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D Rock
I've not been around much lately, and came by today to read y'alls thoughts on DJax's dismissal. Seems most support the team here.

For me, I've got no problem with it.

I was surprised when stories started to surface that they were shopping him. I was shocked when it became apparent they couldn't get so much as a 4th round pick for the guy. Especially considering what was given up for Percy Harvin last season. For my money, DJax is at least as good as Percy Phuquing Harvin.

He was apparently a bad locker room presence with missing meetings, being late and that sort of "me me me" crap. At even league minimum compensation levels, that shit is intolerable to most honest working folk.

The gang stuff is part and parcel to a kid growing up in the LBC. I can't see that as being a huge factor in this decision. Certainly, it was known info pre-draft. Certainly, it was known info, pre the contract extension.

In the end, Chip didn't draft him. Chip didn't agree to the new contract. Chip simply didn't want him.

I keep thinking this scenario is a bit like the Chris Carter deal back in the buddy days. Buddy refused to ruin the young Carter and gladly took the heat for cutting the guy because he "just caught touchdowns." I'd bet that one day a few years from now, it'll come out in the wash just how much of a douche DJax has been being behind the scenes. It doesn't seem as if he's got a great deal of support from his own (former) team mates which to me is quite telling. And I'm not buying the idea that iggles players are biting their tongues because they're worried about pissing off the coach or front office. That's just silly.

With Vick and Avant now gone, Chip was likely worried about the influence DJax's behavior might have on a young team. I'm ok with it. I don't think DJax is irreplaceable. I don't think we'll suffer on offense in his absence.

It sucks we couldn't get anything in return, but ultimately . . . "Don't let the door hit you on the ass, DJax." He was a one trick pony and a borderline malcontent. I wont miss him in the least.
Jax
No arguments here
Zero
Reasonable. I still want to see if there's more to know ... someday.
BirdsWinBaby
QUOTE (D Rock @ Mar 31 2014, 04:22 PM) *
I'm ok with it. I don't think DJax is irreplaceable. I don't think we'll suffer on offense in his absence.

It sucks we couldn't get anything in return, but ultimately . . . "Don't let the door hit you on the ass, DJax." He was a one trick pony and a borderline malcontent. I wont miss him in the least.



agreed
BirdsWinBaby
QUOTE (Zero @ Mar 31 2014, 06:01 PM) *
Reasonable. I still want to see if there's more to know ... someday.



i dont care really. on the radio (not saying you zero) all day i have heard that fans feel they are owed an explanation. normally i want answers not because i feel we are "owed" anything but simply cuz im curious

this time its different tho....if Djax/Chip/Howie never speak of this again i wont give it a second thought.
nephillymike
QUOTE (BirdsWinBaby @ Mar 31 2014, 06:08 PM) *
i dont care really. on the radio (not saying you zero) all day i have heard that fans feel they are owed an explanation. normally i want answers not because i feel we are "owed" anything but simply cuz im curious

this time its different tho....if Djax/Chip/Howie never speak of this again i wont give it a second thought.

Wow!

I hope they appreciate the unshakeable loyalty.
BirdsWinBaby
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Mar 31 2014, 07:12 PM) *
Wow!

I hope they appreciate the unshakeable loyalty.


nah i wouldnt call it loyalty....let them lose a few games and i will bitching and calling for heads to roll like my frothy-mouthed brethren

its just that having DeSean be the focus of my team's offense was something i never liked. i aint gonna look a gift horse in the mouth

**double down**
I hope he signs with the 'skinz
Jax
QUOTE (BirdsWinBaby @ Mar 31 2014, 06:27 PM) *
**double down**
I hope he signs with the 'skinz


Lol!!!!!!
Phits
QUOTE (BirdsWinBaby @ Mar 31 2014, 07:08 PM) *
i dont care really. on the radio (not saying you zero) all day i have heard that fans feel they are owed an explanation. normally i want answers not because i feel we are "owed" anything but simply cuz im curious

this time its different tho....if Djax/Chip/Howie never speak of this again i wont give it a second thought.

z'actly my sentiments
Flying Dutchman
WOW, a thread I can "mostly" agree with. Rock, you have hit the nail right on the head. Kudos, my friend!
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (D Rock @ Mar 31 2014, 03:22 PM) *
I've not been around much lately, and came by today to read y'alls thoughts on DJax's dismissal. Seems most support the team here.

For me, I've got no problem with it.

I was surprised when stories started to surface that they were shopping him. I was shocked when it became apparent they couldn't get so much as a 4th round pick for the guy. Especially considering what was given up for Percy Harvin last season. For my money, DJax is at least as good as Percy Phuquing Harvin.

He was apparently a bad locker room presence with missing meetings, being late and that sort of "me me me" crap. At even league minimum compensation levels, that shit is intolerable to most honest working folk.

The gang stuff is part and parcel to a kid growing up in the LBC. I can't see that as being a huge factor in this decision. Certainly, it was known info pre-draft. Certainly, it was known info, pre the contract extension.

In the end, Chip didn't draft him. Chip didn't agree to the new contract. Chip simply didn't want him.

I keep thinking this scenario is a bit like the Chris Carter deal back in the buddy days. Buddy refused to ruin the young Carter and gladly took the heat for cutting the guy because he "just caught touchdowns." I'd bet that one day a few years from now, it'll come out in the wash just how much of a douche DJax has been being behind the scenes. It doesn't seem as if he's got a great deal of support from his own (former) team mates which to me is quite telling. And I'm not buying the idea that iggles players are biting their tongues because they're worried about pissing off the coach or front office. That's just silly.

With Vick and Avant now gone, Chip was likely worried about the influence DJax's behavior might have on a young team. I'm ok with it. I don't think DJax is irreplaceable. I don't think we'll suffer on offense in his absence.

It sucks we couldn't get anything in return, but ultimately . . . "Don't let the door hit you on the ass, DJax." He was a one trick pony and a borderline malcontent. I wont miss him in the least.

I've already lived through the "talent doesn't matter, it's all about the scheme" mentality at the WR position. Additionally, plenty of shittier personalities have succeeded in the NFL. Chip gets paid a shit ton of money to maximize talent.
We are less talented because he couldn't deal with Desean.
I'm not fond of the move, in any capacity. That one trick was making more big play TD's than anyone in the league. One more hole to fill, one further step from a title.

Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 1 2014, 01:41 PM) *
I've already lived through the "talent doesn't matter, it's all about the scheme" mentality at the WR position. Additionally, plenty of shittier personalities have succeeded in the NFL. Chip gets paid a shit ton of money to maximize talent.
We are less talented because he couldn't deal with Desean.
I'm not fond of the move, in any capacity. That one trick was making more big play TD's than anyone in the league. One more hole to fill, one further step from a title.

Talent doesn't equate to wins, let alone championships. or have you forgotten the Dream Team debacle a few seasons ago? Redskins fans can also validate that argument.
Jax
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 1 2014, 12:41 PM) *
I've already lived through the "talent doesn't matter, it's all about the scheme" mentality at the WR position. Additionally, plenty of shittier personalities have succeeded in the NFL. Chip gets paid a shit ton of money to maximize talent.
We are less talented because he couldn't deal with Desean.
I'm not fond of the move, in any capacity. That one trick was making more big play TD's than anyone in the league. One more hole to fill, one further step from a title.

Well, then I assume the Skins have one less hole to fill and are one step closer to a title.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (Jax @ Apr 1 2014, 02:51 PM) *
Well, then I assume the Skins have one less hole to fill and are one step closer to a title.


They are - they'll still probably suck, but a healthy and recovered RGIII throwing to Garcon and DJax will make them a better team, while we just became a worse team.
TGryn
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Apr 1 2014, 11:22 AM) *
They are - they'll still probably suck, but a healthy and recovered RGIII throwing to Garcon and DJax will make them a better team, while we just became a worse team.

Maybe. Team chemistry is hard to get a handle on if you're not in the locker room, but its the thing that brought down the "Dream Team" in 2011. Gruden will be under tremendous pressure to yield to anything RGIII wants, after how the latter helped run Shanahan out of town. That's already a potential volatile situation. The only thing we can be confident of if they add DJax to that mix is that he won't be a mature veteran presence, since he's never shown that capacity.
mcnabbulous
The dream team failed because it was QB'd by Michael Vick and had a way past it's prime Nnamdi playing cornerback. Not to mention the same dogshit safety play we're seeing now.

I can call my dog a duck all day long, but it makes him a duck just as much as that was a real dream team.

Talent directly equates to championships. There are other factors, but without talent, you won't win championships.
TGryn
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 1 2014, 02:15 PM) *
The dream team failed because it was QB'd by Michael Vick and had a way past it's prime Nnamdi playing cornerback. Not to mention the same dogshit safety play we're seeing now.

Vick was the 4th best QB in the NFL in 2010 and Nnamdi was regarded as the best FA available that year; even in 2012, when NA was used solely as a man-to-man CB he blanketed Megatron. Sorry, but talent wasn't the problem that year.

That neither the coaches nor the players could get along, i.e. chemistry, was. The stuff that came out after both Castillo then Washburn were fired about how Washburn was running his own fiefdom and openly dissing Castillo in front of the players was probably just the tip of the iceberg. Not playing as much attention to how potential additions would fit in the system and in the locker room is a big reason Reid isn't here anymore. If Kelly felt DJax was going to be a problem that way, then you lance the boil and move forward. Otherwise, you lose the team.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (TGryn @ Apr 1 2014, 05:39 PM) *
Vick was the 4th best QB in the NFL in 2010 and Nnamdi was regarded as the best FA available that year; even in 2012, when NA was used solely as a man-to-man CB he blanketed Megatron. Sorry, but talent wasn't the problem that year.

Nmandi was really bad in 2011. Including the preseason. It was obvious from day one that his wheels had come off. He was subsequently out of the league in less than 2 years. That should tell you everything you need to know.

Vick was Vick. 2010 was the anomaly. Not anything else. We were an average to above average team, talent-wise. And that's just how we finished.
QUOTE
That neither the coaches nor the players could get along, i.e. chemistry, was. The stuff that came out after both Castillo then Washburn were fired about how Washburn was running his own fiefdom and openly dissing Castillo in front of the players was probably just the tip of the iceberg. Not playing as much attention to how potential additions would fit in the system and in the locker room is a big reason Reid isn't here anymore. If Kelly felt DJax was going to be a problem that way, then you lance the boil and move forward. Otherwise, you lose the team.


I think winning/losing creates chemistry, not the other way around. Countless Patriots teams have had shittier people than DJax in their locker room. Their well-paid coach figured out how to make it work.

Like I said, we've seen this mentality before. What was the piece that ultimately got us to the SB that differed from those other teams? The headcase WR that just happened to be really, really good.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (D Rock @ Mar 31 2014, 03:22 PM) *
I've not been around much lately, and came by today to read y'alls thoughts on DJax's dismissal. Seems most support the team here.

For me, I've got no problem with it.

I was surprised when stories started to surface that they were shopping him. I was shocked when it became apparent they couldn't get so much as a 4th round pick for the guy. Especially considering what was given up for Percy Harvin last season. For my money, DJax is at least as good as Percy Phuquing Harvin.

He was apparently a bad locker room presence with missing meetings, being late and that sort of "me me me" crap. At even league minimum compensation levels, that shit is intolerable to most honest working folk.

The gang stuff is part and parcel to a kid growing up in the LBC. I can't see that as being a huge factor in this decision. Certainly, it was known info pre-draft. Certainly, it was known info, pre the contract extension.

In the end, Chip didn't draft him. Chip didn't agree to the new contract. Chip simply didn't want him.

I keep thinking this scenario is a bit like the Chris Carter deal back in the buddy days. Buddy refused to ruin the young Carter and gladly took the heat for cutting the guy because he "just caught touchdowns." I'd bet that one day a few years from now, it'll come out in the wash just how much of a douche DJax has been being behind the scenes. It doesn't seem as if he's got a great deal of support from his own (former) team mates which to me is quite telling. And I'm not buying the idea that iggles players are biting their tongues because they're worried about pissing off the coach or front office. That's just silly.

With Vick and Avant now gone, Chip was likely worried about the influence DJax's behavior might have on a young team. I'm ok with it. I don't think DJax is irreplaceable. I don't think we'll suffer on offense in his absence.

It sucks we couldn't get anything in return, but ultimately . . . "Don't let the door hit you on the ass, DJax." He was a one trick pony and a borderline malcontent. I wont miss him in the least.


just about perfectly stated
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 1 2014, 05:57 PM) *
Nmandi was really bad in 2011. Including the preseason. It was obvious from day one that his wheels had come off. He was subsequently out of the league in less than 2 years. That should tell you everything you need to know.

Vick was Vick. 2010 was the anomaly. Not anything else. We were an average to above average team, talent-wise. And that's just how we finished.


I think winning/losing creates chemistry, not the other way around. Countless Patriots teams have had shittier people than DJax in their locker room. Their well-paid coach figured out how to make it work.

Like I said, we've seen this mentality before. What was the piece that ultimately got us to the SB that differed from those other teams? The headcase WR that just happened to be really, really good.


funny you mention the Patriots....

2 of their 3 SBs were with the leading WR getting 57 or less grabs....Brady did well with good WRs.......Somehow they won without the stud WR.

While teams need some talent anyone who thinks winning breeds chemistry has not played on too many good teams. Great chemistry can amplify good talent......many teams have underachieved with great talent but no chemistry...it happens

Jackson was a speed guy.....with good hands....while not certain there is a decent possibility that they get a guy who will approach that in 2 years in this draft...

I want to see what happens if jackson goes to a new team and is the Jackson we did not like.......even last year Jackson was feast or famine.....
nephillymike
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 1 2014, 12:41 PM) *
I've already lived through the "talent doesn't matter, it's all about the scheme" mentality at the WR position. Additionally, plenty of shittier personalities have succeeded in the NFL. Chip gets paid a shit ton of money to maximize talent.
We are less talented because he couldn't deal with Desean.
I'm not fond of the move, in any capacity. That one trick was making more big play TD's than anyone in the league. One more hole to fill, one further step from a title.

Yep.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Apr 1 2014, 07:12 PM) *
funny you mention the Patriots....

2 of their 3 SBs were with the leading WR getting 57 or less grabs....Brady did well with good WRs.......Somehow they won without the stud WR.

Yes, they won with the great defense and HoF QB. We don't have a good defense. We need a great offense right now.

It wasn't until the Patriots got that headcase, uber talented WR that they had the great offense. It didn't win them a championship, but it got them pretty close.

QUOTE
While teams need some talent anyone who thinks winning breeds chemistry has not played on too many good teams. Great chemistry can amplify good talent......many teams have underachieved with great talent but no chemistry...it happens

Like I said, there have been many apples that are much worse than Desean Jackson. Additionally, lots of coaches have made it work with those guys.

QUOTE
Jackson was a speed guy.....with good hands....while not certain there is a decent possibility that they get a guy who will approach that in 2 years in this draft...

I want to see what happens if jackson goes to a new team and is the Jackson we did not like.......even last year Jackson was feast or famine.....

Maybe in two years, we'll be happy with our WR haul. Right now, it's worse than it was a week ago. And that will be the case this season. A season in which I hoped we would compete for a title. That hope is basically dashed before it's even started.
Jax
nm
Phits
When's the last time the most "talented" team won a championship?

QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 1 2014, 08:24 PM) *
Yes, they won with the great defense and HoF QB. We don't have a good defense. We need a great offense right now.

It wasn't until the Patriots got that headcase, uber talented WR that they had the great offense. It didn't win them a championship, but it got them pretty close.


Like I said, there have been many apples that are much worse than Desean Jackson. Additionally, lots of coaches have made it work with those guys.


Maybe in two years, we'll be happy with our WR haul. Right now, it's worse than it was a week ago. And that will be the case this season. A season in which I hoped we would compete for a title. That hope is basically dashed before it's even started.

JeeQ
Saving this thread so I can remember where everyone stood on releasing a Pro Bowl WR in their prime... Hopefully for the Eagles sake I'll be the one eating crow on this one
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Apr 1 2014, 09:26 PM) *
When's the last time the most "talented" team won a championship?


How do you quantify "most talented team?"
Certainly the Seahawks were amongst that upper-echelon. They, along with SF, were the clear preseason NFC favorites.
You either have to be in that group, or have a really upstanding locker room environment with choir boys. Like the Ravens. Ya know, guys that knock out their fiances, throw bleach on their girlfriends, and get arrested for involvement in murder. Real classy like.
TGryn
I think that if we'd still had Dawkins around, or if Avant had had a few more years under his belt, the "dream team" of 2011/2012 probably turns out a lot differently. Having good leaders is hard to quantify on paper, but if you don't have them things can sink pretty quickly once adversity strikes, no matter how much raw talent a team has.
Jax
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 2 2014, 06:11 AM) *
Like the Ravens. Ya know, guys that knock out their fiances, throw bleach on their girlfriends, and get arrested for involvement in murder. Real classy like.

So I guess you'd be cool with a team full of those guys if we win the SB?
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (JeeQ @ Apr 2 2014, 01:16 AM) *
Saving this thread so I can remember where everyone stood on releasing a Pro Bowl WR in their prime... Hopefully for the Eagles sake I'll be the one eating crow on this one


Yup, it'll be fun or depressing to revisit this thread in 9 months.
make_it_rain
QUOTE (Jax @ Apr 2 2014, 09:30 AM) *
So I guess you'd be cool with a team full of those guys if we win the SB?


Yes. Is this even a serious question?

mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Jax @ Apr 2 2014, 08:30 AM) *
So I guess you'd be cool with a team full of those guys if we win the SB?


I think the coaches job, especially a coach being paid $6.5mm, is to maximize talent. Not minimize it and use a players attitude as an excuse.
As I've said several times, there are far worse guys in the league than DJax. Other coaches have made it work.
We are less talented than a week ago. The Skins are more talented at our expense. That's on Chip.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (Jax @ Apr 2 2014, 09:30 AM) *
So I guess you'd be cool with a team full of those guys if we win the SB?


A couple gangland murders and a woman getting beaten in a casino elevator, in exchange for 2 rings. Umm, I don't know..... uh FUCK YES!?!?!
JeeQ
QUOTE (Jax @ Apr 2 2014, 06:30 AM) *
So I guess you'd be cool with a team full of those guys if we win the SB?


A hundred times over yes, this is the NFL, not the gentlemen's club as Chip Kelly is going to soon learn.Look at this police blotter on PFT PFT Police Blotter. There's at least 5-10 NFL players getting arrested/charged every month. Look at this year alone and it's only been three months

QUOTE
3/31/14: Bengals FB Orson Charles is charged with wanton endangerment.

3/29/14: Rams CB Greg Reid is arrested for violating probation.

3/28/14: 49ers CB Chris Culliver is charged with felony hit and run, misdemeanor reckless driving, and felony possession of brass knuckles.

3/16/14: Colts owner Jim Irsay is arrested for DUI and four felony counts of possession of a controlled substance.

3/9/14: Raves OL Jah Reid is arrested on two counts of battery.

2/21/14: Ravens WR Deonte Thompson is arrested for suspicion of possession of marijuana.

2/18/14: Falcons WR Roddy White is arrested for failing to appear in court.

2/14/14: Ravens RB Ray Rice is charged with simple assault.

1/26/14: 49ers G Daniel Kilgore is arrested for public intoxication.

1/17/14: Browns WR Davone Bess is arrested for battery of a police officer.

1/12/14: Seahawks RB Spencer Ware is arrested for DUI.

1/9/14: Buccaneers RB Michael Hill is arrested for failure to obey a lawful order and resisting arrest.

1/1/14: Vikings LB Erin Henderson is arrested on suspicion of DUI.


What's so strange is that gang banger DeSean isn't anywhere on it
mcnabbulous
Some of these guys apparently want to marry Miss Congeniality. I want to bang Miss Universe.
TGryn
JeeQ: I note that most of the guys on that list are from bad teams - Vikings, Bucs, Browns, Ravens (missed the playoffs last year). Think that just maybe having troubled guys around correlates with losing?

I note for the "talent on the field is everything, the locker room is nothing" crowd that OG Richie Incognito is available, and that he did make the Pro Bowl in 2012. Feel free to start the bandwagon for signing him.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (TGryn @ Apr 2 2014, 10:32 AM) *
JeeQ: I note that most of the guys on that list are from bad teams - Vikings, Bucs, Browns, Ravens (missed the playoffs last year). Think that just maybe having troubled guys around correlates with losing?

I note for the "talent on the field is everything, the locker room is nothing" crowd that OG Richie Incognito is available, and that he did make the Pro Bowl in 2012. Feel free to start the bandwagon for signing him.


First, Desean has never done anything off the field to get in trouble. Or cause embarrassment to the organization.
Second, he's a proven asset on the field, in our system, in the prime of his career.
Incognito is none of those things.
D Rock
Nonsense. Incognito is certainly an asshat, but he's also one of the 3 best OGuards in the league. He's a beast.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (D Rock @ Apr 2 2014, 11:08 AM) *
Nonsense. Incognito is certainly an asshat, but he's also one of the 3 best OGuards in the league. He's a beast.

We have proven to have very different value systems for guards. Incognito is a shitbag who definitely isn't worth the headache. Especially as an outsider.

Desean was a proven entity, on our roster.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 2 2014, 12:49 PM) *
Desean was a proven entity, on our roster.

The front office decided he wasn't worth the headaches. I'm not in the locker room so i will have to take their word for it, and support their decision.
D Rock
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 2 2014, 04:49 PM) *
We have proven to have very different value systems for guards. Incognito is a shitbag who definitely isn't worth the headache. Especially as an outsider.

Desean was a proven entity, on our roster.

You said "desean was a proven entity on the field" and incognito was not.

The latter half of that statement is factually inaccurate.
mcnabbulous
I said "in our system."
Jax
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 2 2014, 08:57 AM) *
As I've said several times, there are far worse guys in the league than DJax. Other coaches have made it work.

You were singing a different tune after the Cooper incident.
Jax
QUOTE (JeeQ @ Apr 2 2014, 09:45 AM) *
A hundred times over yes, this is the NFL, not the gentlemen's club as Chip Kelly is going to soon learn.


A SB just isn't that important to me. I want to win but I will be an Eagles fan regardless. I don't have a hard-on for a SB as if it will justify my being or something. Sorry.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Jax @ Apr 2 2014, 01:37 PM) *
You were singing a different tune after the Cooper incident.


You'd have to be more specific, but Desean is more talented than Riley. And I found Riley's behavior to be more offensive than the stuff I know about Desean.
JeeQ
So you defend Incognito and Cooper, but agree with releasing DeSean on suspicion...

I bet the same people who are happy DeSean is gone would sign Incognito in a heartbeat
MistahNickells
QUOTE (JeeQ @ Apr 2 2014, 04:18 PM) *
So you defend Incognito and Cooper, but agree with releasing DeSean on suspicion...

I bet the same people who are happy DeSean is gone would sign Incognito in a heartbeat

seems odd to me to say the least
Jax
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 2 2014, 02:29 PM) *
You'd have to be more specific, but Desean is more talented than Riley. And I found Riley's behavior to be more offensive than the stuff I know about Desean.

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Jax @ Apr 2 2014, 03:24 PM) *
laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Constructive as always.
D Rock
QUOTE (JeeQ @ Apr 2 2014, 08:18 PM) *
So you defend Incognito and Cooper, but agree with releasing DeSean on suspicion...

I bet the same people who are happy DeSean is gone would sign Incognito in a heartbeat

I've defended no one. I simply disagreed with the notion that Incognito was less than a productive player on the field.

And as far as you or I know . . . Desean was NOT released "on suspicion." We have no idea why he was released. To suggest otherwise is simply wrong.

For the record, I wouldn't want Incognito in my locker room. He's an asshole.
JaxEagle
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 2 2014, 03:25 PM) *
Constructive as always.

Well if that ain't the pot calling the kettle black...
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