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mcnabbulous
Since today is a day for repenting, I'll admit that I've been wrong to be pushing the pro Vick agenda.

I still think he's the better QB for this team, right now...but his advantage there is significantly less than I had previously believed. Additionally, I don't really think he [Foles] is the QB of the future here, but who knows when we'll be in position to acquire that guy, and we need to know if he can fit that role.

My main reason for being pro-Vick to date is because I thought that was the only chance we'd have of winning this year. Since that possibility is so miniscule to begin with, he clearly doesn't offer the upside that makes him an obvious choice. Chip's QB friendly offense has narrowed the gap.

It makes sense to have him play to see what happens when teams throw different looks at him, when they've got 4 weeks of tape in Chip's offense, etc...

I still don't think he's the QB of the future, but he's on our roster and that guy may not be for a year or two. That being the case, I'm sick of having 'wasted seasons.' I want to win and if the soonest that can happen is next year, lets find out if we can do it with Foles.
D Rock
jumpclap.gif

What happened? I know you didn't listen to me. Who or what convinced you?

wink.gif
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 16 2013, 01:06 PM) *
jumpclap.gif

What happened? I know you didn't listen to me. Who or what convinced you?

wink.gif

I'm an open-minded individual smile.gif

Really, it's Chip's offense that did the convincing. Both guys look good. I expected Vick to be significantly better in the offense (as he was in the preseason.) Since that gap has narrowed, might as well go with Foles, who is clearly more efficient in the red zone right now.

After reviewing the article I just posted, I'm pretty surprised with how poor Tampa's gameplan was against us. I'm curious to see how Foles will perform against a team that plays man press.

Given that I'm concerned we may not get one of those two QB's in this upcoming draft, we need to be prepared to move forward without them. If that's the case, we need to know what Foles can offer.

And there shouldn't be a big enough dropoff from MV to him to completely throw this year away. Especially when I think we can win the division.

I won't be unhappy either way at this point. Whoever gets the starting gig moving forward.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 16 2013, 12:59 PM) *
I'll admit that I've been wrong


Constantly. The first step is acknowledgement.
Eyrie
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 16 2013, 05:59 PM) *
Since today is a day for repenting, I'll admit that I've been wrong to be pushing the pro Vick agenda.

Credit to you cool.gif

The sample on Foles in this offense is small but promising. Kelly needs accuracy and decision making more than he needs athleticism in my view, so it will be interesting to see what happens if Foles has an average game against the Cowboys. A bad game or an outstanding one will make his choice much simpler.

It's Dallas we're playing though, so I want elite level play from Foles/Vick/Barkely/ANOther.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Oct 16 2013, 01:39 PM) *
Constantly. The first step is acknowledgement.

You'll get there. That signature will be a good start.

Can't wait!
D Rock
It will be interesting to see if Foles can perform as well against the press man, single deep safety that seemed to slow Vick down. Although I don't think that's Kiffen's M/O. We may have to wait another week.
xsv
I'm pretty happy to have both guys on the team right now, to be honest. I think Vick makes the better backup since..

1.) He can't make it through 4 games in a row anymore anyways,
2.) He's likely to provide a spark if he ever has to come on in relief.
3.) Foles is more likely to be here next year, when I think we have a more realistic shot of doing some damage.
4.) I hate Mike Vick. (sorry, couldn't resist)

Bez
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Oct 16 2013, 01:43 PM) *
Credit to you cool.gif

The sample on Foles in this offense is small but promising. Kelly needs accuracy and decision making more than he needs athleticism in my view, so it will be interesting to see what happens if Foles has an average game against the Cowboys. A bad game or an outstanding one will make his choice much simpler.

It's Dallas we're playing though, so I want elite level play from Foles/Vick/Barkely/ANOther.
He reminds me of Montana
Bocadelphia Eagles John
I'm on the CHIP KELLY train.

- The situation is, the named starter is injured and not 100%
- The back up had a great game on the road, in a substitution/back up role.
- No one yet knows how long it will take for the named starter to be back to 100%
- Whenever that point comes, it will be up to CHIP KELLY to decide what to do re QB position.

WHATEVER Chip decides AT THAT POINT IN TIME will be fine by me. I trust CHIP implicitly. I trust NO fan , whether on this board or not, to have the full picture and who can reliably make that call. And thank goodness for that !

Fans, including me, are OPINIONATED. And opinions aren't in charge. But opinions CAN BE "charged".

What I am saying is, I am happy with things AS THEY ARE NOW and have no anxiety to watch this QB situation evolve. I think we're in GREAT HANDS with CHIP KELLY.


GOOOOOOOOOOOOO EAGLES !!!!!!
Flying Dutchman
At 6'6" Foles sees the field much better than Vick. He doesn't have his rocket arm but has proven he can go deep better than most fans were willing to acknowledge. What is striking now is that his pocket presence which we saw already last year, is now coupled with an improved release so that according to the stats he gets it out in 2 sec versus MV in 4. Even with his lack of speed, he seems to be smart enough to take it when the space is there and dang he also adds strength which reminds me a bit of vintage Donnie. I've always felt it takes 3 years to see a young QB hit his stride. Letting this kid learn, and take his lumps on the job might well let him turn into a Philly Fole(k)s hero. Sort of a Nick in time!!!
Jax
QUOTE (Bez @ Oct 16 2013, 04:25 PM) *
He reminds me of Montana

That's a reach but you never know. I will say that his easy delivery and catchable ball is reminiscent of Joe.
Jax
QUOTE (xsv @ Oct 16 2013, 03:14 PM) *
4.) I hate Mike Vick. (sorry, couldn't resist)


In a country that believes in second chances, people often get them and don't change. I admire Mike Vick because he sure seems to have made a positive change from what I see. I think he has grown as a person and I admire him for that and can forgive his mistakes.
Zero
I like Foles but we really need to see how good teams play him when they have his tendencies and plan for him. That said, I don't think its all about the QB here as much as it is the QB/Kelly fusion. You get a guy like P Manning, Brady or Rogers and it seems all the coach needs to do is insert an offense that compliments their advanced skills and let them play. Kelly seems to utilize Vulcan mind meld with his QBs where "advanced" skill isn't as important as recognition and quick thinking. Of course merging advanced skill and mind meld would be awesome.
Jax
QUOTE (Flying Dutchman @ Oct 16 2013, 06:10 PM) *
At 6'6" Foles sees the field much better than Vick. He doesn't have his rocket arm but has proven he can go deep better than most fans were willing to acknowledge. What is striking now is that his pocket presence which we saw already last year, is now coupled with an improved release so that according to the stats he gets it out in 2 sec versus MV in 4. Even with his lack of speed, he seems to be smart enough to take it when the space is there and dang he also adds strength which reminds me a bit of vintage Donnie. I've always felt it takes 3 years to see a young QB hit his stride. Letting this kid learn, and take his lumps on the job might well let him turn into a Philly Fole(k)s hero. Sort of a Nick in time!!!

Dutch, I hope you are right. I agree with you in that I think Foles has a bit more potential than has been commonly thought here on the board. I have probably been the #1 Foles supporter on the board since the day we drafted him. I am not making any kind of guarantees about Foles but there is reason to be optimistic!
xsv
QUOTE (Jax @ Oct 16 2013, 10:22 PM) *
In a country that believes in second chances, people often get them and don't change. I admire Mike Vick because he sure seems to have made a positive change from what I see. I think he has grown as a person and I admire him for that and can forgive his mistakes.


I don't know about him having grown as a person, but he certainly got his second chance. Nothing wrong with that.

HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (xsv @ Oct 17 2013, 09:45 AM) *
I don't know about him having grown as a person, but he certainly got his second chance. Nothing wrong with that.


He appears to be a great teammate and leader, and has not caused any problems or distractions apart from his sometimes-atrocious play. He got his second chance and appears to be making the most of it.
D Rock
He was always loved y his team mates and most guys who last in the league until their 30s "become 'leaders".

Who wouldn't make the most of a 2nd chance at 9 figures? It's amazing what prison will teach a guy.

I'm not saying he didn't do those things or grow that way. I'm just saying that having done so doesn't slate him for canonization for me.
Jax
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Oct 17 2013, 09:49 AM) *
He appears to be a great teammate and leader, and has not caused any problems or distractions apart from his sometimes-atrocious play. He got his second chance and appears to be making the most of it.


X, I agree with HoP on this one. From my view he sure seems to have grown from it.
Jax
QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 17 2013, 10:43 AM) *
He was always loved y his team mates and most guys who last in the league until their 30s "become 'leaders".

Who wouldn't make the most of a 2nd chance at 9 figures? It's amazing what prison will teach a guy.

I'm not saying he didn't do those things or grow that way. I'm just saying that having done so doesn't slate him for canonization for me.

Nor am I saying that he should become a Nobel Peace Prize winner, merely stating that I respect and admire the way he appears to have rehabilitated himself and grown as a person.
Phits
QUOTE (Jax @ Oct 17 2013, 02:51 PM) *
Nor am I saying that he should become a Nobel Peace Prize winner, merely stating that I respect and admire the way he appears to have rehabilitated himself and grown as a person.

+1 jumpclap.gif
nephillymike
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 16 2013, 01:15 PM) *
I'm an open-minded individual smile.gif

Really, it's Chip's offense that did the convincing. Both guys look good. I expected Vick to be significantly better in the offense (as he was in the preseason.) Since that gap has narrowed, might as well go with Foles, who is clearly more efficient in the red zone right now.

After reviewing the article I just posted, I'm pretty surprised with how poor Tampa's gameplan was against us. I'm curious to see how Foles will perform against a team that plays man press.

Given that I'm concerned we may not get one of those two QB's in this upcoming draft, we need to be prepared to move forward without them. If that's the case, we need to know what Foles can offer.

And there shouldn't be a big enough dropoff from MV to him to completely throw this year away. Especially when I think we can win the division.

I won't be unhappy either way at this point. Whoever gets the starting gig moving forward.


I agree but I will say Vick makes the offense more powerful, but Foles has played great and I feel confident that either of them gives us a good chance to win. I did not think that after the preseason. And unlike most, I think if Foles plays well or if Vick plays well, either could be the QB of the future, defined as the QB for the next three years. My concern for Foles is that on the long ball, he still underthrows it a bit. Cooper was a TD for sure, but it should have been two feet further. The better CB's will knock that down. Also, the wobble on the ball could lead to fluttering on the cold windy days. But thru 1-1/2 games, what's not to like? One reason I thought Foles would win the job was his improvement from rookie year which is normally a big jump. It is very possible that the game has slowed down for him quite a bit. I just want to win. And this week, I don't care who QB's as long as we beat the fucking Cowboys!!!
nephillymike
QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 17 2013, 03:35 PM) *
+1 jumpclap.gif

+ another 1
D Rock
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 18 2013, 02:34 AM) *
I agree but I will say Vick makes the offense more powerful

I don't get this sentiment at all. How is a field goal generating offense more powerful than one generating TDs? The offense you're suggesting is the more powerful took 9 halves of football to generate the points that the other got in 3. And you're the resident numbers guy? Long ball? Foles has a better QB rating when throwing more than 20 yards downfield. By a good margin. And while we're sitting here having this discussion because Vick is hurt again (AGAIN) how you could suggest for a second that Vick has a future here (let alone a 3 year future) is beyond me. Now we don't even need contact to have this guy go down for a few weeks. And he'll be 34 next season.
Phits
QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 18 2013, 04:13 AM) *
I don't get this sentiment at all. How is a field goal generating offense more powerful than one generating TDs?

Have you given consideration to the strength of the opposition? Chargers, Chiefs, Broncos vs. Giants & Bucs.
nephillymike
QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 18 2013, 03:13 AM) *
I don't get this sentiment at all. How is a field goal generating offense more powerful than one generating TDs? The offense you're suggesting is the more powerful took 9 halves of football to generate the points that the other got in 3. And you're the resident numbers guy? Long ball? Foles has a better QB rating when throwing more than 20 yards downfield. By a good margin. And while we're sitting here having this discussion because Vick is hurt again (AGAIN) how you could suggest for a second that Vick has a future here (let alone a 3 year future) is beyond me. Now we don't even need contact to have this guy go down for a few weeks. And he'll be 34 next season.


I see your point about Vick and the future with his age. Maybe that's a stretch, but my point was more if he plays well, there's no guarantee he couldn't play a few more years.

Foles played great vs. TB and he deserved all the credit he's gotten. No doubt. But many people were praising him over Vick for the NYG game and most would have been very happy if we made the QB switch at that point, whether or not Vick got healthy. In that game, you know the one where points are important as you say, Vick had more points per possession that Foles. But, you would never know it? Why was that? My opinion is that people only needed to see a glimmer to go the way they already wanted to go. The only thing that screwed things up was Vick handily beat out Foles in the QB competition. One other thing is Vick's efficiency. At 9.08 ish combined yards per attempt, he is top in the NFL, a huge margin behind #2 P. Manning. You wouldn't know it. Again, only need a glimmer.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 18 2013, 05:54 AM) *
I see your point about Vick and the future with his age. Maybe that's a stretch, but my point was more if he plays well, there's no guarantee he couldn't play a few more years.

Foles played great vs. TB and he deserved all the credit he's gotten. No doubt. But many people were praising him over Vick for the NYG game and most would have been very happy if we made the QB switch at that point, whether or not Vick got healthy. In that game, you know the one where points are important as you say, Vick had more points per possession that Foles. But, you would never know it? Why was that? My opinion is that people only needed to see a glimmer to go the way they already wanted to go. The only thing that screwed things up was Vick handily beat out Foles in the QB competition. One other thing is Vick's efficiency. At 9.08 ish combined yards per attempt, he is top in the NFL, a huge margin behind #2 P. Manning. You wouldn't know it. Again, only need a glimmer.

Agree with all of this. Vick's performance in the red zone leaves a lot to be desired, but his consistent success in putting points on the board has been solid. I don't expect him to get dramatically better in the red zone, but I think Chip can do some things differently to bring more success.

Bottom line: We're in good shape with both of them at the helm. Vick offers more upside, Foles more consistency. But to suggest Vick has done anything to deserve getting benched is silly. Even with his red zone struggles.
nephillymike
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 18 2013, 10:11 AM) *
Agree with all of this. Vick's performance in the red zone leaves a lot to be desired, but his consistent success in putting points on the board has been solid. I don't expect him to get dramatically better in the red zone, but I think Chip can do some things differently to bring more success.

Bottom line: We're in good shape with both of them at the helm. Vick offers more upside, Foles more consistency. But to suggest Vick has done anything to deserve getting benched is silly. Even with his red zone struggles.


Foles has played great in red zone, no doubt. But, take away the two dropped TD's on vick and add two drops to Foles and Vick looks a lot better with the small sample size.
D Rock
QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 18 2013, 10:40 AM) *
Have you given consideration to the strength of the opposition? Chargers, Chiefs, Broncos vs. Giants & Bucs.

Of course I have. Bucs D is better than Broncos (sans VonMiller) Giants and Chargers.
D Rock
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 18 2013, 10:54 AM) *
At 9.08 ish combined yards per attempt, he is top in the NFL, a huge margin behind #2 P. Manning. You wouldn't know it. Again, only need a glimmer.

And who's #3? Thats right. Foles with 8.9 yards per attempt. Considering he's completing his passes at a 69.7% rate compared to Vick's 54% completion rate . . . I call that a wash if not an outright win for Foles.

Add Foles 60% TD rate in the red zone to Vick's 30% and it's really a no brainer to me.
D Rock
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 18 2013, 04:40 PM) *
Foles has played great in red zone, no doubt. But, take away the two dropped TD's on vick and add two drops to Foles and Vick looks a lot better with the small sample size.

LOL

Add balls to my aunt and she's my uncle. Take away my uncle's balls and he's my aunt.

Perhaps Foles throws a more catchable ball? (Balls)
D Rock
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 18 2013, 03:11 PM) *
Bottom line: We're in good shape with both of them at the helm. Vick offers more upside, Foles more consistency. But to suggest Vick has done anything to deserve getting benched is silly. Even with his red zone struggles.

I agree we're in good shape with both of them.

But unless you define "upside" as "inconsistency combined with an increased likelyhood of injury" I fail to see how he offers any "upside."

It's striking to me how folks are impressed by QB running. It's not indicative of good QB play in any way. As a passer and quarterback there is little question that he's inferior to Nick. When non contact injuries rear their ugly head on a 31 year old quarterback, the upside is gone.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 18 2013, 02:21 PM) *
I agree we're in good shape with both of them.

But unless you define "upside" as "inconsistency combined with an increased likelyhood of injury" I fail to see how he offers any "upside."

It's striking to me how folks are impressed by QB running. It's not indicative of good QB play in any way. As a passer and quarterback there is little question that he's inferior to Nick. When non contact injuries rear their ugly head on a 31 year old quarterback, the upside is gone.

His game against the Chargers is what I'm referring to. 428 yards passing with 2 scores. Another 34 on the ground (at nearly 7 yards a clip) and another score.

Or his game against the Skins from 2010. Foles obviously can put up big numbers in this offense. His numbers against the Bucs were obviously huge. But Vick's threat with his legs offers an element that is incredibly intriguing.

At this point, it's not worth debating anymore. We'll get to see how sustainable Foles' production is for one more week. Then we can have this convo all over again. smile.gif

Hopefully he'll keep the debate just as interesting. Or even settle the debate for himself.

nephillymike
QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 18 2013, 02:14 PM) *
And who's #3? Thats right. Foles with 8.9 yards per attempt. Considering he's completing his passes at a 69.7% rate compared to Vick's 54% completion rate . . . I call that a wash if not an outright win for Foles.

Add Foles 60% TD rate in the red zone to Vick's 30% and it's really a no brainer to me.



Foles is #4. Still great.

It's combined yards per combined attempt (pass and run).

Vick is like 9.08 ish
manning and Rodger are 8.46ish
Foles is 8.15.

See my separate post on the subject.
nephillymike
QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 18 2013, 02:17 PM) *
LOL

Add balls to my aunt and she's my uncle. Take away my uncle's balls and he's my aunt.

Perhaps Foles throws a more catchable ball? (Balls)


Not on the two passes I'm talking about. We're not talking McNabb worm burners here.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 18 2013, 04:45 PM) *
Not on the two passes I'm talking about. We're not talking McNabb worm burners here.


I could not get past the "ass a passer and a Qb he is inferior to Foles".........He had a nice game last week.....he throws punts downfield.......he is having a bad day in the short pass today...a terrible combination....
D Rock
Fugly half of football.

Ugh
mcnabbulous
Woof. This pretty much closes the door on any debate once Vick is healthy.
JeeQ
Time it took for people to want Vick back: one half
Dr. Claw
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 20 2013, 03:08 PM) *
Woof. This pretty much closes the door on any debate once Vick is healthy.


Credit due to the Dallas defense. They're taking McCoy out of the game for the most part. But Foles is doing them no favors. 0 points in a half. Those are Eli Manning numbers.
JeeQ
Foles wants to be a Backup QB. This is obvious from his performance tonight
Eyrie
Just as one bad game wouldn't be enough to bench Vick, so one bad game shouldn't be enough to bench Foles. But it's fucking tempting.
JeeQ
We are nothing without Michael Vick... I hope we all realize that now
iggleslover49
I'm on record for saying I like Vick more. But I had some faith Foles though. Not anymore. Barkley is forced to play now and is making some rookie mistakes but his balls(no homo) looks much better. Foles is nothing more than a backup. He is was what I thought he was all offseason; only good for spot duty. Chip absolutely needs a mobile QB for this system. We need to make a run for mariota this offseason...
iggleslover49
I got it... We lost because we played at home...
CT_Eagle
QUOTE (JeeQ @ Oct 20 2013, 09:04 PM) *
We are nothing without Michael Vick... I hope we all realize that now


We are nothing with Vick either. This is not a playoff team. The only reason to go back to Vick is that you plan on building the next 3-5 seasons around him. I sincerely hope that is not Chip's plan. Foles had a bad game no doubt. So did McCoy. Jackson had some drops too. It was an all around poor performance by the offense. Now the Eagles need to see if Foles can rebound. If he can't, then it is time to look forward to drafting and developing another QB. Vick is not the answer.
iggleslover49
QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Oct 20 2013, 05:06 PM) *
We are nothing with Vick either. This is not a playoff team. The only reason to go back to Vick is that you plan on building the next 3-5 seasons around him. I sincerely hope that is not Chip's plan. Foles had a bad game no doubt. So did McCoy. Jackson had some drops too. It was an all around poor performance by the offense. Now the Eagles need to see if Foles can rebound. If he can't, then it is time to look forward to drafting and developing another QB. Vick is not the answer.

I'm sure he will rebound against a winless Giants next week. He better, because that will be his last shot at unseating Vick, which won't happen regardless of if he has a good game or not.

The way I feel right now, we should trade Foles to draft a future QB next season and sign Vick to be a veteran presence behind the Rookie, who should be mobile enough to be a threat to run; so we can effectively run this offense the way its supposed to be run.
CT_Eagle
QUOTE (iggleslover49 @ Oct 20 2013, 10:15 PM) *
I'm sure he will rebound against a winless Giants next week. He better, because that will be his last shot at unseating Vick, which won't happen regardless of if he has a good game or not.


Foles should come back against the Giants. If he does not then Chip is going to have to start considering if he needs to draft a QB next year. Regardless of the outcome next week, the evaluation of Foles should continue. There is nothing to be gained by starting Vick unless you are happy with anything less than a Super Bowl.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Oct 20 2013, 05:21 PM) *
Foles should come back against the Giants. If he does not then Chip is going to have to start considering if he needs to draft a QB next year. Regardless of the outcome next week, the evaluation of Foles should continue. There is nothing to be gained by starting Vick unless you are happy with anything less than a Super Bowl.


We should be looking to draft a QB regardless
CT_Eagle
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 21 2013, 12:14 AM) *
We should be looking to draft a QB regardless


You may be right but I am not there yet. I want to see more of Foles before he is cast aside.
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