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D Rock
Was Dandy Andy in the booth? We can't escape utter clock management stupidity to save our lives. I seriously thought that keystone cops bullshit went away with the Walrus. Coo coo cachoo mother fucker. We still can't manage a simple damn game clock.

FUCK!!!!
mcnabbulous
"'In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death, taxes, and NFL fanbases bitching about their coach's ability to manage the clock." - Benjamin Franklin


D Rock
Are you actually suggesting those time outs made ANY sense on ANY planet?

We're all luvin Chippah, but that was some of the most retarded shit I've ever seen from an eagles sideline.
HOUSEoPAIN
It's Chip's 2nd NFL game, so I'll give him a pass, but for a second I thought the Walrus had slipped his chart into Chip's folder.
D Rock
I seriously can't figure out wtf he could have been thinking. There is no justification. It gives me great cause for concern. So too his seeming penchant for going "full retard" when it comes to challenges. Weird.
TGryn
OK, say they don't use the timeouts: SD runs the clock down to 2 seconds, kicks the field goal, game over. At least with the timeouts, they got a kickoff and one play. It was a long shot, but at least its a shot. Plus maybe you get a strip of the ball on those extra plays you force SD to run.

Dierdorf was making a big deal of it, but it was really the smarter call. Not like those saved timeouts are going to do you any good as the ball is sailing through the uprights as time expires.
Chip Kelly
QUOTE (TGryn @ Sep 15 2013, 08:39 PM) *
OK, say they don't use the timeouts: SD runs the clock down to 0:02 seconds, kicks the field goal, game over. At least with the timeouts, they got a kickoff and one play. It was a long shot, but at least its a shot. Plus maybe you get a strip of the ball on those extra plays you force SD to run.

Dierdorf was making a big deal of it, but it was really the smarter call. Not like those timeouts are going to do you any good as the ball is sailing through the uprights as time expires.


I was overreacting to it after the game, too. But once I took some time to think it over, taking the timeouts was the right move.
Jax
I can't figure it out either. Just stupid. On a similar note, he doesn't appear to be very judicious with his Replay Challenges either.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (D Rock @ Sep 15 2013, 08:21 PM) *
Are you actually suggesting those time outs made ANY sense on ANY planet?

We're all luvin Chippah, but that was some of the most retarded shit I've ever seen from an eagles sideline.


I really don't have an opinion on it one way or another, to be honest. My point is that we would be bitching about these things regardless of who is on the sideline. Which is what I've been saying for the past decade.
Every fanbase does it.
It's not why we lost the game. Dude was making that field goal from 46 or 49.
D Rock
QUOTE (TGryn @ Sep 16 2013, 01:39 AM) *
OK, say they don't use the timeouts: SD runs the clock down to 2 seconds, kicks the field goal, game over. At least with the timeouts, they got a kickoff and one play. It was a long shot, but at least its a shot. Plus maybe you get a strip of the ball on those extra plays you force SD to run.

Dierdorf was making a big deal of it, but it was really the smarter call. Not like those saved timeouts are going to do you any good as the ball is sailing through the uprights as time expires.

It was a 49 yarder from the 31 1/2 yard line. The timeouts allowed them to run 2 more plays and get 2 1/2 yards closer.

Smarter call, my ass.
JeeQ
Until We...

1. ) Win A Coach's Challenge

2.) Manage Not To Waste Our Timeouts

3.) Avoid Incredibly Stupid Game-Costing Penalties

I'm officially calling it The Andy Reid Curse. Getting done in by mental mistakes is inexcusable
Rick
QUOTE (D Rock @ Sep 15 2013, 10:57 PM) *
It was a 49 yarder from the 31 1/2 yard line. The timeouts allowed them to run 2 more plays and get 2 1/2 yards closer.

Smarter call, my ass.

Absolutely was the smarter call. Allowed them to run 2 more plays where anything can happen--bad snap, mishandled ball in some way, fumble, etc. And it allowed us to take a kickoff. Again, anything could happen. Long shot? Absolutely. Likely something bad would happen in our favor? Absolutely NOT. But you can rest assured, they would have run the clock down to where the only time left was for them to kick the ball and we wouldn't get a chance no matter what.

Honestly, I'm shocked anyone would think that wasn't the RIGHT thing to do. You pretty much knew they weren't going to put the ball in the air so, unless the RB could get through the 99 guys we had in the box, there wouldn't be a big play. 2 1/2 yards doesn't mean a whole lot to a decent kicker in the NFL these days--especially against us. When's the last time a kicker missed a long FG against us when the game was on the line?

Besides, bitching about this makes even LESS sense when you watch the previous 58ish minutes of the game. The defense lost this game for us hands down. The offense made a few mistakes but, when you put up 30 points, your defense CANNOT give up 33...they CANNOT! These timeouts were the right thing to do if you want to try and give yourself a chance to win at that point. The unfortunate part was we were in that position, not that we took the timeouts.
Phits
QUOTE (Rick @ Sep 16 2013, 07:01 AM) *
Absolutely was the smarter call. Allowed them to run 2 more plays where anything can happen--bad snap, mishandled ball in some way, fumble, etc. And it allowed us to take a kickoff. Again, anything could happen. Long shot? Absolutely. Likely something bad would happen in our favor? Absolutely NOT. But you can rest assured, they would have run the clock down to where the only time left was for them to kick the ball and we wouldn't get a chance no matter what.

Honestly, I'm shocked anyone would think that wasn't the RIGHT thing to do. You pretty much knew they weren't going to put the ball in the air so, unless the RB could get through the 99 guys we had in the box, there wouldn't be a big play. 2 1/2 yards doesn't mean a whole lot to a decent kicker in the NFL these days--especially against us. When's the last time a kicker missed a long FG against us when the game was on the line?

Besides, bitching about this makes even LESS sense when you watch the previous 58ish minutes of the game. The defense lost this game for us hands down. The offense made a few mistakes but, when you put up 30 points, your defense CANNOT give up 33...they CANNOT! These timeouts were the right thing to do if you want to try and give yourself a chance to win at that point. The unfortunate part was we were in that position, not that we took the timeouts.

I'm surprised that there is so much confusion with the way Chip used the time outs at the end. I agree, it was absolutely the right decision to make.
Phits
QUOTE (JeeQ @ Sep 16 2013, 01:03 AM) *
Until We...

1. ) Win A Coach's Challenge

2.) Manage Not To Waste Our Timeouts

3.) Avoid Incredibly Stupid Game-Costing Penalties

I'm officially calling it The Andy Reid Curse. Getting done in by mental mistakes is inexcusable

The fact that we had timeouts, to use, at the end of the game should nullify the AR curse.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Sep 15 2013, 10:18 PM) *
Dude was making that field goal from 46 or 49.


A kicker facing a 49+ yard field goal to win the game, knowing the other team can ice him if they have timeouts, is probably a different state of mind than a kicker facing a 46 yarder, knowing the other team can't ice him.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Sep 16 2013, 08:20 AM) *
A kicker facing a 49+ yard field goal to win the game, knowing the other team can ice him if they have timeouts, is probably a different state of mind than a kicker facing a 46 yarder, knowing the other team can't ice him.


That stuff may impact some guys. Yesterday, I don't think Novak was one of them. The guy was dead center from 40-50 all day. Chip also doesn't strike me as the type to use the ice method.
Regardless, the timeouts at the end didn't cost us the game. Penalties, drops and piss poor defense cost us the game. Leaving so much time on the clock at the end didn't necessarily help either.
TGryn
Studies have demonstrated that icing the kicker doesn't work, and I'm sure Kelly and his ST coaches are aware of that.

Agree that the moment the D allowed them in FG range, we're clutching at desperate straws no matter what way the TOs are used.
Jax
On the topic of boneheads and mistakes, let's not forget DeSean and his 15 yard penalty. He has been on the verge of about a half dozen personal fouls. Incredibly huge amount of talent and incredibly small amount of maturity. It's not like he is still a Rookie.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (TGryn @ Sep 16 2013, 12:06 PM) *
Studies have demonstrated that icing the kicker doesn't work, and I'm sure Kelly and his ST coaches are aware of that.

Agree that the moment the D allowed them in FG range, we're clutching at desperate straws no matter what way the TOs are used.


I agree that icing the kicker doesn't work, and I especially hate the practice of icing the kicker a second before the snap; you're giving a professional kicker a look at how his aimed kick will go. I do like the concept of calling a timeout once the kicker is set, to let the kicker think about it in such a situation, which I think can have a mental effect, and you're not letting him get one off - this probably is more effective in the cold. We're really talking about 'douchebag' icing vs. 'traditional' icing here.

That being said, when a kicker goes out there knowing he can't possibly get iced because we have no timeouts, I would think it helps a bit. Who knows.
Rick
QUOTE (Jax @ Sep 16 2013, 01:40 PM) *
On the topic of boneheads and mistakes, let's not forget DeSean and his 15 yard penalty. He has been on the verge of about a half dozen personal fouls. Incredibly huge amount of talent and incredibly small amount of maturity. It's not like he is still a Rookie.

Exactly. I was saying the same thing last week as well. He needs to learn how to STFU.
Rick
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Sep 16 2013, 02:42 PM) *
I agree that icing the kicker doesn't work, and I especially hate the practice of icing the kicker a second before the snap; you're giving a professional kicker a look at how his aimed kick will go. I do like the concept of calling a timeout once the kicker is set, to let the kicker think about it in such a situation, which I think can have a mental effect, and you're not letting him get one off - this probably is more effective in the cold. We're really talking about 'douchebag' icing vs. 'traditional' icing here.

That being said, when a kicker goes out there knowing he can't possibly get iced because we have no timeouts, I would think it helps a bit. Who knows.

Sorry but I'd rather take the TOs, trying to get a turnover or something (and getting the ball back (at least) on a kickoff) rather than save them for the (extremely) thin hope that icing a kicker will have any affect at all.
bwc2112
QUOTE (D Rock @ Sep 15 2013, 08:59 PM) *
Was Dandy Andy in the booth? We can't escape utter clock management stupidity to save our lives. I seriously thought that keystone cops bullshit went away with the Walrus. Coo coo cachoo mother fucker. We still can't manage a simple damn game clock.

FUCK!!!!

Strategy...don't leave home without it!http://www.wingheads.com/style_images/riven/folder_post_icons/icon8.gif
CT_Eagle
I have no problem with using the time outs at the end of the game. It seemed obvious to me that Chip was preventing SD from bleeding the clock down to a few seconds before kicking. Anything can happen on those extra plays SD was forced to run. The best outcome would be a turnover. Of course the opposite has to be considered as well. SD could have a busted a big run for a touchdown. As it turns out Chip got what he wanted, the chance to run a play after the kickoff.

Chip's clock management just prior to the 2 minute warning is a whole other issue. I think he performed poorly there. Bleeding the clock with run plays there would have been the correct thing to do.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Sep 17 2013, 10:52 AM) *
Chip's clock management just prior to the 2 minute warning is a whole other issue. I think he performed poorly there. Bleeding the clock with run plays there would have been the correct thing to do.


He actually second-guessed himself when Cataldi asked him Monday morning about that, and said perhaps it would've been better to run the clock down. I almost spit my coffee all over the dashboard. A head coach who admits he fucked up on the radio?
Rick
QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Sep 17 2013, 10:52 AM) *
Chip's clock management just prior to the 2 minute warning is a whole other issue. I think he performed poorly there. Bleeding the clock with run plays there would have been the correct thing to do.

But that isn't what this team does. Trying to do that got them into trouble last week. I say, keep doing what got you there. The defense needs to man the fuck up and make a stop.
nephillymike
Taking the timeouts was the smart thing in a situation that stupidity created.

Shouldn't have been an issue if Chip knows NFL clock Mgt 101, specifically the chapter on what to do when down three, 2:14 left with all your timeouts 1st and 10 from the 14.

If he has any clue there, this conversation never happens.

Did anyone find the situation below odd?

Novack kicks a 46 yarder to win.

The three lays before then, they run for 1, 2 and no gain.

So he goes from a 49 yarder to a 46 yarder.

It seemed like SD was playing like they were kicking a 35 yarder.

They were content to take a 46 yard attempt.

My guess is that a 46 yard FG is made less than 45% of the time,maybe as low as 40%.

They didn't seem in a hurry to increase the odds.

If anyone knows what the odds are, it would be interesting to know.

They were acting like it was a gimme and I thought it would come back to kick Sd in the ass.

I kept on looking at where they were on the field and redoing the FG math thinking my alcohol intake was messing with my Fg math.

Anyone else think this while watching?
CT_Eagle
QUOTE (Rick @ Sep 17 2013, 09:44 PM) *
But that isn't what this team does. Trying to do that got them into trouble last week. I say, keep doing what got you there. The defense needs to man the fuck up and make a stop.



If the Eagles had a decent defense it would make it easier for Chip to not worry about clock management. However, that is not the hand that Chip is playing with. This defense is horrible. Chip needs to keep that in mind going forward and manage the clock with the assumption that this defense will give up points in those situations.
D Rock
Good defense or poor. When's have a first down inside the 15, down by 3 w 2:09 left in the game . . . you run off the 9 secs and get to the 2 min warning.

Any 6 year old madden player knows to do that.

Huge kudos to Chip for owning up to it.

He's a rookie too.
Rick
QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Sep 18 2013, 08:24 AM) *
If the Eagles had a decent defense it would make it easier for Chip to not worry about clock management. However, that is not the hand that Chip is playing with. This defense is horrible. Chip needs to keep that in mind going forward and manage the clock with the assumption that this defense will give up points in those situations.

So he should change what's working on offense to fix the defense?

CT_Eagle
QUOTE (Rick @ Sep 18 2013, 04:20 PM) *
So he should change what's working on offense to fix the defense?


He should manage the game with the assets he has. Those being a productive offense and a piss poor defense. Isn't that what most coaches do?
Rick
QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Sep 18 2013, 02:17 PM) *
He should manage the game with the assets he has. Those being a productive offense and a piss poor defense. Isn't that what most coaches do?

Exactly, so why hamstring a productive offense? If they score 10 more points, they win the game just like if we get a stop on defense, we win the game.

I think it's just plain stupid to change how the offense is being run because the defense isn't getting the job done. How about adjusting on defense to get the job done?
CT_Eagle
QUOTE (Rick @ Sep 18 2013, 07:40 PM) *
Exactly, so why hamstring a productive offense? If they score 10 more points, they win the game just like if we get a stop on defense, we win the game.

I think it's just plain stupid to change how the offense is being run because the defense isn't getting the job done. How about adjusting on defense to get the job done?


Because this defense has not demonstrated that it can stop an offense. At the same time, this offense has demonstrated that it can score while running and passing the ball.

Until the defense improves, Chip is going to have to manage the clock so that he is not depending on the weakest part of his team to shut down the opposition in the closing minutes of the game. Deciding that the he could ignore the clock and rely on his defense was an error on Chip's part and he said as much post game.

Chip got 3 points passing the ball in those closing minutes. He could have just as easily gotten those 3 points running while also burning some clock time.
Rick
QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Sep 18 2013, 03:19 PM) *
Because this defense has not demonstrated that it can stop an offense. At the same time, this offense has demonstrated that it can score while running and passing the ball.

Until the defense improves, Chip is going to have to manage the clock so that he is not depending on the weakest part of his team to shut down the opposition in the closing minutes of the game. Deciding that the he could ignore the clock and rely on his defense was an error on Chip's part and he said as much post game.

Chip got 3 points passing the ball in those closing minutes. He could have just as easily gotten those 3 points running while also burning some clock time.

You're making the assumption he was ignoring the clock and relying on the defense. Why can't it be he's running his offense like he wants to? Again, why would you change what has been working so effectively for you? Makes absolutely no sense. I HATE it when coaches change what got them there. It damn near got Chip a loss last week--trying to manage the clock.

Run your offense like it's supposed to (as long as it's working). The defense has to step up. Asking the offense to change what they're doing is just ridiculous.
CT_Eagle
QUOTE (Rick @ Sep 18 2013, 10:45 PM) *
You're making the assumption he was ignoring the clock and relying on the defense. Why can't it be he's running his offense like he wants to? Again, why would you change what has been working so effectively for you? Makes absolutely no sense. I HATE it when coaches change what got them there. It damn near got Chip a loss last week--trying to manage the clock.

Run your offense like it's supposed to (as long as it's working). The defense has to step up. Asking the offense to change what they're doing is just ridiculous.


Well Chip did it your way and guess what? He lost. There is a reason the overwhelming majority of coaches would have bled the clock in that situation. Chip just learned why they bleed the clock the hard way. He could have bled the clock, still kicked the field goal and provided his defense with a better chance to force overtime. Don't take my word for it, take Chip's. He admitted he made a mistake after the game. I think you may be the only person that still thinks that was good clock management despite the obvious fact that it did not work.

We have both said the same thing for several posts now so I am going to abandon this topic now.
D Rock
QUOTE (Rick @ Sep 18 2013, 09:45 PM) *
You're making the assumption he was ignoring the clock and relying on the defense. Why can't it be he's running his offense like he wants to?

Generally, you don't change whats working on offense. But . . . It's not a story of 2 teams. It's a single team. In that specific situation (2:09 on the clock, down 3, first down at the 14 and an opponent w 3 time outs that your defense hasn't so much as slowed down all day) you gotta hit the breaks. We're not talking going into a 4 minute offense. We're just talking about letting 9 ticks go off the clock to the 2 min warning. Then, go back to doing your thing.

Generally, you don't fix what aint broke. But the defense is broke and you have to adjust IN SITUATIONS to account for reality.
Rick
I'm not talking about running the clock down in the field goal drive, I agree with that, I'm talking about slowing your offense down in general. Isn't that what Chipper was referring to when he said, "My bad," from the game?
nephillymike
QUOTE (Rick @ Sep 19 2013, 06:00 AM) *
I'm not talking about running the clock down in the field goal drive, I agree with that, I'm talking about slowing your offense down in general. Isn't that what Chipper was referring to when he said, "My bad," from the game?


Yes.

His mistake was from the 1st and 10 from the 14 with 2:29 left. and that's what he admitted to. Never mentioned slowing the offense down tfor any other point of this game.
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