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nephillymike
Anyone who has seen the game film clips this last week should have seen various clips of the difference between how a the Giants specifically defended Vick vs. Foles.

Most of the discussion was focussed on how the spy LB was in there spying Vick and therefore not available to stop the run and it helped lead to huge holes for the run game.

They they showed how when Foles went in, the LB no longer was spying (no need to spy paint dry speed!!) and he was free to blitz or drop back in coverage, which they showed him doing on the tape.

The film review was intended to show how that lead to run problems when Foles was in there b/c they LB didn't spy anymore.

Fair enough, it makes sense. And we saw the impact it had on the run game.


But riddle me this Batman:

If there was a spy out of coverage for that game, shouldn't that have made one less pass defender and more open receivers? Conversely, shouldn't the extra guy in coverage have meant more covered receivers for Foles?

Did Foles find the open receivers better even though there was one more guy and coverage? Did Vick have more trouble finding the open guys despite one less guy in coverage??

Hmmmmmmmmm
D Rock
Links?

The all 22 breakdowns I read, and Kelce's own judgement of the situation was that the only difference between what the Giants did and what other teams have done is have the nose tackle run what Kelce called a "nut stunt" where the nose tackle lined up on 1 A gap then crossed his face and attacked the other A gap after the snap. He said this didn't change at all when Foles came in and that he simply struggled with it as an individual.

In fact, one of the all 22s showed that the defensive end was still honoring Foles' potentially keeping the ball on the read option. Not that doing so made much sense, but the tape clearly shows it to be true.
nephillymike
QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 9 2013, 06:41 PM) *
Links?

The all 22 breakdowns I read, and Kelce's own judgement of the situation was that the only difference between what the Giants did and what other teams have done is have the nose tackle run what Kelce called a "nut stunt" where the nose tackle lined up on 1 A gap then crossed his face and attacked the other A gap after the snap. He said this didn't change at all when Foles came in and that he simply struggled with it as an individual.

In fact, one of the all 22s showed that the defensive end was still honoring Foles' potentially keeping the ball on the read option. Not that doing so made much sense, but the tape clearly shows it to be true.


I saw it on Eagles Extra and heard one of the guys on 975 talking about it. Can you get Eagles extra?
koolaidluke
QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 9 2013, 07:41 PM) *
In fact, one of the all 22s showed that the defensive end was still honoring Foles' potentially keeping the ball on the read option. Not that doing so made much sense, but the tape clearly shows it to be true.


On the read option, yes, but nephy was talking about the way the Giants were pulling a guy out of coverage to spy when Vick dropped back to pass.


xsv
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 9 2013, 03:32 PM) *
Did Foles find the open receivers better even though there was one more guy and coverage? Did Vick have more trouble finding the open guys despite one less guy in coverage??


No one's talking about it because, I think, because it's fairly obvious that Foles reads the field, and finds open receivers better. Vick brings to the table, like arm strength, buying time, running ability, that make up the difference (and then some).



Jax
Vick brings the running element better. I think this talk of arm strength being a big advantage is overplayed. Foles can make the throws he needs to. He doesn't need to throw missiles because he is reading better.
mcnabbulous
Foles is a big guy, so I suspect he can throw a deep pass. He's just never proven the ability to do so in a game situation.

Vick's arm is on an elite level.
D Rock
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 10 2013, 02:08 PM) *
Foles is a big guy, so I suspect he can throw a deep pass. He's just never proven the ability to do so in a game situation.

Vick's arm is on an elite level.

Vicks arm is beyond elite from a strength point of view, but his accuracy is more ordinary. Foles arm strength is only questionable when compared to Vick. He's got plenty of arm for the nfl.

And I don't know what you look at when watching the games, but Foles has proven he can go deep. Not an issue at all to my eyes.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 10 2013, 09:36 AM) *
Vicks arm is beyond elite from a strength point of view, but his accuracy is more ordinary.

I'm just talking on the deep balls. Vick is fine in that regard.

QUOTE
Foles arm strength is only questionable when compared to Vick. He's got plenty of arm for the nfl.

And I don't know what you look at when watching the games, but Foles has proven he can go deep. Not an issue at all to my eyes.

There are actually articles about the subject. I'm not making this concern up. Like I said, I have no doubt he has the physical capacity to do it. He just hasn't proven himself regularly capable yet. He also, quite notably, didn't go down the field at all during the preseason.

Can Eagles' Nick Foles throw the deep ball?
xsv
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 10 2013, 11:52 AM) *
I'm just talking on the deep balls. Vick is fine in that regard.


Vick has never done much better, and since 2011, has been worse.

For example, from that same article, regarding 2012...

QUOTE
Foles has completed 8 of 22 passes (36.3 percent) that traveled beyond 20 yards this season..


QUOTE
For comparison, Michael Vick was 11 of 36 (30.5 percent)


Vick has shown the ability to be a little better, though. In 2010 he completed 41.5% and in 2011 he complete 41.4%. So, yes, in his prime, at his absolute best (which we're now a couple years removed from) he can be a little more effective than Foles was in 2012.... but we're only talking about 1 or 2 more passes completed PER SEASON.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (xsv @ Oct 10 2013, 11:36 AM) *
Vick has never done much better, and since 2011, has been worse.

I'm not talking about 20 yards down the field. I'm talking about balls that travel much further.

Foles career long pass is 46 yards (not sure how long that traveled in the air.)

His long this preseason was 29 yards and once again, that may have been on a run and pass. I remember there being a lot of talk about his lack of down the field throws.
xsv
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 10 2013, 12:48 PM) *
I'm not talking about 20 yards down the field. I'm talking about balls that travel much further.

Foles career long pass is 46 yards (not sure how long that traveled in the air.)

His long this preseason was 29 yards and once again, that may have been on a run and pass. I remember there being a lot of talk about his lack of down the field throws.


These are any passes that traveled at least 20 yards in the air. In includes all the passes you are talking about.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (xsv @ Oct 10 2013, 12:15 PM) *
These are any passes that traveled at least 20 yards in the air. In includes all the passes you are talking about.

Yes, but I don't care about his ability to throw the ball 20 yards. If he couldn't do that, he wouldn't be in the league. I'm talking about his ability to throw a truly deep ball. A fly route to Desean. 40+ yards in the air.

I can't find any breakdown on those types of stats, but I haven't seen Foles make those throws yet.
mcnabbulous
And for reference sake, this is a conversation from the board last year. It's a well documented discussion as it relates to Foles.

http://www.wingheads.com/index.php?showtop...418&hl=loft

I think Vick is a better deep passer, which is one of the strengths of our team (given Desean being our primary receiving weapon.)

Hopefully Foles can improve in that area, but he hasn't proven it yet. That's all I'm saying...
xsv
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 10 2013, 01:29 PM) *
And for reference sake, this is a conversation from the board last year. It's a well documented discussion as it relates to Foles.

http://www.wingheads.com/index.php?showtop...418&hl=loft

I think Vick is a better deep passer, which is one of the strengths of our team (given Desean being our primary receiving weapon.)

Hopefully Foles can improve in that area, but he hasn't proven it yet. That's all I'm saying...


And all I'm saying is that I haven't see anything to suggest Vick is much, if any, better. Sure, he's got a terrific arm, and can certainly throw the ball further. But I've seen very little evidence to suggest he does it with any more accuracy. He misses deep throws to wide open receivers with alarming regularity.


mcnabbulous
QUOTE (xsv @ Oct 10 2013, 12:33 PM) *
And all I'm saying is that I haven't see anything to suggest Vick is much, if any, better. Sure, he's got a terrific arm, and can certainly throw the ball further. But I've seen very little evidence to suggest he does it with any more accuracy. He misses deep throws to wide open receivers with alarming regularity.

We are clearly talking about different "deep balls." Vick attempts bombs. And statistically, you are going to miss on a lot of those. Foles doesn't even attempt them. Or when he has, they have been dramatically underthrown.

I'm exclusively talking about our ability to stretch the field with Desean. McNabb could do it, Vick can do it. Foles has not proven willing or able to do so thus far.

HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 10 2013, 01:29 PM) *
And for reference sake, this is a conversation from the board last year. It's a well documented discussion as it relates to Foles.


You need to get out more.....
nephillymike
20 yard passes are not worth mentioning as far as a deep analysis goes.

Deep ball to me is 35 + yds.

And flaws and all, up until the beginning of this year where he uncharacteristically missed three deep ones, IMO Mike Vick threw the best deep ball we've seen on the Eagles in a while. Better than McNabb. On par with Randall and Jaws and IMO those are some good rockets to be grouped with. Dude may have trouble seein gthe field at an elite level. May have some bad mechanics on occassion causing the ball to sail, but dude can air it out with the best of them.

Foles arm was advertised as strong out of college. He seems to have a lot of wobble and not great velocity, the two could present problems for the long ball. Maybe that's why we haven't seen much of it. He has an adequate enough arm, but remember last year he had a few long ones where the WR's had the guys beat by ten yards and they had to wait on the ball? I'm a little concerned. Nothing a few 35+ yd completions won't take care of.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 10 2013, 02:18 PM) *
20 yard passes are not worth mentioning as far as a deep analysis goes.

Deep ball to me is 35 + yds.

And flaws and all, up until the beginning of this year where he uncharacteristically missed three deep ones, IMO Mike Vick threw the best deep ball we've seen on the Eagles in a while. Better than McNabb. On par with Randall and Jaws and IMO those are some good rockets to be grouped with. Dude may have trouble seein gthe field at an elite level. May have some bad mechanics on occassion causing the ball to sail, but dude can air it out with the best of them.

Foles arm was advertised as strong out of college. He seems to have a lot of wobble and not great velocity, the two could present problems for the long ball. Maybe that's why we haven't seen much of it. He has an adequate enough arm, but remember last year he had a few long ones where the WR's had the guys beat by ten yards and they had to wait on the ball? I'm a little concerned. Nothing a few 35+ yd completions won't take care of.

You're one of the few things that keeps me sane around here.
Flying Dutchman
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 10 2013, 11:52 AM) *
I'm just talking on the deep balls. Vick is fine in that regard.

Can Eagles' Nick Foles throw the deep ball?

His problem is that he has never proven he can handle the short throws, leading he receiver. That's where Foles's size come into play. At 6'6" he is tall enough to see the field as Vick will never do, and has seemed to be able to very quickly evaluate his options. Now, as he get some time to practice and learn, we see him leading his targets and high-pointing or fading the ball to them as Vick has NEVER done. This kid deserves to get his time to learn. He may take his lumps but he is showing a lot of serious potential.
Rick
QUOTE (Flying Dutchman @ Oct 10 2013, 09:21 PM) *
His problem is that he has never proven he can handle the short throws, leading he receiver. That's where Foles's size come into play. At 6'6" he is tall enough to see the field as Vick will never do, and has seemed to be able to very quickly evaluate his options. Now, as he get some time to practice and learn, we see him leading his targets and high-pointing or fading the ball to them as Vick has NEVER done. This kid deserves to get his time to learn. He may take his lumps but he is showing a lot of serious potential.

Finally, a voice of reason. Everyone wants to knock this kid. It's his SECOND season! We really don't know how good/bad he will be. So far, he's done quite well with his limited experience playing with the big boys.

Can he do it for his career? I have no idea. But hard to knock him when you really don't know yet.
mcnabbulous
I don't think anyone has really knocked him. I'm personally not high on him as a viable long term starting QB option, but I think he is okay. He's also unproven.
Rick
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2013, 03:05 PM) *
I don't think anyone has really knocked him. I'm personally not high on him as a viable long term starting QB option, but I think he is okay. He's also unproven.

Actually, quite a few people have knocked him. I am not sure either way. Still haven't seen enough of him to get a good idea on whether he can do it for the long haul. He's really done quite well when you consider his experience level and the positions they've put him in (horrible offensive line last year).

I'm not totally sold on him just yet but I'm also not afraid of him when he gets behind center. I'm actually curious to see if he can be a big dog or not.
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