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nephillymike
QB. - check.

CB - check

SS - check

5-2, 6th seed Wild card team, on road in first round.

@ 5-3 HOU. next week.

The coaches are right. Fans are just wrong.

Not me. No changes are needed from here in NE Philly. Just ask the coaches. Sanchez, Carroll and Boykin are not starter material. We're good.

Status quo baby!!!
Zero
I'm not quite ready to join you out on the Ben, mikey. Even with Foles foibles they could have won that game and the Cards are playing well.
make_it_rain
We're really kind of up shit creek when it comes to QB. Its basically choosing between:

  • sticking with the backpeddling giraffe they have now (most likely scenario) and hoping he improves
  • mortgaging the entire team to try to move up and draft a new qb (not too likely at all)
  • Bring on Sanchize and take a flyer on a guy in rounds 2-3, someone like Brett Hundley or Dak Prescott


I don't know what you think we can do about SS. We're kind of stuck with that piece of garbage Nate Allen for a while. I doubt there are many starting caliber safeties being dangled out there via trade, and we whiffed on drafting Earl Wolff and Ed Reynolds.

I'm not really going to disagree with you about the corners. If its any consolation know that there is zero chance sconces is here next season.

I said 9-7 in the beginning of the year, and sadly I stand by that prediction. I think 10, maybe 11 wins if everything goes right is the absolute ceiling.


HobbEs
Hey Mikey, I would bet the coaching staff doesn't agree with you. There's a difference in what they say to the media and what gets said behind closed doors.

If a picture is worth a thousand words then a couple of them stick out from yesterday...

the look on Bill Davis' face when Nate Allen blows his assignment and gives up the winning TD.
the way Chip laid into Josh Huff after his fumble.
the evident frustration on Chip's face after (yet another) late throw from Foles for an Int.

They're not saying anything but it's my guess big changes are coming. It's evident that Chip has lost faith in Shady which is why we see Sproles in on crucial downs. (Shame he wasn't active yesterday). He's also losing faith in Foles which is why you didn't see him run the QB sneak down on the goal line.

I don't know whether Nick is keeping the seat warm for a new QB next year or whether we'll see Sanchez (sometime this year) but it's clear he's not a franchise QB. I see Chip playing the hand he's dealt and reshuffling the deck next year.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (HobbEs @ Oct 27 2014, 10:32 AM) *
Hey Mikey, I would bet the coaching staff doesn't agree with you. There's a difference in what they say to the media and what gets said behind closed doors.

If a picture is worth a thousand words then a couple of them stick out from yesterday...

the look on Bill Davis' face when Nate Allen blows his assignment and gives up the winning TD.
the way Chip laid into Josh Huff after his fumble.
the evident frustration on Chip's face after (yet another) late throw from Foles for an Int.

They're not saying anything but it's my guess big changes are coming. It's evident that Chip has lost faith in Shady which is why we see Sproles in on crucial downs. (Shame he wasn't active yesterday). He's also losing faith in Foles which is why you didn't see him run the QB sneak down on the goal line.

I don't know whether Nick is keeping the seat warm for a new QB next year or whether we'll see Sanchez (sometime this year) but it's clear he's not a franchise QB. I see Chip playing the hand he's dealt and reshuffling the deck next year.

I think this is all very likely.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (HobbEs @ Oct 27 2014, 11:32 AM) *
the evident frustration on Chip's face after (yet another) late throw from Foles for an Int.


Maybe he can look in the mirror then, and not call 70% pass plays next game. It's clear Foles can't shoulder that kind of load, so assuming he doesn't morph into Tom Brady maybe Chip can adjust his gameplan to fit what he has out there.
HobbEs
QUOTE
Maybe he can look in the mirror then, and not call 70% pass plays next game. It's clear Foles can't shoulder that kind of load, so assuming he doesn't morph into Tom Brady maybe Chip can adjust his gameplan to fit what he has out there.


I don't disagree but if you don't trust your RB to make plays and your O Line is banged up what do you do? Maybe it's just the lesser of two evils. Besides, when a team loses its top corner the natural reaction is to throw at the guy coming in.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (HobbEs @ Oct 27 2014, 01:39 PM) *
I don't disagree but if you don't trust your RB to make plays and your O Line is banged up what do you do? Maybe it's just the lesser of two evils. Besides, when a team loses its top corner the natural reaction is to throw at the guy coming in.


Teams have made it their priority to take Shady out of the game, and Chip has had to put the ball in Foles's hands more - clearly that isn't working. While Foles was awful yesterday, as I mentioned in another thread he wasn't that bad when the Eagles focused on short passes and running the ball. That seems to be the best thing to do at this point, his deep balls are horrible and you have to keep the defense honest in order to get Shady going. 70% passes sure as shit isn't the right path.
nephillymike
QUOTE (HobbEs @ Oct 27 2014, 10:32 AM) *
Hey Mikey, I would bet the coaching staff doesn't agree with you. There's a difference in what they say to the media and what gets said behind closed doors.

If a picture is worth a thousand words then a couple of them stick out from yesterday...

the look on Bill Davis' face when Nate Allen blows his assignment and gives up the winning TD.
the way Chip laid into Josh Huff after his fumble.
the evident frustration on Chip's face after (yet another) late throw from Foles for an Int.

They're not saying anything but it's my guess big changes are coming. It's evident that Chip has lost faith in Shady which is why we see Sproles in on crucial downs. (Shame he wasn't active yesterday). He's also losing faith in Foles which is why you didn't see him run the QB sneak down on the goal line.

I don't know whether Nick is keeping the seat warm for a new QB next year or whether we'll see Sanchez (sometime this year) but it's clear he's not a franchise QB. I see Chip playing the hand he's dealt and reshuffling the deck next year.



Hey Sheldon, sarcasm alert!!! (Hope you get the Big Bang reference).

I'm livid. We're good my ass!!

What I want from the coaches is no words, just actions.

Put Sanchez in for Foles.
Carroll in for Sconces (or Boykin as starter and Carroll when we need a 3rd CB)
Wolff in for Allen.

These guys need to realize it is a honor to start for this team and to do so you must play well.

I give Foles one more game to snap out of it based only on his awesome year last year. I expect no improvement and pray that another below average day from him doesn't cost us a win in HOU, but I am OK with starting him at HOU. If he turns it around great, as I would love for him to play well enough to deserve a long term contract as our QB.

Sconces and Allen have never done anything while here to make me think they were starting material for a good NFL team. I make those changes immediately.
Dreagon
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 27 2014, 06:34 PM) *
Put Sanchez in for Foles.
Carroll in for Sconces (or Boykin as starter and Carroll when we need a 3rd CB)
Wolff in for Allen.


I'm not going to argue about Carroll or Wolff, but you really want to put Captain Buttfumble in for the QB who has taken you to 5-2?
nephillymike
QUOTE (Dreagon @ Oct 27 2014, 07:28 PM) *
I'm not going to argue about Carroll or Wolff, but you really want to put Captain Buttfumble in for the QB who has taken you to 5-2?



You can quote 5-2 as a record that is reason not to replace anyone.

Sconces gave you that 5-2.

As did Allen

You can't use the record as a crutch not to make a lineup change.

The play of these guys has turned a 7-0 into a 5-2. In the upcoming weeks, their effect on our record will be greater as it is unlikely we score seven non offensive TD's over the next nine games to bail us out.
Zero
QUOTE (Dreagon @ Oct 27 2014, 08:28 PM) *
I'm not going to argue about Carroll or Wolff, but you really want to put Captain Buttfumble in for the QB who has taken you to 5-2?

I'm not going to argue for Sanchez other than to say that Kelly has won with almost every description of QB on the planet. Kelly is showing us that he doesn't have a quick trigger finger when players are under performing - that goes with Williams, Fletcher, Allen, Foles ... Even though I was against Sanchez coming here, let's not forget where he came from and what we've seen from Jet QBs lately. Either that means he's really, really terrible, burned his bridges or that team is a QB graveyard.

I keep wondering if the team's wins aren't as much or more the product of coaching and scheme than the players. Is Kelly making Foles look better than he is or is Foles just struggling? Is he struggling because Kelly is asking him to take the next step in QB evolution or because the OL has had so many issues this year and that's all inside his head? Is he really struggling or are we expecting too much from him after last year?
Dreagon
QUOTE (Zero @ Oct 28 2014, 05:01 AM) *
I'm not going to argue for Sanchez other than to say that Kelly has won with almost every description of QB on the planet. Kelly is showing us that he doesn't have a quick trigger finger when players are under performing - that goes with Williams, Fletcher, Allen, Foles ... Even though I was against Sanchez coming here, let's not forget where he came from and what we've seen from Jet QBs lately. Either that means he's really, really terrible, burned his bridges or that team is a QB graveyard.

I keep wondering if the team's wins aren't as much or more the product of coaching and scheme than the players. Is Kelly making Foles look better than he is or is Foles just struggling? Is he struggling because Kelly is asking him to take the next step in QB evolution or because the OL has had so many issues this year and that's all inside his head? Is he really struggling or are we expecting too much from him after last year?


You make some good points. Rex Ryan is hardly a quarterbacks coach, and I've never seen him really do much to set them up to win. Sanchez might be a different QB in a different system.

So far I think scheme is a big part of you guys success, but don't sell your players short. It takes disciplined football players to to play successfully on a team that is so schemed based, and that's probably what Kelly values in players. Remember, Parcells went to Super Bowls with "bus drivers" for quarterbacks. Some coaches don't care for stars as much as they care for people who master his scheme.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (Zero @ Oct 28 2014, 06:01 AM) *
I keep wondering if the team's wins aren't as much or more the product of coaching and scheme than the players. Is Kelly making Foles look better than he is or is Foles just struggling? Is he struggling because Kelly is asking him to take the next step in QB evolution or because the OL has had so many issues this year and that's all inside his head? Is he really struggling or are we expecting too much from him after last year?


He's struggling of course, but the coaching and scheme are doing nothing but hurting him. The Pats, Broncos, Packers, and Saints don't pass 70% of the time, with HoF QB's. Kelce and Mathis returning soon should help a bit.

Calling for Sanchez while Foles is healthy is beyond ridiculous, provided he doesn't start putting up 5 picks a game.
mcnabbulous
One guy has won 4 career playoff games. The other guy is Nick Foles.
HobbEs
Teams are loading the box to take away our running game and forcing Foles to beat them. Problem is he's not beating them. He's late on throws, he's overthrowing wide open receivers, he's tossing INTs, and fumbling the ball when he tries to run. Why wouldn't anyone be calling for Sanchez? (Okay, so I'm playing devil's advocate a bit).

I gotta wonder if he's injured or there's something going on that we don't know about. He took a severe beating during the Washington game. (Although he didn't look that great beforehand either). This is a contract year for him and the opportunity to establish himself as our franchise QB. So far he's looked like anything but.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (HobbEs @ Oct 28 2014, 02:39 PM) *
Teams are loading the box to take away our running game and forcing Foles to beat them. Problem is he's not beating them. He's late on throws, he's overthrowing wide open receivers, he's tossing INTs, and fumbling the ball when he tries to run. Why wouldn't anyone be calling for Sanchez? (Okay, so I'm playing devil's advocate a bit).


Because Sanchez is a terrible QB. He played his role as game manager well enough his first 2 years, letting a ridiculous running game and excellent defense do all the work (and he still put up shitty numbers those first two years). Nothing would be accomplished by bringing him in other than to appease bipolar fans. Again, Foles did ok with shorter passes and running the ball. There's no excuse for passing over 60 times on Sunday. If you think Sanchez would do better with that pass/run ratio, I don't know what to say to you.
Phits
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Oct 28 2014, 03:08 PM) *
Because Sanchez is a terrible QB. He played his role as game manager well enough his first 2 years, letting a ridiculous running game and excellent defense do all the work (and he still put up shitty numbers those first two years). Nothing would be accomplished by bringing him in other than to appease bipolar fans. Again, Foles did ok with shorter passes and running the ball. There's no excuse for passing over 60 times on Sunday. If you think Sanchez would do better with that pass/run ratio, I don't know what to say to you.

Chips offense is based on execution. Foles threw 60+ times and barely completed 50% of those passes. If he hits the open receivers it would dissuade the D from stacking the box or aggressively playing the LOS. I'm not advocating a switch in QB's, but considering Sanchez was completing 80% of his pass attempts (albeit in pre-season) and Foles has looked shaky since late last season, it isn't beyond reason.


make_it_rain
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 27 2014, 07:34 PM) *
Wolff in for Allen.


Dude....no, just no. Wolff is garbage. He would only be a temporary fix anyway as the guy would just shatter into a thousand pieces after a few games. Allen's absolutely atrocious play getting owned by John Brown overshadowed an otherwise respectable game vs. ARZ, specifically in run defense.

Don't get me wrong, Allen still sucks, but he is the best option available right now. He has shown improvement, even if that improvement is going from "horrendous" to "serviceably bad"
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 28 2014, 04:24 PM) *
Chips offense is based on execution. Foles threw 60+ times and barely completed 50% of those passes. If he hits the open receivers it would dissuade the D from stacking the box or aggressively playing the LOS. I'm not advocating a switch in QB's, but considering Sanchez was completing 80% of his pass attempts (albeit in pre-season) and Foles has looked shaky since late last season, it isn't beyond reason.


Yes, Sanchez was most impressive in his preseason appearances, against backups. Are we still on this?

Buttfumble's best statistical year, he had a 78.2 passer rating, and 56.7% completion, with 26 td's and 18 int's. He hasn't played against actual NFL starters since 2012. Foles, playing as poor as he is, has a rating of 80.7.

Every team's plan is based on execution - work with what you got. Sanchez shouldn't see the light of day on Sunday unless Foles gets injured, or if we're up by 40 points.
mcnabbulous
I think what we've all come to realize is that if a guy doesn't succeed in his first few seasons in the NFL, he has no chance of ever being good. Not even when going from a terrible situation to a much better situation. Not when going from the worst offensive coaching to some of the best. No chance at all.

Never, ever happens.
Dreagon
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 28 2014, 04:49 PM) *
I think what we've all come to realize is that if a guy doesn't succeed in his first few seasons in the NFL, he has no chance of ever being good. Not even when going from a terrible situation to a much better situation. Not when going from the worst offensive coaching to some of the best. No chance at all.

Never, ever happens.



Yeah, sometimes a different system or situation simply works for a qb better. And heck, sometimes the qb may have just been on a really bad offensive unit and expected to carry it all by himself.
Phits
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Oct 28 2014, 04:51 PM) *
Yes, Sanchez was most impressive in his preseason appearances, against backups. Are we still on this?

Buttfumble's best statistical year, he had a 78.2 passer rating, and 56.7% completion, with 26 td's and 18 int's. He hasn't played against actual NFL starters since 2012. Foles, playing as poor as he is, has a rating of 80.7.

Every team's plan is based on execution - work with what you got. Sanchez shouldn't see the light of day on Sunday unless Foles gets injured, or if we're up by 40 points.

I am suggesting (as McNabbulous has repeatedly) that poor QB coaching and offensive strategies are to blame for Sanchez' woes as a Jet. His play as an Eagle, even against the backups, is better than anything we have seen from him thus far. This opens the discussion to how productive he might be, in a QB friendly scheme and a coach that values the offense. Rex Ryan, like his father did with Randall, seems content with having the offense as an afterthought; and relying solely on the talent of his QB to make plays.

I'm not jumping the gun, and think we should stick with Foles for another couple of games (at least). However, if his play continues to be underwhelming and mistake prone, we will need to make a change for before the post season (assuming we make it) in order for us to make any noise. Sanchez' post season statistics are significantly better than his regular season 94 rating, 60% completion, 9 TD vs. 2 INT, 4W 2L and 2 AFCCG appearances.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 28 2014, 05:49 PM) *
I think what we've all come to realize is that if a guy doesn't succeed in his first few seasons in the NFL, he has no chance of ever being good. Not even when going from a terrible situation to a much better situation. Not when going from the worst offensive coaching to some of the best. No chance at all.

Never, ever happens.

Don't forget this one


HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 28 2014, 05:59 PM) *
I am suggesting (as McNabbulous has repeatedly) that poor QB coaching and offensive strategies are to blame for Sanchez' woes as a Jet.


I get what you're suggesting, I'm just saying that if you make Sanchez throw 62 times, the results will be the same at best, and probably worse. Chip coached a terrible game, from the pass/run ratio to the shotgun spread call. Rex Ryan may not be a QB guru (obviously, since he drafted the terrible Sanchez and Smith), but he doesn't force bad decisions on the field - same with Chip. That's why you can go places when scheming around your strengths and weaknesses.

I don't know what point he's trying to make about Alex Smith - he was a solid game manager in SF, and is now one in KC, statistically he hasn't changed at all. When Reid calls a good game, they have a pretty good chance of winning with Charles pounding the ball.
mcnabbulous
"Statistically he hasn't changed at all" = explicitly avoids discussing his first 5 seasons.
nephillymike
I was not a Sanchez fan based on his lack of success in NY. However, even though it looked funny, the butt fumble incident is not as bad as Foles fumble this year but that is not my main point.

However, what we see every game with Chip's offense is that almost all of the time, guys are open by a good margin, especially when compared to the openness of WR on other teams. The skill we need is accuracy and being able to see the field and good decisions. I think the accuracy b/c of the wide open WR's and the good decisions are easier b/c of the system, and I think an average QB can do very well in this system.

Is it possible that Sanchez was great in the preseason because he could see and hit wide open WR's? For me, Foles has this week. If his performance is not good, I make the switch to see if Sanchez can do better. Another 80 passer rating in an Eagle win is not reason to keep Foles in the job. He needs to play well, just as Sconces and Allen need to.

And another thing. We have this year AND next year to decide on Foles. He isn't due a new contract until 2016, his 5th year. We have until the end of this year to see if Sanchez is better. It is not a scenario I could have foreseen coming into this year, but we need to put the best QB out there. It is unlikely that Sanchez could play much worse than Foles, given that only 3 starting NFL QB's have played worse. However, there is upside we should investigate.

I'm hoping Foles snaps out of it this week and continues on a tear like he did last year. I want this to be nothing else but a nervous ninny Phila fan worrying much to do about nothing.

Sunday Nick. Bring your A game.
Zero
I'm worried Foles may not be the guy. Is he playing the game differently this year or are his mechanics the same and he's reacting to OL problems and pressing because he's been named The Man?

Because of last year's success Nick was named the starter. After which he has a new position coach and he's had significant issues on the OL that have affected both pressure on him and stymied the running game. Did Kelly limit the playbook for him last year and now he's struggling to deal with a full plate too?

My point is that the coaches should have an understanding of whether he's in a growing stage or too limited to have the success to win it all. As Mikey Numbers points out, this isn't the final year of his contract so they have time to work him through it if they can. If they believe he can be The Man going forward and they replace him with Sanchez they either need to believe Sanchez can be The Man or they need to accept the possibility of having to move on from Foles with a draft pick, FA or trade next year. If Foles is only struggling and they believe they can pull him out of the rut, replacing him now creates the risk of damaging his psych. On the other hand, if there's a question of if he can be The Man, they owe it to the team to find of if the other guy can.

This is where a good coach is very important!
HobbEs
Adding to what Mikey said earlier...

Everyone points to the success Foles had last year but do we remember the Dallas game? He wasn't setting the world on fire prior to that and was just horrible during that game until he went out with a concussion.

Would it hurt if he took a step back and sat for a game or two? Maybe he would come back like the Nick of last year. You would also get to see what you have in Sanchez.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 29 2014, 10:23 PM) *
Is it possible that Sanchez was great in the preseason because he could see and hit wide open WR's? For me, Foles has this week. If his performance is not good, I make the switch to see if Sanchez can do better. Another 80 passer rating in an Eagle win is not reason to keep Foles in the job.


Another 80 passer rating means we should bring in the guy who's best year was a 78 passer rating, 72 for his whole career? We've lost 2 games, to 2 of the best teams in the NFL, and not by much. Nobody's defending his overall play obviously, but I don't need to see Sanchez - to me that's the equivalent of the Phillies bringing up Michael Martinez (again). Chip will need to help Foles out with his gameplan, especially since this week the best defensive player in the NFL will be charging at him all game. Sproles coming back should obviously be huge.

I should point out I'm also not opposed at all to benching Foles in-game if he plays awful, even though I've said Sanchez should never play while he's healthy. No problem with sending him a message like that, but I don't want to fuck around with not having him as the starter. Hopefully he performs well and shuts bipolar fans up for awhile this week.
koolaidluke
Are you saying you want to see Sanchez? I think HoP is right about this one.
nephillymike
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Oct 30 2014, 02:35 PM) *
Another 80 passer rating means we should bring in the guy who's best year was a 78 passer rating, 72 for his whole career? We've lost 2 games, to 2 of the best teams in the NFL, and not by much. Nobody's defending his overall play obviously, but I don't need to see Sanchez - to me that's the equivalent of the Phillies bringing up Michael Martinez (again). Chip will need to help Foles out with his gameplan, especially since this week the best defensive player in the NFL will be charging at him all game. Sproles coming back should obviously be huge.

I should point out I'm also not opposed at all to benching Foles in-game if he plays awful, even though I've said Sanchez should never play while he's healthy. No problem with sending him a message like that, but I don't want to fuck around with not having him as the starter. Hopefully he performs well and shuts bipolar fans up for awhile this week.

I don't consider my opinion to be bipolar.

We should demand that a QB of our team play at a high level. Sure there are fluctuations game to game and there's going to be great and poor games but overall he needs to perform. He's had one excellent game and the rest he's been below average to poor. That should be unacceptable to everyone. We've scored seven non offensive TD's to hold us over. That's not going to continue and the competition is getting better.

I realize I am in the minority. When I discuss this topic off board, people are willing to stick with Foles for the entire year, regardless of how bad it may get. To me, I'm too old to waste playoff possibilities on hurt feelings.
make_it_rain
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 30 2014, 10:21 PM) *
I realize I am in the minority. When I discuss this topic off board, people are willing to stick with Foles for the entire year, regardless of how bad it may get. To me, I'm too old to waste playoff possibilities on hurt feelings.


At this point, I certainly don't think Foles is entitled to the whole year, but its a bit early to be ready to pull the plug on him. He's running out of leeway though.

The odd thing is that even though the team is certainly winning in spite of Fole's play, they are still 5-2 and in decent shape for a playoff spot. Yes, Foles has been pretty bad and very inconsistent this season, but I don't think you can just switch starters mid season while the team is 5-2.

If he lays an egg the next few games and we drop to 5-4 or 5-5 the discussion will start, as by that point by count Foles will have either flat out sucked or played reasonable but with garbage decision making in 8 of 9 or 9 out of 10 games this season. The writing will be on the wall. Benching him in game as HOP suggested is a reasonable idea too, but then we open up a whole other mess if Sanchez comes in and rips it up.

Whats odd is a lot of the Foles apologists are saying "You know Sanchez isnt the guy, you might as well see what you have with Foles". One, we've seen a decent amount of Foles so far. Its his third season.
Two, what we've seen this season certainly hasn't shown anyone that Foles is "the guy", quite the opposite actually. How many more games does he need to get his shit together?

Three, I think there is some substance to the idea that the entire NY Jets organization is just a cancer to offensive play and quarterbacks in particular, and that there could be some talent hidden in Sanchez that never had a chance to flourish in that dumpster fire of an organization. Ironically enough, by the time it gets to that point, the script may have been flipped, and we may be saying "Well we know for sure that Foles isn't the guy, might as well see what we have with Sanchez"
mcnabbulous
I don't think Foles will win a SB. For that reason, it's worth seeing if the other guy could possibly be that guy.

Once I realized the same with Vick last year, I was comfortable giving Foles the chance. Going into the season, I thought there was a small chance that Vick could catch fire in Chip's offense (ala 2010) and surprise everyone.

Sanchez hasn't ever had great numbers, but he's been battle tested in the playoffs. He was a top-5 pick and was a damn good college QB. It's not like he was some career journeyman. Maybe, just maybe, with the right coaching, his potential can be realized.
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