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koolaidluke
McNabb has been gone for 4 years now and I have had the opportunity to see lot's of different QBs and get over my anger towards him so I am starting to see him in a different light then I used to.

I still think he was genuinely awful in 2006 and 2007 and I hated the way he played the game (sort of an anti Alex Smith: lots of big plays but struggled with the routine plays. I like "boring" players and McNabb was anything but.) but I no longer think he was a "fraud" as I labeled him many times.

When I called him a fraud, what I meant was that he wasn't as good as his numbers indicated. While that was definitely true for 06 and 07 (in which he was horrendous) for the most part he really was as good as his numbers said he was. My explanation for his numbers was that even in his most terrible games he would always manage to throw a TD and he pretty much never threw an interception. That was true, but my mistake was not seeing how big a deal that was. His post 2004 numbers said he was a decent, but hardly elite QB and he was just that.

Every QB has good games and bad games. That's just how it goes. And maybe McNabb's highs and lows were a little more extreme than most, but I think the good definitely outweighed the bad overall.

And while McNabb did cease to be an elite QB after 2004, he still was able to be consistently productive. And the rapid rise and fall of guys like Vick, Ponder, Freeman and Kaepernick shows that just as important as having a good season is the ability to replicate that year after year, which McNabb did. McNabb provided stability at the most important position on the field, even in the years where the Eagles struggled.
Jax
Good points
mcnabbulous
McNabb was never bad, he was simply inconsistent. That causes two problems, as I see it.

1) It's hard to plan for, thus winning consistently becomes more challenging
2) It fucks with expectations. His occassional greatness would want us expecting more from him during his down times.

The biggest problem with inconsistency is that winning a SuperBowl requires 3-4 straight games of good play.
xsv
My biggest gripe of McNabb was that he bulked up so much. Seems like he just hit the weights too hard to try to endure the punishment an NFL qb takes. But bigger muscles means more oxygen is needed, and in the 2nd half of his career, it was obvious he didn't have the conditioning to support all of those muscles. This diminished this greatest asset, his running ability.

He was always a slightly above average passer, with lesser accuracy and greater attention to taking care of the football. Combine that with the running threat and you have darn close to an elite QB. Take away the running threat and you just have a slightly above average passer.
Jax
QUOTE (xsv @ Oct 16 2013, 11:22 AM) *
My biggest gripe of McNabb was that he bulked up so much. Seems like he just hit the weights too hard to try to endure the punishment an NFL qb takes. But bigger muscles means more oxygen is needed, and in the 2nd half of his career, it was obvious he didn't have the conditioning to support all of those muscles. This diminished this greatest asset, his running ability.

He was always a slightly above average passer, with lesser accuracy and greater attention to taking care of the football. Combine that with the running threat and you have darn close to an elite QB. Take away the running threat and you just have a slightly above average passer.

Very good points!
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (xsv @ Oct 16 2013, 10:22 AM) *
My biggest gripe of McNabb was that he bulked up so much. Seems like he just hit the weights too hard to try to endure the punishment an NFL qb takes. But bigger muscles means more oxygen is needed, and in the 2nd half of his career, it was obvious he didn't have the conditioning to support all of those muscles. This diminished this greatest asset, his running ability.

He was always a slightly above average passer, with lesser accuracy and greater attention to taking care of the football. Combine that with the running threat and you have darn close to an elite QB. Take away the running threat and you just have a slightly above average passer.

This almost exactly sums up my opinion. I've always said that he became a moderately better passer over his career, while becoming a significantly lesser runner.
samaroo
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 16 2013, 10:51 AM) *
This almost exactly sums up my opinion. I've always said that he became a moderately better passer over his career, while becoming a significantly lesser runner.


That hurt my head to read...
nephillymike
I think McNabb was three decent post Eagles seasons away from the HOF. The fact he collapsed after he left here hurt his chances beyond repair.

Andy put so much on McNabb. He never had the luxury of the good matchups a play action game would have given him. His pass happy ways really hurt his performance. The other thing was McNabb's inaccurate short game cost a lot of yards after the catch. You can see Vick and Foles throw a much better short pass, caught in a good spot with the guy ready to run. That was always a struggle. But Nabby had great downfield throwing ability.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 17 2013, 10:12 PM) *
I think McNabb was three decent post Eagles seasons away from the HOF. The fact he collapsed after he left here hurt his chances beyond repair.

Andy put so much on McNabb. He never had the luxury of the good matchups a play action game would have given him. His pass happy ways really hurt his performance. The other thing was McNabb's inaccurate short game cost a lot of yards after the catch. You can see Vick and Foles throw a much better short pass, caught in a good spot with the guy ready to run. That was always a struggle. But Nabby had great downfield throwing ability.

UGH...

I can't believe people still haven't figured this out. We were pass happy because of McNabb. The same reason Shanahan threw more with McNabb as his QB than ever before in his career. This, despite the fact that I heard countless times, "just wait until McNabb gets to play with a coach that knows how to use the run game."

McNabb's "innacurate short game" is the exact reason we were throwing the ball so much. Because of that "innacurate short game" we regularly found ourselves in 2nd and 3rd and long situations.

Statistically, if we were at 2nd and 5, it often made sense to throw the next two times because it gave McNabb two opportunities to complete a short to mid-range throw.

Early in his career, he used his legs to function as his "short game." Once that skill went away, so did our ability to consistently succeed on those types of plays.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 18 2013, 11:02 AM) *
I can't believe people still haven't figured this out


Yes, I know. The last few remaining Reid apologists still make me pull my hair out. Do you want to visit our record on when we ran the ball with Westbrook? How about when we passed 80% of the time?

Because of McNabb's skill and JJ bailing us out, our ridiculously predictable offense worked most of the time in terms of win-loss. How many playoff games have we won since he left? Or been in, for that matter? What's our regular season record in the 3 seasons prior to this one?

wacko.gif
Dr. Claw
QUOTE (xsv @ Oct 16 2013, 11:22 AM) *
My biggest gripe of McNabb was that he bulked up so much. Seems like he just hit the weights too hard to try to endure the punishment an NFL qb takes. But bigger muscles means more oxygen is needed, and in the 2nd half of his career, it was obvious he didn't have the conditioning to support all of those muscles. This diminished this greatest asset, his running ability.


this actually ties into the one problem I had with McNabb -- he stopped running. Almost as if he had started drinking that "pocket passer >>>>>>" Kool-Aid.

It would have also helped if he wasn't so wary of getting banged up in the pocket since the Eagles tended to pass the ball to set up the run. two straight years... seemed like after 2006 this was the case, after 2 seasons where he was gone for the year after being banged up.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Oct 18 2013, 10:23 AM) *
Yes, I know. The last few remaining Reid apologists still make me pull my hair out. Do you want to visit our record on when we ran the ball with Westbrook? How about when we passed 80% of the time?

Because of McNabb's skill and JJ bailing us out, our ridiculously predictable offense worked most of the time in terms of win-loss. How many playoff games have we won since he left? Or been in, for that matter? What's our regular season record in the 3 seasons prior to this one?

wacko.gif

What is the Chiefs record again? How's that signature coming along?
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 18 2013, 11:55 AM) *
What is the Chiefs record again? How's that signature coming along?


They're doing well - have you found a Chiefs board to go to yet? It's pretty sad that in order to be right for the first time ever, it has to be while rooting for another team. But I'll happily give you your little moral victory - will you post us a pic of you in your Chiefs jersey?
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Oct 18 2013, 11:14 AM) *
They're doing well - have you found a Chiefs board to go to yet? It's pretty sad that in order to be right for the first time ever, it has to be while rooting for another team. But I'll happily give you your little moral victory - will you post us a pic of you in your Chiefs jersey?

Says the guy who has been cheering against the Eagles and Reid for the past 3 years. Don't project your own shit on me.

The fact that you're so oblivious to how wrong you've been is priceless. The whole premise of our bet was around the fact that the Chiefs success was indicitive of the fact that Reid's coaching wasn't the problem in Philly. Now that you're going to lose (in an epic fashion, mind you) you're still in denial about things.

The funny thing is that I credit McNabb with much of our success, especially early in his career. Even later, when we weren't as successful, McNabb was still a good QB. My point is that he simply wasn't very accurate and his consistency limited our ability to succeed at times.

The simple fact that Shanahan used him in the same exact way as Reid should indicate that Reid's coaching style wasn't the problem. The fact that he fizzled out so quickly after leaving Philly should indicate that Reid was maximizing his abilities at that point in his career.

Our problems when McNabb left weren't on that side of the ball. Our defense deteriorated due to poor personnel decisions over the course of a decade. A lot of that is on Reid, although I don't know how a head coach is expected to truly be able to evaluate talent to the extent that the job requires. Instead, Reid had to rely on the recommendations of his evaluators. And it's clear that our entire evaluation process was dramatically flawed.

So yeah, we are seeing Reid succeed because he is not plagued by the poor personnel decisions that impacted his roster in Philly. Because Reid is a great coach. It's really that simple.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 18 2013, 12:34 PM) *
The whole premise of our bet was around the fact that the Chiefs success was indicitive of the fact that Reid's coaching wasn't the problem in Philly.


The whole premise of the bet was that as a Reid apologist, you were rooting for the Chiefs more than the team you supposedly like in order to try to claim some moral victory in continuing to defend him. I simply assumed that a 2-14 team with a new system would win less than 7 in that division. As it turns out, with their roster healthy they really were a good team to begin with. Congratulations.

You're part of a dying breed, almost everyone was forced to admit that Andy's coaching flaws became too big to ignore. You can continue to be in denial all you want.....sometimes when I play basketball with my 6 year old nephew I let him win, and he brags all day long about how he beat me. And it makes me happy, knowing that I'm giving him victory and making his day - just as I'm happy to do with you, by changing my signature. wub.gif
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Oct 18 2013, 12:34 PM) *
The whole premise of the bet was that as a Reid apologist, you were rooting for the Chiefs more than the team you supposedly like in order to try to claim some moral victory in continuing to defend him. I simply assumed that a 2-14 team with a new system would win less than 7 in that division. As it turns out, with their roster healthy they really were a good team to begin with. Congratulations.


No...this was the premise of the bet

QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Aug 15 2013, 08:10 AM) *
I'll change my tag to 'Andy is a football God, McNabb was the problem' or something like that, and you write the reverse when the Chiefs finish with 6 wins or fewer.

I'm open to other suggestions if you have any.


I'm sure now you'll be mesmerized with my ability to use the search feature on this website. I'm like a fucking magician to you.

QUOTE
You're part of a dying breed, almost everyone was forced to admit that Andy's coaching flaws became too big to ignore. You can continue to be in denial all you want.....sometimes when I play basketball with my 6 year old nephew I let him win, and he brags all day long about how he beat me. And it makes me happy, knowing that I'm giving him victory and making his day - just as I'm happy to do with you, by changing my signature. wub.gif


Uh no, it clearly had nothing to do with his coaching flaws. It clearly had everything to do with the lack of talent on our roster. Now that he has a capable team, he is once again proving himself to be one of the top coaches in football.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE
No...this was the premise of the bet. I'm like a fucking magician to you.


laugh.gif

More like a mental patient. Thank you for reminding me of the nature of the conversation and bet, and why you are in fact insane. Like I said, only a Reid-apologist could be this rabid and serious and a random bet concerning a team in another conference. The few of you that are left amaze me.

QUOTE
Uh no, it clearly had nothing to do with his coaching flaws. It clearly had everything to do with the lack of talent on our roster. Now that he has a capable team, he is once again proving himself to be one of the top coaches in football.


Yes, his all-pro stocked defense has allowed him to weather the storm of powerhouses that is the NFC East, Jacksonville, Tennessee, and Oakland. However, as has been proven countless times (to all but the most dogmatic of Reid-apologists), his coaching flaws will once again rear their ugly heads when he faces good teams. That is why we never won a ring with him, we had several rosters that should've. Reid-apologism should be classified as a mental disorder.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Oct 18 2013, 12:58 PM) *
That is why we never won a ring with him, we had several rosters that should've.

We maybe had one roster that was the best in football. 2002. Our QB just happened to break his leg that year.

You've proven time and time again to be a foolish asshat. I really don't care about the Chiefs. I like Reid as a coach and I enjoy being proven right, as has been consistently the case in my interactions with you.

I was the first person on this board to call attention to Reid's problems as a personnel guy, when most everyone else wanted him to leave the sidelines and only command that post. It's quite clear the guy is an amazing coach, when limited to that role.

Anyone who can't see that is either dumb or blind. I suspect your vision is pretty good.

But you're right, he may very well struggle against Peyton Manning this year. Which will prove that he's a bad coach. Because most coaches have success against Peyton Manning and Tom Brady.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 18 2013, 02:04 PM) *
Because most coaches have success against Peyton Manning and Tom Brady.


And JaMarcus Russell.....
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Oct 18 2013, 01:15 PM) *
And JaMarcus Russell.....

I can cherry pick a few games where he did beat the best teams in football, if you want to play that game.

But hey, lets take a look at this gem from Oct 10, 2011. I don't want to say I'm a prophet, but...actually yes I do.

QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 10 2011, 06:19 PM) *
Totally agree. That's why I'm actually ok with his departure. I think he's fine as a coach...but all of those other responsibilities should be stripped. We all know that will never happen.

Reid will likely go to another team and have immediate success, because he'll be rolling out a roster full of another guys players. He'll be forced to adjust to their abilities...rather than build a roster based on what looks good in his notebook. He'll likely have capable LB's and a team that is willing to smack someone in the mouth. We used to have that.

I think the lack of discipline has more to do with personnel and less to do with his coaching. There is an obvious lack of personal responsibility from the players. Do you think that shit would be going down if Dawkins or Trotter were in the huddle?


Link
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 18 2013, 02:18 PM) *
I can cherry pick a few games where he did beat the best teams in football, if you want to play that game.


And Brad Johnson.....
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Oct 18 2013, 01:22 PM) *
And Brad Johnson.....

And Peyton Manning and Ben Roethlistberger and Brett Favre. What's your point?

I'm done interacting with you. You're wrong. You're always wrong. You don't even need to change your signature, because it won't change the fact that you're beyond repair.

You can change your screenname, but you've been spewing the same wrong bullshit for years around here. And now, Reid has proven you wrong and proven my exact scenario to come to fruition.

For the sake of good times, here is another gem that happened to be in that same thread. From way back in 2008.

QUOTE
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 7 2008, 12:36 PM) *
I've made reference to this several time the past few seasons, but I think the biggest problem with our organization is the "single mindset" which exists throughout. AR came in with a notebook about how to build a franchise. He has surrounded himself with personnel people who agree with the mindset. We have a roster full of guys who are company men because AR thinks the best way to win is to have a uniform locker room. Unfortunately, we have a locker room that lacks leadership and is void of passion on the field.

IMO, AR is a very good coach. Frankly, I think much of the complaints about his game day shortcomings are hyperbole. I think 30 other cities around the NFL bitch about the same things as we do here. With that being said, this past Sunday was one of his worst performances in that regard. It has pushed me to the opinion that it may be time to move on.

I think what's best for our organization is to bring in a new outside GM (Pioli anyone?) He can make personnel decisions that are best for the organization, regardless of whether they fit into Andy's notebook. AR can be given time to coach this individuals personnel and if there is still no improvement, said GM can select a new coach.

I think AR is a good coach, Heckert is a good talent evaluator, but there is clearly something missing from the equation. IMO its a toughness that this team has lacked for years. Maybe a new GM can instill that toughness in our roster.

So, what happened when Reid coached a team made up of guys drafted by Pioli? Oh. Got it.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 18 2013, 02:31 PM) *
And Peyton Manning and Ben Roethlistberger and Brett Favre. What's your point?


And Jake Delhomme.....
Dr. Claw
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Oct 18 2013, 02:34 PM) *
And Jake Delhomme.....


to be fair, that version of Jake Delhomme wasn't the "Eli" version
nephillymike
Hey HOP,

They are favored to get to the 7 win mark this week in 7 tries!!

Sometimes you got to retreat and come back to fight another battle.

Just sayin.

For the record, I was no Reid fan in the end. I'm thrilled we have Chip. I do think Andy's short comings will show up in the big games yet to come. Maybe retreat, regroup, and save up a bet for the playoff game when Andy is favored at home. May be your best bet to save face and get that signature changed to something more to your liking.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 18 2013, 03:56 PM) *
For the record, I was no Reid fan in the end.

And for the record, by the end, I knew it was Reid's time to go. Just for different reasons than most everyone else. Personnel over coaching.

QUOTE
I'm thrilled we have Chip.

I really wouldn't want anyone else at this point. I'm smitten.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 18 2013, 04:56 PM) *
Hey HOP,

They are favored to get to the 7 win mark this week in 7 tries!!

Sometimes you got to retreat and come back to fight another battle.

Just sayin.

For the record, I was no Reid fan in the end. I'm thrilled we have Chip. I do think Andy's short comings will show up in the big games yet to come. Maybe retreat, regroup, and save up a bet for the playoff game when Andy is favored at home. May be your best bet to save face and get that signature changed to something more to your liking.



wasting your breath Mikey....
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 18 2013, 04:56 PM) *
Hey HOP,

They are favored to get to the 7 win mark this week in 7 tries!!

Sometimes you got to retreat and come back to fight another battle.

Just sayin.

For the record, I was no Reid fan in the end. I'm thrilled we have Chip. I do think Andy's short comings will show up in the big games yet to come. Maybe retreat, regroup, and save up a bet for the playoff game when Andy is favored at home. May be your best bet to save face and get that signature changed to something more to your liking.


I don't see where we disagree. This thread makes it absolutely clear who sees a simple casual bet on Chiefs' wins as a 'battle.' They'll get their 7 wins, I'll change my signature, and all will be right in the world. Andy's eventual collapse to playoff contenders was always inevitable anyway, most people here thought he would have less than 7 wins, and Vegas put the over/under at 7.5. I just think it's sad how badly he needs to have his little moral victory in order to be 'right' for the first time ever, while rooting more for the Chiefs than the Eagles this year. Oh well, like I said, like playing basketball with my nephew. I'll happily give him his self-esteem boost.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Oct 19 2013, 02:50 PM) *
I don't see where we disagree. This thread makes it absolutely clear who sees a simple casual bet on Chiefs' wins as a 'battle.' They'll get their 7 wins, I'll change my signature, and all will be right in the world. Andy's eventual collapse to playoff contenders was always inevitable anyway, most people here thought he would have less than 7 wins, and Vegas put the over/under at 7.5. I just think it's sad how badly he needs to have his little moral victory in order to be 'right' for the first time ever, while rooting more for the Chiefs than the Eagles this year. Oh well, like I said, like playing basketball with my nephew. I'll happily give him his self-esteem boost.


you said they have a terrible coach(silly enough on it own merit) and they have no players......you were clearly weong on both accounts but what really gets me is how you equate someone pointing out that you are grossly wrong as rooting for the Cheifs more than the Eagles? How, in the bizarre mind of yours, do you make that leap? It was pretty easy to predict Kansas City's chance for success this season and it will make me a few sheckles in the process....I love it but I have not watched any of their games. Somehow you see thinking Reid was a good coach as being some sort of apologist which is pretty fucked up considering the guys record.

It isn't your nephew who needs the self esteem boost...I don't think I have ever encountered someone with such insecurity.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 19 2013, 04:32 PM) *
you said they have a terrible coach(silly enough on it own merit) and they have no players


laugh.gif

LOL @ Fantasy Fan.

Nobody here has ever said that Reid was a terrible coach with any sort of seriousness, and the fact that you continue to fall back on that is proof of how hollow your arguments are.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Oct 19 2013, 04:38 PM) *
laugh.gif

LOL @ Fantasy Fan.

Nobody here has ever said that Reid was a terrible coach with any sort of seriousness, and the fact that you continue to fall back on that is proof of how hollow your arguments are.


yep...keep talking......convince the last 2 people on this board who don't think you are an idiot that they are wrong.....


koolaidluke
McNabb would never have played a game like this.
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