUOTE
The fact that you fail to comprehend how the term "redskin" is offensive continues to prove your ignorance.


The fact that you supposedly 'changed your mind' on the subject after watching a 2 minute commercial in your 40's proves how disingenuous and self-serving your 'epiphany' was.

QUOTE
With 2 average QB's Seattle couldn't finish above .500.


With 2 god-awful QB's.....

QUOTE
They got their franchise QB and they finished 11-5 in his rookie season, 13-3 in a SB season and are heavy favorites to repeat (12-4) this season.


Who's ever said otherwise? Do you own a dictionary?
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 6 2015, 03:44 PM) *
KAL (with his schtick) was the one who laid claim to McNabb not being a top 30 QB. DRock simply never liked McNabb.


I'm aware of who originally said it - he agreed with his (schtick) several times.
Pbfan
We can't be giving up those draft picks. If he was a Andrew Luck caliber, and he had that consensus around him of how good he will be, I would say yes. But he doesn't, and I don't want to get into a RGIII situation where we bet the farm and then it doesn't pan out.

Also a good QB is going to be trite if we can't fix our secondary. Drafting a QB is like treating a patient for a cold while he also has a gushing head wound.
Phits
QUOTE (Pbfan @ Jan 6 2015, 07:06 PM) *
We can't be giving up those draft picks. If he was a Andrew Luck caliber, and he had that consensus around him of how good he will be, I would say yes. But he doesn't, and I don't want to get into a RGIII situation where we bet the farm and then it doesn't pan out.

Also a good QB is going to be trite if we can't fix our secondary. Drafting a QB is like treating a patient for a cold while he also has a gushing head wound.

Except finding the right QB is the more difficult task. Without a quality QB we will end up like the Bills. A great defense and very good "moving parts" but no QB to really facilitate the systems needs.
Wheeljack
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jan 3 2015, 07:45 PM) *
This year's #1, next year's #1 and 2017 number one for Mariotta?

Or, Shady, plus this year's #1 plus next year's #1?

That's what it would cost.

We can give every pick in this year's draft for Mariotta and it still falls short by about a future second rounder.

That bein the case, would you do our entire draft this year plus next year's 2nd round pick?


I am a huge Mariota fan, would infinitely prefer him to any current Eagle QB, etc. Not sure he is a Russell Wilson-esque salvo for the offense, though.

The Eagles have scant assets and too many holes to spare to pull off this kind of deal. It's too much for one player. We saw what happened with the Buttskins. I would rather the Eagles trade for Kaepernick than do something like this.

If people more are enamored with pocket passing then you go with Winston (and I think the Eagles would give up less to have him).
nephillymike
Interesting, you may be on to something. The last 11 combos based on actual picks:

Mariotta for Shady +

M. Smith & Johnson
Johnson & Cox
Cox & Watkins
Watkins & Graham
Graham & Maclin
Maclin & Bunkley
Bunkley & Patterson
Patterson & Andrews
Andrews & McDougle
McDougle & Shepherd
Shepherd & Mitchell

There you have our last 11 combos. I think I'd do every one of them. The Johnson and Cox is the only one that gives me pause.
======================================================================
I greatly misrepresented this trade. Big time!

We would give up McCoy and 2 1st Round picks for Mariota + 7.5M of cap room (Shady figure after dead money)

7.5M of cap room buys you the caliber players of Maclin and Jenkins (based on Decker last year +$1M more and Jenkins actual deal last year.)

Since I was signing Maclin anyway and we already have Jenkins under contract, we could sign two comparable FA's.

Based on history, that's almost a no brainer.

Agree?

And another angle. The Falcons moved from #27 to #6 a few years ago to get Julio. They gave up the 27th pick, another 1st a 2nd and two 4ths for the #6 pick. If we're at #20 and Mariota drops a little, that could be feasible.

The trade value math worked as follows:
#6 = 1600 points
#27 = 680, next year #27 = 680, #59(2nd round) = 310, 2 4ths #127 = 45 each = 1760

So ATL paid a premium of 160 points which is a mid 3rd round pick.

Would you do that??
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