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koolaidluke
It's easy to let the emotions of a great win or a tough loss skew your judgment, so what I find helpful when analyzing a football team is to not think about wins and losses but instead think about points scored and points allowed.

Before the season I predicted 7-9 and I stayed with that even after the first two weeks because I saw nothing that would change my expectation on the points scored/allowed front: 24 for and 26 against.

There is no reason to be upset about last nights' game. The defense showed progress and while Vick was uneven, he didn't really play bad. The offense scored what should have been 20 points against one of the leagues best defenses. The defense repeatedly kept the Eagles in the game by clamping down on an extremely efficient red zone offense. The Eagles D also dominated on short yardage all night long despite the fact that they must have been very worn down playing on a short week after going so many snaps on Sunday.

The Eagles will have extra rest before going to Denver next week. I'm not going to predict a Eagles victory but both Broncos wins so far were against bad teams and the Eagles have a very real chance of knocking them off.
koolaidluke
p.s.: On TATE, AF is claiming that in Chip's offense it is more important to be able to complete short passes than to be able to run the ball.

AF can be such a moron. I can always count on him to spin every Eagles performance in a way that would make Spadaro blush.
iggleslover49
Your right. And when thinking about it this way you get to realizing that we just played 3 games in 11 days. Considering the type of hurry up football we play the offense had to have been gassed at least a little bit.
xsv
No way we win 7 games this year. I seriously doubt we'll win 6.

Vick played poorly, and was a major contributor to the loss. There is blame enough to go around, but this looked like the same old Vick I've come to hate. I'd rather Koy Detmer was the QB right now.

The good news is, we should end up with a top 5 pick in the draft.
HobbEs
At what point do we go with Foles or Barkley?

The offense is regressing, the defense is up and down and the HC is learning on the job. I know MV7 is better suited to run the Offense but at some point the young guys have to get game experience if they're in the plans for the future.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (HobbEs @ Sep 20 2013, 11:20 AM) *
At what point do we go with Foles or Barkley?

The offense is regressing, the defense is up and down and the HC is learning on the job. I know MV7 is better suited to run the Offense but at some point the young guys have to get game experience if they're in the plans for the future.

Regressing? After one bad game?

Vick threw for 400+ last week.
CT_Eagle
This team is not regressing. I think in order to regress you have to achieve some form of success first. Barely beating the skins on Monday did not set a high bar that this team can regress from.

We have all been down this road before. Vick has not been an elite QB since 2010. Why anyone expects him to be anything other than a turnover machine is beyond me.
xsv
QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Sep 20 2013, 12:37 PM) *
We have all been down this road before. Vick has not been an elite QB since 2010. Why anyone expects him to be anything other than a turnover machine is beyond me.


This.



mcnabbulous
For as much as you guys hate Andy, he fucking changed the expectations in this town. That's for damn sure.

Vick was third in the league in passing after the first 2 games. It was one bad game. He got zero help from his OL or his receiving core. Only one of his turnovers was egregious.

Can't we wait to see how he bounces back? Kansas City has a damn good defense. They didn't do anything that SD didn't try. They just simply had the horses to give our team fits.
xsv
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Sep 20 2013, 12:54 PM) *
For as much as you guys hate Andy, he fucking changed the expectations in this town. That's for damn sure.


If you had said McNabb instead of Andy, I would have agreed.


mcnabbulous
QUOTE (xsv @ Sep 20 2013, 12:00 PM) *
If you had said McNabb instead of Andy, I would have agreed.

They're essentially synonymous at this point.
xsv
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Sep 20 2013, 01:02 PM) *
They're essentially synonymous at this point.


I don't have anything against Andy. He's a good coach, but it was definitely time for him to go. I'm glad we have someone different coaching now. I'm still optimistic that Kelly can turn this around, just not this year.

With McNabb, it's a little different. I wish we had someone on the team that could play as well as he did, even in his crappy years.


D Rock
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Sep 20 2013, 05:33 PM) *
Regressing? After one bad game?

Vick threw for 400+ last week.

It was one bad game. I'll afford him another quarter dozen before making a switch. If last nights defense had showed up when the bolts were in town, that'd been a 'W' for us too.

One thing I'm not buying however is that KC is a good team. Fuck them. I think Vick had a bad game because Andy was on the other sideline. At least that's my hope. The other answer is that he's regressed back to that which he is, a human turn over machine. Nope. It's GOTTA be that Andy simply got in his head. Not in any insidious way. His players truly dig the guy. I think that Vick just wanted to show the big guy all the great things he and this new offense could do and pressed all night long. After the early pick 6 he started pressing.
D Rock
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Sep 20 2013, 06:02 PM) *
They're essentially synonymous at this point.

Absolutely.
koolaidluke
QUOTE (xsv @ Sep 20 2013, 01:00 PM) *
If you had said McNabb instead of Andy, I would have agreed.


Andy built the program. Not McNabb. Andy won with Garcia, Feeley and Vick.
HobbEs
QUOTE
Regressing? After one bad game?

Vick threw for 400+ last week.


Vick throwing for 400 is fool's gold. What's his 3rd down completion percentage over the last few weeks? What about the inability to sustain drives or make plays in key situations?

The O line was supposed to be the strength of this team. How many sacks have they given up since week 1? How many pressures and/or hits on Vick?

Who else in the passing game has produced other than DeShaun? How many drops do Cooper and Casey have? Especially in key situations?

For the 1st half of the Washington game we saw the Vick of 2010. Since then it's been a gradual return to the Vick of last year. The passing numbers don't tell the whole story.
xsv
QUOTE (koolaidluke @ Sep 20 2013, 01:55 PM) *
Andy built the program. Not McNabb. Andy won with Garcia, Feeley and Vick.


The discussion was about QB Play, not building a program.

I'd pick Andy Reid over Mike Vick for building a football program, any day of the week.

And I'd pick Mike Vick over Andy Reid to play QB on my team, any day of the week. (although I understand Andy used to have a heck of an arm)

Nice diversion tactic, though. ;-)
koolaidluke
He threw pretty well last night. He threw 2 picks but he's that kind of QB.

He's a middle of the road QB. Some middle of the road QBs are like Alex Smith who don't make mistakes but also make no plays. On the other end of the spectrum their are guys like Vick who make too many mistakes but make lots of great plays.

Vick wasn't the problem last year and he isn't the problem this year. He's not a franchise QB but he's good enough to win with.
koolaidluke
okay. sorry I misunderstood. I made a mistake for once in my life.
Eyrie
QUOTE (HobbEs @ Sep 20 2013, 05:20 PM) *
At what point do we go with Foles or Barkley?

The offense is regressing, the defense is up and down and the HC is learning on the job. I know MV7 is better suited to run the Offense but at some point the young guys have to get game experience if they're in the plans for the future.

I'd give Vick two to three more games. If he plays in those like he did last night then he gets benched and Foles gets three or four games to prove himself. If he fails, then we finish the season seeing what Barkley can do.

But once we make the decision to bench Vick there is no going back to him and the replacement has to be given time to settle in rather than being pulled for a bad first game.
Phits
Let's see how these shit heads respond with 10 days between games. I am hoping the extended break brings back some of the steam for this offense. The quickness from week 1 has disappeared. In order for Chip's system to work, you need to keep pushing the envelope. We haven't seen that in the 2 losses


*I hate losing Thursday games.....it's such a long wait for an opportunity at redemption...it almost feels like a bye week
Rick
Hold on a second, someone thinks the Eagles have a realistic shot at beating Denver!!?? Really!!?? And what, exactly, gives you the idea this is possible (other than the whole, "On any given Sunday," stuff)?

Peyton will pick this defense apart. If Vick plays as badly as he did last night--and for anyone to say anything other than he sucked last night is 100% delusional--they will get blown out and Peyton may thrown 10 TDs.

I see no way the Eagles win this game or even stay close enough to have a shot at winning. Yes, we're talking on paper and anything can (conceivably) happen but, realistically, they have no shot in hell at winning this game. If we lose and lose by less than 14 points, I'll be surprised. The only way that could happen is if Peyton shits the bed (not likely) and Vick does not shit the bed (can't say totally likely but not totally unlikely either).
JeeQ
1. I think we can beat the Broncos because this is the NFL and anything can happen.

2. If we do win, some of you will be upset about it because you hate Vick more than you love the Eagles

3. Especially if he has a better game than Peyton
Eyrie
QUOTE (JeeQ @ Sep 21 2013, 02:09 AM) *
1. I think we can beat the Broncos because this is the NFL and anything can happen.

2. If we do win, some of you will be upset about it because you hate Vick more than you love the Eagles

3. Especially if he has a better game than Peyton

1. I wouldn't risk the price of a beer on that, let alone the outcome of the game.

2. We're all Eagles fans here, and we're entitled to our doubts about individual players. Why should Vick be immune from legitimate criticism? The questions being raised concern his actual game performances and are not speculative.

3. I wouldn't risk the price of a beer on that, let alone the outcome of the game.
koolaidluke
First of all, I don't think anybody hates Vick or is rooting against him. There are a lot of people who are sick of him and ready to move on (for the record, I'm not one of those, I think he is a good QB although I don't know how much mileage he has left) and are frustrated after a tough loss.

I think the Eagles could beat the Broncos because I'm not convinced that the Broncos are very good. They lit up two bad defenses (that sounds familiar) but have been "bleh" on defense. The Eagles will be well rested and looking to bounce back after a loss.
Zero
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Sep 20 2013, 12:54 PM) *
For as much as you guys hate Andy, he fucking changed the expectations in this town. That's for damn sure.

Vick was third in the league in passing after the first 2 games. It was one bad game. He got zero help from his OL or his receiving core. Only one of his turnovers was egregious.

Can't we wait to see how he bounces back? Kansas City has a damn good defense. They didn't do anything that SD didn't try. They just simply had the horses to give our team fits.

This fits precisely into Vick's history. He has amazing games, shows the world that his talent is incomparable but then he invariably reverts to his tendency to try to do too much when things are going badly. Forcing passes, holding the ball too long looking for the big play and missing blitzes. Vick's unbelievable talent is both his crown and his albatross.
Zero
QUOTE (koolaidluke @ Sep 20 2013, 10:31 AM) *
p.s.: On TATE, AF is claiming that in Chip's offense it is more important to be able to complete short passes than to be able to run the ball.

AF can be such a moron. I can always count on him to spin every Eagles performance in a way that would make Spadaro blush.

First of all, nice opening post. Reasonable and on target, IMO.

Why are you fixated on AF?
nephillymike
QUOTE (Zero @ Sep 21 2013, 05:56 AM) *
This fits precisely into Vick's history. He has amazing games, shows the world that his talent is incomparable but then he invariably reverts to his tendency to try to do too much when things are going badly. Forcing passes, holding the ball too long looking for the big play and missing blitzes. Vick's unbelievable talent is both his crown and his albatross.


FWIW, someone posted info about a month ago that Vick has actually had fewer "bad" games than most of the top 15 starting QB's in the league. Maybe someone knows the thread and can reference it.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Zero @ Sep 21 2013, 06:01 AM) *
First of all, nice opening post. Reasonable and on target, IMO.

Why are you fixated on AF?



Let me guess, AF said it was Modrak's fault!!

rolleyes.gif
xsv
QUOTE (koolaidluke @ Sep 21 2013, 06:23 AM) *
First of all, I don't think anybody hates Vick or is rooting against him. There are a lot of people who are sick of him and ready to move on (for the record, I'm not one of those, I think he is a good QB although I don't know how much mileage he has left) and are frustrated after a tough loss.

I think the Eagles could beat the Broncos because I'm not convinced that the Broncos are very good. They lit up two bad defenses (that sounds familiar) but have been "bleh" on defense. The Eagles will be well rested and looking to bounce back after a loss.


I hate Vick. I root for him, though, not against him.

I am harder on him than most people, but I have never once wanted him to not do well.

He's got 0% chance of beating the Broncos, tho. Just like we have 0% chance of winning the division this year, and a 0% chance of making the playoffs.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Sep 21 2013, 06:46 AM) *
FWIW, someone posted info about a month ago that Vick has actually had fewer "bad" games than most of the top 15 starting QB's in the league. Maybe someone knows the thread and can reference it.


I posted it. Was actually looking for it just because I want to get back to that website and can't remember the name. Let me know if you find it smile.gif
mcnabbulous
Here you go, Mikey:
http://www.wingheads.com/index.php?showtopic=72512
Rick
QUOTE (JeeQ @ Sep 20 2013, 09:09 PM) *
1. I think we can beat the Broncos because this is the NFL and anything can happen.

2. If we do win, some of you will be upset about it because you hate Vick more than you love the Eagles

3. Especially if he has a better game than Peyton

And this is my point. You're saying they can beat them because it's the NFL, not because you truly believe it's a possibility.
Rick
QUOTE (koolaidluke @ Sep 21 2013, 06:23 AM) *
First of all, I don't think anybody hates Vick or is rooting against him. There are a lot of people who are sick of him and ready to move on (for the record, I'm not one of those, I think he is a good QB although I don't know how much mileage he has left) and are frustrated after a tough loss.

I think the Eagles could beat the Broncos because I'm not convinced that the Broncos are very good. They lit up two bad defenses (that sounds familiar) but have been "bleh" on defense. The Eagles will be well rested and looking to bounce back after a loss.

Yes but our defense isn't very good either. And that's what I'm saying. Are they improved from last week? Slightly but we're still not very good.
koolaidluke
QUOTE (Zero @ Sep 21 2013, 07:01 AM) *
First of all, nice opening post. Reasonable and on target, IMO.

Why are you fixated on AF?


I don't know if I'm fixated on him but its just that up until last year I regularly read his posts because I appreciated the way he actually looked at the tape. But now they are plenty of other guys who do real analysis too so I mainly just read him out of habit and sometimes he says things that are so incredibly asinine that I need to share them with the board.

There is a difference between some moron saying something ridiculous and somebody as intelligent and thoughtful as AF saying things that no reasonable person could seriously believe.

nephy: didn't blame anybody actually except Vick. He has turned on Vick hard.
koolaidluke
QUOTE (Rick @ Sep 21 2013, 06:22 PM) *
Yes but our defense isn't very good either. And that's what I'm saying. Are they improved from last week? Slightly but we're still not very good.


The Eagles do not allow big plays down the field. They got blind sided by some wr screens but we know better than anybody how Andy will occasionally put a play or formation out of his hat that a D will have no answer for. They made Rivers play a perfect game.

I strongly doubt Manning scores more than 30 points against this defense. Lighting up the Ravens and Giants really doesn't mean that much.
koolaidluke
QUOTE (xsv @ Sep 21 2013, 09:05 AM) *
I hate Vick. I root for him, though, not against him.


What McNabb's 3 and outs were to me Vick's turnovers are to some.

I really don't think you are going to do much better at QB than Vick, but if you hate the way Vick plays the game then of course you are going to want to see somebody else. Maybe even ANYBODY else. That's how I felt about Donovan for sure.
TGryn
Don't agree that the Chiefs' defense is all that good, as stated at least twice in this thread. They were 25th in points given up last season, 20th in yards allowed, and 31st in turnovers created. Those numbers look considerably better so far this year, but at least some of that is because they faced the league's worst offense (Jaguars) in week one. Lets see where they are come midseason before declaring their problems from last year cured on D.
koolaidluke
Those bad numbers last year were because of coaching problems. Romeo Crennel is a Rich Kotite level coach.

The Cowboys and Eagles will both end the season as top 15 offenses and the Chiefs held them to under 20.
xsv
QUOTE (koolaidluke @ Sep 21 2013, 07:36 PM) *
What McNabb's 3 and outs were to me Vick's turnovers are to some.


There's at least 42 yards difference between a 3 and out and a turnover.
xsv
QUOTE (koolaidluke @ Sep 22 2013, 10:04 AM) *
Those bad numbers last year were because of coaching problems. Romeo Crennel is a Rich Kotite level coach.

The Cowboys and Eagles will both end the season as top 15 offenses and the Chiefs held them to under 20.


LOL@ "top 15"

You mean average?
Reality Fan
QUOTE (TGryn @ Sep 21 2013, 10:20 PM) *
Don't agree that the Chiefs' defense is all that good, as stated at least twice in this thread. They were 25th in points given up last season, 20th in yards allowed, and 31st in turnovers created. Those numbers look considerably better so far this year, but at least some of that is because they faced the league's worst offense (Jaguars) in week one. Lets see where they are come midseason before declaring their problems from last year cured on D.



they have a bunch of pro bowlers on D.....they are very good there....I said it before the season started....they will do well...they had a lot of injuries last year and a bad coach....that is no longer the case in either department....
koolaidluke
QUOTE (xsv @ Sep 22 2013, 12:21 PM) *
LOL@ "top 15"

You mean average?



Yeah. Top 15 I guess would be at worst a little above average. If you can keep two above average offenses below 20 points that's pretty good.

It's not like I am comparing the Chiefs to the 2000 Ravens or anything.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (koolaidluke @ Sep 22 2013, 11:50 AM) *
Yeah. Top 15 I guess would be at worst a little above average. If you can keep two above average offenses below 20 points that's pretty good.

It's not like I am comparing the Chiefs to the 2000 Ravens or anything.

I'm with KAL here (this is becoming a trend.)

Last year, the Cowboys were the 15th highest scoring offense and averaged 23.5 points per game.

If you can consistently hold teams under 20 points per game these days, you're going to win lots of games.
JeeQ
QUOTE (Rick @ Sep 21 2013, 03:21 PM) *
And this is my point. You're saying they can beat them because it's the NFL, not because you truly believe it's a possibility.


Well the allow me to clear that up for you. I truly believe it's a possibility.

Not just because that's my opinion, but because of facts, numbers, and recent history...

Peyton Manning Vs Vick & The Eagles - November 10th, 2010 - Eagles Win 26 -24

The last time Peyton Manning faced Michael Vick and the Eagles he lost. Not only that he was out played by Michael Vick... and you can bet the price of beer on that.

I swear some of you aren't even fans. If I took the time to take a look back I imagine you'd be the same one's saying we wouldn't beat him then either. So I'd suggest you start getting your excuses ready just in case.
Pbfan
3 games is not a good sample. lets get 6 games before we start saying where this team is. We definitely have seen trends of weakness, like the secondary, but overall we still don't know where this team is at. Especially concerning Vick, it was WAAYY to early to write him off. The fact is he's played well overall this season.
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