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Full Version: So we are sitting there at 22 and the 19th pick is in
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nephillymike
First, I don't trade up. IMO,we need the picks.
After 19, there are four players I'm OK with at 22; Dennard, Lee, Ha Ha and Cooks. No need for me to trade up.

Ha Ha and Cooks go, so I pick Dennard. 14th best player, 2nd best CB in a dire position of need. Our two starting CB,s were poor.

Now, maybe I really want that extra pick and I look who may be there if I trade down;
I would be OK, dropping to 26 and picking any of the following;
Dennard, Lee, Tuitt, Ford, Roby, Sua Filo realizing my first two are long shots.

I get to 26, and I choose among Lee, Tuitt, Roby and Sua Filo. Any are fine, but I prefer a defender.

Now maybe at 26, I see a chance to drop into the early 2nd to trade down and pickup another 3rd(Bridgewater seekers?). So I look at who could be there in the early 2nd. The four above may have a slim chance, but add to that WR Robinson and Matthews and OLB Attaochu. At least two s/b available. Hindsight says at #36, 5 were available; Lee, Matthews, Tuitt, Robinson, Attaochu(who BTW was rated much higher than Smith on every of the nine boards I followed)

Either of the above three are way better than the collosal reach to get the 83rd best player, who if we still loved him, would be available at #54. We could have had any of the above in the first and Smith in the 2nd if we so desired.

No need to reach. Rookie move of seemingly desperation. I thought Howie was beyond that.

I've been following the draft closely for almost 20 years. Only Jon Harris was a worst reach.

Nothing against the kid. I hope he does well but we should have the benefit of another pick to go with him.
mcnabbulous
The Eagles board definitely was different than the numbers you were looking at. I think Smith's pass rushing skills were undervalued by draft pundits. He was more attractive an option than Attaochu.

The Eagles made a decision. Either pick a higher rated WR to appease the BPA crowd (like yourself) or realize there were far fewer pass rushers on the board and grab the guy they thought was best in that regard...with the realization they could get a WR later.

That's exactly what happened.

FWIW, it sounds like the Skins would have taken him at the beginning of the 2nd. I also think the Falcons may have been a serious threat to grab Smith.

Bottom line, you're over thinking this. You don't have access to the Eagles' or other team's boards.
TGryn
Reportedly Lee had medical concerns that pushed him out of the 1st.

Obviously they didn't think Dennard was a good fit for how we use our CBs, or he would have been the pick.

As I mentioned on the other thread, have to be careful with Smith's rankings, since a lot of them were looking at him as a DE instead of a 3-4 OLB.
JeeQ
While we're talking about what we should have done...

We just traded our 3rd away for a 4th & 5th and lost Nix

So now we've traded back in the 1st, for a 3rd that we gave away for a 4th and 5th

While trading a 4th to move up to grab Matthews when a 3rd is all it cost the Saints to move up and have a chance at Haha/Cooks

And now there's Josh Huff... Projected 5th/6th rounder in the 3rd... Was there no one there who could have mentioned Donte Moncrief? Projected 1st Rounder, 6'2, 221lbs
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (JeeQ @ May 9 2014, 09:31 PM) *
While we're talking about what we should have done...

We just traded our 3rd away for a 4th & 5th and lost Nix

So now we've traded back in the 1st, for a 3rd that we gave away for a 4th and 5th

While trading a 4th to move up to grab Matthews when a 3rd is all it cost the Saints to move up and have a chance at Haha/Cooks

And now there's Josh Hoff.. Projected 5th/6th rounder

Wow, can't believe we gave up an opportunity to draft Nix (who was only passed up 82 times!)

And you think Howie is doing a bad job...

JeeQ
He's doing a fantastic job, in fact I'm going to call him Mr. Fantastic for his ability to reach in every round... and what do you know there goes Moncrief off the board
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (JeeQ @ May 9 2014, 09:53 PM) *
He's doing a fantastic job, in fact I'm going to call him Mr. Fantastic for his ability to reach in every round

You've embarrassed yourself enough for one draft. Sit tomorrow out.

You think Marcus Smart was a terrible reach, but had we taken Louis Nix #26, you'd be fucking stoked. A guy that no one else in the NFL deemed worthy of being drafted before #83.

Log off.
JeeQ
I would've kept the #83 pick and drafted Nix, and as unreal as it sounds I imagine Josh Huff still would've been there at #86 if we wanted him

As it stands two of our top three draft picks have gone towards filling a position hole that wasn't even there before we created it
nephillymike
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ May 9 2014, 09:12 PM) *
The Eagles board definitely was different than the numbers you were looking at. I think Smith's pass rushing skills were undervalued by draft pundits. He was more attractive an option than Attaochu.

The Eagles made a decision. Either pick a higher rated WR to appease the BPA crowd (like yourself) or realize there were far fewer pass rushers on the board and grab the guy they thought was best in that regard...with the realization they could get a WR later.

That's exactly what happened.

FWIW, it sounds like the Skins would have taken him at the beginning of the 2nd. I also think the Falcons may have been a serious threat to grab Smith.

Bottom line, you're over thinking this. You don't have access to the Eagles' or other team's boards.



I don't know how old you are but when we took Harris, there were rumors that GB was going to get him if we didn't.

It was revealed later on that they would have, if he was there in the 4th round!!

Same thing here.

97.5 spoke with other scouts/GM's, they said third round.

There was one guy who had him in the first. Daniel Jermiah a former Eagles scout. Any chance that his former employer tipped him off? Makes him look good if he's the only one who has it and makes the team look good in that at least someone has it.

The great majority of the time, when someone is a reach like this versus consensus, it doesn't work out.
nephillymike
QUOTE (TGryn @ May 9 2014, 09:25 PM) *
Reportedly Lee had medical concerns that pushed him out of the 1st.

Obviously they didn't think Dennard was a good fit for how we use our CBs, or he would have been the pick.

As I mentioned on the other thread, have to be careful with Smith's rankings, since a lot of them were looking at him as a DE instead of a 3-4 OLB.

Yeah but TG, his film was as a DE!!!

Then the Eagles bring him in, run him thru a few LB drills and all of a sudden, he's a first round OLB talent??

The guy didn't play defense until he couldn't cut it as a QB at Louisville!

Also, I thought Dennard's in your face style exactly matches how we play our CB's, no??
nephillymike
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ May 9 2014, 09:57 PM) *
You've embarrassed yourself enough for one draft. Sit tomorrow out.

You think Marcus Smart was a terrible reach, but had we taken Louis Nix #26, you'd be fucking stoked. A guy that no one else in the NFL deemed worthy of being drafted before #83.

Log off.



Eh, a Freudian (sp?) slip. I too would be happier with Marcus SMART!! devil03.gif
nephillymike
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ May 9 2014, 09:45 PM) *
Wow, can't believe we gave up an opportunity to draft Nix (who was only passed up 82 times!)

And you think Howie is doing a bad job...




I know I'm picking nits here, but the point is he started with 22 that became 26 that became 3rd rounder Marcus Smith!!
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (nephillymike @ May 9 2014, 11:18 PM) *
I don't know how old you are but when we took Harris, there were rumors that GB was going to get him if we didn't.

It was revealed later on that they would have, if he was there in the 4th round!!

Same thing here.

97.5 spoke with other scouts/GM's, they said third round.

There was one guy who had him in the first. Daniel Jermiah a former Eagles scout. Any chance that his former employer tipped him off? Makes him look good if he's the only one who has it and makes the team look good in that at least someone has it.

The great majority of the time, when someone is a reach like this versus consensus, it doesn't work out.


There is zero chance he was sniffing the third round. Pass rushers, like QBs get drafted higher than their grades. That doesn't make them a reach. If we had drafted Matthews first and Smith next, no one would be complaining.
Our FO is just savvy enough to realize that the WRs would fall. Pass rushers wouldn't.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (nephillymike @ May 9 2014, 11:21 PM) *
Yeah but TG, his film was as a DE!!!

Then the Eagles bring him in, run him thru a few LB drills and all of a sudden, he's a first round OLB talent??

The guy didn't play defense until he couldn't cut it as a QB at Louisville!

Also, I thought Dennard's in your face style exactly matches how we play our CB's, no??


You can't tell me you watched his film and suggest he was a DE. He was standing up in nearly every bit I have watched. Additionally they had him moving around. I saw him rushing from both sides and right up the gut.
As for Dennard, they want someone who is 6'1" or above. That's the type of corner they will draft.
TGryn
QUOTE (nephillymike @ May 9 2014, 08:21 PM) *
Yeah but TG, his film was as a DE!!!

Go look at the highlights I posted in the other thread. You'll see him getting used as a roving LB, standup DE, and dropping into coverage; his position was closer to the "rover LB" that Jim Johnson used to use with guys like Kearse than a standard foot-on-the-ground DE. He also played OLB at the Senior Bowl where he showed good coverage skills and mobility. There's plenty to evaluate his potential as a LB prospect, but a lot of boards didn't treat him as such. As a standard 4-3 or 3-4 DE, he's not nearly as useful, hence his lower ratings if that's solely how he's being rated vis-a-vis other guys who are bigger at DE.

I should mention that Trent Cole had some of the same problems in reverse way back when - was being evaluated as a LB when his position was DE - which is one reason he dropped to the 5th where we got him. Here's Cole's predraft writeup:
QUOTE
BIO: Three-year starter and All-Conference selection who posted 68/22/8.5 as a senior. Junior totals included 88/14/5.

POSITIVES: Undersized collegiate defensive end who projects to linebacker in the NFL. Plays with leverage keeping his pads low to the ground, displays explosion and moves well laterally. Rarely off his feet, fluid changing direction and has the ability to immediately alter his angle of attack. Pursues from the backside or comes off the edge with speed.

NEGATIVES: Slow getting off blocks and easily wired at the point. Shows some hesitation in his game and not overly instinctive.

ANALYSIS: A defender best making plays up the field, Cole must now learn to play in space. Used at outside linebacker during the Senior Bowl and struggled. May be best standing over tackle in a 34 defense.

PROJECTION: Mid Fifth Round
JeeQ


nephillymike
QUOTE (TGryn @ May 10 2014, 10:35 AM) *
Go look at the highlights I posted in the other thread. You'll see him getting used as a roving LB, standup DE, and dropping into coverage; his position was closer to the "rover LB" that Jim Johnson used to use with guys like Kearse than a standard foot-on-the-ground DE. He also played OLB at the Senior Bowl where he showed good coverage skills and mobility. There's plenty to evaluate his potential as a LB prospect, but a lot of boards didn't treat him as such. As a standard 4-3 or 3-4 DE, he's not nearly as useful, hence his lower ratings if that's solely how he's being rated vis-a-vis other guys who are bigger at DE.

I should mention that Trent Cole had some of the same problems in reverse way back when - was being evaluated as a LB when his position was DE - which is one reason he dropped to the 5th where we got him. Here's Cole's predraft writeup:

thanks for the info. If he was miscast per se, wouldn't he have dropped too giving us the opportunity to get him later , 2nd if not 3rd, like Cole?

drafttek is real generous in assigning second positions and they didn't have one for him.

I hope he does real well, but we jumped too early picking him in the first.
Zero
If they had taken Matthews at 26 and Smith in the second would it have made a difference?
Phits
QUOTE (nephillymike @ May 10 2014, 02:30 PM) *
thanks for the info. If he was miscast per se, wouldn't he have dropped too giving us the opportunity to get him later , 2nd if not 3rd, like Cole?

drafttek is real generous in assigning second positions and they didn't have one for him.

I hope he does real well, but we jumped too early picking him in the first.

I'm not sure I see the controversy? As I am not aware, was there a sure fire lock available at #26? Moreover, do a scouting sites evaluate the value of a player skills/mindset/character to every team and their program?
samaroo
QUOTE (Zero @ May 10 2014, 01:56 PM) *
If they had taken Matthews at 26 and Smith in the second would it have made a difference?


Good point. Some had Matthews as a late first/early second, but there was a bunch of other receivers out there. Not so with OLB. It seems like the team knows who they want and are going for them aggressively. I don't think many team's boards match the "experts," but especially (i think) the Eagle's.
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