Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: We have free agency news.
Eagles Forum > Philadelphia Eagles Message Board > Philadelphia Eagles or Football Related Discussion
nephillymike
http://www.phillymag.com/birds247/2014/03/...s/#more-2272191

24/7 is saying 43DE/34Olb Johnson from Bengals was too rich for our blood, and we're out.

Also, more alarming is we're going after FS M. Mitchell from Panthers. Looks like we're going blue light special.

FWIW, check out the rankings of the FA. He was 93rd on one list, not top 50/100 on the others.

I guess my kidnapping of Byrd needs to end!

Rick
In all fairness, even though we'd like to get someone like Byrd, we don't need someone like him at FS. We just need a competent FS. We have other needs which we could use higher-end players.
make_it_rain
Mitchell was actually decent in coverage this year, but not so hot against the run.

Frankly, coverage skills is really all I care about looking for a FA safety. That's why I'm not crazy about Ward, but would love someone like Byrd or Whitner. Mitchell also had good numbers for pass rush as well, although obviously thats not a primary trait you look for with a safety.

*shrug* It's still an upgrade though.
Flying Dutchman
Unfortunately, Mitchell was the worst safety in terms of missed tackles. This is from Gowton at BGN:
"A concern with Mitchell is his tackling ability, or lack of it. According to Pro Football Focus, Mitchell missed a total of 18 tackles last season. That was good for the most in the NFL. He effectively missed a tackle for every 4.2 attempts, which was the worst rate in the league." Sounds like a few DBs we just got rid of. Do we really need another one?
canadianeagle
probably means nothing but Byrd just tweeted @ Patrick Chung

"Yo. you change your number yet"

Like I said, its probably nothing...but
nephillymike
QUOTE (Flying Dutchman @ Mar 8 2014, 09:57 PM) *
Unfortunately, Mitchell was the worst safety in terms of missed tackles. This is from Gowton at BGN:
"A concern with Mitchell is his tackling ability, or lack of it. According to Pro Football Focus, Mitchell missed a total of 18 tackles last season. That was good for the most in the NFL. He effectively missed a tackle for every 4.2 attempts, which was the worst rate in the league." Sounds like a few DBs we just got rid of. Do we really need another one?


I thought they tackled decently in the secondary when in the area. It was just we couldn't defend a pass for our lives at times.
nephillymike
The Eagles website has his story as a guy who struggled in Oakland.

Went on a one year show me deal in CAR.

Didn't win the starting job out of camp, but got it b/c of Achilles injury to the starter.

And played decently in coverage for McDermott all year and rushed the passer on a few blitzes.

Other sources like Dutch's, said he can't tackle worth a damn.

No thanks.

Quit playing around with these bargain basement deals Howie.

The fucking risk is not that we'll use too much salary cap.

The fucking risk is that we'll be in a game we need to win for the playoffs and have Chung Version 2.0 (Mitchell) back there instead of a blue chipper like Byrd.

Go out a get me Jairus Byrd dammit!!!

You've neglected the position since your asshole boss Banner let him go, you failed in your penny wise pound foolish approach to the secondary last year and we were stuck with a borderline #2 CB as our #1, a #4 CB as our #2, an injury bargain basement special who didn't even make the team at S, and two S that should have been bench players and $20+ million of cap space left over at the end of the year which did us no good in our bid to become a championship caliber team.

The days of winning the salary cap cup are over!!

Get it Done!!!
make_it_rain
QUOTE (canadianeagle @ Mar 8 2014, 10:25 PM) *
probably means nothing but Byrd just tweeted @ Patrick Chung

"Yo. you change your number yet"

Like I said, its probably nothing...but


They both went to Oregon. Pretty sure he was referring to changing his phone # ohmy.gif

I'm not crazy about the clearance sale approach its looking like they take to free agency, but it is what it is. As much as I would love to get Byrd I would go out on a limb and predict we end up with someone like Malcolm Jenkins, Mitchell, or *shiver* Darian Stewart
Zero
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Mar 8 2014, 10:52 PM) *
The fucking risk is not that we'll use too much salary cap.

This isn't about being cap king. The Eagles have some pretty demanding contracts coming in the next year or so. Foles, Kendricks, Cox, Maclin ... maybe McCoy again, maybe DJax again. I don't want to see Kendricks turn into a star this year and then go somewhere else because we don't have the money to pay him. So money is of concern and so is personality and how that big deal fits in the locker room and how it affects other negotiations.

I think Byrd would fit on most all counts from what I've heard. He's supposed to be a leader, respectful and quiet. I think his play would justify his money with other players.

I think they have the money for a Byrd deal but they also need money to spend on depth too. Diddy made a good reference to the Dream Team signings yesterday. The one guy from that class that went totally under the radar was Mathis who's now considered one of the better guards in the league. Dude was a good signing but we didn't look at it that way then.

Banner's gone and hopefully so is his bullshit. I'm not convinced that Howie has Dream Team whiplash or that he's of the same cap king mind set. I'm beginning to change my opinion of him and see him as a smart guy. If they get into a major bidding war for Byrd it may not be the best move for the team to win it.

Byrd is my first choice, but if they can't get that done and somebody like Jenkins fits all the other criteria, maybe adding him and another safety would be almost as good. Maybe that gives them more money to add an edge rusher and a DT so they can go into the draft truly looking at the BPA and not have to go for need at all or maybe they can move up and grab somebody like Barr because they don't have a long list of pressing needs.
Zero
Here's another look at the safety crop.
canadianeagle
QUOTE (Zero @ Mar 9 2014, 06:00 AM) *
This isn't about being cap king. The Eagles have some pretty demanding contracts coming in the next year or so. Foles, Kendricks, Cox, Maclin ... maybe McCoy again, maybe DJax again. I don't want to see Kendricks turn into a star this year and then go somewhere else because we don't have the money to pay him. So money is of concern and so is personality and how that big deal fits in the locker room and how it affects other negotiations.

I think Byrd would fit on most all counts from what I've heard. He's supposed to be a leader, respectful and quiet. I think his play would justify his money with other players.

I think they have the money for a Byrd deal but they also need money to spend on depth too. Diddy made a good reference to the Dream Team signings yesterday. The one guy from that class that went totally under the radar was Mathis who's now considered one of the better guards in the league. Dude was a good signing but we didn't look at it that way then.

Banner's gone and hopefully so is his bullshit. I'm not convinced that Howie has Dream Team whiplash or that he's of the same cap king mind set. I'm beginning to change my opinion of him and see him as a smart guy. If they get into a major bidding war for Byrd it may not be the best move for the team to win it.

Byrd is my first choice, but if they can't get that done and somebody like Jenkins fits all the other criteria, maybe adding him and another safety would be almost as good. Maybe that gives them more money to add an edge rusher and a DT so they can go into the draft truly looking at the BPA and not have to go for need at all or maybe they can move up and grab somebody like Barr because they don't have a long list of pressing needs.



They will also spend a good chunk signing their rookies
nephillymike
QUOTE (canadianeagle @ Mar 9 2014, 09:14 AM) *
They will also spend a good chunk signing their rookies



Not much for rookies really when you net it.

We need to set aside 4.644M for new rooks coming in, but get relief of almost 3M for the guys we'd have to cut to make room for the rookies.

Net of about 1.705M.

Not a concern.

http://overthecap.com/2014-rookie-pool-estimates.php
Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Mar 9 2014, 09:39 AM) *
Not much for rookies really when you net it.

We need to set aside 4.644M for new rooks coming in, but get relief of almost 3M for the guys we'd have to cut to make room for the rookies.

Net of about 1.705M.

Not a concern.

http://overthecap.com/2014-rookie-pool-estimates.php



Mikey....I would love a pro bowl player at every position but you can't break the bank on a safety with all the big contracts looming........particularly at QB. If Foles has half the season he had last year he is going to get a big nut and if he is close to last year he gets a huge nut. Blowing a big chunk on safety is going to hurt somewhere next year.....and that is assuming they part ways with jackson by then and his 9 mill salary.(which will be assumed by Maclin if he is back to par....Chip loves him and he will be a monster in this offense)
nephillymike
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Mar 9 2014, 03:24 PM) *
Mikey....I would love a pro bowl player at every position but you can't break the bank on a safety with all the big contracts looming........particularly at QB. If Foles has half the season he had last year he is going to get a big nut and if he is close to last year he gets a huge nut. Blowing a big chunk on safety is going to hurt somewhere next year.....and that is assuming they part ways with jackson by then and his 9 mill salary.(which will be assumed by Maclin if he is back to par....Chip loves him and he will be a monster in this offense)



Hey RF.

I hear you in a way, but to me the bigger free agency risk is ending up with two sub par S's on the field again in an important game at crunch time next year.

I think people fail to realize how tough it is to mess up the cap, especially when it is expecting to go up so much in the next few years.

We can't be sitting there in December and have $20M of cap room left over and have safeties like Chung and Allen on the field like we did this year.

THAT is bad cap management.

I'll give them some leeway last year because you could make an argument that we had so many changes to make wit new schemes etc, that we didn't know who we would be on defense etc.

Not this year. We were 10-6 and we were probably an upgrade at two DB spots away from winning a playoff game and then who knows.

Next year, we will need to be two games better just to get back to 10-6 given our tough schedule. The time is now.

Maybe we don't get Byrd. But we need to then use his money to get two other improvements so instead of getting Byrd plus two FA's, get another S and three other upgrades.

I don't know how much you know of the cap mechanics, but listening to sports talk shows, it's like people think we'll be broke if we get a top line player.

It is really difficult to f up the cap. Especially the way the Eagles watch it.

Think about it. As disastrous the dream team year was, it did not effect us on iota on our ability to get players in future years.

We just signed Peters and Kelce to extensions, Macklin and Cooper to new deals all for a "whopping" cost of about 4.5M cap dollars for this year. That's it!

Like I said above, our rookie class will net us a cost of about 1.7M of cap space, even less if the guys we cut to make room are over league minimum.

Without going into more boring details, the Eagles are in so much better shape than the $25M or so they say they have left because they don't have relatively much future cap dollars committed versus other teams.

Pro scouts do their job, Howie does his job, Chip will do his and we'll be fine.

Anything less and we're either dealing with the dream team nightmare of overpaid selfish dogs, or watching us trying to beat Drew Brees with $20M in our pocket and Chung and Allen in our defensive backfield.

Get it done Howie!!



Birdwatcher
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Mar 8 2014, 11:52 PM) *
The Eagles website has his story as a guy who struggled in Oakland.

Went on a one year show me deal in CAR.

Didn't win the starting job out of camp, but got it b/c of Achilles injury to the starter.

And played decently in coverage for McDermott all year and rushed the passer on a few blitzes.

Other sources like Dutch's, said he can't tackle worth a damn.

No thanks.

Quit playing around with these bargain basement deals Howie.

The fucking risk is not that we'll use too much salary cap.

The fucking risk is that we'll be in a game we need to win for the playoffs and have Chung Version 2.0 (Mitchell) back there instead of a blue chipper like Byrd.

Go out a get me Jairus Byrd dammit!!!

You've neglected the position since your asshole boss Banner let him go, you failed in your penny wise pound foolish approach to the secondary last year and we were stuck with a borderline #2 CB as our #1, a #4 CB as our #2, an injury bargain basement special who didn't even make the team at S, and two S that should have been bench players and $20+ million of cap space left over at the end of the year which did us no good in our bid to become a championship caliber team.

The days of winning the salary cap cup are over!!

Get it Done!!!


The only reason they have the cap space they do is that 17M was carried over from last year. You are looking only at 2014, but they have significant cap concerns next year, and if you are 'building' a team you can't ignore the future. They went balls to the wall with FAs in the 'dream team' year and it failed, especially at the highest tier. I don't think they want to risk making a FA the highest paid player on the team, it did not work well the last time. I rather get a couple of competent FA safeties, we basically have Wolff who is no sure thing at this point, than break the bank on one who wants 10M plus a year.
make_it_rain
Word on the street is Byrd is looking for $9m a year.

That would make him comfortably the highest paid safety in the league.

Let's look at the salaries of other elite safeties in the league:

Devin McCourty : $3.9 M (his deal is up in 2015) so this will go up.
Eric Berry: $8.4M
Eric Weddle: $7.5M
Earl Thomas: $4.6M (again, likely to go up)

On one hand, you expect the cap to go up, so with the cash to spend and the cap increasing, maybe this is just the way the league trends.

On the other hand, its paying a safety 9 million a season, when there are potentially a lot of high value contracts up for talks after next season.

He might get the 9 mil, but I don't think Howie is going to be the guy that gives it to him.

To be fair it's not like he's looking for Revis level (16M) money or even 10-11M like some had speculated. Frankly, I think what he's looking for is reasonable given his quality of play and the market. Still, you have to think long and hard before giving a 28 year old safety a deal at the 9M/season level, especially when you have others to pay.
TGryn
To me, the safety prize this year is the 49ers' SS Donte Whitner. Age 28, Pro Bowler the last two years, strong tackle #s. Not many INTs - averages 1-2 a year - which may be why he's not mentioned much, but he's really everything you'd want in a strong safety, since the position usually has more run responsibility and less ballhawk.
HOUSEoPAIN
Let's all be honest here people: if we could get 4 or 5 years of Brian Dawkins in his prime, would we be cool with spending $9m
a year? I'm pretty sure the answer would be yes from any Eagles fan. Byrd's stats in his first few years are similar, and there's
no reason to think he can't be the impact safety we've wanted and needed for years. Buffalo is a crappy team overall, with a
really crappy run defense - yet their pass defense was 4th in the league. He immediately makes our defense much better, and
has a proven track record.

Also, it's more than likely we could land him for less - he wants out of Buffalo, and the teams showing interest in him are St.
Louis, Miami, and Cleveland. So unless he just wants to party with LeBron, he could go to an attractive situation in Philly with
a young team on the rise, and presumably could accept a discount.

*It doesn't hurt that he has a relationship with Chip Kelly.
Birdman420
Go for Byrd, He sounds like exactly what we need.

How much does the team a top FA plays for influences his decision? I think philly is a very attractive place to play right now for any player looking to win it all.
bounty101
Haven't posted here in a while, but thought it was necessary to point out that the Eagles didn't lose to NO in the playoffs for lack of pass defense. The Saints ran the ball down the Eagles' throats and closed out the game with a 35 yard field goal. Also, Henery missed two FGs in that game, and the Eagles picked Brees twice. The Eagles need better tackling safeties, for sure, but I don't think they need to spend $9mil on Byrd. Also keep in mind that with this style of offense, the Eagles' pass defense will always be ranked somewhere in the 75th percentile statistically, because the Eagles are consistently ahead of the opposition, and the defense is on the field for about 35-40 minutes every game. So don't put too much stock in the pass defense statistics. I think the secondary as a whole played well last year, but not well enough. Like I said, tackle better and things will be different. I saw the safeties miss quite a few easy tackles in that Saints game. Mostly Chung... and he only played because Wolff was hurt.

That said, I'm hoping the Eagles move up 11 or 12 spots in this draft to grab the CB Gilbert, just because he's such a difference maker and you can never have too many corners. Probably won't happen though. The two corners Dennard and Roby are good, but they aren't good enough to be picked in the top 25, so I see the Eagles picking the Notre Dame NT Nix or a pass rusher as the most likely scenarios. There will definitely be two if not three safeties signed by the Eagles this March, I think. If they bat .333, they'll land one good starter. I also think there's a 95% percent chance they sign OLB Jason Worilds from Pittsburg. Anyway...

Peace
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (bounty101 @ Mar 10 2014, 05:14 PM) *
There will definitely be two if not three safeties signed by the Eagles this March, I think. If they bat .333,
they'll land one good starter. I also think there's a 95% percent chance they sign OLB Jason Worilds from Pittsburg. Anyway...


Sign an iffy safety and hope you bat .333?!

How about signing an All-Pro safety and bat 1.000?

Again, if you could get 4 or 5 years of Dawk in his prime for that dollar amount, would we even be having this discussion? I think that's clearly what Byrd would bring.
nephillymike
QUOTE (bounty101 @ Mar 10 2014, 04:14 PM) *
Haven't posted here in a while, but thought it was necessary to point out that the Eagles didn't lose to NO in the playoffs for lack of pass defense. The Saints ran the ball down the Eagles' throats and closed out the game with a 35 yard field goal. Also, Henery missed two FGs in that game, and the Eagles picked Brees twice. The Eagles need better tackling safeties, for sure, but I don't think they need to spend $9mil on Byrd. Also keep in mind that with this style of offense, the Eagles' pass defense will always be ranked somewhere in the 75th percentile statistically, because the Eagles are consistently ahead of the opposition, and the defense is on the field for about 35-40 minutes every game. So don't put too much stock in the pass defense statistics. I think the secondary as a whole played well last year, but not well enough. Like I said, tackle better and things will be different. I saw the safeties miss quite a few easy tackles in that Saints game. Mostly Chung... and he only played because Wolff was hurt.

That said, I'm hoping the Eagles move up 11 or 12 spots in this draft to grab the CB Gilbert, just because he's such a difference maker and you can never have too many corners. Probably won't happen though. The two corners Dennard and Roby are good, but they aren't good enough to be picked in the top 25, so I see the Eagles picking the Notre Dame NT Nix or a pass rusher as the most likely scenarios. There will definitely be two if not three safeties signed by the Eagles this March, I think. If they bat .333, they'll land one good starter. I also think there's a 95% percent chance they sign OLB Jason Worilds from Pittsburg. Anyway...

Peace

Our two starting CB's were like 53rd and 95th in the league in pass defense per PFF. If your dB's can cover, you can change coverages leaving another db in run support. Also, our dB's struggled in tackling in the NO game.

ting
bounty101
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Mar 10 2014, 08:26 PM) *
Our two starting CB's were like 53rd and 95th in the league in pass defense per PFF. If your dB's can cover, you can change coverages leaving another db in run support. Also, our dB's struggled in tackling in the NO game.

ting


What is PFF?
bounty101
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Mar 10 2014, 07:15 PM) *
Sign an iffy safety and hope you bat .333?!

How about signing an All-Pro safety and bat 1.000?

Again, if you could get 4 or 5 years of Dawk in his prime for that dollar amount, would we even be having this discussion? I think that's clearly what Byrd would bring.


That's been the track record... sign mid-level bargain FAs and hope for the best. Unfortunately they batted .000 on safeties this past offseason of the three they signed. Take a look at the Seahawks' free agent signings over the past 4 years... all mid-level acquisitions that they made work or got lucky with. Besides Earl Thomas, and the DE Bruce Irvin, there were no other 1st round picks or high-priced free agent acquisitions who started for that defense. I'm just saying I'm not optimistic about seeing Byrd in green. I would enjoy it very much, though.
TGryn
QUOTE (bounty101 @ Mar 10 2014, 04:35 PM) *
What is PFF?

https://www.profootballfocus.com/
They do a number of breakdowns of stats that are fairly obscure and unofficial, like tackling efficiency of DBs.
bounty101
QUOTE (TGryn @ Mar 10 2014, 08:44 PM) *
https://www.profootballfocus.com/
They do a number of breakdowns of stats that are fairly obscure and unofficial, like tackling efficiency of DBs.


Wow, I like it, thanks.
make_it_rain
here's a nice morning cock tease for ya

eagles talk to byrds agent

Me at 4pm today:

HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (make_it_rain @ Mar 11 2014, 07:51 AM) *
here's a nice morning cock tease for ya

eagles talk to byrds agent

Me at 4pm today:



laugh.gif

Where the hell do you find these gifs?
make_it_rain
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Mar 11 2014, 02:16 PM) *
laugh.gif

Where the hell do you find these gifs?


Too much time on my hands smile.gif I've built up a collection over the years.

Here's some GOOD FA news.

Chung is out.

Donnie Jones is in. 3 year deal.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (make_it_rain @ Mar 11 2014, 04:44 PM) *
Chung is out.


jumpclap.gif jumpclap.gif jumpclap.gif

jumpclap.gif jumpclap.gif

jumpclap.gif

jumpclap.gif jumpclap.gif

jumpclap.gif jumpclap.gif jumpclap.gif
make_it_rain
More news:

Eagles sign Malcolm Jenkins. 3 year deal

No surprise here.

So much for Byrd man sad.gif
Zero
QUOTE (make_it_rain @ Mar 11 2014, 04:06 PM) *
More news:

Eagles sign Malcolm Jenkins. 3 year deal

No surprise here.

So much for Byrd man sad.gif

Jenkins is a good sign, IMO. Now go get DWare!
nephillymike
Well,

He was the 3rd rated overall free agent safety behind Byrd and Ward, 2nd best FS. I thought as far as middle of the road guys he was OK.

He didn't get rave reviews from Jaws and a few others on the air apparently for poor tackling.

We'll see.

We've only just begun.............
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Mar 11 2014, 07:05 PM) *
He was the 3rd rated overall free agent safety behind Byrd and Ward


And Shaun Hill is the 3rd rated overall QB fee agent. We really wiffed on this one, especially if Byrd ends up signing with NO (he's down there meeting with them).
make_it_rain
I don't see how in the hell New Orleans can possibly sign Byrd, given they have the least amount of cap space already, and Brees alone takes up something ridiculous like 25M against the cap.

Like mathematically, is it even possible? Is New Orleans just not planning on signing any draft picks this year? Or just cutting everyone but Brees, Graham, and Byrd?
nephillymike
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Mar 11 2014, 06:40 PM) *
And Shaun Hill is the 3rd rated overall QB fee agent. We really wiffed on this one, especially if Byrd ends up signing with NO (he's down there meeting with them.

That would be the ultimate slap in the face.

Cap hell NO gives up Jenkins and signs Byrd, while cap rich PHI signs Jenkins.

That would be a p.r. nightmare.

All these chicken littles worried about mythical cap problems would be shaken to the core. The media lemmings would have to get a new script.

God, don't let that happen.
nephillymike
QUOTE (make_it_rain @ Mar 11 2014, 06:50 PM) *
I don't see how in the hell New Orleans can possibly sign Byrd, given they have the least amount of cap space already, and Brees alone takes up something ridiculous like 25M against the cap.

Like mathematically, is it even possible? Is New Orleans just not planning on signing any draft picks this year? Or just cutting everyone but Brees, Graham, and Byrd?

It's just math and kicking the can down the road. Just pick some guys with large cap #'s this year and convert salary to signing bonus in a reworked deal and a 10M cap hit becomes a 2M cap hit, freeing up 8M of cap space which buys you anyone you need by using a small salary, large signing bonus and reasonable term.
HOUSEoPAIN
To answer you and make-it-rain, I don't pretend to be an expert on contract rules and cap space and blah blah blah. All I know is that teams always seem to find money and
room when making a big splash. Also, NO would make no effort to meet with Byrd if they weren't serious about potentially signing him - after all, the other 31 teams know
a hell of a lot more than we do about whether or not it's mathematically possible, so if it was impossible why bother?
JeeQ
The Punt God is staying in Philly biggrin.gif
JeeQ
Also Jenkins may be less talented than Byrd, but he's still a 100x more talented than any other safety on our roster.
nephillymike
His tackling is a concern.

Our D had plenty of holes, but we did tackle well as a unit (except the Saints game). Maybe it was because all the practice we had after all the receptions we gave up!
bounty101
Anyone seen the numbers on the Jenkins contract? Schefter says 3 years, $16.25mil. (Bargain)

I like Malcolm Jenkins. His cover skills allow Billy Davis to do a whole lot more blitzing in man coverage without having to use zone blitzes. Hope he's not too much of a tackling liability. There's no doubt about his effort and leadership, though, which is a huge plus.

I'm interested to see how much more money it would have taken to sign Byrd. He's better in coverage and a better tackler. Maybe the Eagles were shy on Byrd because of his recurring foot problems??
nephillymike
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Mar 11 2014, 06:55 PM) *
That would be the ultimate slap in the face.

Cap hell NO gives up Jenkins and signs Byrd, while cap rich PHI signs Jenkins.

That would be a p.r. nightmare.

All these chicken littles worried about mythical cap problems would be shaken to the core. The media lemmings would have to get a new script.

God, don't let that happen.



I should have known God would favor the Saints.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Mar 11 2014, 10:11 PM) *
I should have known God would favor the Saints.


Howie's had it pretty good so far as the point man - now he'll start feeling the heat that every Philly GM feels once they fuck up. I can't wait to turn on WIP tomorrow morning.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2017 Invision Power Services, Inc.