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Wheeljack
How long do you think it'll take to fix it?

I don't know if it's better to wait until Billy Davis can find people that fit the scheme... or that he just sucks.

I think (absent most at defensive back positions) there is talent, just being misused.

Birdman420
Despite our poor pass defense our corners actually look pretty good. I like what fletcher,boykin and willams can do and I see them all improving in this system.

I think safeties are our biggest problem in our secondary and if we weren't going into next years draft looking for a franchise qb then I would hope the eagles would find the most talented safeties we could get in round 1 and 2.

Linebackers are ok, I think Ryans is over rated and we could probably do better with a replacement. Kendricks shows promise and I'd like to keep him for his speed and ability to penetrate the O-line-He needs to shore up his tackling though.
Barwin has not shown me anything yet and he is expendable to me. Cole seems to be doing as good as one should at LB being that he's dealing with a new position.

D-line, Not much to say because they don't seem to be getting to the QB very often. I like the idea of hanging onto vinny and fletcher because they are young with a lot of ability and upside.

Wheeljack
agreed. I think Vinny is underused and being put out of position to match.

as for Barwin I think he's OK. Expendable, possibly. But not "Babin" bad. glad the Wide 9 fad is gone.

It's been a long time (it feels) since you could say, "linebackers are OK" with the Eagles. and I hope that the Ryans overrating ended after last season. He's an upgrade over any MLB since Trotter but nothing to get too excited out. Every now and then he makes a play.
D Rock
Wanna talk overrated, let's talk Mykel Kendricks. He's a tremendous athlete, but other than the foreskinz game . . . he's been TERRIBLE. Reminds me of Ernie Simms who also had all the athleticism in the world but sucked at linebacker. And to think Vontae David was taken a few spots later and that guy is a phuqing stud. Thanks again Andy for the dog shit defensive drafts over the past decade.
CT_Eagle
It is tough to figure out this defense. You have a new coordinator switching to the 3-4. Any defense is going to struggle for a while during that transition. Hopefully the Dallas game was a sign of things to come. I can live with that defense and look forward to what I hope will be Chip and Davis adding playmakers to that side of the ball. There is still 9 more games to see what they have to build on.
TGryn
Our best young DL talent - Cox, Graham, and Curry - are all to greater or lesser degrees not good fits for the 3-4. It looks like Sopoaga's gas tank ran out during the offseason, because he's getting pushed around at NT. On the flip side it looks like Thornton's a much better fit than he was in the Wide 9.
Rick
QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Oct 22 2013, 03:00 PM) *
It is tough to figure out this defense. You have a new coordinator switching to the 3-4. Any defense is going to struggle for a while during that transition. Hopefully the Dallas game was a sign of things to come. I can live with that defense and look forward to what I hope will be Chip and Davis adding playmakers to that side of the ball. There is still 9 more games to see what they have to build on.

You can't keep making excuses about a new coach/new scheme/etc. I mean, other than the other day, they've been bad on an epic scale. Other teams have done just what we've done (big changes) and weren't this bad.

I'm still not overly-happy with this defense. The corners can't seem to cover and, do we even have a safety on the field? We seem to be doing alright against the run but, man, is our pass defense bad. No pressure up front and no coverage in the back.

This defense needs a LOT of help.
Rick
QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Oct 22 2013, 03:00 PM) *
It is tough to figure out this defense. You have a new coordinator switching to the 3-4. Any defense is going to struggle for a while during that transition. Hopefully the Dallas game was a sign of things to come. I can live with that defense and look forward to what I hope will be Chip and Davis adding playmakers to that side of the ball. There is still 9 more games to see what they have to build on.

You can't keep making excuses about a new coach/new scheme/etc. I mean, other than the other day, they've been bad on an epic scale. Other teams have done just what we've done (big changes) and weren't this bad.

I'm still not overly-happy with this defense. The corners can't seem to cover and, do we even have a safety on the field? We seem to be doing alright against the run but, man, is our pass defense bad. No pressure up front and no coverage in the back.

This defense needs a LOT of help.
Rick
QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Oct 22 2013, 03:00 PM) *
It is tough to figure out this defense. You have a new coordinator switching to the 3-4. Any defense is going to struggle for a while during that transition. Hopefully the Dallas game was a sign of things to come. I can live with that defense and look forward to what I hope will be Chip and Davis adding playmakers to that side of the ball. There is still 9 more games to see what they have to build on.

You can't keep making excuses about a new coach/new scheme/etc. I mean, other than the other day, they've been bad on an epic scale. Other teams have done just what we've done (big changes) and weren't this bad.

I'm still not overly-happy with this defense. The corners can't seem to cover and, do we even have a safety on the field? We seem to be doing alright against the run but, man, is our pass defense bad. No pressure up front and no coverage in the back.

This defense needs a LOT of help.
CT_Eagle
QUOTE (Rick @ Oct 22 2013, 09:40 PM) *
You can't keep making excuses about a new coach/new scheme/etc. I mean, other than the other day, they've been bad on an epic scale. Other teams have done just what we've done (big changes) and weren't this bad.

I'm still not overly-happy with this defense. The corners can't seem to cover and, do we even have a safety on the field? We seem to be doing alright against the run but, man, is our pass defense bad. No pressure up front and no coverage in the back.

This defense needs a LOT of help.



Keep making excuses? They have played 7 games with a new coach, new scheme and 2 new CBs. 7 games is not a lot of games when it comes to a change of this magnitude. Not to mention the fact that their best game was their most recent. Just what you would expect from a team that is improving. Their most recent game was also against one of the top scoring offenses in the league on a day that our offense could not stay on the field. Maybe the Dallas game is an aberration and the defense truly sucks. But then again, the Dallas game could have been the first glimpse of the defense adapting to the new coordinator, scheme and personnel.

I disagree with your assessment of the CBs, at least Fletcher. I think he has done a pretty good job over the past 3 weeks.

I am not sold on this defense either. In fact I am still skeptical about it. There are definite holes on this D. Either way, I will not make up mind about the defense as a whole until I see this play out over the rest of the season.
Rick
QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Oct 22 2013, 05:53 PM) *
Keep making excuses? They have played 7 games with a new coach, new scheme and 2 new CBs. 7 games is not a lot of games when it comes to a change of this magnitude. Not to mention the fact that their best game was their most recent. Just what you would expect from a team that is improving. Their most recent game was also against one of the top scoring offenses in the league on a day that our offense could not stay on the field. Maybe the Dallas game is an aberration and the defense truly sucks. But then again, the Dallas game could have been the first glimpse of the defense adapting to the new coordinator, scheme and personnel.

I disagree with your assessment of the CBs, at least Fletcher. I think he has done a pretty good job over the past 3 weeks.

I am not sold on this defense either. In fact I am still skeptical about it. There are definite holes on this D. Either way, I will not make up mind about the defense as a whole until I see this play out over the rest of the season.

Yes, making excuses. Again, other teams have made switches like this and haven't been this bad. There is more to this than a new coach and a new system. We just don't have very good players on defense. I'm a bit skeptical about the DC as well because of how bad we are.

At what point do we stop making the excuse it's all new? I mean, they had a whole preseason and (now) about half the season. At what point do they start playing better? It all comes back to the lack of talent we have on defense. This problem has reached epic proportions.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Rick @ Oct 23 2013, 04:20 PM) *
Yes, making excuses. Again, other teams have made switches like this and haven't been this bad. There is more to this than a new coach and a new system. We just don't have very good players on defense. I'm a bit skeptical about the DC as well because of how bad we are.

At what point do we stop making the excuse it's all new? I mean, they had a whole preseason and (now) about half the season. At what point do they start playing better? It all comes back to the lack of talent we have on defense. This problem has reached epic proportions.

They are playing better. Look at the ppg allowed over the past 3 weeks. It's better than it was the first 4 weeks.

They're not going to be a shutdown defense, but they just held a pretty potent Cowboys offense to 17 points despite not getting any help from their offense.

Rick
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 23 2013, 05:22 PM) *
They are playing better. Look at the ppg allowed over the past 3 weeks. It's better than it was the first 4 weeks.

They're not going to be a shutdown defense, but they just held a pretty potent Cowboys offense to 17 points despite not getting any help from their offense.

They did play better this week, however, I wouldn't say they played better against the Giants. If Eli had't have gone Eli, we give up a LOT more points. Guys were running around open all day.

I will say our guys are a little closer to the open receivers. So I guess that's a move in the right direction.

Bottom line, anyone rationalizing and trying to say this defense is anything other than bad is delusional (at best). This defense is horrible.
CT_Eagle
QUOTE (Rick @ Oct 23 2013, 10:20 PM) *
Yes, making excuses. Again, other teams have made switches like this and haven't been this bad. There is more to this than a new coach and a new system. We just don't have very good players on defense. I'm a bit skeptical about the DC as well because of how bad we are.

At what point do we stop making the excuse it's all new? I mean, they had a whole preseason and (now) about half the season. At what point do they start playing better? It all comes back to the lack of talent we have on defense. This problem has reached epic proportions.


Let's lay it out there then. What will this defense have to do in order for them to show improvement in your eyes? They just played their best game of the year vs. one of the best offenses in the NFL. They held Dallas to 17 points. That is a damn fine job by the defense and it is definitely an improvement over how they played in the beginning of the season. Of course it remains to be seen if the improvement is genuine or not but I have no problem saying they did a great job this past weekend.

Just for reference, a defense that holds opponents to a 17 ppg average is usually good enough to be amongst the best defenses in the league.
Zero
QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 22 2013, 02:56 PM) *
Thanks again Andy for the dog shit defensive drafts over the past decade.

Listening to WIP yesterday there was a short commentary (forget who) by CBS. Essentially he said he was sick of all the Andy Reid praise even though he personally like the man as a coach. He said that Reid took over a solid, dramatically under achieving roster in KC yet left the Eagles with a horrible talent vacuum that will take years to fix: his personnel guidance ruined the Eagles.
HobbEs
They say it takes 2 to 3 years to make a complete transition from a 4-3 to a 3-4. Maybe the process can speed up with a few good f/a signings but at this point I'd say we're doing as well as expected (if not better).

The two most immediate needs on defense are 1) NT and 2) Safety. Yeah, as putrid as our safeties have been I think a good NT is more important over the long run.
CT_Eagle
QUOTE (HobbEs @ Oct 24 2013, 01:18 PM) *
The two most immediate needs on defense are 1) NT and 2) Safety. Yeah, as putrid as our safeties have been I think a good NT is more important over the long run.


I tend to agree with this, especially the NT. I have always been a big proponent of building the lines first and then moving away from the ball.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Zero @ Oct 24 2013, 06:13 AM) *
Listening to WIP yesterday there was a short commentary (forget who) by CBS. Essentially he said he was sick of all the Andy Reid praise even though he personally like the man as a coach. He said that Reid took over a solid, dramatically under achieving roster in KC yet left the Eagles with a horrible talent vacuum that will take years to fix: his personnel guidance ruined the Eagles.

Andy the coach needs separated from Andy the GM. It's really that simple.

The larger problem is that we were a franchise that had that organizational hierarchy. It simply doesn't work. Coaching an NFL team is one of the most demanding jobs in sports. How that person is expected to simultaneously scout and evaluate college talent and players from around the league is beyond me.

I can't name another successful franchise doing it. The Patriots have that setup and their offense is about as void of talent as our defense, with the exception of Brady, who most definitely wasn't more than a fluke pick and not necessarily made by Belicheck.
Rick
QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Oct 23 2013, 08:12 PM) *
Let's lay it out there then. What will this defense have to do in order for them to show improvement in your eyes? They just played their best game of the year vs. one of the best offenses in the NFL. They held Dallas to 17 points. That is a damn fine job by the defense and it is definitely an improvement over how they played in the beginning of the season. Of course it remains to be seen if the improvement is genuine or not but I have no problem saying they did a great job this past weekend.

Just for reference, a defense that holds opponents to a 17 ppg average is usually good enough to be amongst the best defenses in the league.

First of all, they have to prove they can get off the field (regularly) in 3rd and long situations--not for 1 game (even though they had a few issues with that against Dallas)--but regularly. One game (out of 7) does not show they are a good defense.

And I agree, if we held people to 17 points (regularly), I'd be much more happy with this defense.

Did they play better this week? Absolutely. But, again, to believe this is a good defense is ridiculous. We have a bunch of guys who may not even make rosters on many other teams much less start. We still cover horribly. We still have no safety. We still have questionable (at times) LB play (although it seems much improved vs. last season).

This defense needs wholesale changes and that's going to take time. But, again, there have been other defenses in similar situations who haven't been as bad as we've been (not counting the Dallas game).
Rick
QUOTE (HobbEs @ Oct 24 2013, 09:18 AM) *
They say it takes 2 to 3 years to make a complete transition from a 4-3 to a 3-4. Maybe the process can speed up with a few good f/a signings but at this point I'd say we're doing as well as expected (if not better).

The two most immediate needs on defense are 1) NT and 2) Safety. Yeah, as putrid as our safeties have been I think a good NT is more important over the long run.

We expected them to be this bad? Really? I knew we had issues but I never expected them to be THIS bad. I don't think anyone thought we would.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Rick @ Oct 24 2013, 09:51 AM) *
We expected them to be this bad? Really? I knew we had issues but I never expected them to be THIS bad. I don't think anyone thought we would.

They are giving up almost the same amount of ppg as last year. And last year didn't offer any 52 point shallackings.

Did they do something in the offseason that made you think they'd be dramatically better than last year?
Phits
"Wholesale" changes after (only) 7 games in a new system? In a system where they appear to be getting better on a weekly basis?

It's too early to push the panic button.


QUOTE (Rick @ Oct 24 2013, 10:33 AM) *
First of all, they have to prove they can get off the field (regularly) in 3rd and long situations--not for 1 game (even though they had a few issues with that against Dallas)--but regularly. One game (out of 7) does not show they are a good defense.

And I agree, if we held people to 17 points (regularly), I'd be much more happy with this defense.

Did they play better this week? Absolutely. But, again, to believe this is a good defense is ridiculous. We have a bunch of guys who may not even make rosters on many other teams much less start. We still cover horribly. We still have no safety. We still have questionable (at times) LB play (although it seems much improved vs. last season).

This defense needs wholesale changes and that's going to take time. But, again, there have been other defenses in similar situations who haven't been as bad as we've been (not counting the Dallas game).

D Rock
QUOTE (Rick @ Oct 23 2013, 09:20 PM) *
Yes, making excuses. Again, other teams have made switches like this and haven't been this bad. There is more to this than a new coach and a new system. We just don't have very good players on defense. I'm a bit skeptical about the DC as well because of how bad we are.

At what point do we stop making the excuse it's all new? I mean, they had a whole preseason and (now) about half the season. At what point do they start playing better? It all comes back to the lack of talent we have on defense. This problem has reached epic proportions.

Making a schematic switch with a new coach is only half the story. The other half is that there is no talent. I'm not impressed with Cox or Kendricks who are supposed to be the guys around which a new defense will be built. I'm seeing little promise there. Cox plays when he wants to, but too often looks disinterested. Kendricks is Ernie Simms Redux.

Folks wanna talk coaching and scheme, but without players . . . its ALL futile.

D Rock
QUOTE (Rick @ Oct 24 2013, 02:51 PM) *
We expected them to be this bad? Really? I knew we had issues but I never expected them to be THIS bad. I don't think anyone thought we would.

Of course we expected them to be this bad.

Were you not paying attention?
D Rock
QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 24 2013, 03:28 PM) *
It's too early to push the panic button.

Who's panicing? They are pretty much what most of us predicted they'd be. I'm not disappointed or surprised. I counted on them being a "bottom 5 defense" all summer long. And that's exactly what they are.

The only thing that is surprising to me, is how bad Cox and Kendricks look. The corners are better than I expected as is Ryans. But I was thinking we'd get more out of those 2 apparent "building blocks." If we're going to build around them going forward, I'm more concerned there than I am about current production or lack thereof.
Phits
QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 24 2013, 12:12 PM) *
Who's panicing?

See our fellow Winghead "Rick"
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 24 2013, 11:19 AM) *
See our fellow Wingnut "Rick"

Fixed it for you.
CT_Eagle
I just have to delete this whole thing. Different sites are providing different info so the hell with it. The run D is average at beast.
Rick
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 24 2013, 11:12 AM) *
They are giving up almost the same amount of ppg as last year. And last year didn't offer any 52 point shallackings.

Did they do something in the offseason that made you think they'd be dramatically better than last year?

Uh, no. But I didn't expect them to be WORSE. Take away the Dallas game because that's the exception rather than the rule. They have also just plain looked worse than last year.

I really can't believe someone is arguing that this defense isn't bad...

:::scratching head::::
Rick
QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 24 2013, 11:28 AM) *
"Wholesale" changes after (only) 7 games in a new system? In a system where they appear to be getting better on a weekly basis?

It's too early to push the panic button.

Really?? Too early??? You think this defense has the talent to be successful against the big boys? If so, I really don't know what to say to you.

And better is certainly relative. At least the 2ndary is closer to the open receivers (except for the safety).
Rick
QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 24 2013, 12:08 PM) *
Making a schematic switch with a new coach is only half the story. The other half is that there is no talent. I'm not impressed with Cox or Kendricks who are supposed to be the guys around which a new defense will be built. I'm seeing little promise there. Cox plays when he wants to, but too often looks disinterested. Kendricks is Ernie Simms Redux.

Folks wanna talk coaching and scheme, but without players . . . its ALL futile.

And that's exactly what I'm saying. We don't have the talent. Guys can't cover. Safety is a waste of a roster spot and we're not getting pressure up front.
Rick
QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 24 2013, 12:09 PM) *
Of course we expected them to be this bad.

Were you not paying attention?

Honestly, I don't know that anyone expected them to be this bad. Some people--myself included--thought we'd (at least) get a little pressure on the QB but that's not happening.

I figured we'd still struggle covering people but man, I'm sick of seeing guys wide friggin' open all of the time. Go back to the Giants game and look at the receivers running around wide open. Not as bad as the previous games where receivers didn't have anyone within 5 yards of them but they were still open.

Nobody expected them to give up yards in epic proportions like we have been (until this past Sunday, we'll see if we can do well again this week before I can say they're improved).
Rick
QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 24 2013, 12:19 PM) *
See our fellow Winghead "Rick"

You can call it panicking if you'd like. I'm just being realistic. This defense plain sucks. There is no way you can prove to me otherwise because, well, the stats don't lie. They suck. They suck badly. It's embarrassing watching us give up completion after completion.

Blame the scheme. Blame the coaches. Blame the talent. Blame whom ever but they plain suck.

For anyone to be trying to rationalize this at all is just delusional (at best).
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Rick @ Oct 24 2013, 03:40 PM) *
Uh, no. But I didn't expect them to be WORSE. Take away the Dallas game because that's the exception rather than the rule. They have also just plain looked worse than last year.

I really can't believe someone is arguing that this defense isn't bad...

No one said they weren't bad. No one said they were even better than last year. They are comparable to last year.

Take away the Denver game and they're actually better than last year.

QUOTE
:::scratching head::::

This has to be the single most annoying trait for any person on this board.

You're so zany.
samaroo
QUOTE (Rick @ Oct 24 2013, 04:40 PM) *
Uh, no. But I didn't expect them to be WORSE. Take away the Dallas game because that's the exception rather than the rule. They have also just plain looked worse than last year.

I really can't believe someone is arguing that this defense isn't bad...

:::scratching head::::


Like Mcnabbulous said, nobody is saying they don't suck, they're just saying they suck as expected, and are showing incremental improvements, which is promising. With a new scheme and coaches and some players (especially with OUR personnel), the suckage was expected. We knew it was coming. We HOPED they would improve as the new D "clicked," which seems like it might be the case. Which would be good.

Unlike the defense. Which is bad.
D Rock
QUOTE (Rick @ Oct 24 2013, 08:45 PM) *
Honestly, I don't know that anyone expected them to be this bad. Some people--myself included--thought we'd (at least) get a little pressure on the QB but that's not happening.

I figured we'd still struggle covering people but man, I'm sick of seeing guys wide friggin' open all of the time. Go back to the Giants game and look at the receivers running around wide open. Not as bad as the previous games where receivers didn't have anyone within 5 yards of them but they were still open.

Nobody expected them to give up yards in epic proportions like we have been (until this past Sunday, we'll see if we can do well again this week before I can say they're improved).

You were wrong. Most FULLY expected them to be this bad.
Rick
QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 25 2013, 10:46 AM) *
You were wrong. Most FULLY expected them to be this bad.

Oh, I stand corrected then. rolleyes.gif
D Rock
Seriously. I predicted a "bottom 5 defense" and that's exactly what they are. What made you think we'd get "pressure on the quarterback?" There was absolutely zero evidence to suggest anything of the sort.
Rick
QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 25 2013, 12:06 PM) *
Seriously. I predicted a "bottom 5 defense" and that's exactly what they are. What made you think we'd get "pressure on the quarterback?" There was absolutely zero evidence to suggest anything of the sort.

I didn't expect them to be a top 5 defense and their ranking doesn't tell the whole story. Other than this past game, we'd been giving up epic numbers on defense. I knew we'd be bad--towards the bottom--but not THAT bad. I also never heard ANYONE saying they'd be THAT bad (talking about the numbers they've given up.

Now, with that said, has there been improvement? Sure. But, with the personnel we have, we really can't expect much more.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Rick @ Oct 25 2013, 02:08 PM) *
I didn't expect them to be a top 5 defense and their ranking doesn't tell the whole story. Other than this past game, we'd been giving up epic numbers on defense. I knew we'd be bad--towards the bottom--but not THAT bad. I also never heard ANYONE saying they'd be THAT bad (talking about the numbers they've given up.

Now, with that said, has there been improvement? Sure. But, with the personnel we have, we really can't expect much more.


Seriously dude, there is nothing epic about this. It's very comparable to last year. I'm not sure where you are coming up with this stuff.

2012
Allowed 444 points (27.8/g), 29th.
2013
Allowed 196 points (28.0/g), 26th.

Source: Plenty of places
Rick
:::sigh:::

You guys are like my two kids...always have to get the last word in.

Ok, you've all convinced me. This isn't a bad defense. You guys happy?
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Rick @ Oct 25 2013, 04:16 PM) *
:::sigh:::

You guys are like my two kids...always have to get the last word in.

Ok, you've all convinced me. This isn't a bad defense. You guys happy?


Oh my god. Your poor kids. Their father is retarded. This is a bad defense. Just as bad as everyone expected.
:::sigh:::head scratch:::oblivilious::::
Rick
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 25 2013, 08:41 PM) *
Oh my god. Your poor kids. Their father is retarded. This is a bad defense. Just as bad as everyone expected.
:::sigh:::head scratch:::oblivilious::::

Very nice. As usual, you show what a jackass you are.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Rick @ Oct 26 2013, 04:17 PM) *
Very nice. As usual, you show what a jackass you are.


In my defense, I was drunk. But your post was idiotic...as usual.
Rick
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 26 2013, 05:28 PM) *
In my defense, I was drunk. But your post was idiotic...as usual.

And you're a jackass...as usual.
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