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nephillymike
OK, We've had our week bye.

Got a way for a little bit but had the ear tuned in to sports talk at work most of the time.

And here's what I've heard.

What does Nick Foles need to do to make (you the fan) give up your pursuit of a young, mobile QB in the draft?

Among the answers:

- He's got to go 5-0 and get the Eagles into the playoffs and win a playoff game
- He's got to get the team into the playoffs and win a playoff game
- He's got to win 4 of 5 and get them into the playoffs
- Nothing, because you can look at almost everyone who has won the SB recently and they have been selected in the top 32 picks of the draft. he doesn't have the pedigree


Those four versions of answers made up about 90% of those voiced.

Meanwhile, the variety of first round "pedigree" dream team of QB's have continued taking turns in less than stellar performances that for some reason, don't dull the shine.

He just came off the best statistical month of football EVER for a QB.
E-V-E-R!

Yet, he doesn't run a 4.8 40. His arm isn't the lazer Vick has. His draft status isn't that of a Luck, RGIII, Newton. His status isn't of any of the numerous other first and 2nd round QB picks who couldn't hold his jock.


I swear after listening to this for two weeks, if the guy throws one INT or has one game with a sub 95 passer rating, or his team loses a game regardless of how he's played, he's toast. That will turn to the draft in a NY minute.

Sad.

Sometimes this town deserves the dreck we get.

This is the latest episode.

Good for Chip who said in response to Arians' assertion that the read option is a fad and not an NFL offense, I don't agree. The read option isn't an offense. It's a play.

Good for him.

.
Zero
Chip has demonstrated a knack for avoiding controversy while bitch slapping people. jumpclap.gif
Jax
Thanks Mikey, I get tired of stupid stuff like this. People act like it is a system. The Eagles don't run the play as much as other teams.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Jax @ Nov 30 2013, 09:42 AM) *
Thanks Mikey, I get tired of stupid stuff like this. People act like it is a system. The Eagles don't run the play as much as other teams.



AND, for those teams who ran the read option last year, they are running it a lot less this year.

Maybe there is a place for humble, slow of foot, extremely accurate, quick decision making QB's who go thru all the reads and take care of the football. Maybe thoise traits don't become extinct after Brady and Manning HOF careers end.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE
Sometimes this town deserves the dreck we get.


No shit. Bobby Hoying got more benefit of the doubt than Foles does. He HAS to go 5-0!?!?!?!? How about, he's earned the rest of the year and unless he throws 0 TDs and 20 picks, next year he's good too? I was never a Foles fan coming into this year, but he's earned the job.


QUOTE
The read option isn't an offense. It's a play.


It's also used as more of a play action pass with a twist. I like Chip's response.


samaroo
Chip's version of the read option is pretty much the WCO with a run in the beginning. The WCO has multiple routes that you take depending on what the D gives you. Chip's does the same thing, just with a run option thrown in.

He's not the only guy doing it, or the first. I don't get all the hoopla about it.
make_it_rain
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Nov 30 2013, 09:50 AM) *
OK, We've had our week bye.

Got a way for a little bit but had the ear tuned in to sports talk at work most of the time.

And here's what I've heard.

What does Nick Foles need to do to make (you the fan) give up your pursuit of a young, mobile QB in the draft?

I swear after listening to this for two weeks, if the guy throws one INT or has one game with a sub 95 passer rating, or his team loses a game regardless of how he's played, he's toast. That will turn to the draft in a NY minute.

Sad.

Sometimes this town deserves the dreck we get.


It is pretty god damn annoying. What's even more annoying, is that ANY talk of going after a QB in the draft is completely POINTLESS at this point.

Whether you're sold on Foles or not, we're past the point of no return now. The team's won six games already, and you have to figure they should get anywhere from 8-10 wins on the season total. Sorry guys, this team is priced out of drafting any of the top QBs in the first round.

Forget about Bridgewater, Mariota, etc at the top of the QB draft projections. The eagles will likely be drafting somewhere from 15-22ish, they would have to give up an exorbitant amount of picks to move up to be within range of those guys. Washington gave up THREE GOD DAMN first rounders and a second rounder to get griffin, and that was just going from #6 to #2. Granted, that draft was much different from this one, as it had two can't miss prospects, but still. Do you think Jacksonville or Minnesota are going to be keen on parting with that pick when they have pretty obvious needs at QB too? We'd essentially be mortgaging the future of the franchise, to take a chance on a guy like Mariota, who isn't a sure thing like Luck, because Foles didn't live up to some arbitrary standard set by douchebags like Misanelli?

There's a decent chance you have some interesting QBs left on the board by the time the Eagles pick is around....someone like Manziel, Hundley, Boyd, Carr. Still, do you just overlook someone like Foles who has proven they can play, or at least shown a lot of promise, to throw a first round pick on one of these guys, and just hope to throw them to the fire? How can you just discount the promise Foles has shown, AND disregard all of the other major needs on the team that could be addressed with a 1st/2nd round pick, simply because the team <didn't win a playoff game/win 10 games/foles didn't throw for 300yds/3tds a game/etc>.

I don't really get why there needs to be this arbitrary benchmark established to determine if Foles is/is not the guy. He's the guy, at least for now, so why is it to much to ask to just enjoy the ride?

mcnabbulous
We barely even run it with Foles. They are almost always designed runs to the backs and very situationally Foles has the option to keep it just to keep the defense honest and pick up short yardage.
samaroo
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 1 2013, 01:51 PM) *
We barely even run it with Foles. They are almost always designed runs to the backs and very situationally Foles has the option to keep it just to keep the defense honest and pick up short yardage.


Agreed.
D Rock
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Nov 30 2013, 04:04 PM) *
Maybe there is a place for humble, slow of foot, extremely accurate, quick decision making QB's who go thru all the reads and take care of the football. Maybe thoise traits don't become extinct after Brady and Manning HOF careers end.

Of course they have a place. They DEFINE quarterbacking (maybe not the slow of foot). Lazer arms and super athletes are EASY. They're represented very well in the trash heap of over hyped, over drafted non quarterbacks. The latest of which (hello geno) got benched today after completing 4 balls (if u count the ints) in 3 quarters of work.

The difference between the great QBs and the meh QBs is between the ears. That's why they're so hard to identify.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (D Rock @ Dec 2 2013, 03:03 AM) *
The difference between the great QBs and the meh QBs is between the ears. That's why they're so hard to identify.

I think it's less about being intelligent and more about learning the position.

I had always believed that the mobile QB was the future and going to dominate the position moving forward, but after another decade of watching pocket passers win SB's, I'm firmly over that mindset.

Mobile guys simply never learn the correct way to play the position, because they're athletically capable of getting out of trouble on their own. Watching Foles routinely target his 3rd and 4th reads is something you just don't see from the mobile guys. Not because they're too stupid to do so, but because they never have had to do so and aren't disciplined enough.

More than anything, playing QB is about coaching and experience. The most impressive thing about Foles is how quickly he has acclimated to the NFL game. He's still seeing defensive scenarios he has never encountered before.

As long as you can move within the pocket, you're capable of succeeding in the NFL. Foles' biggest problem thus far is occasionally thinking he's a bit more athletic than he is. There are times when he needs to get rid of the ball rather than trying to sidestep some defenders. His flaws are pretty minimal thus far, though. Which is pretty damn exciting for a second year guy.
D Rock
I get what you're saying and agree in part about having the mobility as an escape route can retard the learning process.

However, that only covers the experiential part of the equation. It doesn't look at that which I was referring to which is the innate aspect all great quarterbacks share.

Great quarterbacks process information and make decisions on time. The rest do not. That is most certainly related to overall intelligence. You can teach a guy what cover 2 looks like vs. man/free or cover 3. That's easy. But all the cliches about defenses "getting tape on a guy" come in to play eventually and they scheme and disguise their way into confusing presnap looks. At that point, a QB is left alone on an island and will sink or swim based almost solely on his ability to process what he's seeing with his key reads and making the right decision at the right time.

You can't dismiss the relationship between that ability and general intelligence.

Phits
Mobile QB's can still be the future. NFL Coaches and GM's still haven't acclimated themselves to it, because the 'traditional' QB already has a blueprint. A mobile QB calls for a different type of system (blocking schemes, agile lineman etc..). Much easier to coordinate 5 big guys to create a pocket and hold it without fear of the QB scrambling.

The big problem with mobile QB's has always been the same, scrambling is an instinct that has to be merged with the ability of a traditional pocket passer. In today's NFL Cam Newton is the ideal 'mobile' QB; He follows through with his progressions and can burn you with his legs not to mention that he has a cannon for an arm and is a big boy who can take a hit. I wouldn't be surprised if Carolina was a front runner, this off season, for Maclin's services.

QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 2 2013, 11:59 AM) *
I think it's less about being intelligent and more about learning the position.

I had always believed that the mobile QB was the future and going to dominate the position moving forward, but after another decade of watching pocket passers win SB's, I'm firmly over that mindset.

Mobile guys simply never learn the correct way to play the position, because they're athletically capable of getting out of trouble on their own. Watching Foles routinely target his 3rd and 4th reads is something you just don't see from the mobile guys. Not because they're too stupid to do so, but because they never have had to do so and aren't disciplined enough.

More than anything, playing QB is about coaching and experience. The most impressive thing about Foles is how quickly he has acclimated to the NFL game. He's still seeing defensive scenarios he has never encountered before.

As long as you can move within the pocket, you're capable of succeeding in the NFL. Foles' biggest problem thus far is occasionally thinking he's a bit more athletic than he is. There are times when he needs to get rid of the ball rather than trying to sidestep some defenders. His flaws are pretty minimal thus far, though. Which is pretty damn exciting for a second year guy.

mcnabbulous
QUOTE (D Rock @ Dec 2 2013, 12:25 PM) *
Great quarterbacks process information and make decisions on time.

You can't dismiss the relationship between that ability and general intelligence.

I just don't know if this is related to general intelligence or not. The things that make guys great athletes are a mystery to me. Guys like Larry Bird, Magic Johnson and Wayne Gretzky had this ability to see the entire court/rink at the same time. I don't know if that makes them smart or not. They were obviously incredible athletes.

I kind of think the same holds true with the great QB's. Their ability to process what is happening on the field rapidly may simply be the way their brain is wired. I'm not saying it's true, but you could likely put these guys in other situations which require quick decision making and they would fold.

Barry Sanders was able to find a hole or make a cut that seems unnatural. Shady often does the same. Does that make these guys smart? The decisions they are making are split second.

It could be an intelligence thing, but I think you'd see a lot more smart guys in the NFL if that were the case. Not too many ivy leaguers make it.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 2 2013, 12:35 PM) *
I just don't know if this is related to general intelligence or not. The things that make guys great athletes are a mystery to me. Guys like Larry Bird, Magic Johnson and Wayne Gretzky had this ability to see the entire court/rink at the same time. I don't know if that makes them smart or not. They were obviously incredible athletes.

I kind of think the same holds true with the great QB's. Their ability to process what is happening on the field rapidly may simply be the way their brain is wired. I'm not saying it's true, but you could likely put these guys in other situations which require quick decision making and they would fold.

Barry Sanders was able to find a hole or make a cut that seems unnatural. Shady often does the same. Does that make these guys smart? The decisions they are making are split second.

It could be an intelligence thing, but I think you'd see a lot more smart guys in the NFL if that were the case. Not too many ivy leaguers make it.

It depends on how you are measuring intelligence. I suppose that's why the phrase "Football IQ" exists. The ability to determine the best approach to a situation, that requires split second timing, can be equated to a level of intelligence that isn't measurable. Keep in mind that the amount of information that has to be absorbed and translated is considered to be a trait of intelligence.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Dec 2 2013, 12:28 PM) *
In today's NFL Cam Newton is the ideal 'mobile' QB; He follows through with his progressions and can burn you with his legs not to mention that he has a cannon for an arm and is a big boy who can take a hit. I wouldn't be surprised if Carolina was a front runner, this off season, for Maclin's services.

I can't truly say I have formed an opinion on Cam yet. Haven't watched him enough. I don't know if he runs through his progressions the way the great pocket passers do.

I can say, from watching Kaepernick, he is awful when he gets off his first read. He's young, but at this time, he's not a very good QB in that regard.
iggleslover49
Wow you guys can get REALLY philosophical can't you? At this point I have to believe that Foles is the future right now. He's playing great football, but make no mistake. These dual-threat QB's ARE the wave of the future. What's going on in the head of a mobile QB all comes down to coaching and development, just like pocket passers. The problem is, college coaches normally play their kids to their strengths differently than the NFL. College coaches might spend less time trying to develop that mobile QB to be a threat out of the pocket and just call plays that use his athleticism more often than a pocket passer. Not saying all coaches do, but I think a good bit of them do let their mobile QB's freelance a little bit.

With that being said, Vick will be replaced with one of these young mobile QB's. Just not in the first round. There are so much of them to choose we'll be able to scoop one up with the second. It wouldn't surprise if Johnny Football slips, and you still Braxton Miller out there will probably be there in the 3rd.

I anticipate Foles being the starter, Barkley being the back, and that QB THAT WE ARE GOING TO DRAFT being in that 3rd spot. With another QB competition that Foles will no doubt start off in the lead. Foles is playing GREAT football right now, but how many of you really think the organization isn't going to try to find that dual threat guy that merges good decision making and accuracy with mobility? Foles has a lot to do with the success of the system, but how much of the system and coaching play into Foles success? Howie Roseman and company will probably try to find these things out.
D Rock
QUOTE (Phits @ Dec 2 2013, 05:42 PM) *
It depends on how you are measuring intelligence. I suppose that's why the phrase "Football IQ" exists. The ability to determine the best approach to a situation, that requires split second timing, can be equated to a level of intelligence that isn't measurable. Keep in mind that the amount of information that has to be absorbed and translated is considered to be a trait of intelligence.

Agreed. So too, there is a reason they time a proctored test. If you're given all day to mull a question over, vs. being asked to demonstrate immediate knowledge of a specific area of study . . . it's a different animal all together.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (iggleslover49 @ Dec 2 2013, 03:16 PM) *
The problem is, college coaches normally play their kids to their strengths differently that the NFL. College coaches might spend less time trying to develop that mobile QB to be a threat out of the pocket and just call plays that use his athleticism more often that a pocket passer.

Exactly - so they don't develop as QB's. And their athleticism is countered in the NFL by more athletic and, more imporantly, larger competition.

I would argue that college is the most crucial period in a QB's development. That is when they must learn the position. I agree that the college coaches are using them differently and they're doing them a disservice. If I were a QB with hopes of playing in the NFL, I would never play for a guy like Urban Meyer.

Instead, I'd play for a guy like O'Brien who will teach me how to properly play the position. And rest assured, O'Brien is developing a future superstar in Hackenberg.

Guys like Tebow and Braxton Miller may have more college "success" but they're setup for failure in the pros.

QUOTE
Braxton Miller out there will probably be there in the 3rd.

Miller will never play QB in the NFL.

Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 2 2013, 02:28 PM) *
Guys like Tebow and Braxton Miller may have more college "success" but they're setup for failure in the pros.

That's primarily because we have grown to expect QB's to contribute immediately. Grooming a QB to become a starter, not a "star", is a lost art in today's NFL. I wonder if Rodgers would have become the QB he is if he didn't have all of that bench time behind a HoF'er?

Also noteworthy is that the expectations of the college to NFL transition are much higher than they should be. If more innovator's like Chip can bridge the gap between college and the pros we will see the standard of QB play evolve.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Dec 2 2013, 03:42 PM) *
That's primarily because we have grown to expect QB's to contribute immediately. Grooming a QB to become a starter, not a "star", is a lost art in today's NFL. I wonder if Rodgers would have become the QB he is if he didn't have all of that bench time behind a HoF'er?

Not me, buddy. I think most guys, especially those that come from "college offenses" should be sitting on the bench for at least a year.

Take a look at Alex Smith. That guy is considered to be one of the "smartest" QB's in the NFL. Based on both his collegiate academic success, wonderlic results, etc. He simply received piss poor QB coaching at the college level and never was required to learn how to play the position. His rookie season was the worst in recent memory. Much worse than Geno's current monstrosity in NY.

Smith took about 4 seasons until he was ready. We shouldn't be shocked when that is the case.
D Rock
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 2 2013, 07:28 PM) *
Guys like Tebow and Braxton Miller may have more college "success" but they're setup for failure in the pros.

Insert Geno Smith into that statement too. tongue.gif
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (make_it_rain @ Nov 30 2013, 08:10 PM) *
We'd essentially be mortgaging the future of the franchise, to take a chance on a guy like Mariota, who isn't a sure thing like Luck, because Foles didn't live up to some arbitrary standard set by douchebags like Misanelli?


Truth. Remember, this is the same asshole who insulted David Akers and called him a girl after that game against the Raiders where he kicked a game winning field goal with half a leg, because he collapsed in pain afterwards. I only wish that was a face-to-face interview. His only redeeming quality is that he hates Eskin. Anyone who says Foles MUST go 4-0 and win a playoff game to secure the job is a hater dipshit.

P.S. I would love to hear that phone call interview, when Akers called into Missanelli's show, anyone know where it is?
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (D Rock @ Dec 2 2013, 03:20 PM) *
Insert Geno Smith into that statement too. tongue.gif

It's quite possible, but you would have said the same about Alex Smith. And you have said the same about Cam Newton.

I said all along that Geno shouldn't be starting from day 1. He's not yet received proper coaching and the Jets have an awful offense. He was doomed for failure this year.
D Rock
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 2 2013, 08:24 PM) *
It's quite possible, but you would have said the same about Alex Smith. And you have said the same about Cam Newton.

I said all along that Geno shouldn't be starting from day 1. He's not yet received proper coaching and the Jets have an awful offense. He was doomed for failure this year.

Wait a second. You just said that college is the most crucial preparing ground for QBs. Geno was ill prepared after college. Sitting him isn't going to turn him into a QB. I'm of the mind that pretty much nothing will. But sitting him certainly wont.

How you can say he was worthy of the #4 overall pick in one breath than admit he's ill prepared to play NFL QB in the other boggles my feeble mind.

mcnabbulous
QUOTE (D Rock @ Dec 2 2013, 03:27 PM) *
Wait a second. You just said that college is the most crucial preparing ground for QBs. Geno was ill prepared after college. Sitting him isn't going to turn him into a QB. I'm of the mind that pretty much nothing will. But sitting him certainly wont.

The difference being that Geno is a throw first QB. He's not looking to run.

Geno didn't run a pro style offense and hasn't seen pro style defenses, but I think he can be taught how to play the position more than a guy that's trained first instinct is to run away from pressure.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (D Rock @ Dec 2 2013, 03:27 PM) *
How you can say he was worthy of the #4 overall pick in one breath than admit he's ill prepared to play NFL QB in the other boggles my feeble mind.

I've simply said that Geno warranted a first round pick based on his physical capabilities and body of work. He was proven to be a more polished passer than Donovan coming out of college, and given the appropriate coaching, he offers the skillset to be a very good NFL QB.

I don't think you need to be NFL ready to warrant a high first round pick. Few QB's in NFL history were.

Some guys can overcome that. Most can't. But I think Geno's natural instincts as a passer make him a viable prospect. The people who are writing him off because of this season are disregarding the history of the position based on a few fringe cases from the past few years.

It's not that the other guys can't learn how to play the position. It's that their scrambling has taught them bad habits that they almost never overcome. Geno doesn't have those, IMO.
D Rock
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 2 2013, 08:29 PM) *
The difference being that Geno is a throw first QB. He's not looking to run.

Huh?
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 2 2013, 08:29 PM) *
Geno didn't run a pro style offense and hasn't seen pro style defenses, but I think he can be taught how to play the position more than a guy that's trained first instinct is to run away from pressure.

And worth a first round pick.
D Rock
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 2 2013, 08:34 PM) *
I've simply said that Geno warranted a first round pick based on his physical capabilities and body of work. He was proven to be a more polished passer than Donovan coming out of college, and given the appropriate coaching, he offers the skillset to be a very good NFL QB.

You know I'm no Supa5 booster, but comparing a guy who hasn't thrown a touchdown since October to McNabb is a reach at best.

And he's got Morningwood there to coach him up too.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (D Rock @ Dec 3 2013, 12:40 AM) *
Huh?

There is nothing to be confused about. Look at the numbers from college (and this year.) They are comparable to a guy like Matt Ryan as far as willingness to run.
Geno is athletic, but he's not a runner.

QUOTE
You know I'm no Supa5 booster, but comparing a guy who hasn't thrown a touchdown since October to McNabb is a reach at best.

McNabb was an awful passer as a rookie. If he had played a full season, his numbers would have been even more atrocious. He was correctly eased into the starting role.

Geno is being asked to carry the Jets offense. It's a disaster.
QUOTE
And he's got Morningwood there to coach him up too.
The next rookie QB that Marty successfully develops will be the first.


Jax
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 2 2013, 12:35 PM) *
I just don't know if this is related to general intelligence or not. The things that make guys great athletes are a mystery to me. Guys like Larry Bird, Magic Johnson and Wayne Gretzky had this ability to see the entire court/rink at the same time. I don't know if that makes them smart or not. They were obviously incredible athletes.

I kind of think the same holds true with the great QB's. Their ability to process what is happening on the field rapidly may simply be the way their brain is wired. I'm not saying it's true, but you could likely put these guys in other situations which require quick decision making and they would fold.

Barry Sanders was able to find a hole or make a cut that seems unnatural. Shady often does the same. Does that make these guys smart? The decisions they are making are split second.

It could be an intelligence thing, but I think you'd see a lot more smart guys in the NFL if that were the case. Not too many ivy leaguers make it.

Larry Bird? Great HOF player no doubt. Depends on your definition of great athlete.
nephillymike
and the latest this AM from G. Cobb:

Rob Ellis to G. Cobb "Are you sold on Foles yet?

G. Cobb - "I'm getting there".

"If he continues to do what he's doing for the rest of the season, then I'm in."



Do you mean if he breaks the TD's without an INT streak, continues with the highest passer rating of all time and his team doesn't lose, you are in?

Way to go G. Why not just come out and say you just don't like him. Not setting the bar high now are you??

Same shit, different day.
Zero
Actually, I get it. It's not that I expect "more" from Foles, it's that the rise from virtual unknown to flirting-with-greatness has been a shock to most everyone. We've seen other players accomplish startling feats early and then ... POOF, just disappear.
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