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Zero
I get Lawlor's point, and I also get the point that they could have gotten him later. So the question isn't as much a value question but were they true to their board and did they draft the BPA with 26.
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The Eagles werenít interested in a pure speed rusher. They didnít want Dee Ford. The Eagles preferred a LB who was versatile. They donít want to line up and rush the same guys from the same spots over and over. Think about what Chip Kelly has said about Peyton Manning. You canít beat him playing straight up. You must be multiple. You must be creative. Smith can be effective rushing or covering. That is hugely important to the 3-4 defense and the zone blitz.

Smith had the size, skills, production and athleticism that the Eagles wanted. You can easily see where they had him rated higher than other players. You can also see where other teams didnít like him as much. Grades are specific to teams. Aaron Donald was coveted by many 4-3 teams. I doubt the Eagles had him on their board at all. Didnít fit.

Iím sure plenty of people saw Smith as a reach at 26. I doubt 4-3 teams saw him as a Top 50 player. But that is irrelevant to the Eagles and their board. They graded players on the qualities they prefer and how players fit their systems.
Linc ...

Due to their system and the type of player that they believe best fits their system did they grade Smith higher than everyone else? If you think they did well in the rest of the draft, what would make them panic or flinch or reach for a player with their first pick? Because the other guys they wanted and thought would be there for them were gone? Looking at the way they've played the draft the past couple of years, that doesn't fit.
Zero
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To make an incomplete if functional analogy, "consensus" is the noise that has come to envelop the draft: the speculation and the debate and the mock drafts and the coverage and Mel Kiper and Mike Mayock and the idea that Johnny Manziel "fell" to the 22d overall pick from some arbitrary, invisible pedestal that no one with any actual influence on the process had placed him on.

"Consensus" is a lot of fun, and it gives employment opportunities to people who otherwise would be standing on various Times Square street corners, wearing sandwich boards, shrieking at passersby, and it projected Marcus Smith - who finished second in the nation last season with 141/2 sacks - as a second- or third-round pick. "Consensus" is why the Eagles' decision to draft Smith when they did, with the 26th overall pick, stunned and angered so many people around here. This wasn't supposed to happen, after all, and why wasn't it supposed to happen? Because "consensus" said so.

But the NFL draft itself - not the hype and hubbub, but the actual selection of talent - isn't about "consensus." It's about science, or as close to science as pro-football player-evaluation gets, and the questions about whether the Eagles "reached" to take Smith or should have selected another player or attached too much value to acquiring an additional draft pick when they moved down on the board through their trade with the Cleveland Browns don't matter.

The only thing that's relevant now is the result of the selection, whether the wisdom of drafting Smith can be verified over time in the real world of the NFL. What matters is whether he can play.
Here ...
Zero
And, another way to look at this is that with their first pick (22) the Eagles got Marcus Smith, Jaylen Watkins, and Taylor Hart. wink.gif
Zero
And my monologue ends with this:
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And so, the Eagles selected Marcus Smith. Roseman basically admitted that the Eagles do not truly always draft the 'best player available' on their board.

"I do believe totally in the best player available, but we've always talked about tiers, too," said Roseman. "If guys are in the same tier, we look at the harder to find position and then we look at the other positions we're looking at, how the draft board looks. We've said from Day 1 that we think this is a really good receiver draft, and we didn't think this was a great pass rusher draft, and if we have those guys in the same tier we're going to take the pass rusher."

When asked directly if Smith was the highest rated player still on the board, Roseman did not flatly say "Yes," which he likely would have done if indeed that were the case.

"If they have the same grade, that's the hard part for us. When you're grading one by one, we basically give the definition of what we what we think those players are in that tier. We do rank those guys. To us, it's more important that they're in the same tier. It's hard to know 'Who's the 23rd guy? Who's the 24th guy?' It's where the drop-offs are."

Linc ...
nephillymike
Consensus said Jon Harris was 4th-5th round talent.

Consensus said that Jaquan Jarrett was 4th-5th round talent.

Consensus is not always wrong.

This year, consensus said that Clowney was the best prospect.

I need to study his tape that exists on the internet. My desk top went down yesterday and I'm a little limited to kids laptops. (while I was posting my annual draft day grade sad.gif.

I am most interested in why everyone had him as a 4-3 DE and not a 3-4 OLB. Drafttek always is careful to give 2nd positions to prospects. Traditionally, many prospects have the dual positon listing of 43DE and 34OLB. He did not.

Seems odd. For a guy to have 43DE only, it would mean he was seen as a hand in the dirt player only. They are normally pretty generous in the dual 43DE/34OLB designation.

It wasn't like he was an unknown 7th round prospect. He was a third round pick type so there was plenty of film in him.

Regarding of tiers, it makes sense to me. But it seems to me, that they boosted his rating up to a higher tier based upon the rarity of his skill set for their need. That's a reach. If he truly was the same tier as Dennard, Lee and Tuitt, well I guess we'll see.

If he can play, it doesn't matter. Like I said before, 3rd rounders have great careers too.

As far as some pundits only using 34 or 43 criteria, that's not true. Some prospects have different ratings depending on type of defense.
canadianeagle
QUOTE (Zero @ May 11 2014, 08:28 AM) *
And my monologue ends with this:

Linc ...


I also read the the Eagles had 6 guys that they loved. The hope was one of them would be available at the 22nd pick -- none of them were so they traded back.

If Clinton-Dix drops past Green Bay, I doubt the Eagles pass him up.
Zero
QUOTE (nephillymike @ May 11 2014, 10:51 AM) *
I need to study his tape that exists on the internet. My desk top went down yesterday and I'm a little limited to kids laptops. (while I was posting my annual draft day grade sad.gif.

Shoulda opened the Vault. biggrin.gif
make_it_rain
I was saying this earlier, but sheil at birds 24/7 put it nicely:

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If there was an obvious pick at No. 26 that the Eagles missed out on, I'm not seeing it. Was the pick a bit of a reach? Maybe. But a team like the Redskins might have very well taken Smith soon after he went off the board.


I think you could make a case that they should have stood pat at 22 and taken Dennard, but personally I prefer picking up the extra pick.

I saw a few mocks that had WR Matthews going to the Eagles in round 1. If you had told me we'd have Matthews and Marcus Smith after the first two rounds, I'd be satisfied, which is what we ended up with.
Flying Dutchman
QUOTE (make_it_rain @ May 11 2014, 02:53 PM) *
personally I prefer picking up the extra pick.


Actually, with the further trade they converted #22 into 3 picks using the third rounder to add #101 Jaylen Watkins
the 4.4 CB and #141 Taylor Hart the 6'6 DE. That's 3 decent picks for the 1st, fourth and fifth rounds for moving back a few spots and still beating out Washington and Dallas with their rumored interest in Smith.
Zero
One more chimes in on the Smith pick:
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After the Eagles drafted Smith 26th, no more potential 3-4 OLBs went in the first round, but five more were taken off the board in the second:

DeMarcus Lawrence went 34th to Dallas. Kyle Van Noy went 40th to Detroit. The Eagles traded up to grab receiver Jordan Matthews two picks later, and five picks after that, Washington drafted Trent Murphy. Three picks later, San Diego selected Jerry Attaochu 50th overall, and 10 picks later, Carolina took Kony Ealy.

So it was a smart decision to select Smith when they did.

Then again, you may ask: What if they'd drafted Marqise Lee 26th -- could they have moved up to grab Smith at 42? Maybe, but again, given the depth at receiver, the prudent move was to take Smith first. Having done that, they moved on to address wide receiver. And now, beggars could be choosers.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Zero @ May 12 2014, 07:17 PM) *
One more chimes in on the Smith pick:

Lee at 26 and Attaochu at 42 if you were worried about OLB.

If you loved Matthews , trade down out of 26 to early 30's and then go Matthews, Attaochu and another 2nd round pick.
D Rock
QUOTE (nephillymike @ May 11 2014, 03:51 PM) *
Consensus said Jon Harris was 4th-5th round talent.

Consensus said that Jaquan Jarrett was 4th-5th round talent.

Consensus is not always wrong.

This year, consensus said that Clowney was the best prospect.

I need to study his tape that exists on the internet. My desk top went down yesterday and I'm a little limited to kids laptops. (while I was posting my annual draft day grade sad.gif.

I am most interested in why everyone had him as a 4-3 DE and not a 3-4 OLB. Drafttek always is careful to give 2nd positions to prospects. Traditionally, many prospects have the dual positon listing of 43DE and 34OLB. He did not.

Seems odd. For a guy to have 43DE only, it would mean he was seen as a hand in the dirt player only. They are normally pretty generous in the dual 43DE/34OLB designation.

It wasn't like he was an unknown 7th round prospect. He was a third round pick type so there was plenty of film in him.

Regarding of tiers, it makes sense to me. But it seems to me, that they boosted his rating up to a higher tier based upon the rarity of his skill set for their need. That's a reach. If he truly was the same tier as Dennard, Lee and Tuitt, well I guess we'll see.

If he can play, it doesn't matter. Like I said before, 3rd rounders have great careers too.

As far as some pundits only using 34 or 43 criteria, that's not true. Some prospects have different ratings depending on type of defense.

Consensus is wrong too. Tom Brady a "consensus" 6th round pick. Jamarcus Russel a "consensus" first rounder.

I don't know about what some web site has him listed at. But I did look at the tape (that which was readily available over the past 2-3 days - I didn't do any research) and most of what I saw, had him lined up in different places, and usually standing up. Louisville was a 4/3 team his first year there. He was recruited to play qb. The defense switched to a 3/4 just this past season. And he played OLB.

My point is that it was certainly no mystery to this dunno diddley that he was not a 4/3 end last season. I don't know the folks you reference, but they whiffed on that perhaps more than the iggles.

mcnabbulous
Came across this Seahawks mock draft today. You should really read his entire analysis, but here are a few snippets.

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"With the 3rd pick of the 2nd round, the Seattle Seahawks select Louisville Defensive End, Marcus Smith."

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First and foremost, I loved Smith from his tape. I literally noticed him on accident while watching Calvin Pryor. Once you find one tape of a player you like, you have to look at as much of his tape as you can find.

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Smith, at 6í3"/251, with 34" arms is pretty much the prototype LEO build

FWIW - LEO is the weakside edge player in the Seahawks multiple defense.

This guy was generally debating the idea of the Seahawks making a trade out of the first round. Here was his thought:
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There is plenty of reason to wonder if Smith will even be available at 33, let alone at 35. This is why Iím suggesting the shortest trade back out of the 1st. I do NOT want to miss out on Smith.


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Anecdotally, it is worth mentioning a few things: 1) In the final game that Dan Quinn coached for the University of Florida, his Gators lost to Louisville. 2) I was able to track a handful of college games that John Schneider personally scouted this year. One of these games was Rutgers vs Louisville. Smith finished that game with 5 tackles and 3 sacks. 3) In one of the handful of pro days that Seahawk coaches are documented on video as attending, Dan Quinn was spotted at Louisvilleís.

It sounds like there is a very reasonable chance the Seahawks were interested in Smith at the end of round 1. It's impossible to say, but it's very reasonable to believe that a handful of teams were considering him in that range. Regardless of what the "consensus" indicated.
D Rock
and again . . .

of the tape that guy offers/shares . . . only ONE play has Smith playing with his hand in the dirt. Whoever said he's a 4/3 end simply didn't do their homework.
Flying Dutchman
Found this today on Tommy's site. It supports those of us who didn't agree that Smith could last til late round 2 or 3.
"John Kincaid (formerly of ESPN Radio and now working radio in Atlanta) was on WIP this morning. He said in all respect to Ray Didinger and all of the draftniks, they are wrong to think that Smith could have been taken late in Round 2 or in Round 3. He was told that Atlanta was trying to get #26 from the Eagles and Smith would have been the pick. He said Washington was also trying to get into the first round for him. He said at least one other team wanted #26. We already know that Dallas moved up to make sure they got a pass rusher."
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