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Zero
I don't like QB controversies and I agree that Vick should probably return to the starter until he buries himself. That said, can Vick improve as a player? Personally, I don't think so. He may be able to limit his mistakes but I think his days of getting better are gone. Vick is too thoroughly programmed to change.

On the other hand, Foles is still learning. I've compared him to Feeley but he's apparently a good student and should have the room to learn and improve if he's coached and plays as the starter. That doesn't mean he's the answer to the Eagles' QB needs, but he's still an unknown.

Next year is supposed to be a banner year for QBs. At some point the Eagles need to know if they have to draft one. Do practices and limited game exposure give them enough information to know if Foles or even Barkley can be the player they need at QB? They need play makers on defense, it would be nice if they could avoid using a pick on a QB next year.
koolaidluke
I agree that Vick should probably return to the starter until he buries himself

Why? Hadn't he already buried himself anyway? What has he done since the first two games?

We know he isn't coming back next year and I don't believe he gives us a better chance to win THIS year. The Eagles need to know what they've got in Foles.

This is a no brainer. Foles has to be the guy.

If Foles stinks out the joint or even just loses against Dallas, however, I see Kelly returning to Vick. Kelly put himself in a very difficult situation by bringing Vick back.
mcnabbulous
I think the big question that will determine everything is whether Chip wants to find "his guy."

If he is content with rolling with a guy that doesn't offer the run/pass option, then giving Foles the nod makes perfect sense. If that's the case, ultimately I think we will see much more of him this year.

Alternatively, if his preferred offense is going to feature a more mobile QB, than it makes sense to stick with Vick until he offers no more value.

Ultimately, Foles isn't Chip's guy, so it makes sense that he wouldn't be completely enamored. Even if he thinks he is capable.
Jax
QUOTE (koolaidluke @ Oct 15 2013, 07:08 AM) *
I agree that Vick should probably return to the starter until he buries himself

Why? Hadn't he already buried himself anyway? What has he done since the first two games?

We know he isn't coming back next year and I don't believe he gives us a better chance to win THIS year. The Eagles need to know what they've got in Foles.

This is a no brainer. Foles has to be the guy.

If Foles stinks out the joint or even just loses against Dallas, however, I see Kelly returning to Vick. Kelly put himself in a very difficult situation by bringing Vick back.

I agree with this except the fact that Vick had totally buried himself already. He had one bad game, a couple so-so games and a couple good games.

Regarding Foles and Zero's comparison to Feeley, it is starting to appear to me that his downside is being AJ Feeley and his upside is higher. Who knows how much higher right now but that is what we need to know.
D Rock
The only reason to stay w Vick is to avoid any locker room division.

Shady "douche bag" McCoy was quick to make that clear w his post game comments.

..................

Unrelated, did anyone see what was going on on the sidelines as the game ended? Or hear anything on WIP or other local sources?

Cameras showed Chip and McCoy in an intense, possibly heated conversation and a quick image of what looked like Foles trying to hold back a clearly angry Kelce.

Nobody's mentioned it. But I'm speculating it had something to do with all this.
xsv
QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 15 2013, 11:21 AM) *
The only reason to stay w Vick is to avoid any locker room division.

Shady "douche bag" McCoy was quick to make that clear w his post game comments.

..................

Unrelated, did anyone see what was going on on the sidelines as the game ended? Or hear anything on WIP or other local sources?

Cameras showed Chip and McCoy in an intense, possibly heated conversation and a quick image of what looked like Foles trying to hold back a clearly angry Kelce.

Nobody's mentioned it. But I'm speculating it had something to do with all this.



Yup, I saw that. Looked like Chip wasn't taking any shit. I doubt the confrontation was about Vick. More likely McCoy thought Kelce did something wrong.
D Rock
QUOTE (xsv @ Oct 15 2013, 03:24 PM) *
Yup, I saw that. Looked like Chip wasn't taking any shit. I doubt the confrontation was about Vick. More likely McCoy thought Kelce did something wrong.

I was thinking, based on douchey mccoys post game comments that were clearly defensive regarding Vick, that Kelce may have said something along the lines of "there's a new qb in town."

Obviously pure speculation on my part. I can't imagine what shady would be upset about from Kelce on field. They had a solid day.
xsv
QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 15 2013, 11:29 AM) *
I was thinking, based on douchey mccoys post game comments that were clearly defensive regarding Vick, that Kelce may have said something along the lines of "there's a new qb in town."

Obviously pure speculation on my part. I can't imagine what shady would be upset about from Kelce on field. They had a solid day.


I think that came after a sack on 3rd down.
Jax
I did notice the heated discussion. Was curious about it also.

As far as McCoy goes, what a shame. He reminds me of TO. Why can't someone pull him aside and say, LeSean, people want to like you, that could be worth millions so don't make it so hard for people to like you. For crying out loud you are the best RB in the NFL and one of the most despised players in the league. Idiot!
Jax
QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 15 2013, 11:21 AM) *
The only reason to stay w Vick is to avoid any locker room division.

Shady "douche bag" McCoy was quick to make that clear w his post game comments.

..................

Unrelated, did anyone see what was going on on the sidelines as the game ended? Or hear anything on WIP or other local sources?

Cameras showed Chip and McCoy in an intense, possibly heated conversation and a quick image of what looked like Foles trying to hold back a clearly angry Kelce.

Nobody's mentioned it. But I'm speculating it had something to do with all this.


I'm sure it had nothing to do with Vick. I don't think McCoy would be racist like that Riley Cooper guy... (insert your favorite goofy emoticon here)
canadianeagle
Whether Foles is the real deal or simply the beneficiary of playing winless teams is irrelevant. He deserves to start against the cowgirls. The more he plays the more we'll know the answer to this question.

IMHO he has shown more to the side of being a franchise QB than being a career back-up.
Dr. Claw
QUOTE (Zero @ Oct 15 2013, 06:48 AM) *
I don't like QB controversies and I agree that Vick should probably return to the starter until he buries himself. That said, can Vick improve as a player? Personally, I don't think so. He may be able to limit his mistakes but I think his days of getting better are gone. Vick is too thoroughly programmed to change.

On the other hand, Foles is still learning. I've compared him to Feeley but he's apparently a good student and should have the room to learn and improve if he's coached and plays as the starter. That doesn't mean he's the answer to the Eagles' QB needs, but he's still an unknown.

Next year is supposed to be a banner year for QBs. At some point the Eagles need to know if they have to draft one. Do practices and limited game exposure give them enough information to know if Foles or even Barkley can be the player they need at QB? They need play makers on defense, it would be nice if they could avoid using a pick on a QB next year.


I don't think the Eagles QB of the future is currently on this roster.

As said elsewhere, all the talk about Foles being the franchise QB is going to be hilarious to look back on once Chip has his guy in there.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (canadianeagle @ Oct 15 2013, 12:21 PM) *
Whether Foles is the real deal or simply the beneficiary of playing winless teams is irrelevant. He deserves to start against the cowgirls. The more he plays the more we'll know the answer to this question.

Or, the less he plays, the less bad film other teams will have to see that he's not their future QB of the future.

devil03.gif

"Why yes, Jacksonville, we'll take your #2 pick for Nick Foles."
Dreagon
Vick is getting up in years, and Foles isn't really Kelly's type of QB. I see a possible off season trade, and Kelly going for a QB that's more his style in the upcoming draft.
Jax
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 15 2013, 02:23 PM) *
Or, the less he plays, the less bad film other teams will have to see that he's not their future QB of the future.

devil03.gif

"Why yes, Jacksonville, we'll take your #2 pick for Nick Foles."

They won't do that. There are a handful of QB's the Jags can take just by dropping back a few picks and gaining a pick at the same time.
Eyrie
Our QB of the future is either a much improved Foles or else not yet on this roster.

It won't be Vick simply because of his age and, whilst I like Foles and think he can do a good job for us, I don't think he will become the elite QB that is needed if we are to win a SuperBowl.
JeeQ


Johnny Football
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (JeeQ @ Oct 15 2013, 02:21 PM) *
Johnny Football

Yes, please.
canadianeagle
I'm not saying whether he is or isn't a franchise QB but to say he is not based on the sample size is a bit pre-mature. I am only suggesting he get the opportunity to see what he can do with a decent o-line against some good teams.

I would rather spend a high pick on a defensive player than trade the farm to get into the top 5 next year and draft a QB.
D Rock
QUOTE (JeeQ @ Oct 15 2013, 07:21 PM) *
Johnny Football

Hell to the NO!!!
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 15 2013, 03:12 PM) *
Hell to the NO!!!

You're crazy. The guy is one of the most absurd matchup problems of all time. He has everything that it would take to be successful in Chip's offense.

He's fast, accurate, creative and has insane football smarts.

Who gives a shit if he likes to party and bang Texas co-eds? Can you blame him?
Dreagon
QUOTE (JeeQ @ Oct 15 2013, 02:21 PM) *


Johnny Football


Yeowtch. I gotta admit, as the fan of an "enemy team", that would be a scary sight.
bwc2112
Bullshit be Bullshit,
The numbers talk, Foles has proven.
Nick is a keeper.
Zero
QUOTE (canadianeagle @ Oct 15 2013, 01:21 PM) *
... or simply the beneficiary of playing winless teams is irrelevant...

The thing is, Tampa has a top ten defense and Foles didn't play against their offense, he played against a very good defense.
Zero
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Oct 15 2013, 03:04 PM) *
Our QB of the future is either a much improved Foles or else not yet on this roster.

It won't be Vick simply because of his age and, whilst I like Foles and think he can do a good job for us, I don't think he will become the elite QB that is needed if we are to win a SuperBowl.
You mean like Trent Dilfer, Jim McMahon, Doug Williams or Mark Rypien?
Phits
QUOTE (Zero @ Oct 15 2013, 08:06 PM) *
You mean like Trent Dilfer, Jim McMahon, Doug Williams or Mark Rypien?

we don't have 1/10 of the defensive prowess of any of those teams.
Phits
QUOTE (Zero @ Oct 15 2013, 07:57 PM) *
The thing is, Tampa has a top ten defense and Foles didn't play against their offense, he played against a very good defense.

He played against a team on the verge of revolting against their head coach.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Zero @ Oct 15 2013, 07:06 PM) *
You mean like Trent Dilfer, Jim McMahon, Doug Williams or Mark Rypien?

I'd also note that the guys you're referencing haven't been in the league for quite some time. It's a different game.
D Rock
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 15 2013, 08:32 PM) *
You're crazy. The guy is one of the most absurd matchup problems of all time. He has everything that it would take to be successful in Chip's offense.

He's fast, accurate, creative and has insane football smarts.

Who gives a shit if he likes to party and bang Texas co-eds? Can you blame him?

Yeah. And geno smith is goin to the hall of fame.
D Rock
QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 16 2013, 12:16 AM) *
He played against a team on the verge of revolting against their head coach.

That held Brady and Brees in check. Hadn't allowed more than 17 points all year and was #4 in the league.
D Rock
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 16 2013, 12:33 AM) *
I'd also note that the guys you're referencing haven't been in the league for quite some time. It's a different game.

You're right. It was different then. But now it's different again w chippa in town. We don't need elite qb in this offense. We need what I've been clamoring for for over a decade. Consistently good. NOT occasionally elite.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 15 2013, 09:05 PM) *
You're right. It was different then. But now it's different again w chippa in town. We don't need elite qb in this offense.

I think this is true. As I've said before, the offense is extremely QB friendly. We can have success without having an elite QB.

But...

QUOTE
We need what I've been clamoring for for over a decade. Consistently good. NOT occasionally elite.

You're confusing inconsistent with occassionally elite. The elite guys are consistenly elite. If we were able to get the perfect fit for this offense, a guy like Manziel or Mariotta...then we would be consistently putting up huge offensive numbers.

That type of offensive success would put natural pressure on the opposing team. Their mistakes would be highlighted and we could get away with not having a shutdown defense.

Since 2006, I've wanted someone who is more consistent than Donnie or Vick have proven to be. That's the most important thing that can happen to win 4 straight games in January and February. But I don't want consistently good. I want consistently great. Until we have that, I'm not going to stop looking or clamoring for it.





mcnabbulous
QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 15 2013, 09:01 PM) *
Yeah. And geno smith is goin to the hall of fame.

When did I ever say that? I simply said he was deserving of a first round pick. Given his 3 fourth quarter comebacks this season, I'd say I'm still feeling good about those opinions.

Not sure what any of that has to do with Johnny Football, the guy who put up 562 yards of offense by himself against Alabama.



D Rock
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 16 2013, 02:14 AM) *
I think this is true. As I've said before, the offense is extremely QB friendly. We can have success without having an elite QB.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 16 2013, 02:14 AM) *
You're confusing inconsistent with occassionally elite. The elite guys are consistenly elite. If we were able to get the perfect fit for this offense, a guy like Manziel or Mariotta...then we would be consistently putting up huge offensive numbers.


We're already putting up "huge offensive numbers."

I'm not confused about anything. You're contradicting yourself here, so it would seem you're the one confused, my friend.

The type of QB you're describing is a rare commodity. Indeed, there are currently 2 or 3 of them in the league today at most. For every Manning and Rogers, there are a dozen Akilis, Leafs, Leinart, and Cars.

You say the d is going to take a couple seasons to fix and that may (or may not) be true. It gets more and more true with each pick not spent on a play maker on defense.

Considering we're already putting up record offensive numbers in a revolutionary system that you yourself say doesn't require elite quarterbacking, why would you forego fixing that which is broken to take a very long shot at improving what's already working to a record setting degree?

It'd be great to have one of these rare breed QBs. But it would be purely a luxury and we'd STILL need to fix a defense that's pretty awful on all 3 levels.
Zero
This is all argument for seeing how Foles can perform on an ongoing basis. He's done well with limited exposure, but how will he do when the opposition gets a handle on his weaknesses? We know what Vick has and because of his age (at least) he isn't the future for the Eagles. Who is?

For those of us who want to win now, who is the best option? If Foles can continue to ring up W's isn't he a better choice than Vick regardless of whether Vick can also win? That's not intended to say that Foles IS the future but until he starts consistently we'll never know. But the original question was: will the coaches know if he doesn't play?
Dr. Claw
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 15 2013, 03:27 PM) *
Yes, please.


I think he's the 2nd QB taken in the draft. I wouldn't be mad with him in an Eagles #2 (as I know he can play Chip Ball)... but the Jags, Bucs, and Browns are definitely picking ahead of the Eagles. Unless any of those teams has anyone else earmarked as their QB... I don't see him getting past Cleveland. Or even Minnesota if they decide to pass on keeping Josh Freeman.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 15 2013, 11:57 PM) *
We're already putting up "huge offensive numbers."

Not Broncos huge. Why settle?

QUOTE
The type of QB you're describing is a rare commodity. Indeed, there are currently 2 or 3 of them in the league today at most. For every Manning and Rogers, there are a dozen Akilis, Leafs, Leinart, and Cars.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't be striving to acquire the Manning and Rodgers of the world. The best way to win a championship is to consistently put yourself in position to play for one. The best way to do that is by having an elite QB.

QUOTE
You say the d is going to take a couple seasons to fix and that may (or may not) be true. It gets more and more true with each pick not spent on a play maker on defense.

We should be drafting the best available player (of the appropriate valued position.) If that player happens to be a defensive playmaker, so be it. If it's a Marcus Mariotta or Johnny Manziel, I want them.

QUOTE
Considering we're already putting up record offensive numbers in a revolutionary system that you yourself say doesn't require elite quarterbacking, why would you forego fixing that which is broken to take a very long shot at improving what's already working to a record setting degree?

What I said above. QB is the most important position on the field. It's also the most valuable.

QUOTE
It'd be great to have one of these rare breed QBs. But it would be purely a luxury and we'd STILL need to fix a defense that's pretty awful on all 3 levels.

Having an elite QB is never a luxury. That's why they're elite.
mcnabbulous
dupe
Eyrie
I'd agree with mcnabbulous here that if we get the chance at an elite QB, then we need to take it.

However in 1999 five teams took what they expected to be elite QBs, including the first three overall picks. Only one of the five came close to being elite - McNabb and as even as a fan of his I readily concede that he didn't quite make it. Such low odds explain why I'm willing to settle for consistency from a very good QB and have the elite talent elsewhere on the roster.
samaroo
QUOTE (JeeQ @ Oct 15 2013, 02:21 PM) *


Johnny Football


You think Barkley's gonna give up his jersey number to a rookie?!? biggrin.gif
HobbEs
Is Marcus Mariotta coming out this year? He would have to be in the conversation with Johnny Football.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (HobbEs @ Oct 17 2013, 08:14 AM) *
Is Marcus Mariotta coming out this year? He would have to be in the conversation with Johnny Football.

Agreed. Not as much upside, but offers a hell of a lot. Plus the consistency.

Watching highlights of the guy, I'm amazed by how fast he is.

He's a redshirt sophomore, so he could come out. I've seen him listed as the #2 QB prospect behind Bridgewater.
Bocadelphia Eagles John
QB of the FUTURE ?

Who the f**k knows ? He might not even be on our roster at this time ...

The furthest ahead I can see is ... Sunday. And for that game we have Foles. After that , no one can say for sure. Or for those who DO say, it's opinion.

GOOOOOOOOOOO EAGLES !!!!!
Dr. Claw
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 17 2013, 11:45 AM) *
Agreed. Not as much upside, but offers a hell of a lot. Plus the consistency.

Watching highlights of the guy, I'm amazed by how fast he is.

He's a redshirt sophomore, so he could come out. I've seen him listed as the #2 QB prospect behind Bridgewater.


And he's 6'4. Which isn't a guarantee to be good, but insulation from the people stuck on "Flacco" types as QB picks
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (Dr. Claw @ Oct 18 2013, 11:21 AM) *
And he's 6'4. Which isn't a guarantee to be good, but insulation from the people stuck on "Flacco" types as QB picks


Isn't he 6'6"?
Dr. Claw
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Oct 18 2013, 02:35 PM) *
Isn't he 6'6"?


I think Flacco is, Mariota is 6'4 (i.e. taller than Vick)
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