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nephillymike
Some interesting stats for each of these three young qb's for comparison:

Statistic, Foles, Wilson, Kaepernick
GS Career, 16,32,23
Pass Attempts, 317,407,416
Pass Yds, 2891, 3357,3197
Sacks, 28,44,32
SK yds,173,272,231
Pass TD, 27,26,21
Intercept, 2,9,8
Fumble Lost, 3,7,7
Rush Att, 57,96,92
Rush Yds, 221,539,524
Rush TDs, 3,1,4
Total Net All Purpose Yds, 2939,3624,3490
Total All Purpose Attempts, 402,547,540

Now some interesting tidbits:
The slow Foles has the lowest sack % at 8.1% vs. 9.8% vs. 8.6%
Foles, who gets little from his legs, still leads in all purpose yds per all purpose attempts:
Foles 7.31
Wilson 6.63
Kaepernick 6.46

So Foles gets about 385 more yards per season than Wilson and 470 more yards than Kaepernick in combined rushing and passing yards.

All of the above stats are those that the fleet of foot new style qb's were supposed to be better than the slow, traditional, boring,so yesterday, pocket qb. Not so. Fact vs. Fiction.

Foles total TD % (run and pass) was 7.46% vs. 4.93% Wilson, vs 4.63% Kaepernick. Most wouldn't know this HUGE margin.

And then there's that stat that the boring, take no chances, traditional pocket passer Foles excels in:
Total Turnover %:
Foles 1.24%, Wilson 2.93%, Kaepernick 2.78%.
Less than half the total turnover % than the super kids. More than twice the drives of Sea and Sf are ended by turnover than the Eagles.
My guess is that there are many SF fans who. Would love to have two of Kaepernick's turnovers back about now.

I will stay with Foles.
I've seen the other side and my grass is plenty green by comparison.

Phits
Where is this venom for mobile QB's coming from?

There is an important missing stat: 4th quarter comebacks and game-winning drives

Colin Kap : 5 fourth quarter comebacks, 6 game-winning drives
Rus. Wilson : 8 fourth quarter comebacks, 10 game-winning drives
Nick Foles : 2 fourth quarter comebacks, 2 game-winning drives



nephillymike
QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 20 2014, 10:24 PM) *
Where is this venom for mobile QB's coming from?

There is an important missing stat: 4th quarter comebacks and game-winning drives

Colin Kap : 5 fourth quarter comebacks, 6 game-winning drives
Rus. Wilson : 8 fourth quarter comebacks, 10 game-winning drives
Nick Foles : 2 fourth quarter comebacks, 2 game-winning drives

problem with comebacks and game winning drives is that you have to be behind to achieve them. When you don't play well early on, you get the opportunity to achieve them.

My venom comes fro hours of listening to local sports talk and hear the majority of the fans call in to long for a mobile qb to replace the guy with the highest passer rating after 16 games than anyone ever.

My "theory" is that mobile qb's rely on their legs at an early age and don't develop the patience to properly go thru all their reads. They jet the pocket a second early and miss out on potential big plays down field. I also think that with all the protection the rules give qb's in the pocket, it is relatively unsafe to venture out f it too often.

Time will tell. With all the mobile qb's in college, they will be the norm in the draft. Guus like McCarron will drop. We'll see.
Phits
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jan 20 2014, 11:13 PM) *
problem with comebacks and game winning drives is that you have to be behind to achieve them. When you don't play well early on, you get the opportunity to achieve them.

It also demonstrates the kind of fortitude that we want from our field general. His teammates suggest that he has that X factor. That is still the one thing I am waiting to see from Foles.

QUOTE
My venom comes fro hours of listening to local sports talk and hear the majority of the fans call in to long for a mobile qb to replace the guy with the highest passer rating after 16 games than anyone ever.


The problem with the passer rating system is that it looks sexy on paper, but the truth sometimes isn't really all that.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 20 2014, 11:26 PM) *
It also demonstrates the kind of fortitude that we want from our field general. His teammates suggest that he has that X factor. That is still the one thing I am waiting to see from Foles.



The problem with the passer rating system is that it looks sexy on paper, but the truth sometimes isn't really all that.



8-2 as a starter with a D that was learning a new system? That is not leader enough? Did you miss the part where he led the Eagles to a late 4th quarter lead against the Saints?
TGryn
I'm curious to see whether at some point the real story comes out about why Foles had such a miserable game against Dallas, because that's been the only real downturn to his progression. The official answers from Foles and Kelly were ambiguous; my suspicion is that Foles was hurt going into the game and got worse after a couple of hits, which affected his accuracy the rest of the game, but that's just going on various rumors. I can understand why they wouldn't want to publicize that during the season, and maybe they still don't want to come across as peddling excuses for poor play. Don't know.
Phits
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jan 21 2014, 12:49 AM) *
8-2 as a starter with a D that was learning a new system? That is not leader enough?

No, it isn't. And it shouldn't be for any of us. Foles had one hell of a season, but it was just a season. The truth will be told next season. We will know for sure whether he has "it" or if this season was the league getting caught off guard by Chip 'n Nick. There have been many one hit wonders in sports history. I don't believe this to be the case, but it wouldn't be a stretch if it was. Nick Foles' 2013 season came out of nowhere. The only stats we have to compare it to is a not so successful 6 game stretch the previous season. Next season when the honeymoon period is over should give us an indication as to whether Nick is our version of Josh Freeman or whether he is St Nick and helps deliver us to the promised land.



QUOTE
Did you miss the part where he led the Eagles to a late 4th quarter lead against the Saints?

Yes, I missed the part where we won the game. rolleyes.gif No need to twist my words. I never suggested that he isn't capable, i simply have not seen enough evidence.
Rick
QUOTE (TGryn @ Jan 21 2014, 07:41 AM) *
I'm curious to see whether at some point the real story comes out about why Foles had such a miserable game against Dallas, because that's been the only real downturn to his progression. The official answers from Foles and Kelly were ambiguous; my suspicion is that Foles was hurt going into the game and got worse after a couple of hits, which affected his accuracy the rest of the game, but that's just going on various rumors. I can understand why they wouldn't want to publicize that during the season, and maybe they still don't want to come across as peddling excuses for poor play. Don't know.

I think they've been about as open as they can be. He had a groin injury and also got smacked in the head pretty hard during the game. Not sure what other answer you're looking for?
D Rock
QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 21 2014, 03:24 AM) *
Where is this venom for mobile QB's coming from?

How bout 15 years of watching "mobile" quarterbacks in midnight green and having NOTHING to show for it?

QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 21 2014, 03:24 AM) *
There is an important missing stat: 4th quarter comebacks and game-winning drives

Colin Kap : 5 fourth quarter comebacks, 6 game-winning drives
Rus. Wilson : 8 fourth quarter comebacks, 10 game-winning drives
Nick Foles : 2 fourth quarter comebacks, 2 game-winning drives

Foles has put us in the lead a couple of times at least late in games where the D couldn't close it out. Also, you must see these numbers through the filter of the reality that he's started half as many games.

Finally, 4th quarter comebacks is an utterly numbnutz stat if ever there was one. It's no where NEAR an "important" stat. It defines "meaningless."

Are you going to penalize a QB for getting and maintaining an early lead? That's just dumb.
nephillymike
QUOTE (TGryn @ Jan 21 2014, 07:41 AM) *
I'm curious to see whether at some point the real story comes out about why Foles had such a miserable game against Dallas, because that's been the only real downturn to his progression. The official answers from Foles and Kelly were ambiguous; my suspicion is that Foles was hurt going into the game and got worse after a couple of hits, which affected his accuracy the rest of the game, but that's just going on various rumors. I can understand why they wouldn't want to publicize that during the season, and maybe they still don't want to come across as peddling excuses for poor play. Don't know.


Me too.

That was so out of character and guys were wide open that he was looking right at and didn't throw it.

I always thought he was concussed earlier on the one hit in the 1st qtr. and either he hid it from the staff, or that the medical staff could get in trouble for letting him play.

The only other one is the unthinkable throw the game for his favorite team growing up.

That performance was soooo bad that bad thoughts crept in my mind.
TGryn
QUOTE (Rick @ Jan 21 2014, 11:17 AM) *
I think they've been about as open as they can be. He had a groin injury and also got smacked in the head pretty hard during the game. Not sure what other answer you're looking for?

The source for the groin injury rumor was Jay Glazer; as far as I know neither Foles nor Kelly has admitted it was anything more than minor. Per http://articles.philly.com/2013-10-23/spor...es-michael-vick
QUOTE
Kelly said Foles suffered no other injury in Sunday's 17-3 loss to the Dallas Cowboys besides a cleat bruise to a leg. When asked about a groin injury Foles suffered last week, Kelly said the quarterback was not affected. So there was no underlying injury behind Foles' lackluster performance against Dallas, when he completed just 11 of 29 passes for 80 yards.
and http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap200000026...oach-kelly-says
QUOTE
Eagles coach Chip Kelly told reporters Monday that Foles sustained a concussion in Sunday's loss to the Dallas Cowboys and now finds himself mired in the league's protocol for head injuries.


Basically, Kelly said the groin injury wasn't a factor in Foles' play, and all the bad stuff happened before the concussion which knocked him out of the game. If he wasn't seriously hurt, it leaves a lingering question whether we can be confident it won't just randomly happen again.

http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2013/12...adelphia-eagles
nephillymike
QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 20 2014, 10:24 PM) *
Where is this venom for mobile QB's coming from?

There is an important missing stat: 4th quarter comebacks and game-winning drives

Colin Kap : 5 fourth quarter comebacks, 6 game-winning drives
Rus. Wilson : 8 fourth quarter comebacks, 10 game-winning drives
Nick Foles : 2 fourth quarter comebacks, 2 game-winning drives


Manning only had two 4Qcb and two GWD this year.

Why? He had the misfortune of playing so well early in the games that he didn't need to come from behind.
D Rock
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jan 21 2014, 11:00 PM) *
Manning only had two 4Qcb and two GWD this year.

Why? He had the misfortune of playing so well early in the games that he didn't need to come from behind.

Yeah. He sux.

laugh.gif
Phits
QUOTE (D Rock @ Jan 21 2014, 02:58 PM) *
How bout 15 years of watching "mobile" quarterbacks in midnight green and having NOTHING to show for it?

Using that logic, shouldn't the same anomosity be shown for an All-Pro hard hitting safety?

QUOTE
Are you going to penalize a QB for getting and maintaining an early lead?

Who is penalizing anybody? I would like to see him in the position and how he responds.
Phits
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jan 21 2014, 06:00 PM) *
Manning only had two 4Qcb and two GWD this year.

Why? He had the misfortune of playing so well early in the games that he didn't need to come from behind.

And for his career he has: 40 fourth quarter comebacks, 51 game-winning drives
Zero
QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 21 2014, 10:51 AM) *
Foles had one hell of a season, but it was just a season. The truth will be told next season. We will know for sure whether he has "it" or if this season was the league getting caught off guard by Chip 'n Nick. There have been many one hit wonders in sports history. I don't believe this to be the case, but it wouldn't be a stretch if it was. Nick Foles' 2013 season came out of nowhere. The only stats we have to compare it to is a not so successful 6 game stretch the previous season. Next season when the honeymoon period is over should give us an indication as to whether Nick is our version of Josh Freeman or whether he is St Nick and helps deliver us to the promised land.

Yup. We need to see how he does once the DCs around the NFL have had months to study him.
Flying Dutchman
QUOTE (Zero @ Jan 21 2014, 08:32 PM) *
Yup. We need to see how he does once the DCs around the NFL have had months to study him.

Z, these DCs today don't need an off-season to study a QB. They are pros who can slice and dice videos that are prepared for them
for them by their assistants. The NFL is the ultimate info sport where teams are dedicated to finding the weak link in their opponents.
The biggest change now will be how much Foles improves over his performance this year. It may not be statistically superlative because
he is already playing at a superlative level. But functionally there are many things he can improve.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 21 2014, 10:51 AM) *
No, it isn't. And it shouldn't be for any of us. Foles had one hell of a season, but it was just a season. The truth will be told next season. We will know for sure whether he has "it" or if this season was the league getting caught off guard by Chip 'n Nick. There have been many one hit wonders in sports history. I don't believe this to be the case, but it wouldn't be a stretch if it was. Nick Foles' 2013 season came out of nowhere. The only stats we have to compare it to is a not so successful 6 game stretch the previous season. Next season when the honeymoon period is over should give us an indication as to whether Nick is our version of Josh Freeman or whether he is St Nick and helps deliver us to the promised land.




Yes, I missed the part where we won the game. rolleyes.gif No need to twist my words. I never suggested that he isn't capable, i simply have not seen enough evidence.


He led them to a TD and the lead on his last possession.......not sure how you are missing that but you cant force water into a stone.

Had the defense held then he had a 4th quarter comeback....see how that works....
Phits
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jan 21 2014, 09:44 PM) *
He led them to a TD and the lead on his last possession.......not sure how you are missing that but you cant force water into a stone.

Had the defense held then he had a 4th quarter comeback....see how that works....

That may be satisfactory to you, I am also concerned with the end result ... see how that works ...

I am confident that he can do it, I just want to see it happen.
Rick
QUOTE (TGryn @ Jan 21 2014, 05:56 PM) *
The source for the groin injury rumor was Jay Glazer; as far as I know neither Foles nor Kelly has admitted it was anything more than minor. Per http://articles.philly.com/2013-10-23/spor...es-michael-vick
and http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap200000026...oach-kelly-says


Basically, Kelly said the groin injury wasn't a factor in Foles' play, and all the bad stuff happened before the concussion which knocked him out of the game. If he wasn't seriously hurt, it leaves a lingering question whether we can be confident it won't just randomly happen again.

http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2013/12...adelphia-eagles

OMG! Can we get over that game already!!??

First, he seems like the kind of kid who won't use an excuse for poor performance. So, maybe he WAS injured/concussed/etc and won't admit it.

More importantly. Who friggin' cares!!?? He had a bad game... A (emphasis on A) bad game. Brady had a shitty game the other day. Missing wide-open receivers, etc. Nobody is making a huge stink about it and whether he'll ever be a good QB because of ONE bad game.

Get over it already! Sheesh!
Zero
QUOTE (Flying Dutchman @ Jan 21 2014, 09:28 PM) *
Z, these DCs today don't need an off-season to study a QB. They are pros who can slice and dice videos that are prepared for them
for them by their assistants. The NFL is the ultimate info sport where teams are dedicated to finding the weak link in their opponents.
The biggest change now will be how much Foles improves over his performance this year. It may not be statistically superlative because
he is already playing at a superlative level. But functionally there are many things he can improve.
I get it, Dutch. But for half of their opponents they have only one week to review and prepare for tendencies, etc. I'm guessing that months is more revealing than days.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Rick @ Jan 22 2014, 06:34 AM) *
More importantly. Who friggin' cares!!?? He had a bad game... A (emphasis on A) bad game. Brady had a shitty game the other day. Missing wide-open receivers, etc. Nobody is making a huge stink about it and whether he'll ever be a good QB because of ONE bad game.

Get over it already! Sheesh!

Brady has a track record to lean on, which Foles is yet to achieve at this point. They aren't and shouldn't be perceived the same way.

Brady also received fair criticism for his performance.

The reality is that the Patriots, led by Belicheck and Brady, are still yet to win a SB since spygate. It's been 9 years since their last. This despite having the "best coach" and arguably the best QB in football for all but one of them.

You would think it would silence the critics who think we should have won "multiple" SB's with Andy and Donovan. But those people are largely idiots. Winning SB's is hard.

Rick
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 22 2014, 09:45 AM) *
Brady has a track record to lean on, which Foles is yet to achieve at this point. They aren't and shouldn't be perceived the same way.

The point is, at this time, who cares? He had a lot of strong games after that one. It's in the past. Move on already.
koolaidluke
Wilson I'll give you he is a good QB.

But can we please stop with the Kaepernick stuff? The guy just isn't very good. Media loves this guy but I have heard enough.


Fuck Kaepernick. Fucking fraud.

Wheeljack
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jan 21 2014, 04:45 PM) *
Me too.

That was so out of character and guys were wide open that he was looking right at and didn't throw it.

I always thought he was concussed earlier on the one hit in the 1st qtr. and either he hid it from the staff, or that the medical staff could get in trouble for letting him play.

The only other one is the unthinkable throw the game for his favorite team growing up.

That performance was soooo bad that bad thoughts crept in my mind.


yeah. I don't know what the heck happened with it, but it's the kind of performance that's hard to forget. good thing he didn't repeat it, but ... I'd really like to know WTF was going on. worst performance at home from an Eagle QB since the Hoying years at least
Wheeljack
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 22 2014, 09:45 AM) *
The reality is that the Patriots, led by Belicheck and Brady, are still yet to win a SB since spygate. It's been 9 years since their last. This despite having the "best coach" and arguably the best QB in football for all but one of them.


in addition to 0 rings since Spygate:
- 0 rings since Adam Vinatieri left the building
- 0 rings since that defense ceased to be top 2
- 0 rings since becoming a "better QB"

so basically they're the Eagles w/cameras?
Phits
QUOTE (Wheeljack @ Jan 23 2014, 11:31 AM) *
in addition to 0 rings since Spygate:
- 0 rings since Adam Vinatieri left the building
- 0 rings since that defense ceased to be top 2
- 0 rings since becoming a "better QB"

so basically they're the Eagles w/cameras?

Hate on them if you want, but the proof is in their record. Brady/Belichick have gone to 8 AFCCG's and 5 SB (3 wins). They had a single sub .500 season since Belichick took over, and that was his first season. Since then, they have had 1 season where there win total did not eclipse double digits (10+). We could only hope for that level of success with Chip 'n Nick. Thankfully, our future looks bright.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 23 2014, 11:05 AM) *
Hate on them if you want, but the proof is in their record. Brady/Belichick have gone to 8 AFCCG's and 5 SB (3 wins). They had a single sub .500 season since Belichick took over, and that was his first season. Since then, they have had 1 season where there win total did not eclipse double digits (10+). We could only hope for that level of success with Chip 'n Nick. Thankfully, our future looks bright.

I don't think it's a matter of hating on them. I think it's pointing out that even with the best of circumstances (great coach, hall of fame QB in his prime) they have won zero Superbowls in nearly a decade.

Their success is impressive, but since they got caught cheating, they haven't won a SB. According to the standards that have been placed on our team, their accomplishments since Spygate have been unacceptable. And people should be calling for Belichick's head.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (Wheeljack @ Jan 23 2014, 11:31 AM) *
in addition to 0 rings since Spygate:
- 0 rings since Adam Vinatieri left the building
- 0 rings since that defense ceased to be top 2
- 0 rings since becoming a "better QB"

so basically they're the Eagles w/cameras?


I hate it when people make me defend Belichick and Brady.

They lose Welker, Hernandez, and Gronk for 80% of the season, and they're still a couple ball bounces away from beating the
juggernaut Broncos to go to the Super Bowl? They're doing something right over there.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 23 2014, 12:17 PM) *
I don't think it's a matter of hating on them. I think it's pointing out that even with the best of circumstances (great coach, hall of fame QB in his prime) they have won zero Superbowls in nearly a decade.

Their success is impressive, but since they got caught cheating, they haven't won a SB. According to the standards that have been placed on our team, their accomplishments since Spygate have been unacceptable. And people should be calling for Belichick's head.

Not true, at least for me. Had we won 1 SB or even gone to another SB game, I would look at AR's tenure very differently. We had the weaker conference for most of AR's time here and were unable to capitalize on this advantage.

Belichick has 5 SB appearances and, arguably, had his finest season as a HC this year. Had Brady not been so "un-Brady" like they would be going to another SB.

Since our (lone) SB appearance AR had a 66-61-1 record. Since Spygate NE is 110-34 plus a perfect regular season record 2 more SB appearances and 5 AFCCG appearances.

No comparison really, and that's no slight to AR. The Pats have one of the all time great coaches and QB's....and I really dislike them.
Wheeljack
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Jan 23 2014, 12:17 PM) *
I hate it when people make me defend Belichick and Brady.

They lose Welker, Hernandez, and Gronk for 80% of the season, and they're still a couple ball bounces away from beating the
juggernaut Broncos to go to the Super Bowl? They're doing something right over there.


It was a joke... but yeah. The Pats do have excuses, the thing I -do- hate on regarding the Pats is how much people slobber over their assistants, coaches etc... when they SUCK seperated from Belichick and Brady. If I see Josh McDaniels's name in another head coaching search...
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (Wheeljack @ Jan 23 2014, 12:51 PM) *
If I see Josh McDaniels's name in another head coaching search...


If he gets another gig as HC, then you know Tebow will once again be a starting QB wink.gif
Rick
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 23 2014, 12:17 PM) *
I don't think it's a matter of hating on them. I think it's pointing out that even with the best of circumstances (great coach, hall of fame QB in his prime) they have won zero Superbowls in nearly a decade.

Their success is impressive, but since they got caught cheating, they haven't won a SB. According to the standards that have been placed on our team, their accomplishments since Spygate have been unacceptable. And people should be calling for Belichick's head.

I know it's funny to laugh about them, "cheating," but, really, let's stop acting like that was such a big deal. I mean, to your first point here, maybe it's just REALLY hard to win a SB even under the best of circumstances.
TGryn
It should be noted that videotaping like the Patriots were doing wasn't a violation until 2006, after they'd won three of four Super Bowls in 2001-2004. Every team had the right to do it, so if the Pats got an advantage from it in their championship years, it would be because they were just better at using it to advantage than other teams.

They totally deserved the penalties meted out for continuing the practice after it was prohibited, but it shouldn't mar what they accomplished before that.
Rick
QUOTE (TGryn @ Jan 24 2014, 07:12 PM) *
It should be noted that videotaping like the Patriots were doing wasn't a violation until 2006, after they'd won three of four Super Bowls in 2001-2004. Every team had the right to do it, so if the Pats got an advantage from it in their championship years, it would be because they were just better at using it to advantage than other teams.

They totally deserved the penalties meted out for continuing the practice after it was prohibited, but it shouldn't mar what they accomplished before that.

I hadn't known that. So, in essence, they didn't cheat to win the bulk of their SBs.

Now, I hate the Pats just like the next guy but, I hate excuses. Love 'am or hate 'em they were/are a very good team with a very good coach.
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