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nephillymike
I went to Spotrac and looked at all the trades since 2010 and picked out the significant Wr trades.

From best for the seller to worse to the seller, age and stats for previous year (REc, Yds, TD's)

'13 P. Harvin from MIN to SEA for a 1st, 3rd and 7th (24, 62-677 3)
'10 B. Marshall from DEN to MIA for Two 2nds (26, 86-1014, 3)
'10 A. Boldin from ARI to BAL + 5th for 3rd and 4th (29,84-1024,4)
'10 R. Moss from NE to MIN for 3rd (33, 83-1264, 13)
'10 D. Branch from NE to SEA for 4th (31, 45-437, 2)
'11 L. Evans from BUF to BAL for 4th (29, 37-578,4)
'10 S. Holmes from PIT to NYJ for 5th (25,79-1248,5)

'14 D. Jackson from PHI to ??? for ??? (27, 82-1332, 9)

Interesting that Harvin, Marshall, Moss and Holmes all were somewhat problems.

His production is better than all of the above in year before.
His age is better than most.
His assholedness in this sample is probably average.

His FMV in the world of many times useless draft picks IMO is two 2nd round picks.

Because of the shit that hit the fan, we wont get more than a third round pick. Those are good though because they have a slightly above 50% chance of being in the league over four years mad.gif
Zero
Just curious. Do believe the Eagles had a better way out of this, assuming the latest report is accurate?
nephillymike
QUOTE (Zero @ Mar 22 2014, 08:06 PM) *
Just curious. Do believe the Eagles had a better way out of this, assuming the latest report is accurate?

what latest report are you referring to?
Zero
DJax ignoring his coaches calls.
nephillymike
I will assume that in their mind that was such a sign of disrespect that it was beyond repair.

If that's all it is, it isn't for me, but to each their own.

So now it is February 28th and they've absolutely had it with DJax.

What to do?

At that point, my responsibility as Howie is to cut out the cancer AND make the team better.

I trade him for what would have been more value than now for two reasons: 1. all the shit hadn't hit the fan and 2. teams had more cap space because free agency hadn't hit yet.

Think about it. On the trade market, he would have been a top five talent if not better. Leverage in our favor.

Now it's early March, I cut the cancer out, I have a draft pick, which even if it's not that useful, it's more useful than the one I'll get now.

AND, here's the kicker, I have $10.75M of cash to go out in the free agency market (and 6.5M of cap space) to go buy me a player to fill one of my needs that still exist.

Then I no longer have the need of the defensive position to fill in the draft, it frees up that spot to draft DJax' replacement if the board tells me to, and I am free to do so without risking not filling a need at another position in the draft.

Not ideal in that we don't get full value for DJax but if he was beyond repair then so be it.

Now doing it this way, we'll get a pick that's not as good as it would have been.

We'll have almost 11M of extra cash and no where to spend it to improve this team this year because the market is closed.

It may float the boat of accountants, capologists and bonus plan participants but as for the talent on the field on Sundays, we're one piece short of what we could have had.

This all assumes that what DJax did was irreparable. I am giving them the benefit of the doubt and saying it was and assuming they had thick enough skin to deal with our prima donna WR.

If it isn't, then that's a new set of problems. But we'll assume it was.
Zero
They waited too long? It's March. A month without contact? When did Kelly first try calling him and how much slack did he give him? When did they start putting out feelers? No answers but valid questions. I don't think it's fair to assume the Eagles screwed the pooch.

And what if they bit their lips and decided to keep the talent and in doing that Brat10 pouts his way through another year like he did in 2011? Are they a better team with that?

It's really tough to draw absolutes on this, either side. Kelly seemed like he was communicating well with his players. 10 seemed like he believed he was above others. That's all I got.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Zero @ Mar 22 2014, 08:48 PM) *
They waited too long? It's March. A month without contact? When did Kelly first try calling him and how much slack did he give him? When did they start putting out feelers? No answers but valid questions. I don't think it's fair to assume the Eagles screwed the pooch.

And what if they bit their lips and decided to keep the talent and in doing that Brat10 pouts his way through another year like he did in 2011? Are they a better team with that?

It's really tough to draw absolutes on this, either side. Kelly seemed like he was communicating well with his players. 10 seemed like he believed he was above others. That's all I got.

If his transgression was so bad, chances are it was bad on February 28th. At that point, you sign your two FA wr's and then you finalize the issue with him while you can use his money to improve the team in FA.

If it wasn't so bad then, it probably isn't so bad now.

See my point?
Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Mar 22 2014, 09:02 PM) *
If his transgression was so bad, chances are it was bad on February 28th. At that point, you sign your two FA wr's and then you finalize the issue with him while you can use his money to improve the team in FA.

If it wasn't so bad then, it probably isn't so bad now.

See my point?


Your point?

You must have been one of those guys who called WIP back in the day to propose trades as if the other teams would give up have their rosters for a lb. of salami. What makes you think they weren't trying to trade him before? What makes you think they waited til now to do trade him now. From everything that I have read it sounds like they have been trying like hell but it just got this loud now. The thing you seem to forget is that the other team has to agree to a trade. In the NFL the chances are that every team in the league knows or knew the situation so the Eagles have little leverage. The only reason it is so loud now is that a reporter finally got the word and it spread like wildfire.

You also seem to forget that the draft has not taken place yet and he is a classic draft day trade chip.

Now get off the ledge.....lol
nephillymike
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Mar 22 2014, 10:19 PM) *
Your point?

You must have been one of those guys who called WIP back in the day to propose trades as if the other teams would give up have their rosters for a lb. of salami. What makes you think they weren't trying to trade him before? What makes you think they waited til now to do trade him now. From everything that I have read it sounds like they have been trying like hell but it just got this loud now. The thing you seem to forget is that the other team has to agree to a trade. In the NFL the chances are that every team in the league knows or knew the situation so the Eagles have little leverage. The only reason it is so loud now is that a reporter finally got the word and it spread like wildfire.

You also seem to forget that the draft has not taken place yet and he is a classic draft day trade chip.

Now get off the ledge.....lol

No.

The market for him, if properly approached, was better three weeks ago than now. Teams had more money to spend and contrary to what you say, had less smear to digest. The eagles could have said they were going with the two FA they resigned and the other teams would be less wise than they are today. Every one of the teams rumored to be interested now would have been interested then, with less suspicion and more cash.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Mar 22 2014, 10:56 PM) *
No.

The market for him, if properly approached, was better three weeks ago than now. Teams had more money to spend and contrary to what you say, had less smear to digest. The eagles could have said they were going with the two FA they resigned and the other teams would be less wise than they are today. Every one of the teams rumored to be interested now would have been interested then, with less suspicion and more cash.


This assumes that the Eagles did nothing to try to trade him then. His contract makes trading him a complicated issue regardless of timing. More to the point, any team will ask, much like you, why are the Eagles interested in trading him.......there is smoke and most teams will want to know where the fire is and rightly so.
nephillymike
More info from PFT:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/...-jackson-arent/
bounty101
Looks like he's going to be cut to me. A week ago, I thought 'this is all bullshit, he's going to be an eagle next year.' I can't see him in an Eagles uniform next year at this point. A major failure for the Eagles FO was to not deny the trade rumors, remaining silent instead. That seems to really stoke the fire. Now that everybody knows nobody will trade for him because of the contract, they almost have to cut him. If a team was interested enough, they would have traded for him already. It's a total mess and very frustrating to fans. Without Jackson, the offense will have a ceiling and the run game won't be nearly as effective. I see him being cut and the Jets signing him. They have the cap space. And the Eagles will remain mediocre at least for next year. What an embarrassment.

Anybody know if the Eagles would receive compensatory picks from the league for the release of Jackson? Or has that window come and gone?
bounty101
On a more positive note, maybe Maclin will finally get a chance to be a #1 receiver if he's back to old form. That would be good to see. He's got the talent, for sure. Then again maybe he's not the same as he was after tearing both ACL's.
Reality Fan
Why do so many think these events happen in a vacuum? Teams around the league most likely knew all the details about Jackson's issues with the Eagles. The NFL is like a coffee club....they gossip like crazy. More then likely they also know who is interested and who is not.

as odd as it is for the Eagles so ready to part ways with Jackson no one finds it odd that no one is stepping in to snatch him up? Offer a 4th or a 5th or a 6th.....has to be better than the eagles just cutting him, right? If he gets cut than he gets all the leverage doesn't he? Now all 31 other teams are in play and now it becomes a bidding war with a ton of up front money.........as diva WRs go he may cost as much or more. The real answer here will be in the contract he gets if cut and then signed.

I was not overly thrilled with kelly when they signed him and I was not a big Foles guy and I was wrong on both accounts. I don't understand how all those who loved Kelly suddenly think he is an idiot now(or do you think Kelly wants him and this is all organizational? a very silly assumption if you do). I think he knows exactly what he is doing....it sends a great message to the team and I don't think the impact will be as great as some do.
bounty101
To add to your good points, RF...

Calvin Johnson is slated to make between 5 and $6mil in 2014 and Andre Johnson is slated to make just over $6mil in 2014. Jackson's salary numbers have inflated to almost twice that, I'm assuming because the contract was heavily back-loaded. He's gone. Absolutely gone.

To be fair to Jackson, he didn't want more money necessarily, but he's out of guaranteed money. He said he wanted a new contract, meaning he needs more money now. From the looks of it, given the way he spends money, he's probably on the verge of being broke. Those kind of guys would worry me if I were Chip Kelly, I admit.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Mar 23 2014, 11:41 AM) *
Why do so many think these events happen in a vacuum? Teams around the league most likely knew all the details about Jackson's issues with the Eagles. The NFL is like a coffee club....they gossip like crazy. More then likely they also know who is interested and who is not.

as odd as it is for the Eagles so ready to part ways with Jackson no one finds it odd that no one is stepping in to snatch him up? Offer a 4th or a 5th or a 6th.....has to be better than the eagles just cutting him, right? If he gets cut than he gets all the leverage doesn't he? Now all 31 other teams are in play and now it becomes a bidding war with a ton of up front money.........as diva WRs go he may cost as much or more. The real answer here will be in the contract he gets if cut and then signed.

I was not overly thrilled with kelly when they signed him and I was not a big Foles guy and I was wrong on both accounts. I don't understand how all those who loved Kelly suddenly think he is an idiot now(or do you think Kelly wants him and this is all organizational? a very silly assumption if you do). I think he knows exactly what he is doing....it sends a great message to the team and I don't think the impact will be as great as some do.

I think you overestimate how much other teams know about the details of the situation.

The media who covers the team every day have been shooting blind at the dart board on this one too.

Guys were coming out strong saying there was nothing to it, now are convinced he's gone and maybe cut even!

I don't think anyone knows.

Who knows if they weren't offered a 4th, 5th or 6th pick? If it wasn't deemed to be enough, it's unlikely that either the Eagles or the offering team would announce it.

We're all like O'Doole in Miller's Crossing:

"I was just speculatin' about a hypothesis. I know I don't know nothin'."

We're all just specalatin' 'bout a hypothesis.

Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Mar 23 2014, 12:02 PM) *
I think you overestimate how much other teams know about the details of the situation.

The media who covers the team every day have been shooting blind at the dart board on this one too.

Guys were coming out strong saying there was nothing to it, now are convinced he's gone and maybe cut even!

I don't think anyone knows.

Who knows if they weren't offered a 4th, 5th or 6th pick? If it wasn't deemed to be enough, it's unlikely that either the Eagles or the offering team would announce it.

We're all like O'Doole in Miller's Crossing:

"I was just speculatin' about a hypothesis. I know I don't know nothin'."

We're all just specalatin' 'bout a hypothesis.


Of course on the other hand I think you look for dark clouds no matter what. You love to see the conspiracy everywhere. There is a huge difference between what reporters know and what they share with us......and there is a lot of what they share that is done as a favor to sources.

But I will humor you......by your facts.....they may have been offered something but wanted more AND they didn't think this would hit the fan and hurt their bargaining position when it came out? Do I have that correct? Tell me, did they expect Jackson's camp to go along with that? There are more holes in your theory that a colander. It is not that this is a great situation but I am not going to hang the Eagles over this.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Mar 23 2014, 12:29 PM) *
Of course on the other hand I think you look for dark clouds no matter what. You love to see the conspiracy everywhere. There is a huge difference between what reporters know and what they share with us......and there is a lot of what they share that is done as a favor to sources.

But I will humor you......by your facts.....they may have been offered something but wanted more AND they didn't think this would hit the fan and hurt their bargaining position when it came out? Do I have that correct? Tell me, did they expect Jackson's camp to go along with that? There are more holes in your theory that a colander. It is not that this is a great situation but I am not going to hang the Eagles over this.

There are holes in everybody's theory.

If the Eagles had put out word they were willing to trade him and were offered a pick they felt wasn't high enough, what in your opinion would the Eagles do in that situation?

I don't see how where we are disproves anything?

Dark clouds? Well yes, that's what the Axis of Evil does, it's in the charter.

So to give equal time to the "everything is rosey" point of view, give me the way this has had to go down to paint the management in the best light.




Zero
So Jackson is refusing to renegotiate his contract. On the one hand that makes sense for him. He's got a deal in place ... how much does he get if he's cut? If there's no payout if the Eagles cut him, then he's clean to make the best deal he can. Will that be better than reworking what he has now?

It seems that both ways would be about the same for him but if he refuses to renegotiate and is cut it'll screw the Eagles.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Zero @ Mar 23 2014, 03:11 PM) *
So Jackson is refusing to renegotiate his contract. On the one hand that makes sense for him. He's got a deal in place ... how much does he get if he's cut? If there's no payout if the Eagles cut him, then he's clean to make the best deal he can. Will that be better than reworking what he has now?

It seems that both ways would be about the same for him but if he refuses to renegotiate and is cut it'll screw the Eagles.

Well, if he does nothing, he gets 10.5, 9.75, 9.75 in base the next three years and a 250K roster bonus each year.

So, if he's looking for more guaranteed, he can rework it and get a SB up front with lower money on the back end and be cap friendly for suitors.

By saying he won't restructure, on one hand, he will limit the teams that can bid on him and on the other hand he can be sure he's involved in negotiations and restructure if it's a team he likes.

Still a confusing thing.

Chip is required to speak Wednesday at the owners meetings. Hopefully reporters will ask the tough questions.
Zero
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Mar 23 2014, 03:22 PM) *
Well, if he does nothing, he gets 10.5, 9.75, 9.75 in base the next three years and a 250K roster bonus each year.

Is all of that guaranteed?
bounty101
QUOTE (Zero @ Mar 23 2014, 05:30 PM) *
Is all of that guaranteed?


No, his guaranteed money is all gone. But the $30mil left on the deal is a lot of money, guaranteed or not. I really don't think he'll get that much from another team if the Eagles cut him. Like I said before, the best receivers in the league, Calvin and Andre Johnson are making half of that at the moment.
Zero
I agree. That's why I say that if he doesn't restructure he's probably screwing himself.
TGryn
As it happens, we got TO for a 5th and Brandon Whiting.

I think this either gets resolved with a trade in the next 72 hours during the NFL Annual Meetings, or we hang on to him until the May draft. There's no reason to get rid of him between now and then - don't need the cap room, and maybe the draft breaks a certain way and a team that is only lukewarm on him now gets more interested after the WRs they were interested in didn't fall to them.

The immediacy of these rumors heating up now is puzzling. DJax's money isn't guaranteed, and there isn't an impending roster bonus deadline for him AFAIK. Even if Kelly hates DJax's guts for whatever reason, there's no advantage to rushing a move right now. Up until they have to start paying him, it seems like you'd want him around even if its just insurance against Maclin's rehab going bad; if everything's great when camp breaks, then you can cut him with only a minimum of salary getting paid out. Only thing I can think of is they don't want him around for OTAs and minicamp, but that doesn't add up either. Its a mystery.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Zero @ Mar 23 2014, 05:57 PM) *
I agree. That's why I say that if he doesn't restructure he's probably screwing himself.

How about this restructured deal. He is due roughly 30M over 3 yrs.

Year......Salary....Sign Bonus.....Roster Bonus.....Cash....Cap..
2014.......3.0...........7.0...................1.0...................11.0.....6.3 ...
2015.......8.0............---...................1.0...................9.0......11.3..
2016.......9.0............---..................1.0...................10.0.....12.3

Jackson would get more guarantees but same payout. Make the roster payout day of start of free agency.

Zero
QUOTE (TGryn @ Mar 23 2014, 08:27 PM) *
The immediacy of these rumors heating up now is puzzling.

The only thing I can imagine is that Jackson is throwing a hissy fit. This is not the Eagles' M.O.
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