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nephillymike
People who have been around a while know that there is no one I hated more in Philadelphia sports than Joe Banner.

For Lurie to have this guy as the face and voice of the organization for so many years is malpractice.

I always thought it was letting Dawkins go that was his ticket out of here. We may find out some day how that all went down.

I heard on WIP this week that Dawkins was told if he got on that plane to Denver, he would never get another offer from the team.

We'll find out that he was instrumental in Dawkins' departure.

He told us we were patently irresponsible for thinking that the Eagles ban on hoagies at the Linc was for reasons other than terrorism prevention.

He told us that if we didn't like the way the team did things, to go cheer for another team.

He was always so busy patting himself and the team on the back. They were better than the Steelers he said.

He sneered and snickered when someone had the unmitigated gall to suggest the Eaqles were cutting corners by the lack of water fountains in the upper bowl.

He sneered, he snickered, he had that smug, comfortable Ed Snider "we don't need to change" air about him.

And he was the face of the team. The voice of the team. Because Lurie was unwilling and Andy was incapable, we were stuck with him for all those years.

He rode a salary cap loophole in the CBA to fame and fortune, always patting himself on the back.

People were so enamored that they failed to realize the big trends he misread. Mistakes that cost this team shots at the Lombardi.

Joe, the definition of insanity is if anyone in the NFL ever hires your sorry ass for an executive job again.

And Joe, if you don't like it, you can go find another profession for employment.

See below. Seems like Joe's star personality helped with his boot out of Cleveland.

Cleveland has lost a Stooge this week.

http://www.nj.com/eagles/index.ssf/2014/02..._president.html

Phits
Are you insinuating that his good did not outweigh the bad?
nephillymike
QUOTE (Phits @ Feb 14 2014, 09:46 PM) *
Are you insinuating that his good did not outweigh the bad?

Yes.
Zero
Although I'm happy as an old man watching someone else shovel his driveway that Banner is no longer with the Eagles, it seems only fair to mention the good he did. He led the league in capology for years and may have invented the FA poison pill to sign players like Troy Vincent and Jon Runyan. He was extremely instrumental in exiting the Vet and building the Linc. He played a big part in hiring Andy Reid. He is a socially compassionate human who is very giving and active in charity work.

Lurie is to blame for misusing Banner. If you were coach of the Eagles would you play LeSean McCoy as a safety? Banner is not a public spokesman. He is not a successful negotiator in terms of leaving the table without significant collateral damage. He can be a valuable piece to an NFL franchise if he's kept away from people and microphones and providing he never has the power of final say. Joe Banner is largely responsible for the success the Eagles had in the Lurie era but Lurie's failure to rein him in and understand his weaknesses was what really created the problems.
TGryn
If I can paraphrase what Sam Lynch wrote here, Banner was the league's best (cap) accountant, and that served the Eagles well when the cap was tight. After the CBA was revised to increase everyone's available cap space, that talent became less valuable, and Banner started to become obsolete. His skills at negotiating to get NovaCare and the Linc built also were not needed after those two major projects were finished.

Basically Banner faced the problem a lot of workers do these days, the skills they had weren't as valuable as they were in the past, and he had to try and reinvent himself - in Banner's case, as a football personnel person. Unfortunately, his poor PR and person skills were a bad fit for that spot, and now he's unemployed. There's probably a place for him on another NFL team, one that needs help with non-football issues like getting a new stadium for example, but like Reid his time had run its course here.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (Zero @ Feb 15 2014, 06:19 AM) *
Although I'm happy as an old man watching someone else shovel his driveway that Banner is no longer with the Eagles, it seems only fair to mention the good he did. He led the league in capology for years and may have invented the FA poison pill to sign players like Troy Vincent and Jon Runyan. He was extremely instrumental in exiting the Vet and building the Linc. He played a big part in hiring Andy Reid. He is a socially compassionate human who is very giving and active in charity work.

Lurie is to blame for misusing Banner. If you were coach of the Eagles would you play LeSean McCoy as a safety? Banner is not a public spokesman. He is not a successful negotiator in terms of leaving the table without significant collateral damage. He can be a valuable piece to an NFL franchise if he's kept away from people and microphones and providing he never has the power of final say. Joe Banner is largely responsible for the success the Eagles had in the Lurie era but Lurie's failure to rein him in and understand his weaknesses was what really created the problems.


This. Banner did a lot of good, and if we never had to listen to him, or look at his face, we'd probably have wanted him to stay here. At minimum we wouldn't hate him.
nephillymike
QUOTE (TGryn @ Feb 15 2014, 09:08 AM) *
If I can paraphrase what Sam Lynch wrote here, Banner was the league's best (cap) accountant, and that served the Eagles well when the cap was tight. After the CBA was revised to increase everyone's available cap space, that talent became less valuable, and Banner started to become obsolete. His skills at negotiating to get NovaCare and the Linc built also were not needed after those two major projects were finished.

Basically Banner faced the problem a lot of workers do these days, the skills they had weren't as valuable as they were in the past, and he had to try and reinvent himself - in Banner's case, as a football personnel person. Unfortunately, his poor PR and person skills were a bad fit for that spot, and now he's unemployed. There's probably a place for him on another NFL team, one that needs help with non-football issues like getting a new stadium for example, but like Reid his time had run its course here.


I actually typed out a better reply yesterday but I left the page before posting!!

Great article TG, thanks for sharing. I did not see that before.

Joe Banner found a loophole in the CBA and used it to the teams benefit to roll money forward unused from one year to the future.

In the beginning, he was the first, the trendsetter, by setting up bogus bonus clauses that counted as used salary cap in year one and then when the bonus was not earned, the money would be added back to the cap at the beginning of the next year.

Where Joe hurt us was that he didn't see the forest for the trees at two critical times:

1. The article mentions the early cap maneuvers to get us Troy Vincent and Rickey Watters. Good signings for sure. It wasn't like we were signing a lot of free agents at the time, but those were two good ones.

What is doesn't tell you was that part of the reasoning for the tight spending and the rollover from year to year, was that the Eagles' plan was to be frugal early on, and when the new CBA was up for renewal, they would reap the benefits as they would have a bunch of cap to use to sign plenty of talent when the new deal came in lower than the big spenders like Dallas and San Fran needed it to. Thinking being, when it came in lower than what they thought it would be, the good teams would be in cap hell and we would pick up any talent we wanted.

Well, the forest was different. Fox got in the bidding game and the cap shot up by 20-25%, providing plenty of room for those teams that were busy winning championships to continue their way. We were caught with a bunch of cap and nothing to buy with it.

If you remember when this was, this was right when we had the back to back playoff years under Ray Bob. the lack of talent we had coming our way in those years hurt us and was a big reason of why we tanked in Rhodes later years.

Had the deal been flat like Banner expected, we would have been sitting pretty. That hurt big time.

2. The next time was in the early to mid 2000's. Banner continued to use the cap "haucking" technique and gave us plenty of cap room year after year. Problem was, he failed to realize that once other teams caught on, his competitive advantage would wither away. I guess he thought he was so brilliant that others wouldn't figure it out. Shit, I figured it out early on by reading the CBA, so I'm sure smart guys who got paid to know it would catch on.

when we had a bunch of cap and others were cap strapped, we would be one of the few who could bid high on the talent. Once others caught on, there were more buyers with cap money and fewer talent hitting the market b/c teams had money to resign the talent.

There were crucial years in the 2001 - 2005 period where we should have pounced on the talent that was out there. Not getting a real WR before TO (and we only got TO because he was a bargain and in hindsight a pain in the ass to his former team), not signing Trot and putting up with Simonwho and Kirkland really hurt us.

We had guys in their prime and the cap carry forward technique was not the way to go.

3. Having all that cap money around and not much new talent to buy with it, we ended up signing so many of our young guys to reasonable extensions when their performance didn't warrant it. They missed with so many of those in house deals. It didn't kill us cap-wise, but it left our team less talented than it could have been.

A team only has a few windows to win championships and when you misread the big picture, it cost you opportunities to win championships.


4. Then there is the Dawkins thing. (Per Ike Reese) When he got on a plane to meet with Denver, Banner told him that if he got on that plane, don't expect a counter offer from the Eagles.

He got on the plane, we didn't counter, he signed with Denver. They got an All Pro, we got Stacy Andrews day and a bunch of bums at that position since.

THAT, was Banner's big downfall. Reid couldn't defend it so he didn't give it any comment at all. Lurie was furious o he didn't give it any comment at all.

Banner could not comprehend what Dawkins meant to this team. To him, he was another $2M of cap space better used to sign some middle of the road drafted younger guy to an extension.

5. There were plenty of questions asked in the early years about whether the Eagles were cheap or were they spending the money etc.

On more than one occasion I heard him flat out lie and say the Eagles were spending the cap money when in fact they were just carrying it forward via the loophole. The media was ill prepared and didn't do their homework and you had guys like Eskin and Sherridan sucking up to the organization and others just didn't do the work to ask the real questions.

6. He insulted us as a fan base with his "cheer for another team" comment, and his "patently irresponsible" charges and his insistence that we were in fact as good as the Pittsburgh Steelers despite them winning the SB's a few years apart.

Sure, the fact that he was the face of the franchise is not his fault, but his misreading the big picture as detailed above certainly was.

Those are the reasons that I can't stand the guy.

One thing he deserves credit for, it the charity work the Eagles do in the community. What is the youth corps they set up? They do great work and he was a big part of that.

As far as the stadium, everyone does it. If you can't get a stadium built in this football ravaged city with a huge waiting list of season ticket holders in a league where it is impossible to lose money, then you are not worth your title.

Someone more skilled than he, may have even had water fountains installed on the upper bowl !! (Sorry cheap shot!)

In summary, I still can't stand the guy and I'm still dancing!! jumpclap.gif

devil03.gif









D Rock
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Feb 15 2014, 01:57 AM) *
Joe, the definition of insanity is if anyone in the NFL ever hires your sorry ass for an executive job again.

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
TGryn
Eh, I still don't see FA as being much more than a band-aid for temporarily fixing a hole in your roster, it doesn't work as a major avenue to build a championship team. Redskins were signing a ton of FAs during the same period, and it didn't get them anywhere. We also tried the same approach in 2011, and it got pretty much the whole organization fired within a couple of years. Flipside are the Giants, Steelers, and Patriots, who won their Lombardis by putting together a string of successful drafts without major FA acquisitions. Can't spend your way to the top.

If you want to read an odd article about Banner, here's a profile Marcus Hayes did of him in 1997. Very odd, because you'd never think Hayes had it in him to write such a positive profile of anyone, much less Banner.
http://articles.philly.com/1997-02-20/spor...ner-summer-camp
nephillymike
QUOTE (TGryn @ Feb 18 2014, 08:51 PM) *
Eh, I still don't see FA as being much more than a band-aid for temporarily fixing a hole in your roster, it doesn't work as a major avenue to build a championship team. Redskins were signing a ton of FAs during the same period, and it didn't get them anywhere. We also tried the same approach in 2011, and it got pretty much the whole organization fired within a couple of years. Flipside are the Giants, Steelers, and Patriots, who won their Lombardis by putting together a string of successful drafts without major FA acquisitions. Can't spend your way to the top.

If you want to read an odd article about Banner, here's a profile Marcus Hayes did of him in 1997. Very odd, because you'd never think Hayes had it in him to write such a positive profile of anyone, much less Banner.
http://articles.philly.com/1997-02-20/spor...ner-summer-camp

Good article.

We've delivered to their house a few years ago and our client made a point to say how much of a sweetheart Helaine was. She treated my guys well too. I told them they were lucky Joe wasn't there because he doesn't pay people over 30!

I hear you on FA. You would think it would be easier. I fear the dream team nightmare will scare us from being bigger players in FA. If a team does its homework, they can still improve the team thru FA.
TGryn
Another article on Banner. Reportedly he wanted both coordinators reporting to him, not to the head coach. blink.gif

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-footba...directly-to-him
QUOTE
Ousted Cleveland CEO Joe Banner -- who is transitioning out of his role in Cleveland after being not asked back along with GM Mike Lombardi -- had the new offensive and defensive coordinators reporting directly to him, CBS Sports NFL Insider Pat Kirwan reports.Kirwan spoke to a league source at the NFL combine in Indianapolis who told him Banner was a bit of a control freak and structured the coaching staff so that the new coordinators would answer directly to him.

That's atypical of an NFL team, to say the least. Generally speaking coordinators answer directly to the head coach, in this case recently hired Mike Pettine.

That would be, to use an understatement, "highly irregular"; the closest that comes to mind was how Al Davis ran the Raiders (or to a lesser degree, Jerry Jones with Dallas). I'd like to know how the h**l Pettine was supposed to maintain team discipline and get the respect of the team after they found out he didn't even have control over his coordinators. Sounds like Banner was trying to play fantasy football with a real NFL team, which makes his firing more understandable.
nephillymike
QUOTE (TGryn @ Feb 25 2014, 12:27 PM) *
Another article on Banner. Reportedly he wanted both coordinators reporting to him, not to the head coach. blink.gif

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-footba...directly-to-him

That would be, to use an understatement, "highly irregular"; the closest that comes to mind was how Al Davis ran the Raiders (or to a lesser degree, Jerry Jones with Dallas). I'd like to know how the h**l Pettine was supposed to maintain team discipline and get the respect of the team after they found out he didn't even have control over his coordinators. Sounds like Banner was trying to play fantasy football with a real NFL team, which makes his firing more understandable.

In the words of Leo Sayer,

You make me feel like dancing!!!
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